Maybe I am kind of lucky in an ironic kind of way.....(about health care once again) [Archive]

gimmethesimplelife

12-5-13, 11:34pm

JaneV2.0

12-6-13, 9:26am

People are getting wise to the jacked-up prices in our system--twenty-five dollar aspirin and layers of graft at every level. But it's a slow process.

iris lilies

12-6-13, 9:42am

Yet I am surprised that dentistry is still very affordable, despite it's coverage by insurance.

We pay cash for our dental coverage and always have. It's not a big deal.

catherine

12-6-13, 9:59am

Yet I am surprised that dentistry is still very affordable, despite it's coverage by insurance.

We pay cash for our dental coverage and always have. It's not a big deal.

Yeah, I don't have dental insurance either--I'd rather pay cash. Same for vision care. How often do you have to go to the eye doctor? Maybe now I should be going more often, but as long as I have glasses and can see, I'll wait until I have some signs of something age-related like cataracts and pay cash

iris lilies

12-6-13, 10:10am

Yeah, I don't have dental insurance either--I'd rather pay cash. Same for vision care. How often do you have to go to the eye doctor? Maybe now I should be going more often, but as long as I have glasses and can see, I'll wait until I have some signs of something age-related like cataracts and pay cash

I skipped going for years, then went a couple of years in a row to get more fashionable eyeglasses. I have dry eye, but that's it. I knew that and didn't need an eye doc to tell me.

And yes, we pay out of pocket for optometry as well. Now that is something that isn't inexpensive--DH needs new glasses every 2 years and his are always $700 - $800. And he is at risk for detached retina so we keep tabs on his eyes, haha.

But I do think that for dentist and eye care, by the time we take advantage of their "no insurance cash payment" discounts, and then apply those bills to our pre-tax health care account, it may well be cheaper than insurance. My employer offers insurance but I have to pay for it.

JaneV2.0

12-6-13, 10:40am

I prefer the fee for service model for all but the most expensive treatments. That way, I'm in charge instead of having to get permission from a platoon of insurance clerks, I can choose my providers, and fire them as necessary. without interference.

ApatheticNoMore

12-6-13, 12:29pm

Yet I am surprised that dentistry is still very affordable, despite it's coverage by insurance.

We pay cash for our dental coverage and always have. It's not a big deal.

me too, I've never once opted into the dental insurance and pay out of pocket. Yea, it's no big deal. True I've never needed a crown or a root canal but I'd pay it out of pocket if I did (as hey, it's still LESS than the deductible on many health insurance plans these days! to say nothing of the out of pocket). I'd rather not deal with insurance either - why would I even want to empower those useless companies by getting a form of insurance I don't absolutely require, insurance is a scam (unfortunately for actual healthcare it's what there is).

Spartana

12-7-13, 3:45pm

Tonight I finished listing things to sell online early and have been reading posts here about healthcare. I have been trying to put myself in other people's shoes when suddenly I had an AHA moment that I may actually be kind of lucky and not since I qualify for Medicaid.

I have been hearing stories of how premiums, deductibles and copays are going up and have been reading online and in the paper how companies plan on passing more costs of insurance down to their employees. My thought is that people in general are going to get exposed now to what healthcare actually costs and it's going to create nasty surprises and leave a bitter taste in many mouths. I can understand this reaction but I'm now thinking in a way I'm lucky.

I've ALREADY been exposed to what healthcare actually costs and I've long since had the bitter aftertaste - after all, going to Mexico is nothing but a practical and workable solution I have to the above. Where I'm lucky is the utter disgust that many are expressing - been there and done that years ago. In a strange way I feel almost blessed now that I'm realizing this. I wish there were some kind of forum where I could advise people on my experiences offshoring my medical and dental - now seems like a good moment in time for this and I sure have the passion to motivate me on this one topic if nothing else.

As a side note, this is one reason I treasure being middle aged - life can be so ironic and I'm at an age where I'm seeing it and realizing this. Sure makes life interesting to have such realizations. Rob One problem with this Rob is that you are assuming that we all grew up in middle class lifestyles and always had insurance and money to pay for our medical care, and have never experienced life without it. That isn't the case for many of us. Many of us, myself included, grew up in impoverished circumstances and saw our parents or parent go without insurance or money to pay for medical care for most our lives. Living that way, and seeing the effects of it, is what has propelled us to make certain lifestyle and career choices- maybe ones we didn't really find all that attractive but would lead to a better financial and secure life - in order to make sure we aren't in that position as adults or parents ourselves. Many of us worked very hard for years and made big personal sacrifices in order to try to put us in a better position in the future (career-wise sand money wise) so that we'd have the security of health insurance coverage - or at least the money to pay for our own coverage and care. As well as the job skills to be employed in jobs that had those benefits or where we could earn enough money to fund our own coverage. So don't assume that we haven't felt your pain and understand it. Or that it hasn't influenced our behavior. Like most people, we might have preferred to follow a different, less practical, career path in our lives, but choose to follow a more pragmatic path. One that took us out of poverty and into at least working class careers.

