View Full Version : Should Snowden get amnesty
flowerseverywhere
12-15-13, 10:40am
Watching meet the press this am, very interesting debate on Snowden. Very interesting points about intrusions on privacy, surveillance, whether he had the right to release this info etc. I am mixed on my feelings on this issue., especially after watching this show
I should think not. Acting as a whistleblower is one thing, perhaps even a noble thing, but taking a collection of state secrets to other countries such as China and Russia is treasonous.
I heard recently that we're only aware of a small percentage of the info he absconded with, although I have no reason to think China and Russia doesn't have it all.
I'm tending to agree with Alan. He just went too far. (Snowden, not Alan).
I don't think he should get amnesty - but I don't think I'd deliver a guilty verdict if I was on his jury, either. The way the information was obtained does not change content of it - it seems like a lot folks are getting to take a walk for things they should not have done, but one person is being made the fall guy. That bothers me.
No. He should stand trial. If judge and jury acquit him so be it, but the court of public opinion should not be able to render that decision either way.
It seems as though he is going to change the way the social media is used, maybe?
I agree that it was too much info to the wrong countries but it certainly was a needed wakeup call for all of us. I knew that there was intelligence and very necessary but the degree surprised me.
I am of the opinion that those who feel immune to any social or moral hazard will abuse ... so I do believe that abuse of info and the dubious accuracy of the info on file may be manipulated with no recourse for many innocent individuals.
That said, intelligence is needed to manage the harmful intentions of those who have radically different views of a situation. How to strike a balance is the key question? Is a balance even possible? Who decides what is right and what is unacceptable or inappropriate? When? Where? Why?
ApatheticNoMore
12-15-13, 2:45pm
Yes he should get amnesty. No I wouldn't convict either (which is why the judge can gather info from the NSA on me making this post and choose not to let me serve on such a jury, he need not even ask if I believe in jury nullification). Btw I don't know that anyone IS doing such, just that it's possible. Secret evidence gathering is used against accused in trials and then doctored so it appears it came from other sources, that we do know now, it came out after the Snowden info.
Yes very few of the documents have been released.
That said, intelligence is needed to manage the harmful intentions of those who have radically different views of a situation. How to strike a balance is the key question? Is a balance even possible?
Well what a balance certainly is NOT is spying on everyone on the entire planet. Spying on Al Queda that's one end of the continuum, spying on everyone on the entire planet another. The latter is what they have literally chosen.
Who decides what is right and what is unacceptable or inappropriate? When? Where? Why?
In black budget agencies with secret policies, secret laws, etc., where congress doesn't even know what they are doing, accountability is near impossible yes.
What in specific has he been charged with? That is, amnesty from what?
I should think not. Acting as a whistleblower is one thing, perhaps even a noble thing, but taking a collection of state secrets to other countries such as China and Russia is treasonous.
I heard recently that we're only aware of a small percentage of the info he absconded with, although I have no reason to think China and Russia doesn't have it all.
I agree.
The thing about being a 'hero', and I realize many think of him that way is, you are only a hero if you are willing to accept the consequences. He acted as a traitor, and certainly knew he was doing wrong against his country when he did it. Now, if he truly felt the passion to 'right this wrong' then he certainly knew of the consequences. Otherwise he is just some hacker who failed to think things through. He can take the smart defense or the dumb defense, but he can't have it both ways.
Personally, I'm thankful we have those who are willing to put it on the line for truth and justice, whatever the cost (didn't S. Africa just bury such a man?!)
Whining traitors I have no patience for.
ApatheticNoMore
12-15-13, 6:57pm
If the cost of heroism (or concretely exposing government wrongdoing) is "increased" by insisting people should face whatever horrible consequences may await them for it, you will have less people becoming heroes for sure. That such risk exist for taking such actions is obvious (if I had my way it wouldn't be, but I don't run the world). But to make it mandatory ups the cost. So noone will expose anything. Great.
Nelson Mandela was of course considered a terrorist by the U.S. government until 2008. This was political (cold war politics), it always is, but it was also true he lead the military wing of the ANC which engaged in acts of terrorism (civil war? revolution? take your pick. When an organization engages in violent acts against the government, even if the government is apartheid South Africa, such governments will call it terrorism. They'll call mere property damage terrorism, but some people were killed in ANC acts - so there was actual violence). Meanwhile all Snowden did was release documents. (but what if a Snowden type had released secret documents on South Africa? Then it would be mild compared to the bombings engaged in by the ANC probably).
Mandela > Snowden is a radical position
If the cost of heroism (or concretely exposing government wrongdoing) is "increased" by insisting people should face whatever horrible consequences may await them for it, you will have less people becoming heroes for sure.
Agreed. There are plenty of anonymous heroes out there, in spite of Peggy's attempts to define rules for them.
flowerseverywhere
12-15-13, 10:29pm
What in specific has he been charged with? That is, amnesty from what?
The NSA is considering a deal where he would return the stolen documents, be allowed to return to the US and not face charges of wrongdoing. I imagine he must have signed some type of non disclosure agreement (at least I hope he had to, with his access to so many secret documents) so he has violated that.
Per an article in the guardian "Snowden is in Russia, having been granted a year-long asylum that has sparked international intrigue. In June, the Justice Department filed a criminal complaint charging the 30-year old former contractor with theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information and “wilful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person”, although he has not yet been indicted."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/nsa-edward-snowden-amnesty-documents
If the cost of heroism (or concretely exposing government wrongdoing) is "increased" by insisting people should face whatever horrible consequences may await them for it, you will have less people becoming heroes for sure. That such risk exist for taking such actions is obvious (if I had my way it wouldn't be, but I don't run the world). But to make it mandatory ups the cost. So noone will expose anything. Great.
Nelson Mandela was of course considered a terrorist by the U.S. government until 2008. This was political (cold war politics), it always is, but it was also true he lead the military wing of the ANC which engaged in acts of terrorism (civil war? revolution? take your pick. When an organization engages in violent acts against the government, even if the government is apartheid South Africa, such governments will call it terrorism. They'll call mere property damage terrorism, but some people were killed in ANC acts - so there was actual violence). Meanwhile all Snowden did was release documents. (but what if a Snowden type had released secret documents on South Africa? Then it would be mild compared to the bombings engaged in by the ANC probably).
Mandela > Snowden is a radical position
You know, there are lots of heroes out there. And they certainly know the consequences. And surprise, these consequences don't stop them. That's WHY they are heroes.
Despite the clumsy way bae attempts to pull me into his condemnation, for..whatever reason?.. a hero is someone who does something extraordinary. By definition, this person puts aside personal harm, i.e. consequence, (in whatever form) to do the heroic act. I never said it had to be public, or grandstanding, or whatever. Just selfless.
So, a person walking down the street when a child from the third floor falls safely into his arms is not a hero. It certainly is an incredibly good stroke of luck, but not heroic. Now if that same person climbed out on the ledge to save that kid, that's heroic. Do you see the difference?
Firefighters and police are more often heroic. And the firefighters and police who ran into the SECOND tower on 9/11 are more heroic than any. Do you know why?
So a hacker who sees easy opportunity to 'leak', then whines about the consequence, is maybe a rather ignorant idealist, but no hero. Especially, when he isn't hailed as the 'hero' he envisions himself as, he threatens to 'take his ball and go home'. (or to Russia) How dare we not hoist him on our shoulders and prance him around!
See, heroes really aren't in the eye of the beholder. Heroes are in their own actions, and intentions, and grace. And heroes, while maybe saddened by the consequences of their deed, face their consequences with heroics. Because, after all, isn't that the definition of a hero? Isn't that why we call them a hero?
We so casually toss this term 'hero' around to where it holds no special meaning anymore. Sports figures, or actors are 'heroes'. Um.. no. And neither is Snowdon. I wish he could be, cause the information he brought forth is important. But that information will have to stand on it's own, without the (coward) informant standing behind it.
ApatheticNoMore
12-16-13, 7:58pm
Well I think he very much took a risk to leak those documents (a huge risk in my view). So if your criteria is taking a risk which frankly I don't think benefitted him then he did (but he became famous - yea so what, I don't think many would trade positions with him just for the fame). But he didn't want to receive punishment unnecessarily. Firefighters and police don't go out seeking unnecessary punishment either, in fact they take what precautions they can to avoid it.
So a hacker who sees easy opportunity to 'leak', then whines about the consequence, is maybe a rather ignorant idealist, but no hero.
I don't think that is easy.
Especially, when he isn't hailed as the 'hero' he envisions himself as, he threatens to 'take his ball and go home'. (or to Russia) How dare we not hoist him on our shoulders and prance him around!
No he didn't want the U.S. prison system and whatever else may be involved. It has nothing to do with wanting to be hailed.
See, heroes really aren't in the eye of the beholder. Heroes are in their own actions, and intentions, and grace. And heroes, while maybe saddened by the consequences of their deed, face their consequences with heroics. Because, after all, isn't that the definition of a hero? Isn't that why we call them a hero?
That's a matyr, that's what most people call a martyr. I really don't care if one wants to hold someone as their hero or not. I tend to regard that as personal choice. However:
"They say that when it comes to choosing heroes
It's best to pick the ones who aren't around
If you choose among the living
You tend to have misgivings
When your hero lets you down
He might have a bad night in your town"
john gorka :)
But that information will have to stand on it's own, without the (coward) informant standing behind it.
so the world is black and white, people are either heroes or cowards, nothing in between (little could be further from the truth imo). Anyway, the act in my opinion took immense courage, but he's a coward for not taking the full punishment? And what are all people then who have never even been that courageous? Are they some kind of super cowards?
gimmethesimplelife
12-16-13, 8:03pm
Well, well, well.....It seems like I am going to be a sole dissenting voice here. I view Snowden as a hero. As far as I am concerned the government had no business spying on us at this level UNLESS its citizenry was warned in advance that such was taking place. Seriously, if anyone committed a crime here it is the US government and I believe Snowden's image should grace coins, stamps, and cash. Unfortunately he will have to live in exile the rest of his life - which shows how little the government respects truth, honesty, and noble behavior. I don't claim to know what Snowden's true motives were but now we see the government in a harsher light as the government deserves to be seen.
