What's your response to the naysayers?

[Joyous_5]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that? I said that if we weren't buying so much we could afford better quality items with a longer life. And that would improve the quality of the workers who make the products. But would it put people out of jobs? Maybe. Or possibly other jobs would open up (Making products from recycled materials? Replanting forests? ) that would take the place of those at the big box store/factory?

What do you think?

[iris lilies]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that? I said that if we weren't buying so much we could afford better quality items with a longer life. And that would improve the quality of the workers who make the products. But would it put people out of jobs? Maybe. Or possibly other jobs would open up (Making products from recycled materials? Replanting forests? ) that would take the place of those at the big box store/factory?

What do you think?

I frame this discussion as "here's what I want in my life" not "here's what is good for society." It's hard for others to argue with these "I" statements:


I tire of cheap things that break easily
I want items of solid quality in my house
I don't want a lot of cheap crap sitting around that I have to dust and maintain
I dislike crowds and shopping as recreation

and my latest one:

I don't like all of the new stuff in stores, don't like the new designs, just don't like new period


When I frame this approach to shopping as a self-centered one, they can't argue with me about what I personally like

Sure, they could talk to me about how my low consumer habits work against those who are employed in the consumerist society, but since I've already framed my discussion as essentially "all about me" let 'em. My response would be: I don't care about workers and jobs. Because, you know, it's all about me and I AM a consumer, so give me what I want (see the above list.)

[SteveinMN]

Joyous, there's something "off" here.

If the question really is why you don't buy things at big-box stores, all due respect, but your response is misleading. Much of what most folks buy is the same whether it's bought at the big-box stores or smaller ones or even on-line. A refrigerator is a refrigerator, and buying it at Ma & Pa's Appliance rather than MenLowe's Depot doesn't make it any different*. Ditto with ink-jet cartridges. Or aspirin. There are some products (free-range chicken, etc.) in which it would be much harder to scale up to big-box volume levels. But that's not necessarily the fault of the big box. Pricing may be different (not necessarily in MenLowe's favor, either) and the destinations for the profits and business-support services (printing, office supplies, etc.) are different (with Ma & Pa spending far more of it locally). One store or the other may be more convenient or have customer service you prefer. One organization may treat employees better. But the product is the same. And I don't believe the people who produce any of those items will be any better treated if you don't buy the product at a big-box store -- especially since so many other people do buy there.

Now if the discussion is about worker's rights and how they're treated by management and where the profits go and the business' ties to the community, that's different. But that's business practices, not products.

Patronize the businesses you wish. I won't walk in to Hobby Lobby for anything because I find their politico-religious stand repugnant; I won't support that. I'll pay the co-op and Larry the egg farmer more for eggs than I'll pay the supermarket down the street because Larry doesn't cram birds into unliveable spaces and shove antibiotics down their throats even if they're not sick, and the co-op pays its workers a living wage even beyond what law requires them to offer; I'll support that. I will buy stuff at Target, at least in part because Target is based in Minnesota and spends a lot of money here.

Would jobs disappear if we all quit buying crap? Some, yes. But the current consumerist model has already caused jobs to disappear. How many cobblers or gas station pump attendants do you know? Jobs may be lost to lower volumes of goods sold, but other jobs might come back to attend to the maintenance or recycling of what is purchased. I don't know if anyone could say that the returning jobs are "better" than the old jobs.

And don't underestimate the generations of Americans who've grown up with the experience that nothing is worth spending a lot of money on because you'll probably grow tired of it before it wears out anyway. Or a stock market that rewards growth more than it rewards stewardship and profit margins. Those are very powerful forces to overcome in aiming for sustainability.


* There is the hanky-panky of similar-looking products which are, in fact, not similar under the skin because they're built to specs or the price stipulated by the big box. But the smart consumer knows this because part numbers and SKUs are different, and knows they're comparing apples and pears.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

well if you're buying stuff anyway, it's very simple: it's really what things like fair trade are based on. I'd rather support people producing things for a decent wage, in a way that's better for the environment, etc. And that works for chocolate :). Of course if you're not buying things at all ... well I basically don't think supporting the destruction of the world for an economic model dependent on distributing money via jobs in the exact same way we do now (as opposed to what? job sharing for one thing etc.) because it serves someone's interest and that isn't necesarily primarily the employees, is worth bothering with. Really the destruction of the world for jobs is not a good bargain. Or alternately: the jobs have already been lost, the horrible has already happened, all the stuff is actually made elsewhere anyway. At best you have some overhead and service jobs here. Job loss is policy and not just your consumer behavior.