Now the fact that coverage has or is becoming unaffordable for even the average working or middle class person is a different thing all together (something that I feel needs to be addressed). And of course I continue to feel that those who are unable to work or find work that provides enough income to cover their medical care/insurance due to circumstances beyond their control should ALWAYS be able to be count on a social safety net until they can improve their circumstances

gimmethesimplelife

12-8-13, 1:34am

One problem with this Rob is that you are assuming that we all grew up in middle class lifestyles and always had insurance and money to pay for our medical care, and have never experienced life without it. That isn't the case for many of us. Many of us, myself included, grew up in impoverished circumstances and saw our parents or parent go without insurance or money to pay for medical care for most our lives. Living that way, and seeing the effects of it, is what has propelled us to make certain lifestyle and career choices- maybe ones we didn't really find all that attractive but would lead to a better financial and secure life - in order to make sure we aren't in that position as adults or parents ourselves. Many of us worked very hard for years and made big personal sacrifices in order to try to put us in a better position in the future (career-wise sand money wise) so that we'd have the security of health insurance coverage - or at least the money to pay for our own coverage and care. As well as the job skills to be employed in jobs that had those benefits or where we could earn enough money to fund our own coverage. So don't assume that we haven't felt your pain and understand it. Or that it hasn't influenced our behavior. Like most people, we might have preferred to follow a different, less practical, career path in our lives, but choose to follow a more pragmatic path. One that took us out of poverty and into at least working class careers.

Now the fact that coverage has or is becoming unaffordable for even the average working or middle class person is a different thing all together (something that I feel needs to be addressed). And of course I continue to feel that those who are unable to work or find work that provides enough income to cover their medical care/insurance due to circumstances beyond their control should ALWAYS be able to be count on a social safety net until they can improve their circumstances

As usual, you are dead on, Spartana. I have been operating here under the assumption that most folks here have had somewhat stable middle class lives - I have been basing this on various posts that have given me clues to this since I have been here starting in 2005. Touche! You are right, I should not have made the blanket assumption that all are from this background.

Your post has made me do some thinking about my life choices and where I detoured from the road to a shot at the middle class. As I've posted, I graduated into the recession of the early nineties and by the time things had picked up, my degree was losing it's shelf life. I went into waiting tables as you'all know and during the boom I made good money but did not save much - entirely my fault. That one is all on me. What else I'll take the blame for is that I did not find the gumption to go self employed somehow from about 1998 on - with my marketing background and my ability to hustle when I want to, I could have made some good money in the early days of ebay. Or the early days of blogging. Or the early days of affiliate marketing. Or some niche in here - the fact that I did not do this is all on me. All I can say is that at this late date, in January of 2014, I am going back to the first school I went to for college back in 1985 - Phoenix College, a community college very close to downtown. It's going to be interesting to me to go back, too, as the world that I knew back in 1985 when I started school there no longer exists in so many ways. Good news going forward though is that I am finally doing something to help me deal with this world we do have now - and if I can do it self employed, to some degree on my own terms. But yeah, I should have done this way way way sooner.....

I'm going to close with - as I've said before, I love it when you respond to my posts - your posts so often make me think. Rob

lhamo

12-8-13, 2:02am

Rob, I'm very pleased to hear you are going back to school. That seems like a positive step forward for you and I hope it turns out well.

I don't know if it is something specific about Arizona, or what, but it always surprises me to hear what a hard time you have had on the job market. You strike me as a very intelligent, articulate person who cares about people and very much wants to do a good job and provide great service. I know the food service industry is challenging and that you are trying to leave it, but I keep thinking that if you could find a position as a manager at a new locovore or similar niche-type restaurant with a high end clientele that places a premium on its staff and good service you could really make a decent income. I'm not trying to dissuade you from going back to school, but I do wonder if maybe relocating and combining that with building skillsets in other areas might not be a good option. You feel like someone who would "fit" in Seattle or Portland to me, especially with the strong food cultures in both places. I know, not the cheapest cities, but there are ways to live there cheaply if you are creative, and the employment options might be better for someone with your background and general philosophy/approach.

