View Full Version : I'm losing a lot of faith here.....
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 5:47am
I am back after having taken some time unplugged from the Internet....and I'm finding myself losing faith very rapidly in ObamaCare, at least the expanded Medicaid part of it. I can't really talk for the part of it involving premiums and tax credits and the exchanges as this has not been where I have been directed to.
To summarize, it's about time I heard something, anything at all. I have applied once over the phone and heard nothing (but was told I'd get a letter in two to three weeks which never materialized). This was during the first week of October.
In November, I went to a community navigator, and I thought that would solve it. I have heard nothing there either. Tonight out of desperation, I went to heathearizona.com to apply for Medicaid and really lost a lot of faith when I could not be verified by my social security number. This perplexes me, am I no longer a citizen somehow?
I'm just down. I have put my heart and soul into supporting ObamaCare and now I feel like I am at square one - my life is not worth health care once again. I'm rapidly losing a lot of faith here. But I also wish everyone a great New Year and hopefully, this will all sort itself out somehow. I just have issues with being left in the lurch not knowing. Rob
Rob, I don't know what to tell you. If it's any consolation, consider the millions of people who have health insurance for themselves and their families today, but will be without tomorrow due to the Affordable Care Act. You're not being singled out.
flowerseverywhere
12-31-13, 11:10am
did your state add workers to handle the increased workflow? I have a sib and a friend who work in benefits and every day is very difficult for them. For all the nice people they work with they have people who call yelling at them because benefits were cut (they have to calmly say they can only follow the laws), deal with notices from child protective, jails etc. and adjust benefits to meet the needs and also they have to deal with reams of paperwork that beneficiaries have to fill out. It is really a hard job. Add to that the confusion that people have had even sorting through the truth of the law with all the propaganda out there and it almost is a perfect storm.
SteveinMN
12-31-13, 11:16am
Rob, I am a huge supporter of universal health care. I do believe it is one of the things civilized governments provide for their citizens.
But I have to say that the entire rollout of ACA has been botched. The decision-making process was rushed, with laws in place before the process was developed. Communication has been poor (and, in some cases, loudly incorrect). And there does not seem to be anyone in charge of making sure all the moving parts engaged smoothly. For the vast majority of those covered, though, even this is better than what existed before.
Yet a very small part of me hopes that ACA -- in its present form -- buckles under its own weight and that we choose to address universal health care the only way that makes sense -- getting profit out of the critical path by having the government manage the program. Given all the people who don't believe the "gummint" should be in the health-care business, I'm surprised there haven't been marches on Washington full of people who've rejected Medicare in favor of paying their own way, or well-funded PACs urging people to pass on their VA benefits. Puzzling. Having the government provide health coverage gets the profit factor out of the equation, it can help address the inconsistency of promoting good health and products (tobacco, sugar, HFCS, etc.) which run counter to that, and it gives one party the leverage to negotiate with drug companies and providers.
Which of these don't we want?
catherine
12-31-13, 11:25am
I am one who was so glad to see SOME change, believing some movement in the right direction is better than nothing.. but I'm also disappointed. Starting tomorrow, people who fail to sign up for some insurance are subject to a penalty--I'm for some kind of "socialized" medicine, but that being said, I also believe in the freedom to choose for oneself whether or not to get health insurance.
Float On
12-31-13, 11:36am
I opted to take the fine this first year. Haven't even bothered to look at the website. I think they'll need at least a year to get everything sorted out and I don't need the stress of the application process with everything else I have going on right now. Next year I plan to look for full-time employment after the kids know what colleges they'll be going to...maybe that job will provide insurance.
iris lilies
12-31-13, 11:59am
I opted to take the fine this first year. Haven't even bothered to look at the website. I think they'll need at least a year to get everything sorted out and I don't need the stress of the application process with everything else I have going on right now. Next year I plan to look for full-time employment after the kids know what colleges they'll be going to...maybe that job will provide insurance.
I think that's a good strategy, and I woulnd't even be surprised if the fine is lifted due to logistical problems of the Obamacare roll-out.
Yossarian
12-31-13, 11:59am
full of people who've rejected Medicare in favor of paying their own way
How does one do that? Can I really send a note to the IRS saying I'm not going to pay Medicare taxes and will pay my own way?
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 2:12pm
I think that's a good strategy, and I woulnd't even be surprised if the fine is lifted due to logistical problems of the Obamacare roll-out.I hope so. I don't even know if my application is in the system and I can't find out as the system in Arizona no longer recognizes my SS number. The idea of calling in to find anything out makes me want to run down to Mexico and park it on SOMA for awhile to chill - I know of people who do this when America becomes too much for them. Not a good answer in my book as Soma is habit forming and I've got enough problems as it is, just like most of us. But I can sure see the appeal in doing this.....at this point I don't feel I can trust anything told to me over the phone or via any other communication so it's kind of a moot point to bother calling and being on hold for aeons only to get an overworked person I feel sorry for that may say whatever they have to to get me off the phone to keep their efficiency scores up in a bid to keep their insurance as long as they can. Maybe Float On has a good point - pay the fine and avoid the insanity, and in my case I have Mexico to go to unless it's something like a heart attack or stroke. And I think you have a point Iris, there may be such an uproar that the $95 first year fee may be waived anyway. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 2:15pm
did your state add workers to handle the increased workflow? I have a sib and a friend who work in benefits and every day is very difficult for them. For all the nice people they work with they have people who call yelling at them because benefits were cut (they have to calmly say they can only follow the laws), deal with notices from child protective, jails etc. and adjust benefits to meet the needs and also they have to deal with reams of paperwork that beneficiaries have to fill out. It is really a hard job. Add to that the confusion that people have had even sorting through the truth of the law with all the propaganda out there and it almost is a perfect storm.I agree. That job must be an absolute nightmare now and these people must go through their days debating if their pensions and insurance justify that kind of abuse. At least I'm not in their shoes.....that's something positive. How horrible that these people - simple CSR's - now become collateral damage to some degree in this botched rollout. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 2:21pm
Rob, I don't know what to tell you. If it's any consolation, consider the millions of people who have health insurance for themselves and their families today, but will be without tomorrow due to the Affordable Care Act. You're not being singled out.Alan, I agree with you for once! Certainly I am not being singled out - many are in this boat, both people waiting to hear about their expanded Medicaid and people cut from their old plans due to ObamaCare laws. In a way,I have more sympathy for the latter group as some of these people I'm guessing (?) have lived a life in which America essentially works for them - it must be difficult to encounter something like this and have to deal with it. I don't mean any sarcasm in that, either. For such people, if they are successful and have amassed assets, it must be the same basic kind of fear I have of America - get sick and lose all your progress but they have much more progress to lose. And they probably thought they were immune from such fear. Rob
..... it must be the same basic kind of fear I have of America - get sick and lose all your progress but they have much more progress to lose. And they probably thought they were immune from such fear. Rob
Yes, for all those who bought into the redistributive mindset, they probably didn't realize that wealth wasn't the only thing being redistributed.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 2:32pm
Yes, for all those who bought into the redistributive mindset, they probably didn't realize that wealth wasn't the only thing being redistributed.Just curious Alan, by this, do you mean the fear of America I speak of sifting upwards or something else? Rob
Just curious Alan, by this, do you mean the fear of America I speak of sifting upwards or something else? Rob
No, not fear of America. Fear of helplessness as they lose control of their lifelong choices, being forced into schemes designed to benefit the minority at their expense.