[bae]

"but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that?

If we all stopped breeding recklessly, there'd be plenty of high-paid work for all, and we likely wouldn't make disposable junk and ruin the environment while doing so.

In the meantime, enjoy WalMart...

http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Wall-E-2.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WoGcJ1Buoms/THbwjFqdWfI/AAAAAAAAA7k/qbakoXHB0IA/S1600-R/elephant-in-the-room2.jpg

[catherine]

Really the destruction of the world for jobs is not a good bargain.

That's what I think. Can't we think creatively? So jobs are lost because people don't have to stand there all day checking out people who are buying crap?

Maybe we could become small-scale farmers, or teachers, or craftspeople, or accountants, or builders, or chefs, or doctors, or healers of the alternative kind, and then we could also pitch in to pick up garbage and paint people's houses, and serve food in ambient settings, and all this could be done locally. And if we lower our expectations about what is necessary from life we can lower our expectations about what a living wage is and then it all balances out.

I don't think there is going to be an edict that requires all big box stores to shut down, so I think we can take it all slowly and mindfully and figure it out as we go along.

ETA: I really like iris lilies no-nonsense approach, though. And I get bae's point, although I'm always reticent to jump on that bandwagon having mindlessly bred four awesome children.

[razz]

I put the argument in terms of my needs. My needs are very simple so I buy with care and rarely enter big-box stores as I rarely have the need. I have found that when an argument is made with a self-righteous or judgemental or self-justification bent to it. it irritates so I try to avoid doing so.

[Joyous_5]

I put the argument in terms of my needs. My needs are very simple so I buy with care and rarely enter big-box stores as I rarely have the need. I have found that when an argument is made with a self-righteous or judgmental or self-justification bent to it. it irritates so I try to avoid doing so.

*blushing* thanks for the reminder, Razz and Iris Lily both. I do tend to get on my high horse because I'm very passionate about this issue. But just as when arguing, it's important to use "I" statements not pointing my finger in someone else's face and wagging it.

Catherine, I love your ideas and response. Creativity will save the world! :) It's true, we need to think beyond what the norm is now.

Bae--I love that image and am forgetting what movie it's from. The Lorax?

Apetheticnomore--I was just reminded yesterday about the importance of fair trade coffee/cocoa in particular. These are both areas I can work on. I'm in love with two brands that are not fair trade (Dove for chocolate and New England Coffee) and need to work on good replacements. Any suggestions? I love the creaminess of Dove chocolate and so far Green & Black and Divine aren't cutting it.

SteveninMN--you said, "If the question really is why you don't buy things at big-box stores, all due respect, but your response is misleading. Much of what most folks buy is the same whether it's bought at the big-box stores or smaller ones or even on-line. A refrigerator is a refrigerator, and buying it at Ma & Pa's Appliance rather than MenLowe's Depot doesn't make it any different*. Ditto with ink-jet cartridges. Or aspirin. There are some products (free-range chicken, etc.) in which it would be much harder to scale up to big-box volume levels. But that's not necessarily the fault of the big box. Pricing may be different (not necessarily in MenLowe's favor, either) and the destinations for the profits and business-support services (printing, office supplies, etc.) are different (with Ma & Pa spending far more of it locally). One store or the other may be more convenient or have customer service you prefer. One organization may treat employees better. But the product is the same. And I don't believe the people who produce any of those items will be any better treated if you don't buy the product at a big-box store -- especially since so many other people do buy there."

I guess what I was saying is that I try not to buy things just to buy things. My MIL, God bless her, is a shopaholic. If she sees a "good deal" on a clock at Walmart she'll buy three because they're pretty and cheap and more is better. I am really against the big box mentality I guess (or just greediness?). Like those stupid Christmas Tree Shop commercials! I can't stand them. Two women ooohing over what a great deal this piece of junk is so let's buy eight and then cackling as they toss them into overflowing carts. Much of what is found at a big box store, in my opinion, is unnecessary. Ink cartridges, yes, needed. Fridge? Yes. But I won't buy them there because I don't vote for the type of corporation that treats employees unfairly. So you're right--it's the same product (in some cases) being sold at two different locations. But there is that added piece of what the company stands for. . . or doesn't.