The Washington health exchanges also seem to be some of the better run ones in the country. The site was down last night when I tried to check what coverage would cost us, but the calculator did show that as a family of 4 with 50k in income (about what we would need to draw from our nestegg to live in Seattle if we bought a house for cash), we'd only need to pay about $280/month for coverage of a family of four on a silver plan, after the tax rebates. That is HUGE news for us -- actually comparable to what we are paying now as our share of employer-subsidized insurance. Anyway, my point is that it still might be worth considering relocating as the ACA kicks in, especially if you can find a place that seems like a good fit.

Also, I know I mention him so often it probably feels like I'm on his payroll or something (I'm not), but I REALLY like a lot of Ramit Sethi's stuff about small business startups. His suggestion to forget everything else and focus on getting your first three paying customers is golden. If/when I decide to start a business, I will be using his stuff. Chris G's stuff at "The Art of Non-Conformity" is also great -- haven't read his "$100 startup" book yet, but you might want to try to find it at the library.

ApatheticNoMore

12-8-13, 3:22am

To be a middle class kid is to mostly be unaware of the issue. I have no idea whether us kids had insurance for us growing up. Good chance we did (because no real poverty and a parent in medicine) and some chance we didn't (because parents so absentminded). But then it never seemed slightly necessary then either, a doctor could be paid cash. I mean my parents were so absentminded that we didn't go to the dentist for about 6 years to give you an idea (and medical care was often as sparse after we got our childhood vacinations, but we were healthy kids). It wasn't poverty, it was, parents minds were elsewhere than on any practical task of parenting for sure! I think the not going to the dentists for 6 years gambit worked as none of us had cavities, so they saved money I guess.

Adulthood, economically adulthood is mostly a constant fight to stay middle class really, though there have been periods of respite (and yes I'm somehow unemployed in every recession).

JaneV2.0

12-8-13, 10:04am

Spartana

12-8-13, 2:04pm

People out there who exhort everybody to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, full speed ahead, man up, yadda yadda, may forget that some people suffer from depression, anxiety, energy deficits, health issues that make doing so an almost insurmountable task. Not everyone is Iron Man, which is often forgotten in this survival of the fittest paradise.I wasn't placing blame on anyone for not pulling themselves up by the boot straps or making more practical life/job choices, as crap happens in life and even the most hardworking, dedicated person who did choose a pragmatic path over following a passion can fall flat due to any number of circumstances. I was only trying to let Rob know that many of us haven't always been working/middle class people and have been in exactly his uninsured situation or our parents had. When I was a kid my Mom, once my Dad left, didn't have medical or even car insurance (or even a car or even a house - had to go live with grandma - for awhile) for many years. She struggled as a minimum wage working single mom of 3 to to just put a roof over our heads and food on the table. She eventually was able to get training (data entry operator - nothing fancy) and a modestly paid job that had insurance but that was many years later. I think that many other people on this forum have experienced the same situation in their lives and can relate to Rob and others who struggle with no insurance or who have a full time job/s that doesn't pay well enough to buy some. However, unless they had a physical or mental issue, many were probably able to make the choices to better their circumstances without having to be ironmen. Taking a few typing or auto shop classes in high school or community college might be enough to land someone a good working class job. Not a glamorous job but one that pays the bills and gives you some security. That doesn't mean it can't all be taken away from them in an economic downturn of course. And for that situation - or for those who aren't able to work because of age, disability, illness, etc... - then there should be a good safety net.

ApatheticNoMore

12-8-13, 2:33pm

I wasn't placing blame on anyone for not pulling themselves up by the boot straps or making more practical life/job choices, as crap happens in life and even the most hardworking, dedicated person who did choose a pragmatic path over following a passion can fall flat due to any number of circumstances.

yea your post was entirely reasonable. Personally, I don't even know how much of my life I did or didn't have insurance or whatever. I just know that I've always had it except when I was unemployed as a self-supporting adult. If I even was on my parents policies I'm sure I fell of at one point before I was self-supporting at full time jobs (and I wasn't in college the whole time either), but really who worries about health insurance in your late teens early 20s? Pretty much noone! That's who! It's something you worry about when you get older (ie when you might actually need health insurance). I went to the emergency room when I got a giant splinter in my foot that wouldn't come out etc.. I paid the doctor a few out of pocket visits. That was how I functioned as young adult, I still have half a mind to walk away from insurance and do that now, but that gets more and more risky as you get older.

Taking a few typing or auto shop classes in high school or community college might be enough to land someone a good working class job.