And they probably thought they were immune from such fear. Rob
No Rob, I sort of always knew the looters, pillagers, and "redistributors" would get around to screwing up things sooner or later.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 3:05pm
No Rob, I sort of always knew the looters, pillagers, and "redistributors" would get around to screwing up things sooner or later.It's amazing to me that one sentence can say so much. Wow. Even as disillusioned as I am - and I am very much so - I don't see this as looting and pillaging - very strong words to use when considering that an attempt - botched for sure - has been made to extend health insurance to those who lives formerly were not worth it. I really don't belong in a country where such is looked upon as looting and pillaging - are you really serious when you use these words? I would agree with ineffective redistribution to date but looting and pillaging? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 3:07pm
No, not fear of America. Fear of helplessness as they lose control of their lifelong choices, being forced into schemes designed to benefit the minority at their expense.Have you ever heard of the saying that the true test of any country is how it's minorities are treated? I would say think about that but lower paid people are really not the minority these days and the middle class is shrinking.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 3:10pm
No, not fear of America. Fear of helplessness as they lose control of their lifelong choices, being forced into schemes designed to benefit the minority at their expense.Fear of helplessness I can certainly relate to. That's what the Mexican border is for - to level the playing field and give me back some basic human rights I am not worth in America. Perhaps these others could learn this valuable lesson? I did, and it wasn't even hard or all that unpleasant, really. And if they can hold onto some cash they can still afford to access the border if they live much further away than I do. Just my two cents. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
12-31-13, 3:16pm
I say look at who wrote the legistlation, the insurance companies were involved in writing the very legistlation and there were backroom deals, the drug companies got their kickback (and reimiportation of drugs was killed). Fowler weaved in and out of government and HMOs and pharma. A bill that was completely a public-private partnership was produced but I think if there's one thing that never works: it's that.
Even that doesn't explain why they screwed up Medicaid expansion, that should be the easy part, I guess more coruption with the web contractors etc..
I don't see this as looting and pillaging - very strong words to use when considering that an attempt - botched for sure - has been made to extend health insurance to those who lives formerly were not worth it.
looting and pillaging? For the insurance companies? I'd believe it.
Have you ever heard of the saying that the true test of any country is how it's minorities are treated?
The smallest minority on Earth is the individual, Rob.
Have you ever heard of the saying that the true test of any country is how it's minorities are treated?
Yes, I've heard that said, although I'd be hard pressed to attribute it to anything other than a motivational poster. Have you heard the Voltaire quote which goes along the lines of: "To learn who rules over you, consider who you're not allowed to criticize."? If not, food for thought.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 3:44pm
Yes, I've heard that said, although I'd be hard pressed to attribute it to anything other than a motivational poster. Have you heard the Voltaire quote which goes along the lines of: "To learn who rules over you, consider who you're not allowed to criticize."? If not, food for thought.I had not heard that and I like it as a quote though I'm not sure it applies in my case. I believe in holding people and institutions and governments accountable and certainly by now you've seen me take jabs at many people/institutions/governments/beliefs/social class structure - I'm sure this list could go on a bit more. I've even disagreed with Obama on occasion and I am now willing to give you this rollout is not just botched by has morphed into a nightmare. I wonder how many bright and motivated young people we lose due to this - realizing that universal health care is a good thing and then taking their skills and abilities and talents to one of many countries that already has it and can do it without this degree of dysfunction. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 4:29pm
Well here's an update. Not good. I called the 800 healthcare.gov number and was told my application had been sent to Arizona Medicaid on December 18th. Three problems here - on one call I was told the same for a date of mid October and on another call I was told the same for a date of late October. I called the Navigator's office I used and they had no information at all for me. Gotta say I am disheartened at best. I need to go take a walk and get away from the phone and the Internet I think. Rob
Simply Divine
12-31-13, 4:29pm
Yes, I've heard that said, although I'd be hard pressed to attribute it to anything other than a motivational poster. Have you heard the Voltaire quote which goes along the lines of: "To learn who rules over you, consider who you're not allowed to criticize."? If not, food for thought.
That means al Qaeda rules over us, as the media has learned the hard way not to criticize fundamentalist Islam or Muslims in general, because of a potential fatwa over our collective heads. Everything else can be criticized without much fear of retribution, judging from what I read in the media and on social media sites. Even the politically incorrect Duck Dynasty has its many supporters, for example.
As for the ACA, it's rollout has been botched, just like Medicare Part D in its first year, but people aren't talking about that. Since other countries have some form of universal healthcare, many for decades, I imagine in a few years people won't know what the fuss was about, and the Republicans will take credit for it since it is so heavily based on Romneycare, which overall has been considered successful.
As for "the smallest minority on Earth is the individual" -- that sounds like something Ayn Rand said, perhaps in The Virtue of Selfishness. I've read many of her books and own five of them, so excuse me if my memory is incorrect.
Seems like if you moved to the right locale and with your service background, you might be able to find a position where health insurance is provided. That way you wouldn't have to worry so much about it.
Costco, Container Store, Whole Foods, etc. If you are choosing voluntary simplicity and just trying to get by, then it remains a tough chore to be/stay covered until/if all of this stuff levels out. I just wish the whole medical industry paradigm would change - it is sick itself.
Gardenarian
12-31-13, 5:11pm
Rob - I'm so sorry that you, and everyone else involved, didn't get the health care they were promised. It's inexcusable.
Does anyone know why the deadline of December 23 was imposed? Why have a deadline at all?
The real nightmare begins when people who are signed up go to the doctor and the doctor can't get verification from the insurance companies. It is a mess.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 5:46pm
The real nightmare begins when people who are signed up go to the doctor and the doctor can't get verification from the insurance companies. It is a mess.Florence, thank you for bringing this up. I worry about this, too - after such a botched roll out, what's to say that insurance will actually be backing up the nice, shiny new health care cards we are supposed to be getting? I don't mean that this will be done on purpose - I'm meaning more along the lines of lack of verification, insurance card information never getting entered correctly, huge bills suddenly appearing where they are supposed to be covered, resulting litigation that would ensue as people try to protect their assets.....I'm with you. This is turning into a mess. I don't like admitting this but at this point how could I not? Rob
Oh well. I don't mind going to Mexico for dental/health anyway, it's looking like that will be continuing......
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 5:48pm
Rob - I'm so sorry that you, and everyone else involved, didn't get the health care they were promised. It's inexcusable.
Does anyone know why the deadline of December 23 was imposed? Why have a deadline at all?Gardenian - Thank you for your kind words and your compassion. I'm not sure about why the 12/23 deadline was imposed, no. Rob
Gardenian - Thank you for your kind words and your compassion. I'm not sure about why the 12/23 deadline was imposed, no. Rob
Obama signed the bill into law March 23, 2010. That was what, 3 years and 9 months ago? So I guess they had to pick a date. Preferably one far enough out that it wouldn't mess up any upcoming elections, and give the politicians time to farm out the pork to their supporters.