And treason? Excuse me? The only act of treason I can see here is that Mr. Snowden, if returning to the US, would face prosecution and not a ticker tape parade and the love of the media, both of which he deserves as far as I am concerned. Legally of course what he did might be illegal but the US government drew first blood. Had I children I would hold him up as an example to be looked up to and respected. Maybe not quite like the late Nelson Mandela, granted, but a hero nonetheless.
I type this knowing that more than likely not many will agree with me here, which is perfectly fine by me. I do believe that for people who have truly lived in fear of America and what it can be about, for such people, Snowden is very much revered. In my circle of shall we say economically challenged folks in Phoenix, not a one has bad words to say for him, but it is also true that not a one of these people has kind words for the US either. I'm no statistician but I'm guessing there may be a correlation here? At any rate, I respect the man and consider him a US hero for our times, technically a lawbreaker or not. For those against Mr. Snowden, your excuse for America conducting this level of spying without getting warrants is ? And the excuse for this level of spying without prior warning is ? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-16-13, 8:19pm
The NSA is considering a deal where he would return the stolen documents, be allowed to return to the US and not face charges of wrongdoing. I imagine he must have signed some type of non disclosure agreement (at least I hope he had to, with his access to so many secret documents) so he has violated that.
Per an article in the guardian "Snowden is in Russia, having been granted a year-long asylum that has sparked international intrigue. In June, the Justice Department filed a criminal complaint charging the 30-year old former contractor with theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information and “wilful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person”, although he has not yet been indicted."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/nsa-edward-snowden-amnesty-documentsI had not heard this and will do some online checking to get myself up to speed. If it is true that something can be worked out where Snowden could return without facing charges, I would take back some of my harsh words towards the US. I wonder though, even if he were allowed to return without facing prosecution, exactly how safe would his life in the US be? If I were him, I'd focus on a new life in South America and seek a book deal. With that money and the lower cost of living in South America in general, he might be set for good. Rob
Well, well, well.....It seems like I am going to be a sole dissenting voice here. I view Snowden as a hero. As far as I am concerned the government had no business spying on us at this level UNLESS its citizenry was warned in advance that such was taking place. Seriously, if anyone committed a crime here it is the US government and I believe Snowden's image should grace coins, stamps, and cash. Unfortunately he will have to live in exile the rest of his life - which shows how little the government respects truth, honesty, and noble behavior. I don't claim to know what Snowden's true motives were but now we see the government in a harsher light as the government deserves to be seen.
And treason? Excuse me? The only act of treason I can see here is that Mr. Snowden, if returning to the US, would face prosecution and not a ticker tape parade and the love of the media, both of which he deserves as far as I am concerned. Legally of course what he did might be illegal but the US government drew first blood. Had I children I would hold him up as an example to be looked up to and respected. Maybe not quite like the late Nelson Mandela, granted, but a hero nonetheless.
I type this knowing that more than likely not many will agree with me here, which is perfectly fine by me. I do believe that for people who have truly lived in fear of America and what it can be about, for such people, Snowden is very much revered. In my circle of shall we say economically challenged folks in Phoenix, not a one has bad words to say for him, but it is also true that not a one of these people has kind words for the US either. I'm no statistician but I'm guessing there may be a correlation here? At any rate, I respect the man and consider him a US hero for our times, technically a lawbreaker or not. For those against Mr. Snowden, your excuse for America conducting this level of spying without getting warrants is ? And the excuse for this level of spying without prior warning is ? Rob
Like so many other areas of discussion, I think sometimes we see only a small part of the issue. It is estimated that he stole 1.5 million documents. Do you think they all have to do with US civil liberties? Do you think there's a possibility that sensitive information regarding human assets may have been taken to China and Russia along with Angela Merkel's phone records?
I think the answer is that we don't know what he took and who he gave it to. How can we take such a small slice of his purloined secrets and declare him a hero when there's every possibility that real lives may be jeopardized as a result of his actions?
I still can't figure out why such a small amount of the data has been revealed. I suppose it could be that his handlers want to keep us in suspense for as long as possible, although I think it's equally possible that much of the information could prove disastrous once made public. It's also possible that China and Russia now have sensitive information that may be used to blackmail members of our governing bodies and those of our allies. As an example, is it possible that our recent caving on Iran sanctions were the result of their primary sponsor, Russia, exerting underhanded influence with our leaders?
I'd prefer to take a good, long time before declaring him a hero.
ApatheticNoMore
12-16-13, 9:34pm
Like so many other areas of discussion, I think sometimes we see only a small part of the issue. It is estimated that he stole 1.5 million documents. Do you think they all have to do with US civil liberties? Do you think there's a possibility that sensitive information regarding human assets may have been taken to China and Russia along with Angela Merkel's phone records?
well if so I have no conceivable way to know whether the end result of those documents having been taken to China or Russia is good or bad. What does the machination of mega-states mean to me? Especially when so much is hidden anyway? So if the only point was utter agnosticism toward things we do not know. Well, I'm fine with that.
I think the answer is that we don't know what he took and who he gave it to. How can we take such a small slice of his purloined secrets and declare him a hero when there's every possibility that real lives may be jeopardized as a result of his actions?
and perhaps there is a possibility real lives were saved, perhaps a war somewhere was prevented by them. A multipolar as opposed to U.S. dominated world might be more peaceful. One end result of Manning's war logs was to get the U.S. out of Iraq, so that's an example of a good result coming out of leaking. If I have no concrete evidence of any of this with regard to Snowden (and I don't) and at the same time if there is no evidence of lives being endangered that anyone can point to, then we're just at the point of: we don't know what we don't know.
I still can't figure out why such a small amount of the data has been revealed. I suppose it could be that his handlers want to keep us in suspense for as long as possible, although I think it's equally possible that much of the information could prove disastrous once made public.
if so then they have been very cautious with the data. I have no idea why either, maybe it's marketing, maybe they've caved into government pressure.
It's also possible that China and Russia now have sensitive information that may be used to blackmail members of our governing bodies and those of our allies.
It's also possible that the NSA has information that can be used to blackmail our governing bodies and those of our allies (who have their own democracies). But that's a conspiracy theory, you have no proof. Yes exactly. No proof. And anyone can make up a story line. Well Russ Tice seems to say some things but I'm going to take that with more than a grain of salt.
As an example, is it possible that our recent caving on Iran sanctions were the result of their primary sponsor, Russia, exerting underhanded influence with our leaders?
Then you have just given one hypothetical positive to come out of Snowden. A result of sanctions being lifted is that maybe the people of Iran get medicine and the like. Sanctions kill civilians. They die from lack of food, medicines, etc. Though the situation may not be that dire in Iran, in Iraq 1/2 million to a million people were killed by sanctions, they weren't all military by a long shot.
As an example, is it possible that our recent caving on Iran sanctions were the result of their primary sponsor, Russia, exerting underhanded influence with our leaders?
Quite possible.
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-13, 1:01am
Odd critique of Snowden by hypotheticals. Meanwhile in the ledger in the world of the things we actually know to be due to Snowden: Federal judge rules NSA program is likely unconstitutional.
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 1:23am
Odd critique of Snowden by hypotheticals. Meanwhile in the ledger in the world of the things we actually know to be due to Snowden: Federal judge rules NSA program is likely unconstitutional.This is such a breath of fresh air and relief to me that a Federal judge has ruled that the NSA program is likely unconstitutional. Especially after that ruling in another thread about the sixteen year old DUI driver. At least someone out there (as I see it anyway) with judicial powers seems to have some common sense. My question is this - if indeed this NSA activity is found unconstitutional, what restitution will the US government give to both it's citizens and permanent residents? Rob
My question is this - if indeed this NSA activity is found unconstitutional, what restitution will the US government give to both it's citizens and permanent residents? Rob
None Rob. They are not a retailer trying to pacify a disgruntled customer. Your brand loyalty is mandatory. It would probably be satisfactory if the NSA reigns in the program(s) to roughly the same level of surveillance that was claimed to be taking place in the beginning.
Teacher Terry
12-17-13, 3:13pm
Rob, I am a very liberal person that is all for helping people in need but I have noticed a theme in your posts. Mainly what I am or someone else going to get for free? You also talk excessively about moving to other countries but don't. While our country has many problems I think that we are lucky to be living here. Ask many of the immigrants who are dying to get here-literally.
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 3:39pm
None Rob. They are not a retailer trying to pacify a disgruntled customer. Your brand loyalty is mandatory. It would probably be satisfactory if the NSA reigns in the program(s) to roughly the same level of surveillance that was claimed to be taking place in the beginning.Sorry, I don't have the brand loyalty on this one. It's really disgusting to me the US government can pull stunts like this but yet we as citizens are supposed to be OK with it and not demand restitution of some kind. I truly believe America should be held accountable in some way for this unconstitutional behavior and complete and total disrespect for our rights. Rob
Sorry, I don't have the brand loyalty on this one. It's really disgusting to me the US government can pull stunts like this but yet we as citizens are supposed to be OK with it and not demand restitution of some kind. I truly believe America should be held accountable in some way for this unconstitutional behavior and complete and total disrespect for our rights. Rob
If the government were to award damages to each citizen, where would the money come from? Would it come from some dis-interested third party or would it be taken from the victim in order to give it back to them?
You do realize don't you that the government can't give you something that it hasn't taken from someone else.