I think that more was the case then, than it is now.

People out there who exhort everybody to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, full speed ahead, man up, yadda yadda, may forget that some people suffer from depression, anxiety, energy deficits, health issues that make doing so an almost insurmountable task.

I don't know, I don't have health issues, but I've suffered from pretty much all these at one point in time myself (ok there is low energy something I've often struggled with (more in the past than now) and true chronic fatigue which is another level). I never thought even when I was chronically and deeply depressed it was a reason to not work - even though there was no doubt in my mind work was contributing to the depression :~).

JaneV2.0

12-8-13, 2:34pm

I think most people do the best they can. There may be some ne'er-do-wells and moochers, but I think they're in the minority. The line "the mass of men (sic) lead lives of quiet desperation. (What is called resignation is confirmed desperation...)" comes to mind.

Spartana

12-8-13, 2:41pm

I think that more was the case then, than it is now.

.Can't off shore auto repairs :-)! That's one thing I love about the trades (pink and blue collar alike) - they may not pay a lot, they may be physically hard or mentally unchallenging, but they can be fast (and inexpensive or even free if you do OTJT) to learn compared to a 4 year college degree, are highly transportable and are generally needed everywhere we live, and can't be off-shored. And in some cases (plumbers, auto repair, computer repair, etc...) they can even pay a lot more than a white collar job.

iris lilies

12-8-13, 4:27pm

Can't off shore auto repairs :-)! That's one thing I love about the trades (pink and blue collar alike) - they may not pay a lot, they may be physically hard or mentally unchallenging, but they can be fast (and inexpensive or even free if you do OTJT) to learn compared to a 4 year college degree, are highly transportable and are generally needed everywhere we live, and can't be off-shored. And in some cases (plumbers, auto repair, computer repair, etc...) they can even pay a lot more than a white collar job.

But the trades that are quickly learned are seldom well paid, and the competition for business or jobs is super strong.

iris lilies

12-8-13, 4:32pm

Your post has made me do some thinking about my life choices and where I detoured from the road to a shot at the middle class. As I've posted, I graduated into the recession of the early nineties ... Rob
Rob old buddy, did you know that there's a recession about every 12 -15 years?

DH and I graduated into the recession of the late 70's. Unemployment was 10%. Yes! 10%!!!! I was too clueless to be worried about getting a job and now, looking back, I understand my father's directive: you WILL take a job when it is offered. Fortunately, the job I wanted is the one I got, yay!

Oh yeah, back then, after I worked a few years, I looked to buy a little house. Interest rates were--get this Rob--14%! Someone wanted me to assume their mortgage at 14%!!!!!! I didn't buy then and waited a few years to buy a house with a mortgage at the low rate of 11%.

The bad old days--they just keep coming around.

Alan

12-8-13, 4:44pm

Rob old buddy, did you know that there's a recession about every 12 -15 years?

DH and I graduated into the recession of the late 70's. Unemployment was 10%. Yes! 10%!!!! I was too clueless to be worried about getting a job and now, looking back, I understand my father's directive: you WILL take a job when it is offered. Fortunately, the job I wanted is the one I got, yay!

Oh yeah, back then, after I worked a few years, I looked to buy a little house. Interest rates were--get this Rob--14%! Someone wanted me to assume their mortgage at 14%!!!!!! I didn't buy then and waited a few years to buy a house with a mortgage at the low rate of 11%.

The bad old days--they just keep coming around.
Gosh, how I remember those days. In 1978 my pregnant wife and I left Alaska, enroute to Ohio, with $600 in our pocket and all our possessions inside a Mazda GLC hatchback. We bought our first house in 1979 with a new baby, one $5 per hour job and a VA loan at 10%.

Times were rough.

But, you know what I learned from that? Perseverance and attitude. That makes all the difference in the world.

bae

12-8-13, 5:20pm

Alan, back about then, I travelled across the county in a U-Haul with my wife-to-be. We couldn't afford the whole U-Haul, so we rented out part of the truck to other people, and delivered their goods along the way. When we finally arrived at our destination, we had a toll bridge to cross, the SF Bay Bridge, and didn't have enough $$$, until we went through the car we were towing for loose change.

Wife didn't have a job yet, I had the barest promise of a "possibly temporary" job. And no medical insurance. No savings, lots of debt. No free cell phones either. Mortgage interest rates were 12.5%, down from 18.5% just a couple years previous.

Worked out OK.

Go figure.