By way of comparison, Pearl Harbor was attacked Dec 7, 1941, and the Japanese surrendered Aug 15, 1945. Oddly, about 3 years and 9 months. I think we snuck in The Manhattan Project in the middle there somewhere. Yet today, we can't build a simple website to sell healthcare in the same amount of time.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 6:00pm
Obama signed the bill into law March 23, 2010. That was what, 3 years and 9 months ago? So I guess they had to pick a date. Preferably one far enough out that it wouldn't mess up any upcoming elections, and give the politicians time to farm out the pork to their supporters.
By way of comparison, Pearl Harbor was attacked Dec 7, 1941, and the Japanese surrendered Aug 15, 1945. Oddly, about 3 years and 9 months. I think we snuck in The Manhattan Project in the middle there somewhere. Yet today, we can't build a simple website to sell healthcare in the same amount of time.It does seem like there was more than enough time to build a simple website as you say to sell healthcare. I'm going to have to agree with you, Bae. Good point. Rob
flowerseverywhere
12-31-13, 6:15pm
I agree. That job must be an absolute nightmare now and these people must go through their days debating if their pensions and insurance justify that kind of abuse. At least I'm not in their shoes.....that's something positive. How horrible that these people - simple CSR's - now become collateral damage to some degree in this botched rollout. Rob
For both of them it is all about supporting their families and there is no debate. Providing for their loved ones is priority number 1. Sometimes you have to suck it up.
Simply Divine
12-31-13, 6:52pm
It does seem like there was more than enough time to build a simple website as you say to sell healthcare. I'm going to have to agree with you, Bae. Good point. Rob
The design, creation, and maintenance of healthcare.gov was anything but simple, particularly the back end of it. They should have allotted more time for its development. The deadline was unrealistic for a good web site and they knew it, but they fell to the political pressure.
sweetana3
12-31-13, 8:23pm
I agree it was nothing short of a monumental job to create the website. By website, I include all the tie in requirement of coordination and dowloads from a huge number of already complex and individual sites such as IRS, Social Security, etc. I worked for the IRS for 35 years and saw the vast number of issues raised just with our coordination with SS. I hope they dont have to tie into the Dept. of Defense or VA for any reason since we never trusted that data.
None of these governmental groups were designed to work together or work the same. I had to laugh (or cry) when I saw that they would "pull down" the necessary info from a variety of agencies to build a file for applicants.
My pessimistic side has arisen.
I hope they develop a Health Care Advocate position to help those with problems thru the system just like the Taxpayer Advocate. I suspect they wont or it will be a long time and those who need help will just fall away instead of confronting the big issue.
ApatheticNoMore
12-31-13, 8:47pm
I've never seen so much time allocated ever in the corporate world, so yea I want to live in that world where there is all the time in the world to get things done - when pigs take wing. I mean 3 years might as well be geological time in business time. However there are some confounding factors: it seems requirements were changing at the last minute, not good. The amount of customers initially expected was large, a lot of companies can do a scale up to more customers, they had to start big. Backend integration is just brute force and working through the issues (because I've seen pleny of integrations definitely including credit agencies and the like). But that brings up the question, if backend integration is just brute force what was the staffing like? Did they try to do the whole thing on a skeleton staff? Of course if the data itself is utter garbage .... and we're not dealing with formatting issues for integration but with the actual data itself being garbage then ...
I'll repeat. We won WWII, and developed and deployed the atom bomb, in about the same time frame as it took these clowns to figure out how to cancel my existing insurance policy and manage to sell me at the last minute one that has unspecified features, from an unspecified provider, and seems unlikely to be accepted by any doctor within a day's travel time from me. (Which luckily, Alan is paying for...)
Yay!
And I'm one of the lucky ones - at the current sign-up rate, we are slightly ahead of the birth/immigration rate, so we can be assured that sometime in my grandchildren's lifetime, we'll all have a program.
I may soon favor Rob's approach - I'm still young enough the Canadians will just let me in if I bring enough Krugerrands sewn into my socks when I cross the border, which is only a 10 minute voyage by rowboat from here. And they have better dim sum in Vancouver and Victoria than they do hereabouts.
Rob - I'm so sorry that you, and everyone else involved, didn't get the health care they were promised. It's inexcusable.
Does anyone know why the deadline of December 23 was imposed? Why have a deadline at all?
The deadline of December 23 is for insurance coverage commencing on January 1, 2014. If you miss this deadline, you can apply for insurance starting on February 1. The open enrollment for the year ends in March.
For me, the Affordable Care Act is a godsend. I am losing my full-time job with benefits and without the ACA, I would not be able to get any private insurance due to a pre-existing condition. I make too much money, even part-time to qualify for any type of lower-income coverage such as Medicaid.
I feel that decoupling work from health insurance will eventually change how businesses attract and retain employees. It is also paving the way for many 50- and 60-somethings to retire and exit the workplace and have health insurance before they are old enough to qualify for Medicare. This will open up their jobs to the next generation, helping to improve employment opportunities for those who need. Yes, the rollout was botched, but it will be fixed and "Romneycare" or the ACA as we now know it, will hopefully be a good thing in the long run.
The design, creation, and maintenance of healthcare.gov was anything but simple, particularly the back end of it. They should have allotted more time for its development. The deadline was unrealistic for a good web site and they knew it, but they fell to the political pressure.
From what I've read there were offers of free help, large amounts of it, from the likes of Google to help develop the website. The gov turned it down. Stupid is as stupid does.
If they'd selected one of Michelle's *other* Princeton classmates, Jeff B., to give the contract to, this would all be running smoothly now. Speaking as a fellow member of Princeton '85, she could have directed the gravy train at a dozen other more capable candidates instead of Toni. Some of them with majors and thesis topics more appropriate to the jobs.
Yes, I'm still bitter that as a privileged white male (I can show you pictures of the palatial trailer I grew up in...) teaching women's self-defense classes at the Third World Center, they grumped at my very presence, and worked to throw us white guys out of community meetings. "Liberation Hall" indeed....
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-13, 10:51pm
From what I've read there were offers of free help, large amounts of it, from the likes of Google to help develop the website. The gov turned it down. Stupid is as stupid does.Depressingly enough I see your point here, Tradd. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
12-31-13, 11:52pm
From what I've read there were offers of free help, large amounts of it, from the likes of Google to help develop the website. The gov turned it down. Stupid is as stupid does.
At what point? If it's late in the game (I heard about offers after the site already went live - such as Verizon) then at that point it may already be a cluster. Things that were entirely left out just because of lack of time can *maybe* be fixed late in the game, but if everything built and a complete mess. No ....
Sure it's a complicated site, but, three years of development and this is what we got? It seems obvious to me that the developers were more interested in the cost over-runs guaranteed to government contractors rather than completing the site. It also seem apparent that the administration and the Dept of Health and Human Services allowed political meddling, especially near the end of the process, to screw up the end result in order to hide harsh realities from gullible users and loyal voters.
Weeks after the site went live, HHS personnel admitted during testimony to Congress that 60 to 70% of the backend had yet to be built. General consensus on the front end was that it was purposely muddled to prevent people from seeing the cost of their plans before subsidies were deducted less anyone realize that the Affordable part of the Care Act be exposed for what it really was. The site lacked basic security measures required of all government applications, yet still went live with the publicly stated complete confidence and approval of our President and related political minions.