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 3:45pm
Rob, I am a very liberal person that is all for helping people in need but I have noticed a theme in your posts. Mainly what I am or someone else going to get for free? You also talk excessively about moving to other countries but don't. While our country has many problems I think that we are lucky to be living here. Ask many of the immigrants who are dying to get here-literally.Hi Terry. I don't see this as getting something for free. I was raised to believe in the good of the collective whole, as is the thinking in much of Western Europe. Part of this equation is that my mother is from Austria, a country that is very prosperous, the pay is high, the taxes are high, and the government pretty much is there for you cradle to grave. To me, this is not welfare or getting something for free and since I care so much about basic human rights and basic human dignity, I have rejected much of the American line of thinking on this one. I am willing to pay high taxes to have more human rights and less 24/7 fear, to me it's a sane tradeoff. But once again, I don't see this as getting something for free - I see this as the government understanding the need to take care of the collective whole. Given that this is my line of thinking, wouldn't you say I am horribly miscast in my role as a US citizen?
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 3:47pm
If the government were to award damages to each citizen, where would the money come from? Would it come from some third party or would it be taken from the victim in order to give it back to them?
You do realize don't you that the government can't give you something that it hasn't taken from someone else.More than likely, the government would have to print yet more money and/or burrow from China. It would add to the deficit but then no one is really doing much to bring the deficit down on either side of the aisle that I can see anyway. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-13, 3:47pm
If the government were to award damages to each citizen, where would the money come from? Would it come from some third party or would it be taken from the victim in order to give it back to them?
Take it from the black budget (thanks to Snowden we actually know the cost of that). Or maybe from the savings of closing down the Utah data center? Defund the NSA.
More than likely, the government would have to print yet more money and/or burrow from China. It would add to the deficit but then no one is really doing much to bring the deficit down on either side of the aisle that I can see anyway. Rob
Perhaps that little insight should be your new life calling, financial responsibility. Oh wait, there's only one semi-organized group calling for that, and they're universally despised among liberals and identity based demographics. It's probably easier to just spend and spend and spend without worry if you don't have children or grandchildren to think about.
Nevermind. Perhaps the important thing is to demand compensation for your emotional distress before the bills come due as it's probably too much to ask that our federal government's power be limited to those things we can't do ourselves.
Teacher Terry
12-17-13, 4:00pm
Hi Rob, I think that you do live in the wrong country. My DIL is from Europe and actually much prefers it here. I am for the collective good in some ways. For instance, I am for universal health care instead of Obamacare. However, I have spent my entire working life as both a social worker and helping people with disablities return to work. Some people are very motivated to help themselves & some want something for nothing & do not want to work. Sometimes the people that can't work due to severe disability are the most motivated to work. I was not raised rich & I was very poor at one time in my life. I am not rich now. However, I think if too much is handed out then people will not work for what they need/want. I also think that as a country we have done a terrible job of emptying out the mental institutions & then wonder why we have so many homeless people-national tragedy.
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-13, 4:10pm
I think it might be wrong to expect any type of massive changes in the short term in the country and if that's what one is betting on. In the short term national politics is pretty hopeless in general (though hey good news on the civil liberties front with the Federal judge). The long term is another story.
But I don't consider residing somewhere some kind of signing on the dotted line, some kind of statement of belief systems. Living somewhere is simply living somewhere. Well we must live somewhere afterall and the whole earth is infested with countries! :)
Rob,
What *specific* personal damages have you suffered as a result of whatever Snowden revealed the government was up to?
If some court were to decide to award damages, what basis should they use for picking the amount?
Etc.
It is estimated that he stole 1.5 million documents. Do you think they all have to do with US civil liberties? Do you think there's a possibility that sensitive information regarding human assets may have been taken to China and Russia along with Angela Merkel's phone records?
I think the answer is that we don't know what he took and who he gave it to. How can we take such a small slice of his purloined secrets and declare him a hero when there's every possibility that real lives may be jeopardized as a result of his actions?
This. He could have gone to the press in a "Deep Throat" Nixon-Watergate style in order to make the public aware of what the NSA (wrongly) was doing. Yet instead he chose to use subversion, espionage, and treasonous actions by not only stealing classified US government intelligence documents, but handing those documents over to foreign governments. Information that potentially jeopardized thousands of lives and risked the very core of our intelligence community by his actions. So yes, I do feel he should be prosecuted by the US for whatever criminal charges he violated. The guy is no hero to me even though I am glad to see the NSA "called out" for their actions.
ETA: In case you young uns don't know who Deep Throat was - it was a tad before my time but I remember talking about it in school:
"Whistleblower: Deep Throat
In 1972, a person using the pseudonym “Deep Throat” leaked information about Richard Nixon’s administration to the Washington Post. 30 years later, this whistleblower was identified as former FBI Associate Director, Mark Felt. Identity aside, Mr. Felt’s bravery eventually lead to the Watergate scandal and Nixon’s subsequent disgrace and resignation from the office of President of the United States."
flowerseverywhere
12-17-13, 6:14pm
Sorry, I don't have the brand loyalty on this one. It's really disgusting to me the US government can pull stunts like this but yet we as citizens are supposed to be OK with it and not demand restitution of some kind. I truly believe America should be held accountable in some way for this unconstitutional behavior and complete and total disrespect for our rights. Rob
Wow. My first thought was worry for our troops and diplomats, especially abroad. Could any of this info bring them harm. Then I thought of info which could possibly aid terrorists as we saw 9/11 what they are capable of. And lastly I thought of damage to foreign relationships. As a law abiding tax paying citizen the last thing I thought was gaining from the mistakes of the government.
flowerseverywhere
12-17-13, 6:22pm
I am willing to pay high taxes to have more human rights and less 24/7 fear, to me it's a sane tradeoff. But once again, I don't see this as getting something for free - I see this as the government understanding the need to take care of the collective whole. Given that this is my line of thinking, wouldn't you say I am horribly miscast in my role as a US citizen?
the only miscast I see is you not minding paying high taxes when you obviously don't if you qualify as a single person for Medicaid. You don't mind others paying high taxes. That is where government money comes from.
You don't mind others paying high taxes. That is where government money comes from.
I prefer to think of all government money as coming from Alan.
I prefer to think of all government money as coming from Alan.
I've always thought that people who think they have a right to "free" money from the government need to be reminded of where it actually comes from. Anyone who wants to use my ugly face as a reminder, well, it's over there: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2QsX16fZXnHW5MTTe3hrLQbBdRlXRW hkqBORCSmTDVZzrSGzX (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Cn3O8otPeOk2KM&tbnid=CEPzxfkDDsgNTM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileyshack.wordpress.com%2Fcateg ory%2Fsmileys%2Fpointing-smileys%2F&ei=0dmwUoXqFYOHygGy_4DgAg&bvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNEVAuL-15ExFbupsjxrRNDYwFFcBA&ust=1387408186191863)
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-13, 7:15pm
These programs were never about terrorism: they’re about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They’re about power. - Edward Snowden
The really critical piece of the puzzle there is the economic spying, economic espionage is probably a major part of what is going on, that tends to get ignored if the focus is purely civil liberties (though that's important) or rivalries between governments as such. It's why they spy on Petrobas, it's what foreign countries know they must protect themselves against (though the diplomatic spying also).
The social control well maybe but I thought that was delegated to Stratfor (spying on the dissidents)
ApatheticNoMore
12-17-13, 7:15pm
I prefer to think of all government money as coming from Alan.
and he fixes the website as well, such a deal!
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:03pm
Rob,
What *specific* personal damages have you suffered as a result of whatever Snowden revealed the government was up to?
If some court were to decide to award damages, what basis should they use for picking the amount?
Etc.Bae, to answer your question, as of yet I don't know that I have suffered personal damages. You have a point there and I will give you that. My issue is with the government breaking the law by spying without getting warrants first. If the government can do this, what else can they do? I worry that with such inequality in America and with America losing it's status in the world, we may just find out and not too far off. The bit about restitution is due to the hypocrisy of the US government - if it can break laws via spying, it can come up with restitution money for each and every US citizen and permanent resident.
Is this going to happen? Of course not. But I do believe in holding institutions accountable for their actions - alone by myself I am not going to change anything, I get this, but I won't give a free verbal pass to the government for spying on us unconstitutionally. No can do. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:22pm
Hi Rob, I think that you do live in the wrong country. My DIL is from Europe and actually much prefers it here. I am for the collective good in some ways. For instance, I am for universal health care instead of Obamacare. However, I have spent my entire working life as both a social worker and helping people with disablities return to work. Some people are very motivated to help themselves & some want something for nothing & do not want to work. Sometimes the people that can't work due to severe disability are the most motivated to work. I was not raised rich & I was very poor at one time in my life. I am not rich now. However, I think if too much is handed out then people will not work for what they need/want. I also think that as a country we have done a terrible job of emptying out the mental institutions & then wonder why we have so many homeless people-national tragedy.Some people you can help and some people you can't. When I talk of the good of the collective whole, I also mean that those who get benefits should be contributing something, somehow to society - even if it is only picking up trash alongside a highway or planting trees. In Austria, to get the wonderful cradle to grave benefits, you are expected to contribute something somehow, and since I believe in the good of and in taking care of the collective whole, this makes sense to me. I don't think it's right that I will be getting Medicaid for free with no work requirements for example, and will probably end out volunteering somewhere a day a week to give something back somehow. I often find it depressing when I speak of my political views as the automatic assumption many Americans make is the stereotype of someone sitting on their butt being nothing but a leach on society - I don't believe in that, either. OTOH, I don't believe in the turbo charged winner takes all capitalism we have now. Both extremes don't work for me - I prefer a kinder, gentler system for society to run by.
What you have posted about the mental institutions being emptied out I could not agree more with. It is a national shame that so many who could be productive if placed on the right meds can not access them in this country. I'm grateful I'm not in such a situation and realize it is nothing but the stroke of luck that I am not. Once you realize something like this, and start comparison shopping other countries and what they have to offer - kind of like comparison shopping for a house or car - you start to see things very differently.