Lainey

12-8-13, 6:32pm

Alan

12-8-13, 6:34pm

.... I have been operating here under the assumption that most folks here have had somewhat stable middle class lives - I have been basing this on various posts that have given me clues to this since I have been here starting in 2005.... Well, some of us experienced a lot prior to 2005. I think the point that may have been missed is that most folks created a stable, middle class life through struggle and hard work, not because they were born into comfort and prosperity.

To those of us who worked and sacrificed in order to achieve a goal, the belief that it can't be done due to one reason or another, including immediate circumstance, seems ill formed.

...Wife didn't have a job yet, I had the barest promise of a "possibly temporary" job. And no medical insurance. No savings, lots of debt. No free cell phones either. Mortgage interest rates were 12.5%, down from 18.5% just a couple years previous.

Worked out OK.

Go figure.
Doesn't surprise me. I know that, more often than not, we make our own good fortune while future observers aren't paying attention.

Alan

12-8-13, 7:03pm

Rob,
it's apparent many here don't grasp that a)2013 is not 1981...
I'm aware of that, I was a lot younger in 1981. But that aside, it's important for people to know that bad times come and go, without permanently harming the vast majority.

and b) the fickle finger of fate also impacts any one individual's success or failure. Everyone here knows of people who were and are just as smart, as hard-working, as physically and mentally healthy, who did not achieve the level of financial stability or success for all kinds of reasons.
Sure, no one level of financial stability is guaranteed, regardless of effort. I think the major point for Rob to understand is that he's not limited to his current circumstance and that it's never too late to change. I think it would be cruel to encourage him to believe otherwise.

ApatheticNoMore

12-8-13, 7:13pm

it's apparent many here don't grasp that a)2013 is not 1981

well I certainly wasn't of legal working age in 1981. So I'd say pretty much everyone who is generation X, Y, millennial erc. grasps that. I don't see that much point in pining for some great days of prosperity I've never known, look things were on a downhill slide by the 80s when I was growing up. Though I will say the U.S. economy was better in say the 90s than now. Since basically all the economic data says so, it would be a real iconoclast who would argue the contrary. Might there be a few fields that are better now than then? Sure, there's usually contrary trends within the larger trend.

b) the fickle finger of fate also impacts any one individual's success or failure. Everyone here knows of people who were and are just as smart, as hard-working, as physically and mentally healthy, who did not achieve the level of financial stability or success for all kinds of reasons.

I honestly don't get the obsession with how much of one's financial fate is due to luck versus how much is do to effort, skills etc.. It strikes me as probably not just unknown but perhaps UNKNOWABLE. Is it the need for control or what? What if your not entirely in control? :) Just whirling through the void on this spaceship earth as you are :). It's basic common sense (the simplest rationality) that if you don't apply for jobs, you won't get a job (refusal to see that is deep emotional blindness - but one can have some empathy for that too for the pain (learned helplessness etc.) even it arises out of). But nothing implies the contrary, that if you apply for jobs you will necessary get one. It is likely mathematically provable that it's not all effort and so on, it's likely provable both that it helps to be born with advantages AND that there is also degree of pure randomness (much more sophisticated rationally than just your common sense needed to prove that). But still taking steps (applying for a job or whatever) is necessary, just not necessarily sufficient.

Meanwhile saying someone who is financially successful never worked hard or sacrificed is often untrue and thus insulting, saying it's only hard work and sacrifice IMO a bridge too far (it's also quite insulting to imply a poor person never worked hard when in many cases that's not true).

JaneV2.0

12-8-13, 7:42pm

It's Calvinism. You know--the ones God smiles upon prosper.

I've managed to make a fairly comfortable life for myself, but I was not without luck along the way. A solid middle-class background, decent education, and being in the right place at the right time contributed to the mix.

flowerseverywhere

12-8-13, 8:31pm

Just got back from dinner at a friends house. Her son was there with his girlfriend. Her dad ran off with another woman leaving her and two younger sibs with her alcoholic mom and is in arrears with child support. She worked with her school guidance counselors and got into a local u. She pretty much did anything to make money. Worked weekend nights in a bar. Babysat for kids. Cleaned houses for several professors. Got her degree in special ed but no jobs so substituted while she took grad courses, kept her weekend work and cleaned and babysat where she could. Got a full time teaching job last month at a school she did a lot of substituting at, but still works Friday and Saturday at the bar to help her sibs. The economy is awful, I agree but where there is a will there is a way. There are many success stories out there.

gimmethesimplelife

12-8-13, 9:21pm

Rob,
it's apparent many here don't grasp that a)2013 is not 1981, and b) the fickle finger of fate also impacts any one individual's success or failure. Everyone here knows of people who were and are just as smart, as hard-working, as physically and mentally healthy, who did not achieve the level of financial stability or success for all kinds of reasons.