To me, the site is not the story, it's the way the President and the Democratic Party forced this monstrosity on us using lies to mask known effects as well as their incompetence.
As of tomorrow, we'll have a net loss of several million citizens covered by health insurance and I see no responsible parties hanging their heads in shame. Personally, I find schadenfreude fun right up to the point real people become victims, and now is that time.
It's not single payer, which we need. Yet, I have many friends & colleagues now covered affordably. Also my young adult stepkids. Suffering prevented in my circle. If ACA had been in place 12 months earlier, I'd still have my small retirement fund I had to cash out to pay for cancer treatment.
Teacher Terry
1-1-14, 2:39am
I agree that we need single payer. I have friends that had health insurance but still lost their paid for home, savings, retirement, etc to pay what insurance would not for cancer treatment. She is still alive but they are 67 with not a pot to pi** in because of cancer. They saved their entire lives and lost everything. Now they both have cancer and & he is struggling to work thru sickness/treatments & she is on ss. They rent and are worried. He worries what will happen to her if he dies first. They did everything right yet have nothing.
gimmethesimplelife
1-1-14, 6:06am
I agree that we need single payer. I have friends that had health insurance but still lost their paid for home, savings, retirement, etc to pay what insurance would not for cancer treatment. She is still alive but they are 67 with not a pot to pi** in because of cancer. They saved their entire lives and lost everything. Now they both have cancer and & he is struggling to work thru sickness/treatments & she is on ss. They rent and are worried. He worries what will happen to her if he dies first. They did everything right yet have nothing.I read something like this and first it makes me want to cry, then I get angry, then I question why anyone of us including myself remain in a country so wealthy overall but with such an inequality in wealth - and in such a country where this could happen. I am not having much luck to date with ObamaCare but I would agree the jury is still out on its long term results - but I'm cherishing and respecting that Mexican border more and more with each passing day. I don't have the faith I once did that such stories as mentioned above can or will be averted in the United States going forward - but it does give me hope that young people these days don't seem to have geographical loyalty. Rob
I feel that decoupling work from health insurance will eventually change how businesses attract and retain employees. It is also paving the way for many 50- and 60-somethings to retire and exit the workplace and have health insurance before they are old enough to qualify for Medicare. This will open up their jobs to the next generation, helping to improve employment opportunities for those who need. Yes, the rollout was botched, but it will be fixed and "Romneycare" or the ACA as we now know it, will hopefully be a good thing in the long run.
Spoony, I completely agree with you--especially on decoupling work from insurance.
That being said, I have to say I'm bummed about some of the realities of this roll-out--specifically the lack of options for lower cost plans for someone like me--a freelancer who would choose a catastrophic plan, but alas, they are all gone and I'm left with being forced to pay a hefty sum for healthcare coverage.
Maybe you're right--and they'll straighten it all out, and we can enjoy the benefits of not having to be wage slaves in order to get affordable healthcare. That would be awesome.
Simpler at Fifty
1-1-14, 10:38am
So I will bite on this Teacher Terry. Was the cancer treatment covered by insurance or not covered because it was experimental? Once your deductible and coinsurance is met, is not the rest of the treatment for the plan year covered at 100%? Did they have to travel for the treatment so there were expenses for hotels, apartments, lost income ? I always wonder what "pay what insurance would not for cancer treatment" really means. Just asking.
Teacher Terry
1-1-14, 3:50pm
They got all the treatment locally, not experimental treatment and had insurance. However, in 5 years she had 7 surgeries & 5 rounds of chemo and needed home care for 2 years. The insurance they had required a huge out of pocket before they covered at 100%. They borrowed from their paid off house once the savings, etc were gone to keep up with the payments. That was probably their biggest mistake but they thought the hospital/docs would not continue to treat if they were not getting all their $.
Simpler, many plans have a payout limit, and cancer treatment can test those limits. It's unconscionable that people lose their lives due to this. Health care must be removed from the for-profit market. Single payer!
Teacher Terry
1-1-14, 5:14pm
Redfox, I actually forgot about the fact that many insurances have a limit although I don't think that affected them. I think that is one thing that ACA has changed. With the insurance I have as a retired state employee we are required to pay out about 15,000/year before everything is covered at 100%. This does not affect everyone-just someone with a serious illness. Imagine if you had to do that 5 years in a row. I agree-single payer!
Simpler at Fifty
1-1-14, 5:31pm
Thanks for clarifying TeacherTerry.
iris lilies
1-1-14, 9:59pm
I would like to know from the "single payer thumps up" fans, specifically: how much can/should a citizen retain in net worth while his supporting society pays for cancer(or any other health ) treatment.
Seriously, tell me the dollar amount.
None. Here is a description of the British system, of which I am a fan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_England
I'd like to know more about your question, IL, and your own answer. I'm not sure I understand the context behind your query.
I would like to know from the "single payer thumps up" fans, specifically: how much can/should a citizen retain in net worth while his supporting society pays for cancer(or any other health ) treatment.
Seriously, tell me the dollar amount.
Infinite.
Just as the citizen gets to retain his net worth when he uses the federal and state roads or the criminal justice system, and lives protected by the might of his fellow citizens serving in the military, and that sort of thing.
iris lilies
1-1-14, 10:42pm
None. Here is a description of the British system, of which I am a fan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_England
I'd like to know more about your question, IL, and your own answer. I'm not sure I understand the context behind your query.
That is a lot of yadda yadda, that wiki article.
According to that article in the NHS one can retain, for example, $30,000,000 (ten millions!) in net worth assets and still be medically treated by NHS. It that ok with you redfox? That the taxpayers, I mean, put forth resources to treat this multimillionaire? He's in the 1% just to remind you how entirely despicable he is! haha.
Personally, I think that if we must move to a single payer model (and we cannot afford that and I am not in favor) then at least for god's sake, let here be a wealth cap. theoretically. Theoretically let's say there is a wealth cap at #2 millions, and after that, that SOB pays for his own freakin' health insurance, haha!
In the practical world I suppose I have to fall into line with bae's position, damn it. wealth cap? too expensive to carry out.
iris lilies
1-1-14, 10:43pm
ah bae, I love you! you push the boundaries of my thinking, few here do.
flowerseverywhere
1-1-14, 10:54pm
That is a lot of yadda yadda, that wiki article.
According to that article in the NHS one can retain, for example, $30,000,000 (ten millions!) in net worth assets and still be medically treated by NHS. It that ok with you redfox? That the taxpayers, I mean, put forth resources to treat this multimillionaire? He's in the 1% just to remind you how entirely despicable he is! haha.
i imagine someone with a lot of wealth has the potential to pay a lot of taxes and make a huge financial contribution to the society they live in. For instance, property taxes are most likely pretty high. They may employ a lot of people to keep up the estate whom all in turn pay taxes. I assume many spend a lot more on cars, vacations, expensive hotels etc and the resultant taxes than I ever do.
Many wealthy people also give a lot to charity.
I certainly don't don't have the answer here, but as usual see many sides of the story. But as long as physicians spend several hundred thousand dollars to be educated and there are all kinds of people making a profit, from pharmaceutical companies to insurance companies to hospitals and providers, things will never get under control here.
That is a lot of yadda yadda, that wiki article.