But, one last thing - I do believe that those who are capable of but refuse to contribute to society should not be getting the wonderful benefits I speak of that citizens in other countries get. If I am expected to pull my weight then I am going to expect others who are not genuinely disabled to do the same, too. So I'm really not too far off from what some of the conservatives here believe, I just have a more high tax and government being there for you from cradle to grave approach about it. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:28pm
Wow. My first thought was worry for our troops and diplomats, especially abroad. Could any of this info bring them harm. Then I thought of info which could possibly aid terrorists as we saw 9/11 what they are capable of. And lastly I thought of damage to foreign relationships. As a law abiding tax paying citizen the last thing I thought was gaining from the mistakes of the government.I don't believe what you have posted is not without merit, flowerseverywhere. I do want to pose one question to you though - if we don't hold the government accountable for its supreme (and this to me rates supreme) screw-ups, is this not giving the green light for such supreme screw-ups to continue? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:30pm
and he fixes the website as well, such a deal!Agreed. I'm glad we have Alan here as the tech guru - I don't know that anyone else here has these skills (?). At the moment I sure don't. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:35pm
the only miscast I see is you not minding paying high taxes when you obviously don't if you qualify as a single person for Medicaid. You don't mind others paying high taxes. That is where government money comes from.As I have posted before, I would GLADLY pay 50% more if it meant others did not suffer due to lack of access to healthcare in the US, such as the homeless folks Teacher Terry posted about on this thread. I realize that my taxes are quite low but I could afford to pay more sales tax and also I could be bumped a bit on my state and federal with no real losses. It would just mean that I would have to live on rice and beans and loss leaders - no biggie to me. And maybe buy a few less books a year, maybe learn basic sewing to stretch the life of my socks and such, and maybe grow more of my own food that I already am. There would actually be some positives for me in paying higher taxes, quite honestly. Rob
So why don't you give away that 50% more right now, Rob, instead of waiting for the government to take it and spend it for you? Nothing is stopping you. I am happy to provide you with a list of good recipients.
Be the change that you seek in the world!
gimmethesimplelife
12-17-13, 8:53pm
So why don't you give away that 50% more right now, Rob, instead of waiting for the government to take it and spend it for you? Nothing is stopping you. I am happy to provide you with a list of good recipients.
Be the change that you seek in the world!You have a point, Bae. I could increase my monthly donation to Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Kanab, Utah. They do such wonderfully positive work with the animals that find their way there. Rob
iris lilies
12-17-13, 9:33pm
You have a point, Bae. I could increase my monthly donation to Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Kanab, Utah. They do such wonderfully positive work with the animals that find their way there. Rob
Rob, do you see that Nanny G gets to decide WHO/what is worthy of our "help?" that we allow that entity to take so freekin' much of our money? DO YOU UNDERSTAND that Nanny does not consider Best Friends Animal Sanctuary worthy of any of your tax dollars? You opinion does not matter. One size fits all and Nanny will decide who/what get the handouts.
So that is why you need to rage against the machine of taxation. Tell them "FU NO! *I* will decide who/what is worthy of my charitable contribution!~!!"
flowerseverywhere
12-17-13, 11:46pm
You have a point, Bae. I could increase my monthly donation to Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Kanab, Utah. They do such wonderfully positive work with the animals that find their way there. Rob
how does that help the others who are suffering due to lack of healthcare like the folks teacher terry talked about that you said you would gladly pay 50% more to help? I'm lost.
gimmethesimplelife
12-18-13, 12:01am
how does that help the others who are suffering due to lack of healthcare like the folks teacher terry talked about that you said you would gladly pay 50% more to help? I'm lost.If many like me paid an extra 50% in taxes - and there are many, many, many Robs out there in my situation - that would be a pile of money that could in theory get more people covered. I'd be happy to pay more in taxes if there was a guarantee that doing so would eliminate the 24/7 fear of American health care/losing everything if you get sick that so many people are forced to live now. I don't know that such could be guaranteed - but if there was a way I'd be all for paying more to eliminate other people's constant fear. I know what it's like to have this fear. It's kind of like who will tip a server better than anyone else? Another server - because they know what a nightmare serving can be. Same concept here. I'd gladly pay more taxes to get more people covered because I know the 24/7 fear of getting sick and losing everything. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like those with power in the US know this constant fear that never goes away - this scares me as it doesn't seem like a very stable basis to build a society on, to have such day and night divisions in life experiences as to health care access. If ObamaCare does flop/fail/get repealed, I don't have much faith for US society in the future with the kind of income inequality going on now and the fact that so many are falling from the middle class on an annual basis. Not pleasant to think about but like so many other things in life, not facing it does not make it go away. Rob
So, Rob, you're not going to "live on rice and beans and loss leaders - no biggie to me. And maybe buy a few less books a year, maybe learn basic sewing to stretch the life of my socks and such, and maybe grow more of my own food that I already am." and find something useful to give that 50% to?
gimmethesimplelife
12-18-13, 12:15am
So, Rob, you're not going to "live on rice and beans and loss leaders - no biggie to me. And maybe buy a few less books a year, maybe learn basic sewing to stretch the life of my socks and such, and maybe grow more of my own food that I already am." and find something useful to give that 50% to?I'm willing to, yes, but I need to know I am helping other people get covered. Barring that, maybe I could donate to Doctors Without Borders, which is another charity I hold in high regard. Rob
I can give you a list of a couple dozen firefighters I know who are without coverage at present. I bet your local volunteer department has some in need as well. Can't be *too* hard for you to find an actual human somewhere who needs health coverage, or a local clinic that treats people for free that needs donations.
Our best local clinic does not charge you if you cannot pay, they rely on donations from those who can. I could give you *their* address.
Dig a little! Do some good!
Give the 50% to a clinic that serves the underprivileged somewhere. Betcha' that direct contribution would have a far greater impact on people's healthcare than paying it to the government.
So Rob, want some addresses of clinics?
gimmethesimplelife
12-18-13, 9:28pm
So Rob, want some addresses of clinics?There are clinics in Arizona I can donate to and there is a charity I very much approve of that tries to meet migrants in the desert and gives them water and offers them medical help - though what they can do in the middle of the desert is limited. There are plenty of such agencies right here in Arizona, Bae, and no offense, on this one I'd like to keep it local. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-18-13, 9:29pm
Give the 50% to a clinic that serves the underprivileged somewhere. Betcha' that direct contribution would have a far greater impact on people's healthcare than paying it to the government.This is quite likely true as the money would bypass layers of bureaucracy. Rob
This is quite likely true as the money would bypass layers of bureaucracy. Rob
Exactly so!
Teacher Terry
12-20-13, 12:29am
Let us face facts that he can barely support himself let alone give money to charity. I know you are trying to put him on the spot but really?
Its not personal. Rob is a smart guy who in our little community is representative of a larger group of Rob-like thinkers in our society. The options we're tossing around in here might give us all a little more perspective when looking at the big picture. And this conversation is hitting some of the real biggies!
Is a central government the best option to provide __(anything)__?
What role does charity play in our society?
Should we expect people of modest means to support charitable causes?
Should those same people even try if it means they may need support because they donated already thin resources?
And that is just some of the things this convo has morphed into, forget the OP questions about the ends justifying the means at any cost.
Teacher Terry
12-20-13, 1:22pm
I think it is stupid to support charity if you will then need it yourself. However, if you can not give monetarily you could donate your time for a good cause. Having worked with disabled people for many years suddenly acquiring a disability can turn your entire life upside down. Often by the time they find our program they have spent all their savings, lost their homes, maybe even their spouse, etc. People frequently need to be retrained for a job that they can now do and it is money well spent when they go back to work. Sometimes people are so disabled that they will never be able to work again. Yes our government has an obligation to help such people. Years ago I worked in a program with welfare recipients and while a few were generational and did not want to work most did. The program helped them gain needed work skills, provided daycare, etc to get them on their feet. After assistance these same people have their dignity back & are paying taxes. Most homeless people are in that situation because they are mentally ill and have not been able to access services.
flowerseverywhere
12-20-13, 1:31pm
Let us face facts that he can barely support himself let alone give money to charity. I know you are trying to put him on the spot but really?
In my case it is a response to seeing post after post in all kinds of topics turn into "the government should give me healthcare, the government should compensate me for snowdens actions" views while saying "Mexico is so much better, Europe is so much better that I would happily give 50% more in taxes". I have always paid a lot in taxes, being middle class. Federal, state, sales etc. but I do so willingly and there is no place I would rather be and I started with nothing, believe me. But even when I was 18 and totally in my own I paid federal taxes while working and going to school full time. So I know how hard it is. But I never once ranted about how awful this country is or what the government owed me. We are all different and entitled to our opinions. But I don't think raising federal taxes is going to help change the " I am. Owed" attitude. Nothing personal, just perceptions
ApatheticNoMore
12-20-13, 1:34pm
Is a central government the best option to provide __(anything)__?
The best or the best among bad options? I mean there's mass poverty ultimately because the job situation is so dire. I mean do we have anything resembling a jobs/industrial policy in this country? (suggested counter examples would be: Germany, Switzerland, Japan) Ok we often discuss how much work is unnecessary, it actually destroys the environment (let's say working on a BP oil rig deep sea drilling), or it produces things noone needs or "manufactured needs", a whole bunch of things that might be unnecessary in a more sustainable society. And it's gotten to the point we're sacrificing drinking water for the mere promise of jobs which is beyond moronic. OK .... and to some degree that's a global problem. But if jobs ARE the means to money in this society, we don't have a means to share the work or the wealth or no one can wrap their minds around the concept anyway* is there any plan for trying to create a society that would have such jobs? Do U.S. policy makers have a long term plan for a future with decent jobs? Oh the politicians will run on that but seriously, when you get down to brass tacks, it doesn't seem so. Real production for real needs could be the most basic source of jobs - but even the basic things we need beyond food, even if it wouldn't' provide full employment anyway, it's all outsourced!!! Is the U.S. even a country or is it a cheap labor market, where all real production is outsourced, and what remains of the country is sold off to the highest bidder?
*guaranteed minimum income, job sharing, local and worker managed production for local use etc.