There but for the grace of God, go I.Lainey, you are dead on here, so dead on. This is not 1981. Prices are rising without wages rising to match as they did in those days. Health care was not a nightmare in 1981, finding a job was not the nightmare it is now due to technology allowing every crack and crevice of your life to be explored, and credit scores - were they even around then? I remember so many jobs I obtained just by showing up and showing some personality when I applied. My first apartment in Portland after college I just showed up and charmed the owner and boom I was in no questions asked. Many of these easier ways to meet life needs - housing, income, etc, are no longer so easy to obtain, yet it does seem to me that there are posters here not factoring these realties into their beliefs. Rob PS And yes I agree, there for the grace of God go I, I totally understand what you mean by this here.

Alan

12-8-13, 9:45pm

Lainey, you are dead on here, so dead on. This is not 1981. Prices are rising without wages rising to match as they did in those days. Health care was not a nightmare in 1981, finding a job was not the nightmare it is now ...
You may not remember this, but 1981 (actually the late 70's through the mid 80's) really sucked. Annual inflation averaging 10-13%, an unemployment rate above 10%, the cost of money peaking at over 20%, access to healthcare essentially unchanged from the present, etc.

The things you wrote are perhaps your feelings on the era, but they're not the facts. Having struggled through from about 79 to 83, I'd say our current era doesn't compare.

...and credit scores - were they even around then?
Yes they were, and mine was deplorable.

Lainey

12-9-13, 8:11pm

It's not as if these boom and bust periods happen in a vacuum. Regulations, or the lack of them, or the failure to enforce them, have a huge effect. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act absolutely was a main cause of the financial crisis in the 2000s.
To just say, oh well, it's your own fault because you're not working harder is to be deliberately blind.

ApatheticNoMore

12-9-13, 8:16pm

You can maybe contain the contagion of the boom and bust (so it doesn't threaten to collapse the entire world economy) but booms and bust they've never figured out a way to eliminate. But the Federal Reserve will eliminate them through careful monetary planning ... yea, yea (clearly not). But the gold standard would eliminate them ... yea, yea (they happened then too).

flowerseverywhere

12-9-13, 8:33pm

I honestly don't get the obsession with how much of one's financial fate is due to luck versus how much is do to effort, skills etc.. It strikes me as probably not just unknown but perhaps UNKNOWABLE.

a really interesting book on this issue read Malcolm Gladwell's " outliers". Explains a lot about how Bill Gates and The Beatles had a leg up.

One me thing I will explain, though, that no one has brought up is the cost of modern life is so much more now. Back when DH and I got married by the JP we piled our meager belongings into an old standard car and headed to California. No gps, no cell phones. We navigated by map and slept in the car. There was no internet, cable tv etc. you did not go to the grocery store and see strawberries in January, no QVC, no video games. Houses were smaller, cars less fancy. In truth we had no idea how low our standard was because our limited tv exposure on our 10" black and white tv and no internet. I honestly believe one of the problems in our society is the discontent of the masses who will never attain what is considered a modern middle class lifestyle. Heck, it was rare for kids to have their own rooms and clothes that were not handle downs, never mind their own cell phones, video games and tv's in their rooms. Vacation might have been camping if you had the money to leave town. And the way people dress on tv today. Seriously, designer shoes, the red carpet with thousand dollar gowns. Our standards now are that what is a middle class lifestyle has so much higher expectations.

gimmethesimplelife

12-9-13, 9:33pm

a really interesting book on this issue read Malcolm Gladwell's " outliers". Explains a lot about how Bill Gates and The Beatles had a leg up.