According to that article in the NHS one can retain, for example, $30,000,000 (ten millions!) in net worth assets and still be medically treated by NHS. It that ok with you redfox? That the taxpayers, I mean, put forth resources to treat this multimillionaire? He's in the 1% just to remind you how entirely despicable he is! haha.
Personally, I think that if we must move to a single payer model (and we cannot afford that and I am not in favor) then at least for god's sake, let here be a wealth cap. theoretically. Theoretically let's say there is a wealth cap at #2 millions, and after that, that SOB pays for his own freakin' health insurance, haha!
In the practical world I suppose I have to fall into line with bae's position, damn it. wealth cap? too expensive to carry out.
Yes, it is ok with me. I don't despise the 1%, I despise the current system which allows for grossly unequal wealth distribution. I manage a portfolio of donors in the 1%, and to a person! they are all wonderful people. And, most of my donors agree with me regarding single payer AND the inequality of the wealth distribution system.
flowerseverywhere
1-2-14, 12:20am
Iris, in the uk the rich have private insurance anyway to bypass the lines, such as for elective surgery like knee replacement from what I have read.
Teacher Terry
1-2-14, 1:28am
So if you can not afford it you just die? Who dies-just the old-very young without money? Why can all the European countries handle this & we cannot? Are you people willing to gamble that you & someone you love will not have this happen to you?
So if you can not afford it you just die? Who dies-just the old-very young without money? Why can all the European countries handle this & we cannot? Are you people willing to gamble that you & someone you love will not have this happen to you?
Being on the losing end of the gamble, with what I truly hope is a now-cured cancer, it sucks. I at least had the retirement savings to cash out to pay for the treatment I needed. I now have a job with good insurance, but if I have a recurrence, could I work? Would I lose my workplace based benefits? Would husband & I go bankrupt paying for treatment? I hate even thinking about it. It's insanity that BASIC human needs like housing, food, health care, education are not uniformly available and publicly financed.
Three reasons:
1. National registration. Can you ever imagine the US giving in to National registration.
2. VAT or other taxes. Can you ever imagine the military industrial complex giving up war to spend the money on medicine?
3. Control of cost by rational use of resources. Can you imagine the orphan drug and procedure wars that would go on and who will be the deciding groups? Death is going to happen to each and every one of us because we break or wear out. How much will one person be "allowed" to use of precious resources?
Sarcasm here. I truly believe in a single payer system and also agree with the limitations that might come with it. However, I am in the minority.
flowerseverywhere
1-2-14, 8:34am
So if you can not afford it you just die? Who dies-just the old-very young without money? Why can all the European countries handle this & we cannot? Are you people willing to gamble that you & someone you love will not have this happen to you?
too many people are making money off the sick. It is a business with insurance companies and other middle men. We don't just pay for a service. When you go to the MD there is a staff to handle complex billing, codes, call and write to insurance companies etc. that adds a lot to insurance. When I was a child there was a doctor and a secretary/nurse. Also, the amount of money we pay for our military complex takes a huge chunk out of our budget. And all these wounded soldiers who have come home with amputations etc. it our obligation to take care of them monetarily as well.
But part of life is death. When I worked as a nurse I saw many people hang on long before their time, getting one expensive treatment after another despite no chance of a cure or even a good quality of life. I mentioned before someone I know a man in his 70's who has an in curable cancer who has spent the last year of his life getting expensive chemo, and wasting away in bed. When my cholesterol was a little high they immediately wanted to put me on a pill. Instead I ate oatmeal every day. We spend money on treatment like the money well is bottomless. All of the money in the world could not save Steve Jobs.
To summarize, it's about time I heard something, anything at all. I have applied once over the phone and heard nothing (but was told I'd get a letter in two to three weeks which never materialized). This was during the first week of October.
Rob - I haven't read all the other posts yet but You might have to wait a bit longer to get your card than the first week of Jan. I have heard of other hold ups from people in Calif - where there is also expanded Medicaid - and it sounds like, while their applications have been received and approved via the website, they just haven't received a card or any "official" letter saying that they have been approved but that one would be coming soon. So maybe it's just a backlog. Not sure if the same holds true for those who have had their insurance plans cancelled (like me) and who have been applying for new insurance plans (which I have decided not to do at this time). They might also be experiencing a backlog since so many people signed up at the last minute.
What makes you stay versus moving to Mexico?
gimmethesimplelife
1-4-14, 3:09pm
What makes you stay versus moving to Mexico?Hi Reyes. The big reason I stay right now is that I want to go back to school and learn a skill as I have seen how short life can be. I am 47 and have lost a few friends already - one at 45 to a heart attack and one at 44 to cancer. At this point I have a BSBA in Marketing I have never used and pretty much what I can do in life is serve - and garden, I garden well too but that's besides the point. I'd sure like to have some kind of skill even if I were to never get the chance to use it so I can say I knew something beyond waiting tables.
And one other thing that honestly bothers me about Mexico - the area outside of Guadalajara around Lake Chapala where there are so many retirees and there is that perfect climate? Ajijic, Jocotepec, Chapala, all these villages that border the lake - crime has increased significantly there and cartel gore has come to Guadalajara now. Very sad as this is where I would have liked to park it and Guadalajara is one of my favorite cities I have ever been to - and for a while it was spared the cartel gore. Not anymore. I need to think of where else I'd go. Something crazy about the US and Mexico - both insane in their own right here - In Mexico criminals tend to act with impunity due to how corrupt and inefficient the system can be - in the US, get a small misdemeanor such as having a loud party while you are in college and having a noise complaint and find yourself unemployable for life due to background checks. Both to me are equally insane but this insanity on this side of the border can crush you but it's much less likely to kill you. I am not unaware of this.
That said, and that is not something to take lightly, as corrupt as Mexico is and as scary as it can be - why does the government there actually control what pharmaceuticals can cost? My head spun when I discovered this as I was thinking - corrupt as they are and as dangerous as they can be - at least do actually do this AND WE CAN'T? This brings up two things for me - A). Never blanket assume any country is the better deal 100% of the time, and B). Borders exist to be taken advantage of (in this case, for less expensive health and dental care and I understand that even vets are opening up shop on the border now and are much less expensive than US vets, too.) You will see the same principle at play if you visit any US border city - anything electronic or that plugs into electricity is going to be cheaper in the US and Mexicans cross every day to buy these things here.
I don't know how ObamaCare is going to ultimately pan out but I do believe in my future, perhaps Uruguay or Chile might be good bets. Right now the border on the Mexican side at Los Algodones is safe but I also understand this can change at the drop of a hat. Rob
Here is an awesome video I just got through Upworthy. The speaker is such an engaging presenter, as young as he is--and so credible, having experienced the healthcare system through a young-in-life bout with cancer and leg amputation.
And he pretty much nails some of our biggest healthcare cost problems in in just a few minutes.
http://www.upworthy.com/i-never-knew-american-health-care-was-a-lottery-till-i-saw-what-this-guy-had-to-say?c=ufb1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dqLdFFKvhH4
gimmethesimplelife
1-4-14, 3:49pm
Here is an awesome video I just got through Upworthy. The speaker is such an engaging presenter, as young as he is--and so credible, having experienced the healthcare system through a young-in-life bout with cancer and leg amputation.