What role does charity play in our society?
is charity imperfect? Does it tend to create (in my view undesirable) hierarchy where the person giving is "one-up" on the person receiving? (that is probably the difference between the terms charity and mutual aid). While I become more and more suspicious of some large charities being thoroughly corrupt, I don't think generalizes to many smaller charities. So I definitely think charity does a lot of good and that there would be a lot more suffering, poverty, want, etc. without it. Are some charities administrative costs as bad as the governments? :) (though most people have heard that they should avoid charities with high administrative costs when donating whether or not they do).
Should we expect people of modest means to support charitable causes?
Expect no. If they want to.
Should those same people even try if it means they may need support because they donated already thin resources?
generally I'd say no, but I'm sure there are decent counterexamples, generally tend to be in that type of abstract moral discussion.
Teacher Terry
12-20-13, 2:05pm
I agree with you flowerseverywhere that the government does not owe anybody anything. I love this country and can not imagine why others would want to leave. I have traveled abroad and have experienced other countries. As a society we need to help certain groups of people as mentioned above but I think that Rob could get 2 part-time jobs or work an undesirable F.T. job, etc. I have always done what I needed to do to help myself & did not expect others to. Actually though none of my friends have the " give me, give me" attitude so I really wonder how prevalent it is?
rodeosweetheart
12-20-13, 3:02pm
Back to the original post question--I checked out Wikipedia for presidential pardons and wow, it is quite a list over the years, from the Whiskey Rebellion on down. Did you know that both Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis got presidential pardons--one of them was from Jimmy Carter.
After looking at the list, he sure would fit right in. . .
gimmethesimplelife
12-20-13, 9:58pm
In my case it is a response to seeing post after post in all kinds of topics turn into "the government should give me healthcare, the government should compensate me for snowdens actions" views while saying "Mexico is so much better, Europe is so much better that I would happily give 50% more in taxes". I have always paid a lot in taxes, being middle class. Federal, state, sales etc. but I do so willingly and there is no place I would rather be and I started with nothing, believe me. But even when I was 18 and totally in my own I paid federal taxes while working and going to school full time. So I know how hard it is. But I never once ranted about how awful this country is or what the government owed me. We are all different and entitled to our opinions. But I don't think raising federal taxes is going to help change the " I am. Owed" attitude. Nothing personal, just perceptionsThis line of thinking (and I am not attacking you, you certainly have the right to think as you see fit) is a major problem I have with America. It is not about the government giving me healthcare - it is about all of us having access to healthcare, not just myself. It is also for me about not seeing all having access to healthcare as welfare - it is about society recognizing that human life is worth such access. In every other country in the developed world it is - the US is the outlier nation in which it is not. This to me is a huge issue and I do go on about it a bit, I realize this. Part of this is due to ObamaCare and all the issues pro/con surrounding it, part of it is I am 47 years old and am getting damned tired of struggling and being afraid of not being worth health care. Once again I don't feel the government owes me healthcare - I feel that to give a damn about a country, any country one finds themselves in, access to healthcare should be a right for all. This one I don't yield on but if you chose not to agree with me, that is your right. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-20-13, 10:05pm
I agree with you flowerseverywhere that the government does not owe anybody anything. I love this country and can not imagine why others would want to leave. I have traveled abroad and have experienced other countries. As a society we need to help certain groups of people as mentioned above but I think that Rob could get 2 part-time jobs or work an undesirable F.T. job, etc. I have always done what I needed to do to help myself & did not expect others to. Actually though none of my friends have the " give me, give me" attitude so I really wonder how prevalent it is?Hi Terry. I have not had any luck finding an undesirable F/T job but so that there is no confusion, I am not sitting around doing nothing. I pick up shifts for a catering temp service, I look for things to buy cheap and resell at a profit on Ebay, I secret shop, I donate plasma, and I pull in some cash every month working on GPT sites. I also am applying for F/T work, medical research studies, and focus groups. I have a fairly wide net cast out there and I do what I have to do legally to get by. I am not attacking you Terry, I just would like it understood that I am not sitting around whining and I do go out there and do what I can. About the give me attitude - the United States is the only country in the developed world where human life is not worth automatic access to healthcare via citizenship. To me access to health care is a basic human right and is not giving me anything special - in my book we are all worth this and would be in any other developed country. Rob
Rob - should food, housing, and clothing be a "right for all"? How about education? Access to childcare? Entertainment? Cell-phones?
Who pays for all these "rights"?
I mean, I understand you're kicking ass contributing to society with all that secret shopping and stuff, but some people would just sit around and coast, no?
Teacher Terry
12-21-13, 3:14pm
Rob, I do agree with you that health care should be a basic human right. However, many European countries have given their citizens so many things for free that they are now finding out it is unsustainable. I find myself really torn about human rights issues because I really believe in helping people but I also believe that people need to help themselves. If you have any type of disability you should go to your local Vocational Rehabilitation office for help finding a job-that is their mission. If you do not have a disability you should go to your local state office that helps people find jobs-here it is called Job Connect. I don't know what it is called in your state but you could google it and find out. Good luck!
Rob, I do agree with you that health care should be a basic human right.
As usual, it comes down to what is a "right", and what your "right" requires of others.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/
I think Basic health care is a basic human right. It's call Public Health. Things like cheap and accessible birth control, safe maternal care and childbirth, vaccinations, mental health care, emergency room care, routine checkups, etc.
But if you want an MRI every time you get a headache, or a hip replacement when you're 90? You're on your own.
I should think not. Acting as a whistleblower is one thing, perhaps even a noble thing, but taking a collection of state secrets to other countries such as China and Russia is treasonous.
I heard recently that we're only aware of a small percentage of the info he absconded with, although I have no reason to think China and Russia doesn't have it all.
Alan, I agree with you 100%. He is a criminal.
gimmethesimplelife
12-21-13, 9:35pm
An interesting tidbit about Snowden - I clipped an article as yet unread to the effect that Snowden was trying for asylum in Brazil - I'm thinking in this Internet connected world it could be googled for anyone interested. I'd love to see him ending out in South America like I have posted before with a book deal. Rob
An interesting tidbit about Snowden - I clipped an article as yet unread to the effect that Snowden was trying for asylum in Brazil - I'm thinking in this Internet connected world it could be googled or anyone interested. I'd love to see him ending out in South America like I have posted before with a book deal. Rob
Yes, he published an 'open letter to the people of Brazil' requesting asylum in exchange for helping the people of Brazil investigate NSA abuses against them. Sort of a 'I'll trade you what I know in exchange for your protection' deal which further illustrates his willingness to trade possible state secrets for personal gain.
You can see the letter here if you like: http://pastebin.com/2ybz27UE
gimmethesimplelife
12-21-13, 11:17pm
Yes, he published an 'open letter to the people of Brazil' requesting asylum in exchange for helping the people of Brazil investigate NSA abuses against them. Sort of a 'I'll trade you what I know in exchange for your protection' deal which further illustrates his willingness to trade possible state secrets for personal gain.
You can see the letter here if you like: http://pastebin.com/2ybz27UEUmmmm.....No. I'm still thinking Snowden is a hero for leaking what he did, especially since there has been a federal judge that has ruled that most likely the NSA has violated the Constitution. Point being: An agency of the US government drew first blood. Or put more simply, had the NSA not engaged in such acts, would we even be discussing Edward Snowden in this thread?
I will read the open letter, Thank You for link. It may very well be that you are dead on and that Snowden did a I'll give you this if you give me this. That may not make him look great, granted, but as I stated, had the NSA not drew first blood, this whole situation would not have happened. I still hold Snowden a hero (but not without some human flaws perhaps). Rob
Simply Divine
12-21-13, 11:43pm
I think Snowden is doing some good in showing us how far the surveillance goes, but as for him being a hero, that I don't believe. If he had gone straight to Iceland or another relatively neutral country after his first interview and dropped the issue while there, that would be one thing. He could have acquired amnesty much more easily if he were physically in the country; that's what Europeans have said. But he keeps going to countries like China and Russia and now Brazil. Even the Russians said they would give him amnesty only if he stopped revealing secrets about the Americans. This is the former USSR we're talking about, so I think that says something.
I don't trust this guy with my secrets; I feel he's using what he knows for his advantage -- even though I'm not 100% sure exactly what perceived advantage he thinks he has, since he's a man without a country and his only bargaining tool is information that would put him in prison for a long, long time should he be extradited.
I think it is entirely legitimate to feel both that Snowden is a traitor who should answer for his crimes and to be extremely disturbed by the activities his disclosures revealed. His actions, especially those that followed his flight from the US, are not heroic in any way that I use the word. From my POV Snowden's actions and barter offers are, in fact, cowardly. I think he probably realizes the level of media coverage would insure a more than fair trial in the US, but he continues to offer to trade information to allies and adversaries alike.
The other side of that coin is the NSA. Without justifying Snowden's actions, the cat's out of the bag and overall that is probably a net positive. Some people feel differently, but I don't want a huge, secretive, bureaucratic entity to 'protect me at all costs'. I'm willing to accept a little more risk and take on a little more personal responsibility in return for (at the very least) a more transparent and far less omnipotent government.
gimmethesimplelife
12-22-13, 11:59am
Sorry about veering off course a little here.....But there is another angle to the Snowden affair I find very interesting. It turns out that the man who broke this story is a gay man living in Brazil with his partner. He immigrated to Brazil so that he could be with his partner as Brazil would let his partner sponsor him for immigration purposes. The US as of yet does not allow this for same-sex partners though there is a movement gaining some traction to change this.