One me thing I will explain, though, that no one has brought up is the cost of modern life is so much more now. Back when DH and I got married by the JP we piled our meager belongings into an old standard car and headed to California. No gps, no cell phones. We navigated by map and slept in the car. There was no internet, cable tv etc. you did not go to the grocery store and see strawberries in January, no QVC, no video games. Houses were smaller, cars less fancy. In truth we had no idea how low our standard was because our limited tv exposure on our 10" black and white tv and no internet. I honestly believe one of the problems in our society is the discontent of the masses who will never attain what is considered a modern middle class lifestyle. Heck, it was rare for kids to have their own rooms and clothes that were not handle downs, never mind their own cell phones, video games and tv's in their rooms. Vacation might have been camping if you had the money to leave town. And the way people dress on tv today. Seriously, designer shoes, the red carpet with thousand dollar gowns. Our standards now are that what is a middle class lifestyle has so much higher expectations.I could not agree with what you have posted here more. Your post makes me think of the very first episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show - when she arrives in Minneapolis and gets her apartment through knowing Phyllis. That apartment was a mere studio apartment with a tiny closet and a very small and basic kitchen. She had that apartment and a Ford Mustang if anyone remembers from the opening credits and that was all she had/needed to live her life. Today that same lifestyle would be considered poverty living - and many in Mexico even live higher than this now. I guess my point here is that the expectations of material standards have kept increasing as have the bills of modern life. I am guilty on the cell phone one but not the cable and not the fancy clothes and I don't even have a car by choice. I agree with you completely about cars being less fancy, too. Do we really need all this technology that is optional and even standard now? It seems that with increasing material expectations, life has gotten much more complex, too.

Something I remember vividly is running across a woman at party in Portland, Oregon, when I living there after college. Someone made a snotty remark about her outfit and she ignored it and walked up to me and introduced herself and we talked for a long time. She was a character for me at the time as she told me all she needed to be happy was food, a place to sleep, and a place to create art. I still remember her to this day - meeting her had an impact on me and I think slowly led me to living a more simple life - though with some vacations from the concept during the booms since then. I sometimes think of her and wonder what happened to her. Rob

PS I came back to add that I am guilty of the strawberries in January too but they are from Mexico which I am fairly close to.....but yeah, there's a carbon footprint there, definitely.

Spartana

12-10-13, 12:03am

As usual, you are dead on, Spartana. I have been operating here under the assumption that most folks here have had somewhat stable middle class lives - I have been basing this on various posts that have given me clues to this since I have been here starting in 2005. Touche! You are right, I should not have made the blanket assumption that all are from this background.

Your post has made me do some thinking about my life choices and where I detoured from the road to a shot at the middle class. As I've posted, I graduated into the recession of the early nineties and by the time things had picked up, my degree was losing it's shelf life. I went into waiting tables as you'all know and during the boom I made good money but did not save much - entirely my fault. That one is all on me. What else I'll take the blame for is that I did not find the gumption to go self employed somehow from about 1998 on - with my marketing background and my ability to hustle when I want to, I could have made some good money in the early days of ebay. Or the early days of blogging. Or the early days of affiliate marketing. Or some niche in here - the fact that I did not do this is all on me. All I can say is that at this late date, in January of 2014, I am going back to the first school I went to for college back in 1985 - Phoenix College, a community college very close to downtown. It's going to be interesting to me to go back, too, as the world that I knew back in 1985 when I started school there no longer exists in so many ways. Good news going forward though is that I am finally doing something to help me deal with this world we do have now - and if I can do it self employed, to some degree on my own terms. But yeah, I should have done this way way way sooner.....

I'm going to close with - as I've said before, I love it when you respond to my posts - your posts so often make me think. RobThanks Rob - As always, I enjoy "talking" to you as well :-)!

And again, I wasn't making any comment about the choices other's make in life (and I personally think Rob did all the right things but things don't always go according to even the best laid plans) just saying many of us have been there, done that also at some point in our lives and can relate to the struggles others face.

Spartana

12-10-13, 12:16am

But the trades that are quickly learned are seldom well paid, and the competition for business or jobs is super strong.True they might not pay "well" but you can earn a decent living - if the jobs are available or you are willing to relocate to where they are. And many of the classes needed to get a trade education can be had free or low cost thru an ROP program or just thru a paid apprenticeship. But like any other job, you have to be flexible and willing to learn new stuff if it looks like your "skills" won't be in demand. When my Mom first got a divorce (at age 44 after being a sahm for 16 years) she worked 2 minimum wage factory jobs a few years until she got on her feet. The she just worked one day job and went to an ROP school at night for awhile to become a key-punch operator - a job that doesn't exist anymore (and none of those jobs had medical insurance either - she just went without). After her training she got a job at a big insurance company (at age 50 - I was 20 by then and out on my own but little sis was still a young-in) and learned new skills for computer data entry once the key-punch operator jobs were being replaced. She did that until she was 70 and then retired. Never made a lot of money but enough and had a good basic set of needed job skills (one of those "marketable skills" our parents always told use girls to have before quitting work and becoming dependent :-)!) that she could build on. That was the kind of thing I was talking about. A basic marketable skill set that someone - at any age - can use and build on if needed. It might not ever be "well paying" but it will probably be better than unemployment or a minimum wage job.