[SteveinMN]

Much of what is found at a big box store, in my opinion, is unnecessary. Ink cartridges, yes, needed. Fridge? Yes. But I won't buy them there because I don't vote for the type of corporation that treats employees unfairly. So you're right--it's the same product (in some cases) being sold at two different locations. But there is that added piece of what the company stands for. . . or doesn't.
Absolutely -- we're on the same page there! I am careful about where I buy (if I have a choice) and that applies to big boxes and mom-and-pops alike.

I will buy items at Target because I can't recall buying a lot of cr@p over the decades and because they have their headquarters in this area and employ thousands and pay a lot of taxes and donate 5% of profits (and paid employee time) to the communities in which they do business. Yeah, it's a big box and the way they treat employees could be better and if they weren't in Minnesota the equation would be different. But, on balance it works for me. I won't shop at the indie pharmacy down the street from me, preferring to go to one a mile or two further away, because every time I'm in the nearby shop, I get the feeling I'm imposing on their clerks' reverie.

But, as far as buying stuff goes, my definition of simplicity implies buying less, whether it's disposable Chinese-made shoes at Payless or fair-trade made-by-oppressed-indigenous-peoples tchochkes for the coffee table. I buy what I need and apply customer-service and employee-based criteria to whatever that is.

[JaneV2.0]

Is Costco considered a "big box store?" They treat their employees well and don't sell a lot of tchotchkes. I'd shop there more often but it's somewhat out of the way.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I was just reminded yesterday about the importance of fair trade coffee/cocoa in particular. These are both areas I can work on. I'm in love with two brands that are not fair trade (Dove for chocolate and New England Coffee) and need to work on good replacements. Any suggestions? I love the creaminess of Dove chocolate and so far Green & Black and Divine aren't cutting it.

Well I was getting Kallari which I think is a great brand of dark (usually got 70%) chocolate (that dark and not bitter but creamy and sweet).
http://www.kallari.com/chocolate.html

But they stopped carrying it locally and I've not yet resorted to buying chocolate online. So I'm on the prowl again. The thing is Divine and Green & Black are the better fair trade brands out there (if you can't get Kallari), better than Endangered Species, better than some other African brand I've tried I can't remember (which was bitter and chalky, somehow got eaten anyway). I really like Green & Black milk chocolate, but I try to get the darker chocolate to put some break on the sugar addiction (I would mainline sugar in my veins if I didn't try to cut it down a bit). Meanwhile I'll keep tasting away.

[ToomuchStuff]

If we all stopped breeding recklessly, there'd be plenty of high-paid work for all, and we likely wouldn't make disposable junk and ruin the environment while doing so.



Or we would become the next China, (one child policy) ancient Greece, Nazi Germany or even the USA during the euthanasia days. That doesn't even take into account that there will still be a need for unskilled labor.

[nswef]

I use PortoRico coffee- they have fair trade, bird friendly etc. that I find is excellent. We buy about 10 lb. at once and freeze it. I prefer the Honduran french roast. I order it on line.

[Joyous_5]

Thanks for the tips on chocolate/coffee--we should start a special thread to taste test these items (!)--for research purposes, of course! I like dark chocolate (any kind but mostly buy dark because I can stop eating it more easily) but find that the natural ones I've tried are too waxy/hard and/or bitter. Please post any more suggestions of good ones to try and I'll bring my list to the store sometime and do a little sampling. After I pay for them, I mean! :)

[AnneM]

Joyous, have you ever seen Theo chocolate in stores? Theochocolate.com. It is fair trade, organic, and very, very good!

[kib]

If you want an out-there but awesome alternative view to offer people about socio-economics (oh yes, I'm sure they're lining up to hear it), check out The Venus Project. It stands the whole idea of capitalism on its head, basically stating that with our level of technological development it's not actually necessary to have an economy as we have defined it up to now. Jops? We don' need no stinkin' jops. The only flaw I really see with it is the same as the flaw with libertarianism, it assumes everyone out there is A. intelligent and B. ethical.

... eta ... well ok, the other flaw with it is that it's so totally beyond the box it questions the existence of what our society thinks of as reality. Just a small problem ...