I know this doesn't have any real link to the Snowden story - I just find it an interesting angle. Interesting that a country considered as developing is ahead of us on this basic right, too.....Though I do know Brazil is not without problems of it's own. Rob
PS The man's name is Glenn Greenwald if anyone is interested in googling this. He did an interesting interview for CNN in which he stated that due to growing up gay he learned to question everything about society - I can totally relate to this so I found his interview fascinating though not covering new ground for me.
early morning
12-22-13, 1:11pm
What Gregg said. And if he had brought those issues to light ala the Pentagon Papers, and wasn't trying to trade more info in return for protection, I'd feel a lot better about him. As it it, I'm veering towards the "traitor" camp, and I'm a pretty darned liberal person overall. The NSA scares the crap out of me. But knowing some two-bit contractor can abscond with classified info is pretty scary, too.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-13, 6:17pm
PS The man's name is Glenn Greenwald if anyone is interested in googling this. He did an interesting interview for CNN in which he stated that due to growing up gay he learned to question everything about society
I pretty much came to the same hypothesis with my own thinking (nice to see it confirmed by one I guess). I mean I thought: why are many of the best social critics gay, I mean what's up with that? :) That maybe it takes a kind of outsider perspective. I highly admired such critics, it's definitely the side I fall on (anti-authoritarian, as an instinct even, but hey eventually you develop things beyond just being an instinct).
A few people who would not be supporters of gay marriage have come around to supporting it by sheer admiration of Greenwald (I've heard it voiced on his comment section). It's a round about way for sure.
I've read Greenwald on and off since Salon (the only reason to bother with that horrible website which would crash browsers), I found some of the post NSA Greenwald stuff unreadable though, intellectually difficult perhaps, but also very hard to tell technically what was really going on with the NSA.
gimmethesimplelife
12-22-13, 7:59pm
Yes, he published an 'open letter to the people of Brazil' requesting asylum in exchange for helping the people of Brazil investigate NSA abuses against them. Sort of a 'I'll trade you what I know in exchange for your protection' deal which further illustrates his willingness to trade possible state secrets for personal gain.
You can see the letter here if you like: http://pastebin.com/2ybz27UEI read your link of Snowden's open letter to the people of Brazil and it seems dead on and reasonable to me. YMMV. I find it ironic that someone who seems to support that which America stands for as you isn't bothered by spying that one Federal judge has ruled most likely violates the Constitution, and does not view the person who leaked some of the extent of the spying as a hero. I, on the other hand, question everything about America and don't have that basic loyalty but view Snowden as a hero for spilling some beans about NSA spying, and am offended by the breach of the Constitution by an agency of the Federal Government, even though much of America does not work for me.
Funky thing, politics, isn't it? That's my point here. A very funky thing politics is. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-22-13, 8:03pm
I pretty much came to the same hypothesis with my own thinking (nice to see it confirmed by one I guess). I mean I thought: why are many of the best social critics gay, I mean what's up with that? :) That maybe it takes a kind of outsider perspective. I highly admired such critics, it's definitely the side I fall on (anti-authoritarian, as an instinct even, but hey eventually you develop things beyond just being an instinct).
A few people who would not be supporters of gay marriage have come around to supporting it by sheer admiration of Greenwald (I've heard it voiced on his comment section). It's a round about way for sure.
I've read Greenwald on and off since Salon (the only reason to bother with that horrible website which would crash browsers), I found some of the post NSA Greenwald stuff unreadable though, intellectually difficult perhaps, but also very hard to tell technically what was really going on with the NSA.I have a lot of admiration for Greenwald too for leaving the US to be with his partner, putting his relationship first over country. I could honestly see myself doing the same in his shoes.....In a different way, I see Greenwald as a hero for our times, too.....Though the tide is turning with respect to GLBT rights, this is one positive thing I do see happening in the US now. Maybe in another five years or so there would be no need for Greenwald to flee to Brazil to be with his partner, and if he then chose to live in Brazil instead of the US, it would be for other reasons. We can hope, anyway. Rob
I read your link of Snowden's open letter to the people of Brazil and it seems dead on and reasonable to me. YMMV. I find it ironic that someone who seems to support that which America stands for as you isn't bothered by spying that one Federal judge has ruled most likely violates the Constitution, and does not view the person who leaked some of the extent of the spying as a hero.
Rob, that's not irony you feel, it's most likely a superficial understanding of a larger issue which feels like irony. If you'd like to take the time to research several years of my posts, you'd see that I've consistently been a proponent of limiting government's power and influence over the people. I also think you may confuse someone standing up for the promise and original intent of the United States with a blanket acceptance of the quasi fascist state it's evolving into.
If you really want to see something closer to irony, try reconciling your wish that this country provide a cradle to grave menu of financial & social benefit for you without violating your independence and privacy.
flowerseverywhere
12-23-13, 6:14am
If you really want to see something closer to irony, try reconciling your wish that this country provide a cradle to grave menu of financial & social benefit for you without violating your independence and privacy.. Now that is a real dilemma. This whole thread started because of data gathering on ordinary citizens. The first thing that happened with the healthcare act was people had to go to a website and give personal data if they wanted insurance. Medical records are electronic. Can you imagine the potential for discrimination? Already we pay for mobile tracking devices by carrying phones and send all kinds of info via email, tweets, texts, web and phone that are easy to intercept. It wasn't too long ago that you did not have to worry about everything going viral.
If you really want to see something closer to irony, try reconciling your wish that this country provide a cradle to grave menu of financial & social benefit for you without violating your independence and privacy.
But Alan, what fun is it to have cake if you can't eat it, too?
gimmethesimplelife
12-23-13, 10:34pm
Rob, that's not irony you feel, it's most likely a superficial understanding of a larger issue which feels like irony. If you'd like to take the time to research several years of my posts, you'd see that I've consistently been a proponent of limiting government's power and influence over the people. I also think you may confuse someone standing up for the promise and original intent of the United States with a blanket acceptance of the quasi fascist state it's evolving into.
If you really want to see something closer to irony, try reconciling your wish that this country provide a cradle to grave menu of financial & social benefit for you without violating your independence and privacy.I'm trying very hard to understand your last sentence Alan. I have lived in Austria once for three months amongst the people and didn't see any type of independence and privacy violations due to cradle to grave benefits. Could you be more specific? No sarcasm meant, this is just me being intrigued because I just don't understand. Also - once I lived in Canada years ago - while my parents were splitting up but realistically I was too young then to know if privacy and independence violations were taking place - and Canada does not quite offer the same cradle to grave benefits Austria does. One last note - Unemployment last month in Austria was 4.9%, lower than ours, but I admit I don't know the criteria the Austrian government uses to figure this out. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-23-13, 10:36pm
But Alan, what fun is it to have cake if you can't eat it, too?From what I have seen living in Austria amongst my relatives there for three months, these people are having their cake and eating quite bit of it, too.....Rob
From what I have seen living in Austria amongst my relatives there for three months, these people are having their cake and eating quite bit of it, too.....Rob
Well, heck, if someone else is paying for the health consequences of my lifestyle choices, why not pig out on cake? :-)
I'm gonna bake some cookies tonight, and toast Alan!
I'm trying very hard to understand your last sentence Alan. I have lived in Austria once for three months amongst the people and didn't see any type of independence and privacy violations due to cradle to grave benefits. Could you be more specific?
Sure, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently released new federal regulation that requires private health insurance companies to give the government health records of every person they insure. The most personal aspects of your life will be sent to Washington by your private insurance carrier for all your medical visits. This provides individual medical data for the federally run Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute coordinating panel of experts who will decide what treatment is allowed for individuals, based on government criteria such as cost of treatment, effectiveness as determined by the panel and your quality life years remaining.
Since you're told us many times that you're by-passing private insurance and enrolling in the free Medicaid program, I'll assume that all your most personal data will not be delayed by a middle-man and go directly from your government approved doctor to the government database. If you care anything at all about your constitutional privacy protections, wouldn't this bother you at least as much as your telephone records?
As an aside, I'm not familiar with the Austrian constitution. Does it guarantee a right to privacy of this sort? Ours does.
gimmethesimplelife
12-23-13, 11:52pm
Sure, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently released new federal regulation that requires private health insurance companies to give the government health records of every person they insure. The most personal aspects of your life will be sent to Washington by your private insurance carrier for all your medical visits. This provides individual medical data for the federally run Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute coordinating panel of experts who will decide what treatment is allowed for individuals, based on government criteria such as cost of treatment, effectiveness as determined by the panel and your quality life years remaining.
Since you're told us many times that you're by-passing private insurance and enrolling in the free Medicaid program, I'll assume that all your most personal data will not be delayed by a middle-man and go directly from your government approved doctor to the government database. If you care anything at all about your constitutional privacy protections, wouldn't this bother you at least as much as your telephone records?
As an aside, I'm not familiar with the Austrian constitution. Does it guarantee a right to privacy of this sort? Ours does.On this one I would agree with you Alan - please don't react with shock lol - but if this is true, I don't like the government having access to this information either.
About the Austrian constitution, I have an uncle in Vienna that my mother calls every year on New Year's. I can have her call and ask about any privacy guarantees. It's been since 1965 that my Mom left and I honestly don't think she'd know after all this time. Rob
About the Austrian constitution, I have an uncle in Vienna that my mother calls every year on New Year's. I can have her call and ask about any privacy guarantees. It's been since 1965 that my Mom left and I honestly don't think she'd know after all this time. Rob
No worries Rob, I could Google it and have an answer right away. I was more curious to know if you had personal knowledge, given your three month visit amongst the Austrian people, of their personal privacy expectations and guarantees since you told us that you didn't see any evidence of violations.
flowerseverywhere
12-24-13, 12:27am
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78600266/
Austria article: all is is not well in paradise of about 9 million people. People are protesting against government austerity. .
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-13, 1:02am
All is not well pretty much anywhere. Protest by itself is certainly no indication of whether things are well or not (it's just as likely a positive sign: civic engagement in a democracy). But yea austerity is attempted pretty much everywhere, is often imposed on countries, so no country is likely to be entirely what it was x years ago.
The article did say:
Austria has the European Union's second-highest economic growth rate and the bloc's lowest unemployment.
I do think one of the problems with many European countries is that they have so many very expansive social program besides just healthcare and education. Many of those things could be de-funded and more funneled into healthcare rather than say paid family leave for up to a year for both new parents, higher education, un-ending unemployment benefits, etc...