flowerseverywhere

12-10-13, 7:14am

Rob, there is another huge difference reading between the lines of for example Alan', Bae's, Spartana's and my posts. None of us had the "welfare" culture that I see so prevalent today. If you got pregnant, your first stop was to marry the babies father, not at the local welfare office to apply for Medicaid and food stamps. Today I knew many people who got their 99 weeks of unemployment who were older and had no intention of returning to work. I think the work the system attitude just was not there. Now, there are many posters here and many in the population who have had really bad luck. Those who qualified for food assistance or other help due to illness, then losing their job and insurance for example. I want there to be programs to help them. But I don't think it is a healthy thing as a society to say, whoopee, more people qualify for food stamps and medicaid, but rather how can our society change so that more people become independent of these programs. I don't know what happened culturally. I personally don't think it was for the good to increase the government dependency. When you are dependent on someone you are more likely not to question them- biting the hand that feeds them. Now is a time in our society where questioning the money issues, abuse of power, spying issues etc. is heading into a critical phase IMHO as we have already seen such an expansion of government along with it's power. Yet we celebrate the expansion if it benefits us personally. Just doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

ApatheticNoMore

12-10-13, 1:12pm

Spartana's advice is good advice, good as in guaranteed to pay off? Oh no, no, no, good as in I think it has a plausible chance of working. I can think of some skills one could learn that easily (maybe medical coding), but they are also probably eventually (or soon) candidates for automation (duh, automating is first for automating anything learned easily), plus I don't know what anyone will get a job in with any certainty. I have no idea why but I thought being unemployed in 11-12% unemployment (and that was not 1981, that was what the employment rate was a few years ago in California!), I'd never land another computer job. I started odd things like learning massage (which regrettably I did not complete as I found work and threw myself headlong into that). So ... I think most people interact with the job market via trial and error (that was certainly my idea behind trying to acquire multiple skills while unemployed), but the more uncertain things are the more we pretend they are certain, that we have some exact rule of thumb that will always pay off. Age old human response to uncertainty I guess :\.

I personally don't think it was for the good to increase the government dependency. When you are dependent on someone you are more likely not to question them- biting the hand that feeds them.

I like to think I try to question the bosses, capitalism, etc. :) But yea maybe.

Now is a time in our society where questioning the money issues, abuse of power, spying issues etc. is heading into a critical phase IMHO as we have already seen such an expansion of government along with it's power.

I have spent way too much mental energy wondering why people aren't outraged about things the way I am. Because I've burnt with a white hot fire over things like government trampling of civil liberties etc.. The NSA, the NDAA, assassination programs, why aren't people out in the streets, the @#$ streets! Marching in the streets NOW! How can they even vote for these @#$#! Hahaha :). But a white hot fire that only burns itself up is of no use in the end. One can only in the end conclude that one did not understand what really makes the country tick etc.. Maybe some people have always felt their civil liberties threatened (ok I mostly mean minorities here - but activists and so on I guess as well - maybe if I get shocked over some abstract civil liberties issue some hard-core activists laughs because they've felt the baton, maybe some minority laughs because they know cop oppression - no I've never been completely naive but even cynicism can hide a degree of naivety). Maybe the country has never really stood for those things anyway, and I am young (relatively) and green (and I don't just mean I vote for Jill Stein :)). Maybe people are taught obedience in far more subtle ways than I fully grasp. Maybe the entire culture trains for obedience? Maybe most people are so busy keeping their heads above water financially that they can't be bothered with such things? I don't know what that is like. I could lose my job tomorrow and be ok for a few years, sure I'd need to find work eventually, I'm not FI, I'm not rich, I am NOT the 1%, but I don't live paycheck to paycheck either. I read essays like Joe Bageants on how a people trying so hard to survive can't be concerned with say climate change, never mind if it meant human extinction. Civil liberties are probably much the same. I can be concerned. I am the remnant of what remains of the middle class (and would like to remain so, the future's no ours to see ... sing it).

Yet we celebrate the expansion if it benefits us personally. Just doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

government is good or government is evil (and with the U.S. govt. there is plenty of the latter - you will find no shortage), but does anyone foresee anarchist paradise arising in the immediate future? So beyond all that, government first and foremost exists. And so long as that is the case, one should try to make it serve one's own good, well ok (the corporations and so on do that, it would be beyond foolish for the masses not to, and at least there's a possibility they unlike the corporations might not think their good somehow involves poisoning the planet beyond survival etc.), but the idealistic (or just naive?) argue some idea of social good as well.