[catherine]

If you want an out-there but awesome alternative view to offer people about socio-economics (oh yes, I'm sure they're lining up to hear it), check out The Venus Project. It stands the whole idea of capitalism on its head, basically stating that with our level of technological development it's not actually necessary to have an economy as we have defined it up to now. Jops? We don' need no stinkin' jops. The only flaw I really see with it is the same as the flaw with libertarianism, it assumes everyone out there is A. intelligent and B. ethical.

... eta ... well ok, the other flaw with it is that it's so totally beyond the box it questions the existence of what our society thinks of as reality. Just a small problem ...

Yes, kib, the Venus Project has been referenced by Charles Eisenstein.. I know it's all "out there" but someone has to go deep with the dreams, right? They said the world was flat once.

[Joyous_5]

Thanks, AnneM--I haven't heard of that brand but will look for it.

Maybe giving up the Dove chocolate isn't such a bad thing. I can't seem to keep my hands out of the bag. They are just so little and yummy!

Kib--I've not heard of this. It sounds interesting but complex!

[ApatheticNoMore]

This can be in environmental/social issues, since they are fair trade, just not frugal living:

two chocolates this week:
theo congo pili pili chilli (65% cocoa): weird, a chocolate wtih hot chilis, gives a whole new meaning to the term "hot chocolate", and it really doesn't seem hot initially but has a serious afterburn, I don't think I'm into this at all, waste of money :(
equal exchange dark chocolate orange (65% cocoa): like a darker bar form of those chocolate oranges, well 'tis the season, tasted it, I think I'm going to enjoy this one.

I don't usually buy flavored chocolate and both are sweeter than I usually get (usually get 70%). Haven't been entirely chocolate satisfied since Kallari, though Divine is my runner up.

[new2oregon]

I don't worry about the Naysayers. I chose to live a simple life. If I can buy local like a farmers market I'll support the local people. I wont drive 20 miles to save a couple dollars because it cost more for gas. All you people have some really good points. I believe in fair trade but I wouldn't change my coffee etc because of it. I read a good article about fair trade and think about it. It cost money to be labled Fair trade or organic or for a buisness to be iso 9000 certifeid so the little guys can't compete. I buy used when I can, I'll buy at wallmart if it saves me money. Walmart still provides jobs. When you get to a point in life when you buy what you need, Less trips to the store, less trash, life is just easier.

[creaker]

I think there's a bit of a disconnect with "low prices", when so many folks needing those "low prices" are rampant consumers - mainly so they can continue to buy way too much stuff. Usually the lowest price is not buying something at all.

[flowerseverywhere]

I have an avid interest in history and it is only in the last few hundred years that this type of stuff was available. While some things have enhanced our lives we truly have too much junk everywhere. Every time I see a garbage truck filled to bursting with wrappings, broken, and discarded items it makes me wonder what will happen when the landfills are full? Will all these plastics, dyes and chemicals eventually get into the water system?

So I just say I try not to buy anything I don't absolutely need, and when I do, I focus on quality. We make most of what we need, try to cook and eat as close to natural food that we can and focus on those things that will enhance our lives.

[jp1]

I guess what I was saying is that I try not to buy things just to buy things. My MIL, God bless her, is a shopaholic. If she sees a "good deal" on a clock at Walmart she'll buy three because they're pretty and cheap and more is better.

I guess my response to that is "I don't want 3 cheap clocks. I want one good clock that will last me far longer than 3 cheap clocks." Personally I hate shopping, except for food. I do go to big box stores (Costco and occasionally target) from time to time to buy things that I will be buying anyway and I can get them there at decent prices. If one looked at all of my shopping the percentage of trips to those stores would probably seem high but that would only be because I don't go shopping often.

As to concerns about treating employees with respect, from what I understand Costco treats their employees very well. Target, not as well, but better than Walmart.

Maybe it's because I'm a guy, or because I live in San Francisco, or whatever, but I don't really encounter any naysayers regarding the fact that I don't consume much. If asked I would simply say "I hate shopping." In truth my biggest discretionary spending categories are restaurant food (small chef-owned type places) and wine purchased at small winery tasting rooms. SO and I regularly go to Sonoma for quick weekend trips, sometimes by ourselves, sometimes with friends, and spending money on good food and wine shared with SO and friends is something that I truly enjoy. The fact that local people/business owners are getting my money is also a nice bonus.