Here's just a small example of some of Sweden's family social programs:
Family Support
8. tax-free monthly payment to parents for each child; single parents receive an additional payment for each child
9. parents have a right to take a total of 12 months paid leave from work at near full wages to care for each child up to first year in school
10. subsidized child care at home or in a government day-care center
11. one year at a subsidized nursery school
12. unemployment insurance pays about 80 percent of previous income
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 1:36am
No worries Rob, I could Google it and have an answer right away. I was more curious to know if you had personal knowledge, given your three month visit amongst the Austrian people, of their personal privacy expectations and guarantees since you told us that you didn't see any evidence of violations.My experience in Austria was that your average everyday person had much more financial security then we do in the US due to cradle to grave benefits. University is free but it is quite hard to get into so you could make an argument that education is rationed. I had many people I met giving me sympathy for being American with the big reason being, as an aunt of mine said - "You really are not free. You are never that far from the street unless you are rich." This was her comment after we discussed US health care and how it works. As far as material standards of living, I would say for the professional class the standard is probably higher here but some of that is diluted as here so much is bought on credit and in Austria there is a stigma against using too much credit. As far as people like myself go - Hands down, I'm much better off there, even before taking into account socialized medicine and paid vacations of six weeks a year, and a bonus of one month's salary for Christmas. As far as intrusions into your personal life....really I didn't see any and the people I met were grateful to live there in comparison to other places. As far as personal privacy, I didn't observe or hear any complaints in regards to this, either. I will give you though that I have not spent my whole life there and don't know all the ins and outs of Austrian life, though I was not a typical tourist and stayed with family so I saw how everyday Austrians lived.
One of the hardest things I ever have done in my life, up there with quitting smoking, was getting on the plane to return to the US. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 1:39am
I do think one of the problems with many European countries is that they have so many very expansive social program besides just healthcare and education. Many of those things could be de-funded and more funneled into healthcare rather than say paid family leave for up to a year for both new parents, higher education, un-ending unemployment benefits, etc...
Here's just a small example of some of Sweden's family social programs:
Family Support
8. tax-free monthly payment to parents for each child; single parents receive an additional payment for each child
9. parents have a right to take a total of 12 months paid leave from work at near full wages to care for each child up to first year in school
10. subsidized child care at home or in a government day-care center
11. one year at a subsidized nursery school
12. unemployment insurance pays about 80 percent of previous incomeSomething I'd like to add here is that Sweden has cut back their social welfare programs over the past ten years to become more competitive globally, and this is what is left after cutbacks! It's just amazing how little Americans settle for and how few comparison shop their citizenship. I'll never understand this. Rob
I'm sure Sweden has had - or is having - some big cut backs in many areas. They have both public health care or private government subsidied healthcare (a person can have a choice if they are willing to pay more). But Sweden (land of my grandparents) is a true socialist country compared to many other European nations that have single payer or public funded healthcare. And they do have stiff taxes on everything. Bottom rate is around 30% (compared to the USA's 0%) and I think the top rate is close to 60%. And that's just income tax. Those Swedes tax the heck out of nearly everything. I spent a couple of years living in Europe (Spain, Germany, and Ireland for the most part but much of it in Sweden) and not everyone is happy about the tax rate and that many social services at all. It's a BIG issue of contention there. Back when those programs were started Sweden was a wealthy country with few social woes, no immigrants to care for, a youngish population, and very low unemployment (something like 1%). Now things have changed there and not everyone supports ALL of those social programs or the taxes to pay for them. My view is this: Having kids is a choice and one that a family should pay for themselves, not expect the tax payers to do so. Getting sick or injured is not a choice and the country should provide some basic level of healthcare for all it's citizens.
taxrates.com:
Individuals pay both national income tax and municipal income tax. In 2010, individual income tax rates in Sweden change between 54% and 61%, 57.77% being the average tax rate.
Average municipal tax rate by 2010 is 31,56% (was 31.52% previous year)
Average contribution to the Swedish Church excluding funeral fee is 0.99%
Average funeral fee is 0.22%
National Income Tax: 25%
Sweden
Income Tax Rate: 57.77% and up
Sweden
Corporate Tax Rate:26.3%
Sweden
VAT (sales tax) Rate: 25%
Dividend and interest income are taxed at a flat rate of 30%.
It's just amazing how little Americans settle for and how few comparison shop their citizenship. I'll never understand this. Rob
How able is an inner-city black youth able to "comparison shop" his citizenship, Rob? Especially with the fine education and upbringing we offer him?
Are there any interesting or significant demographic differences between the USA and the European paradises?
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 2:05am
I'm sure Sweden has had - or is having - some big cut backs in many areas. They have both public health care or private government subsidied healthcare (a person can have a choice if they are willing to pay more). But Sweden (land of my grandparents) is a true socialist country compared to many other European nations that have single payer or public funded healthcare. And they do have stiff taxes on everything. Bottom rate is around 30% (compared to the USA's 0%) and I think the top rate is close to 60%. And that's just income tax. Those Swedes tax the heck out of nearly everything. I spent a couple of years living in Europe (Spain, Germany, and Ireland for the most part but much of it in Sweden) and not everyone is happy about the tax rate and that many social services at all. It's a BIG issue of contention there. Back when those programs were started Sweden was a wealthy country with few social woes, no immigrants to care for, a youngish population, and very low unemployment (something like 1%). Now things have changed there and not everyone supports ALL of those social programs or the taxes to pay for them. My view is this: Having kids is a choice and one that a family should pay for themselves, not expect the tax payers to do so. Getting sick or injured is not a choice and the country should provide some basic level of healthcare for all it's citizens.
Sweden
Income Tax Rate: 57.77% and up
Sweden
Corporate Tax Rate:26.3%
Sweden
VAT Rate: 25%Yep, the taxes are very high. That I don't think could be argued. In Austria you will find similar taxes though I do believe the VAT is less, but not by much. The question to me is - would I be getting value from paying these much higher taxes? I can't speak for Sweden, but in the case of Austria, two thumbs up and a loud yes.
Something else that comes to mind for me here, Spartana, is several months ago when I was on one of my trips to Mexico and I had to take the shuttle down to Yuma, AZ, as there was no one in the neighborhood coop going that week. There were two Canadian women on the shuttle from Winnepeg, who were going on and on about how much cheaper things were in the US, especially a gallon of milk, which they quoted me at $4.59 in Canada, (though Canada uses metric, so I don't know if this is an approximation or not). One of them said they could get the same gallon of milk at Albertson's for $1.67. At this point I entered the conservation and said I'd be grateful for paying the $4.59 a gallon for milk as it meant my life would be worth access to health care and I wouldn't have to have that nagging 24/7 fear that so reduces the quality of life in America for so many Americans. That changed the conversation and one of the women said, yes, they needed to have good private insurance backing them to visit the US. I guess that grass is always greener yada yada yada but I'd sure consider it a better deal to pay $4.59 for a gallon of milk to get the benefits they take for granted in return. Rob
For Rob - Austria is a bit better than Sweden tax-wise but they have fewer social services:
Austria individual income tax rates for 2009 are progressive up to 50%
Income tax rates in Austria increase in progressive steps up to 50% for income exceeding €60,000. Income tax table for Austria is as follows:
Taxable Income (€) / Marginal Tax rate % / Effective Tax Rate %
€ 0 - 11,000: 0% /0%
€ 11,000 - 25,000: 36.5% /20.44%
€ 25,000 - 60,000: 43.21% /33.73%
€ 60,000 and more: 50%
VAT is 20% and corporate tax is 25%
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 2:14am
How able is an inner-city black youth able to "comparison shop" his citizenship, Rob? Especially with the fine education and upbringing we offer him?
Are there any interesting or significant demographic differences between the USA and the European paradises?Hi Bae. As far as the upbringing and education we offer inner city black youth - I don't know what to say other than I am not very proud of what most such kids receive in Detroit, or Chicago, or Baltimore, or DC, or Atlanta, or name any other large American metro area really.
As far as demographics, European kids in public schools tend to score much higher in math and reading than US kids, to the point of it being a noticeable embarrassment. The European kid is far less likely to be homeless, and is far more likely to receive more attention from their parent/parents (some European countries do have high divorce rates) due to their working fewer hours than similarly employed US adults. As to health care - US poor kids do get access to health care now via Federal and/or State programs so this one could be considered a draw and I don't have data as to positive outcomes for either system. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 2:20am
For Rob - Austria is a bit better than Sweden tax-wise but they have fewer social services:
Austria individual income tax rates for 2009 are progressive up to 50%
Income tax rates in Austria increase in progressive steps up to 50% for income exceeding €60,000. Income tax table for Austria is as follows:
Taxable Income (€) / Marginal Tax rate % / Effective Tax Rate %
€ 0 - 11,000: 0% /0%
€ 11,000 - 25,000: 36.5% /20.44%
€ 25,000 - 60,000: 43.21% /33.73%
€ 60,000 and more: 50%
VAT is 20% and corporate tax is 25%My mother's family would mostly be in the third category with an effective tax rate of 33.73%. Wow! They get so much more for their 33.73% than we do in the US for those in the higher tax brackets. I don't know what to make of this.....I am aware there have been cutbacks in Austria but no tuition higher education for trades/skills/university remains as does socialized medicine and six weeks paid vacation a year, a Christmas bonus of one month's salary, price controls over what pharmaceuticals can cost, etc. It seems as if they are getting more for the 33.73% than we are by far if we are in the upper brackets here. Rob
PS I came back to add that even though Austria has recently raised the retirement age to access state pensions, they still get full benefits before we do. It used to be 60 years of age for men and 55 for women, and last I knew it was 62 years of age for both now, with some grandfathering taking place.
I also am a bit floored at what someone making 10,000 Euros a year gets (roughly what I pull in a year translated into US dollars) - it completely floors me how much higher my quality of life would be in Austria than here in terms of what I would get in return for contributing to society. I think it's a good thing in a way that most Americans don't do this kind of comparison shopping, otherwise with the income inequalities we have in the US now there would be much more anger and outrage behind any protest efforts.