And he pretty much nails some of our biggest healthcare cost problems in in just a few minutes.
http://www.upworthy.com/i-never-knew-american-health-care-was-a-lottery-till-i-saw-what-this-guy-had-to-say?c=ufb1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dqLdFFKvhH4
He's dead on as far as I am concerned. It's gotten so bad here that every time I see a Mexican flag I salute it regardless of who I am with or what they may think of me - in Mexico - or most anywhere else for that matter - you get lower prices for procedures and don't subsidize malpractice insurance companies. There, (to me anyway) is a whole layer of health care costs I take great pleasure in avoiding by crossing the border. Rob
Rob - Have you thought of trying to just increase your income by a few thousand dollars a year so that you qualify for subsidies rather than Medicaid? I think your taxable income is about what mine is (although I also have some non-taxable income as well) and when I plugged in an increased income of just $5,000 more per year into the ACA website I would qualify for pretty much any of the plans - including Platinum Plans - for basicly free (about $1/month premium). And while I personally don't think people like me - retired young by choice on a lower income but higher asset - should get free medical care on Alan's taxpaying dime (especially when he can't get subsidies and has to pay a lot more under Obamacare for his own insurance, especially if he wanted to get a Platinum Plan for himself and his family, as well as more in taxes to pay for my plan, especially to pay for a Platinum Plan for me) it might be a much better option fort you to earn a bit more and get the subsidies and a regular insurance plan for then depending on Medicaid. I think that even at minimum wage, it would only take an extra 10 - 12 hours/week (or another seasonal gig that has a lot of hours) to earn enough it get your income at the ACA cutoff - which is around $16K/year.
It's gotten so bad here that every time I see a Mexican flag I salute it regardless of who I am with or what they may think of me -
Know what you are saluting...
http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/mexico?page=1
I've spent a lot of time in Mexico, and seen and heard things that would make me...hesitant...about adopting Mexico as a model of good governance.
gimmethesimplelife
1-4-14, 8:30pm
Know what you are saluting...
http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/mexico?page=1
I've spent a lot of time in Mexico, and seen and heard things that would make me...hesitant...about adopting Mexico as a model of good governance.Bae, I would not exactly hold up Mexico as a model of good governance. I bring up such as the fact that Mexico controls what pharma can cost as even with all their issues, they still do this - it seems to me very shameful that WE can't and yet so many look down on Mexico without even acknowledging this issue.
But yeah, as far as a model of good governance, in Latin America for me it would hands down be Uruguay, followed by Chile. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-4-14, 8:32pm
Rob - Have you thought of trying to just increase your income by a few thousand dollars a year so that you qualify for subsidies rather than Medicaid? I think your taxable income is about what mine is (although I also have some non-taxable income as well) and when I plugged in an increased income of just $5,000 more per year into the ACA website I would qualify for pretty much any of the plans - including Platinum Plans - for basicly free (about $1/month premium). And while I personally don't think people like me - retired young by choice on a lower income but higher asset - should get free medical care on Alan's taxpaying dime (especially when he can't get subsidies and has to pay a lot more under Obamacare for his own insurance, especially if he wanted to get a Platinum Plan for himself and his family, as well as more in taxes to pay for my plan, especially to pay for a Platinum Plan for me) it might be a much better option fort you to earn a bit more and get the subsidies and a regular insurance plan for then depending on Medicaid. I think that even at minimum wage, it would only take an extra 10 - 12 hours/week (or another seasonal gig that has a lot of hours) to earn enough it get your income at the ACA cutoff - which is around $16K/year.I have thought of this yes - what makes it more difficult is that I will be in school F/T starting very soon here....but a seasonal job would help lift my income closer to being able to get on the regular exchange and get the subsidies, yes. Good idea if I can pull it off. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-4-14, 8:36pm
Know what you are saluting...
http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/mexico?page=1
I've spent a lot of time in Mexico, and seen and heard things that would make me...hesitant...about adopting Mexico as a model of good governance.I also see there are issues in the US that make the Human Rights Watch page, though I would agree the issues in Mexico are more serious and detrimental to society as a whole. Rob
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:36pm
I'll repeat. We won WWII, and developed and deployed the atom bomb, in about the same time frame as it took these clowns to figure out how to cancel my existing insurance policy and manage to sell me at the last minute one that has unspecified features, from an unspecified provider, and seems unlikely to be accepted by any doctor within a day's travel time from me.
Do you honestly think US government today is similar enough to the one in WWII to make a fair comparison? I certainly don't.
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:38pm
From what I've read there were offers of free help, large amounts of it, from the likes of Google to help develop the website. The gov turned it down. Stupid is as stupid does.
I think letting Google have access to all of that PHI would be a political nightmare for everyone involved.
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:41pm
I agree that we need single payer. I have friends that had health insurance but still lost their paid for home, savings, retirement, etc to pay what insurance would not for cancer treatment. She is still alive but they are 67 with not a pot to pi** in because of cancer. They saved their entire lives and lost everything. Now they both have cancer and & he is struggling to work thru sickness/treatments & she is on ss. They rent and are worried. He worries what will happen to her if he dies first. They did everything right yet have nothing.
+1 ^ Medical issues should not do this to people.
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:47pm
Being on the losing end of the gamble, with what I truly hope is a now-cured cancer, it sucks. I at least had the retirement savings to cash out to pay for the treatment I needed. I now have a job with good insurance, but if I have a recurrence, could I work? Would I lose my workplace based benefits? Would husband & I go bankrupt paying for treatment? I hate even thinking about it. It's insanity that BASIC human needs like housing, food, health care, education are not uniformly available and publicly financed.
At my workplace, if you sign up for a disability plan, they pay half your salary and all of your insurance coverage for a year if you get sick and cannot work. It's better than nothing and only a few extra dollars a month.
Do you honestly think US government today is similar enough to the one in WWII to make a fair comparison?
No. We used to be able to build roads and bridges and hospitals, harness the atom, put men on the moon, defeat Nazis, and all that good stuff.
Now we can't even put together a website to sell healthcare.
I think that *was* the comparison. Perhaps I was too polite about expressing how inept I think our "government" is these days...
http://markgreenwood23.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/picture-planetoftheapes_hell2-1.jpg
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:57pm
I have thought of this yes - what makes it more difficult is that I will be in school F/T starting very soon here....but a seasonal job would help lift my income closer to being able to get on the regular exchange and get the subsidies, yes. Good idea if I can pull it off. Rob
Can you get insurance through your school?
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 8:59pm
No. We used to be able to build roads and bridges and hospitals, harness the atom, put men on the moon, defeat Nazis, and all that good stuff.
Now we can't even put together a website to sell healthcare.
I think that *was* the comparison. Perhaps I was too polite about expressing how inept I think our "government" is these days...
http://markgreenwood23.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/picture-planetoftheapes_hell2-1.jpg
My point was the government is just more complex, with several more agencies, than it was in WWII.
As for WWII? nuclear bombing? I don't exactly like the "good ol' days." :~) I've talked to several people from "The Greatest Generation." The general sentiment is that time in our nation's history is overrated.
My point was the government is just more complex, with several more agencies, than it was in WWII.
And what utility does that "more complex" government provide us? Compared to, you know, roads, bridges, hospitals, men on the moon, and dead Nazis?
More complex may be the wrong direction...