Yes, food and wine get eaten/drank and then they, and the money to purchase them, are gone. But truthfully, the enjoyment I get from these purchases waaaay exceeds what I'd get from buying lots of junk at Walmart. And that junk would be gone and in a landfill in not too long anyway.

[jp1]

And thinking about clocks, I'm reminded of the clock my grandfather purchased, which my uncle now has. First off is the fact that grandpa bought it back in the 30's and my uncle still has and uses it. For his money I'm sure my grandfather's clock was a much better value than a "cheap" throwaway from a big box store, considering how long it has served its function as a clock. Second, grandpa's clock is a much cherished family heirloom. Grandpa had built a shelf over the kitchen door and then went to buy the clock (a mantle clock similar in concept to this one http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Clocks/Antique-Mantle-Clocks/SETH-THOMAS-ECLIPSE-MANTLE-CLOCK ). When he brought the clock home he found that the shelf was too close to the ceiling for it to fit. Rather than move the shelf he simply took the clock out to his workshop, got out a saw, and cut the top 2 inches off of it... Needless to say my grandma was very upset with him at the time, but now 80 years later that clock has a fantastic story behind it. No clock from walmart is likely to ever have such a good story to go with it.

[Joyous_5]

I think there's a bit of a disconnect with "low prices", when so many folks needing those "low prices" are rampant consumers - mainly so they can continue to buy way too much stuff. Usually the lowest price is not buying something at all.

Exactly--you read my mind, Creaker.

[Joyous_5]

Love the clock story, jp1. "No clock from Walmart is likely to ever have such a good story to go with it." Absolutely!

[razz]

Love the clock story, jp1. "No clock from Walmart is likely to ever have such a good story to go with it." Absolutely!
There is a problem with the story about clocks that is an example for many other things. We took an old wind-up clock in to be repaired to a certified jeweller and clocksmith and he advised that the parts for these old clocks are simply not being made and unavailable.
When I bought a new watch, he honestly advised that he could not guarantee that repairs could be done on any of the new watches beyond a decade as the parts simply are not available regardless of how much I spend on the watch.
It is a bigger story than it seems, IMO.

[catherine]

I also LOVE the clock story!!!

I'm also lovin' my new DDIL. We are trying to adapt our home so we all feel comfortable sharing spaces. My DD's old bedroom (she hasn't lived at home for years) is being turned into an upstairs study. It already has an old mission desk, with some faulty veneer we need to fix, that came from my great-aunt's. I'd say this desk is about 100 years old. I assumed that DDIL would not like this desk--it is old, and creaky, and most young people (from what I see on HGTV anyway) like new stuff, but she needs a desk because she is taking college classes this semester.

So, I told her I would go to IKEA and buy a nice, new desk that might suit her needs better. She nodded, but later on told DS that she does NOT want IKEA. She likes the old desk, despite its flaws, because it's really much higher quality.

Whew--hope for the future generations!

[jp1]

There is a problem with the story about clocks that is an example for many other things. We took an old wind-up clock in to be repaired to a certified jeweller and clocksmith and he advised that the parts for these old clocks are simply not being made and unavailable.
When I bought a new watch, he honestly advised that he could not guarantee that repairs could be done on any of the new watches beyond a decade as the parts simply are not available regardless of how much I spend on the watch.
It is a bigger story than it seems, IMO.

You're certainly correct. It's more profitable for clock manufacturers to make cheap disposable clocks that will last for maybe 10 years and then end up in a landfill. Those clocks also keep time more accurately than the clock my grandfather hacked at with a saw. And I would imagine that anyone who knows how to repair an old clock is probably nearly as old as the clock. I suppose one's preference for the old or the new one will depend on whether one values the memories of the old one, the permanence of it, etc, or whether one just wants something "cute" and functional to fill space on their wall. And the later person could be more environmentally efficient by just replacing the works of the walmart clock when they stop functioning. Every clock I've looked at lately appears to have an identical movement in it, so I would assume it wouldn't be too tough to replace, thus minimizing landfill waste. Personally I'd take my grandfather's clock any day of the week. But that doesn't make me more "right" than the walmart clock lover, I just have different priorities and tastes.

[TxZen]

I don't give 'em an answer. I do my thing and move on. :)