My mother's family would mostly be in the third category with an effective tax rate of 33.73%. Wow! They get so much more for their 33.73% than we do in the US for those in the higher tax brackets. I don't know what to make of this.....I am aware there have been cutbacks in Austria but no tuition higher education for trades/skills/university remains as does socialized medicine and six weeks paid vacation a year, a Christmas bonus of one month's salary, price controls over what pharmaceuticals can cost, etc. It seems as if they are getting more for the 33.73% than we are by far if we are in the upper brackets here. Rob Well if you look at our military budget you'll see where OUR tax money is going. Of course they supplied me with a job, education and income for many years so I guess I shouldn't complain too much. Oh wait... I was Homeland Security not DoD - we were cheaper :-)!
From Wikipedia:
The U.S. Department of Defense budget accounted in fiscal year 2010 for about 19% of the United States federal budgeted expenditures and 28% of estimated tax revenues. Including non-DOD expenditures, military spending was approximately 28–38% of budgeted expenditures and 42–57% of estimated tax revenues
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-13, 2:27am
having kids is a choice and one that a family should pay for themselves, not expect the tax payers to do so.
well I think the theory with family leave is that it benefits the kids, it's not about the parents (congratulations you're a special person for breeding) but for the benefit of the next generation. Sure it's rather unfair that childfree people don't get the same leave (that is of course the case in the U.S. now though on a smaller scale - parents get leave, childfree people don't) but the idea is to benefit the kids in the long run which it probably does some.
how able is an inner-city black youth able to "comparison shop" his citizenship, Rob? Especially with the fine education and upbringing we offer him?
yea really, it indicates a certain amount of privilege to even have that choice. I mean the people that have the absolute worst lifestyle in the U.S., those growing up in inner city ghettos, don't leave. Why? Lack of knowledge of alternatives, sure, but I suspect there's a lot more to it than just that.
Meanwhile as a middle class person that will likely make it no matter what happens (although one ought not say that, it tempts fate), sure I might get a little more free time elsewhere and the quality of life might be better elsewhere but that's to be weighed against everything else.
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 2:52am
Well if you look at our military budget you'll see where OUR tax money is going. Of course they supplied me with a job, education and income for many years so I guess I shouldn't complain too much. Oh wait... I was Homeland Security not DoD - we were cheaper :-)!
From Wikipedia:
The U.S. Department of Defense budget accounted in fiscal year 2010 for about 19% of the United States federal budgeted expenditures and 28% of estimated tax revenues. Including non-DOD expenditures, military spending was approximately 28–38% of budgeted expenditures and 42–57% of estimated tax revenuesUggggh! I have the sickening feeling that US military expenditures are one reason why Austria and Sweden and other European countries can be so lavish with social welfare spending - because we pay to be everyone's police dog. Uggggh! Spartana, I'm glad you were able to take advantage of the military and achieve what you have there - it just annoys me that military spending is so high and could be otherwise diverted elsewhere. Rob
At first glance I misread this subject line as "Should snowmen get amnesty" Ha ha!! Yes I think they should!
Spartana
12-24-13, 12:32pm
well I think the theory with family leave is that it benefits the kids, it's not about the parents (congratulations you're a special person for breeding) but for the benefit of the next generation. Sure it's rather unfair that childfree people don't get the same leave (that is of course the case in the U.S. now though on a smaller scale - parents get leave, childfree people don't) but the idea is to benefit the kids in the long run which it probably does some.
.I agree - I know it's for the betterment of the children and thus the betterment of the society as a whole. I just meant that when more socialized countries are facing deep economic crisis, then they need to cut some of their less important things in order to fund more important things - like health care (no one ever died if Mom or Dad didn't get to stay home from work for a year or two or three with full pay). However, as much as I value a single payer universal healthcare plan or even a public healthcare system and think we should have that, I personally would have problems living in a country like Sweden (which I love!) because of those many other benefits. I just can't accept the high tax rates (which I'd be willing to pay for medical care and to help the needy with food, housing and jobs) for the many other socialized things they have.
Spartana
12-24-13, 12:34pm
At first glance I misread this subject line as "Should snowmen get amnesty" Ha ha!! Yes I think they should!
Ha Ha - Yes, free the Snowmen!!
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 1:53pm
I agree - I know it's for the betterment of the children and thus the betterment of the society as a whole. I just meant that when more socialized countries are facing deep economic crisis, then they need to cut some of their less important things in order to fund more important things - like health care (no one ever died if Mom or Dad didn't get to stay home from work for a year or two or three with full pay). However, as much as I value a single payer universal healthcare plan or even a public healthcare system and think we should have that, I personally would have problems living in a country like Sweden (which I love!) because of those many other benefits. I just can't accept the high tax rates (which I'd be willing to pay for medical care and to help the needy with food, housing and jobs) for the many other socialized things they have.Here is a place where we differ, Spartana. I would be proud to live somewhere like Sweden and pay those taxes and have those benefits in return. Each to their own, of course, but to me this would be akin to having Platinum citizenship. Even with the cutbacks. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 1:54pm
At first glance I misread this subject line as "Should snowmen get amnesty" Ha ha!! Yes I think they should!LOL Thanks for the laugh. Rob
Here is a place where we differ, Spartana. I would be proud to live somewhere like Sweden and pay those taxes and have those benefits in return. Each to their own, of course, but to me this would be akin to having Platinum citizenship. Even with the cutbacks. Rob
Thats easy to say when you work part time and wouldn't have to pay much. What if you were making $60,000 and had to pay $30,000 in taxes. Add the VAT on top of that. It doesn't leave you much for your trouble. Someone has to provide for the services rendered.
And I'm guessing that Snowden will not live a long life. He will either get a disease or a suspicious suicide. But it will be a few years from now.
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 3:39pm
Thats easy to say when you work part time and wouldn't have to pay much. What if you were making $60,000 and had to pay $30,000 in taxes. Add the VAT on top of that. It doesn't leave you much for your trouble. Someone has to provide for the services rendered.
And I'm guessing that Snowden will not live a long life. He will either get a disease or a suspicious suicide. But it will be a few years from now.I rather suspect you have a point about Snowden and his life span. With technology as advanced as it is these days, it really does not seem possible that he would be able to hide out and remain off the radar all that long. If he knows this and made the decision to leak anyway, that makes me even more of a hero to me. That said, I don't know his thought processes and what his true motivations are/were.
About the taxes in Sweden, I suspect right now there is someone in Sweden bitching about their taxes and looking at US taxes and drooling to come here. Now that I know how easy it is to fall through the cracks in the US and how society treats you if/when you do, I would sell my soul (if I could) to switch places with the Swede wanting to come here. I know the drawbacks of the lower taxes and the kind of thinking low taxes tends to spawn. I would switch places so fast my head too would spin, not just everyone else's. Rob
iris lilies
12-24-13, 5:19pm
Austria. Austria. Austria. Our Swiss relatives consider Austria their "poor" neighbors. DH's aunt lives on the Austrian/Swiss border and he's got aunts, uncles and cousins all over that country.
Several of the Swiss cousins have been here to get their fortunes, here and Canada. But one of them already is back in Switzerland after amassing lots of wealth here in the U.S. He was uber hard working, smart, and entreprenuerial. He's now retired back in his homeland, retired in his early 50's. I didn't ask him about taxation and etc over there but clearly he saw the opportunity to be here in the good old U.S. of A.
Teacher Terry
12-24-13, 6:20pm
So I am curious Rob what is keeping you from moving to Austria? Since your Mom was from there I would think you would be able to move there.
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 7:11pm
So I am curious Rob what is keeping you from moving to Austria? Since your Mom was from there I would think you would be able to move there.Fair question. Unfortunately when my mother mother accepted US citizenship in 1969, Austria took it's citizenship away from my mother. Austria will not let you hold it's citizenship with another countries citizenship. Were my mother to apply to live there she may get a few more points that someone off the street due to knowledge of the German language and how society works but there's no guarantee she'd get in. Were I to apply to get in, my mother having been born and raised there would mean nothing. Very sad as in some European countries, I'd be able to get in based on parental or in the case of Ireland, grand-parental prior citizenship. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 7:14pm
Austria. Austria. Austria. Our Swiss relatives consider Austria their "poor" neighbors. DH's aunt lives on the Austrian/Swiss border and he's got aunts, uncles and cousins all over that country.
Several of the Swiss cousins have been here to get their fortunes, here and Canada. But one of them already is back in Switzerland after amassing lots of wealth here in the U.S. He was uber hard working, smart, and entreprenuerial. He's now retired back in his homeland, retired in his early 50's. I didn't ask him about taxation and etc over there but clearly he saw the opportunity to be here in the good old U.S. of A.This is a good country to be used this way - to amass some cash if you can - and then leave for your prior citizenship with socialized medicine included - for an early retirement with less fear and less wear and tear if you can pull it off. I have heard stories of others having done this but most of the stories I have heard of this were in the 80's when such was easier to pull off. I think it's very smart your one cousin opted to go home when he did, this sure shows brains on his part to me. Rob
Were I to apply to get in, my mother having been born and raised there would mean nothing. Very sad as in some European countries, I'd be able to get in based on parental or in the case of Ireland, grand-parental prior citizenship. Rob
Weird. You'd think European countries with wonderful social programs would throw their arms open wide for immigrants seeking to move there to take advantage of those programs!
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-13, 7:25pm
Weird. You'd think European countries with wonderful social programs would throw their arms open wide for immigrants seeking to move there to take advantage of those programs!Your point exactly, Bae. This is why I speak of places like Chile and Uruguay and other South American nations as realistic immigration options. It is not at all easy to get into these Platinum Citizenship countries so I have adjusted my expectations to accommodate this reality. And given the changes that have taken place in Uruguay the past few years, I'd put Uruguay real close to the Platinum List anyway, and Chile just reelected the former leftist President they had several years before, so I see Chile moving in a positive future direction, too. Rob
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