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 9:20pm
And what utility does that "more complex" government provide us? Compared to, you know, roads, bridges, hospitals, men on the moon, and dead Nazis?
More complex may be the wrong direction...
I'm just stating the facts. Things are different from 1945, and we can't just blame it on any one President.
I'm just stating the facts. Things are different from 1945, and we can't just blame it on any one President.
I wasn't blaming any one President. I was blaming our government as a whole. Our current President is part of the government of course, and he and his cronies certainly have stepped in it, but the point is quite a bit broader than that.
Unless you are keen on selling partisan politics, but then you are part of the problem.
Simply Divine
1-4-14, 9:36pm
I wasn't blaming any one President. I was blaming our government as a whole. Our current President is part of the government of course, and he and his cronies certainly have stepped in it, but the point is quite a bit broader than that.
Unless you are keen on selling partisan politics, but then you are part of the problem.
:D
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 1:59am
It may make about as much sense to salute the American flag because of those nice community college classes (I do realize they are mostly state funded, but still it's them americans paying state taxes for it and everything ...). Or does one salute both? Multiculturalism - ok I can't complain - a citizen of the world.
Of course you're unlikely to ever find me saluting any flag. Swear allegiance to the flag whatever flag they offer ...
It may make about as much sense to salute the American flag because of those nice community college classes (I do realize they are mostly state funded, but still it's them american citizens still ...). Or does one salute both? Multiculturalism - ok I can't complain. Of course you're unlikely to ever find me saluting any flag. Swear allegiance to the flag whatever flag they offer ...
Wow, I'm amazed I caught that reference - "Silent Running (On Dangerous Ground)?" by Mike & the Mechanics, mid-80s... :)
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 2:15am
Yes they played it on the radio recently here. It had been long time since I'd heard it :)
It's gotten so bad here that every time I see a Mexican flag I salute it regardless of who I am with or what they may think of me Rob
Wow - so glad my uncle, brothers, and nephew fought in wars, one losing his life, another losing his sanity, so you can salute the Mexican flag. Why don't you go on and get out of this country you care so little about...and go live your idea of Utopia somewhere else. People like you make me ill - it's all ABOUT YOU!
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 6:35am
By the way Rob what research have you done to make sure you really want to be a web designer, I believe it was? Have you interviewed website designers about the work, what's required, whether they like it, whether they'd recommend it if they were starting out, what the expectations are, how the field is doing - going like gangbangers, declining, what (from their perspective), whether they think the classes you are taking will prepare you well?
Hey maybe I just don't want to see you get in the wrong field and blame America on here (and yea I think I do have some understandings of larger social contexts, but that's neither here nor there). I don't even presume to say whether it will work out or not. But I will say this: the computer field as such is crazy-making, with all the ever changing technologies, and the never ending technologies they want you to know. And I've heard website design is becoming more and more complex. For websites I've only ever worked on middle tier coding type stuff (yea coding not design) so not anything resembling front end design. I don't even know enough to know exactly where website design ends and development begins (ok maybe those websites were more functional than pretty). So again I'm fairly ignorant as well.
And if the stakes were low, someone already had a job and was just pursing this on the side to maybe be an alternative income idea, for a tuition that was disposable income for them, then who cares, something works or it doesn't, trial and error - one is out a bit of money they could have saved or bought shinies with. But your stakes seem pretty high. So do some research if you haven't. I will say it's definitely easier WITH ANYTHING (nothing at all about that field) if all your looking for is small amounts of money coming in here and there rather than to consistently pull down a serious middle class income say.
gimmethesimplelife
1-5-14, 7:11am
Wow - so glad my uncle, brothers, and nephew fought in wars, one losing his life, another losing his sanity, so you can salute the Mexican flag. Why don't you go on and get out of this country you care so little about...and go live your idea of Utopia somewhere else. People like you make me ill - it's all ABOUT YOU!This post here really makes me sad. As I have repeatedly stated, it is not all about me - it is about all of us. I believe in the what is good for the collective whole - I am not out for myself. Health care for me anyway is my lightning rod issue as this is the only country in the world where it is so blatantly about profits and not people. I support you in your right to support America - if what it is today works for you, that's great. I mean that sincerely. OTOH, please be aware that there are many for whom it does not work that may well be better off elsewhere. My understanding of this does not mean it is all about me - it is more support for countries that respect basic human dignity and basic human needs by structuring healthcare in a more affordable, accessible way. On the contrary - this is good for the collective whole, which yes does include me, but also yourself and anyone else, too.
I find it depressing that so many people who so vocally support America (which you have the right to do in my book) seem to make a quick judgment that it is all about me or that I am looking for society to support me (and you did not say this latter, I'm aware of that, I'm just stating what I run across sometimes). On this one issue I have very thick skin if on little else, and I can certainly understand health care as a driving factor in people LEAVING as opposed to coming to the US.
Recently I ran across an article as to how the stars are aligning for Mexico at the moment and Mexico is becoming a lightning rod of immigration for young Koreans and Spaniards. I would not go so far as to call Mexico a lightning rod of immigration but I cherish the fact that I can understand why there are those who would see it that way. I'll close with a case in point so as to shed some light on this in what I consider a very human way. Last year I needed a series of ultrasounds done on me due to gallbladder/gallstone issues. Here in Phoenix I was quoted $900 for them without insurance. I deserve better than that, that simply would not do. I put my foot down and then voted with my feet to take a Greyhound to Mexicali, Mexico, five hours away from me. I crossed the border, walked 15 t0 20 minutes, and found the Hospital Almater, where I paid - are you ready? $58.50 for the same set of ultrasounds.
I'm sorry that you have family that has suffered in US military actions/wars. Seriously, I mean that even though I would never participate. Their sacrifices - though I'm sure brave and worthy of respect - don't change the marked difference between $58.50 and $900. I am at a loss for words to communicate this - I think the numbers do the job for me quite well. One last point - I'd rather you would pay $58.50 yourself instead of the $900, along with everyone else, too. It all goes back to the good of the collective whole for me.
Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-5-14, 7:20am
By the way Rob what research have you done to make sure you really want to be a web designer, I believe it was? Have you interviewed website designers about the work, what's required, whether they like it, whether they'd recommend it if they were starting out, what the expectations are, how the field is doing - going like gangbangers, declining, what (from their perspective), whether they think the classes you are taking will prepare you well?
Hey maybe I just don't want to see you get in the wrong field and blame America on here (and yea I think I do have some understandings of larger social contexts, but that's neither here nor there). I don't even presume to say whether it will work out or not. But I will say this: the computer field as such is crazy-making, with all the ever changing technologies, and the never ending technologies they want you to know. And I've heard website design is becoming more and more complex. For websites I've only ever worked on middle tier coding type stuff (yea coding not design) so not anything resembling front end design. I don't even know enough to know exactly where website design ends and development begins (ok maybe those websites were more functional than pretty). So again I'm fairly ignorant as well.
And if the stakes were low, someone already had a job and was just pursing this on the side to maybe be an alternative income idea, for a tuition that was disposable income for them, then who cares, something works or it doesn't, trial and error - one is out a bit of money they could have saved or bought shinies with. But your stakes seem pretty high. So do some research if you haven't. I will say it's definitely easier WITH ANYTHING (nothing at all about that field) if all your looking for is small amounts of money coming in here and there rather than to consistently pull down a serious middle class income say.Hi ANM!
I have done research and I have talked to people and from what I gather it is quite complex and also quite competitive. What I do like about this field is the chance to do project work and be my own boss which I believe I could achieve in awhile as I can get by quite well on less than $1000 a month. Recently I went over the particulars of my budget on another thread. What I will do with this skill remains to be seen - but as far as the tuition goes, that is money that I inherited due to the death of a friend of our family back in 2012 and there are more than financial factors eating at me here. Right now if I were to die, all that could really be said about me is that I waited tables - I want to at least have a skill other than serving under my belt. And I also realize that life is short - I had two friends die in their mid 40's over the past few years. I want to learn something and hopefully put a little bit of good into the world. Rob
rosarugosa
1-5-14, 11:06am
Hi Rob: It should be clear to anyone who reads your posts that "it's all about you" is not a valid criticism.
On the web-designer bunny trail - I think this is about as good a job as taking up buggy whip design at this point.
The field is overful of slacker hipsters with no skill who think the world will beat a path to their door to demand their non-existent design aesthetic, and pay them handsomely. Meanwhile the real work is becoming increasingly complex and automated, or shipped out to lands where people are happy to do better work cheaper and faster.
Out here in the back of beyond, I can't shake a tree without half a dozen wannabe web designers falling out of it.
Hi Rob. There are many other things you can do online besides be a web designer. Yes the pay is good and the competition is tough. Check out a couple of freelancer sites like Odesk. You may find projects there that you can already do and build a portfolio of your skills by doing a few projects. Even Freelancer.com has some merits, though a lot of really low rates. BTW you can do something good everyday at Care2.com. This is my first post at Simple Living. Petrels
Wow - so glad my uncle, brothers, and nephew fought in wars, one losing his life, another losing his sanity, so you can salute the Mexican flag. Why don't you go on and get out of this country you care so little about...and go live your idea of Utopia somewhere else. People like you make me ill - it's all ABOUT YOU!
My male relatives all served, too. My father was wounded twice in the Pacific Theater. My nephew volunteered to serve in the Middle East. But unlike you, I'm disinclined to judge others for criticizing our government, or even for symbolically saluting one of our allies' flags. Freedom is not just a word; we're all free in this country to have opinions you don't like.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 1:21pm
Bleh, I started thinking about how one gathers info on careers, and the biases that may be involved, on the one hand someone successful at something *may* lead one to believe it's much harder that it seems because they don't want the competition (and it's a rare person with certain values that will place the spreading of information over keeping their piece of the pie), on the other hand the people you interview will be those that were successful at it not the drop outs (who may have given their all and failed) so -> survivorship bias. Interview just the people that graduated from say the community college program, but I imagine that info is hard to find. Interview people elsewhere who may or may not be your direct competition (but it's a virtual world). Find random people griping online (no, don't do this, while you might get some real info from this, this is horribly horribly biased - it's all a game of ain't it aweful to get out the daily frustration). One could also of course look at job ads, but there can be a lot one doesn't see in them (ie don't' have the vocabulary or experience to fully interpret a job ad from the outside looking in).
Right now if I were to die, all that could really be said about me is that I waited tables - I want to at least have a skill other than serving under my belt. And I also realize that life is short - I had two friends die in their mid 40's over the past few years. I want to learn something and hopefully put a little bit of good into the world.
yea I reject the status game, so I don't think some jobs should be seen as lowly. But of course some jobs may do more good than other jobs (I would reject jobs that do very direct harm - but excluding that some jobs may do more good than others). It's odd to see web-design described that way like it's being a nurse or a social worker or something, but to each their own since it's a value judgement and they're complex (I have no doubt people in helping fields sometimes do harm because they don't know what they are doing or have no natural aptitude for that field etc. - so it's not black and white). Of course assuming no harm, having done multiple fields does increase the scope of what one has experienced in life if that is one of one's major values.
I have thought of this yes - what makes it more difficult is that I will be in school F/T starting very soon here....but a seasonal job would help lift my income closer to being able to get on the regular exchange and get the subsidies, yes. Good idea if I can pull it off. RobYou might want to see if you can get insurance coverage thru your school - or even use the schools health center (if they have one) for most of your stuff. Here in Calif all the colleges - including community colleges - have health centers and most students are required to join for a small fee. They can use them for many smaller things - like getting lab tests and antibiotics, etc.. The schools also have offered low cost health insurance too but most of those were catastrophic plans so might not be available anymore due to the ACA mandates. But check it out until you can find a way to get your Medicaid card or other insurance coverage.
Hi Rob: It should be clear to anyone who reads your posts that "it's all about you" is not a valid criticism.Ditto. While I don't share Rob's more socialist leanings - with the exception of Universal Healthcare - or agree with much of his views and political ideology, I see that what he wants is not just to better himself, but what he feels should be done for the betterment of everyone in the nation. He leans towards the socialist side (which is generally a collective ideology) of the spectrum while others lean more to the capitalist side - most of us are probably at different places along that spectrum or somewhere in the middle.
My male relatives all served, too. My father was wounded twice in the Pacific Theater. My nephew volunteered to serve in the Middle East. But unlike you, I'm disinclined to judge others for criticizing our government, or even for symbolically saluting one of our allies' flags. Freedom is not just a word; we're all free in this country to have opinions you don't like.This is exactly what I think serving your country means (at least it did for me) - to insure the freedom to believe what I want and say it out loud without fear. As the old saying goes "I don't like what you're saying but I'll defend your right to say it unto death".
Now as far as Rob, or anyone else, going to another country to live...well that is one solution. However I think staying to fight for what you believe in and trying to make changes is a better option. If Rob believes that we should have a more socialized political system for the betterment of all citizens, rather than just himself, then staying in the USA and trying to effect the changes he wants to see happen is a far better thing then just bugging out and becoming an ex-pat.
Spartana in 2016: you've got my vote!
Teacher Terry
1-5-14, 2:19pm
Rob, Arizona should have a computerized program that can tell you the job outlook for many occupations. If you go to a local state jobs office they will have it. In Nevada ours is called the nevada career information system and they made it so easy to use that a child could do it. OUrs gets updated every 6 months. Here there are no jobs for web designers. My good friend in Wis got this degree and has never been able to find employment although she is very good & does alot of volunteer work in this area hoping to build her portfolio. YOu should really check the local outlook before spending what little $ you have left.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 2:53pm
Rob, Arizona should have a computerized program that can tell you the job outlook for many occupations. If you go to a local state jobs office they will have it. In Nevada ours is called the nevada career information system and they made it so easy to use that a child could do it.
Yea I'm aware of such databases, it's ONE piece of information. I don't regard it as the be all and end all piece of information as those kinds of things tend to hide a lot (yea there are a lot of jobs but they only hire you if you have a masters degree, or are under 40, or have at least 5 years experience or whatever :~) - but sure it's one piece of information to take into account and if the data is any good at all then all other things held constant a job with a better outlook is better than one with an worse outlook - just the competition for it will be less insane). I wonder if such forecasts take into account potential future outsourcing. Haha, any insider in a field thinks about the potential of such things whether or not they admit it :)
If Rob believes that we should have a more socialized political system for the betterment of all citizens, rather than just himself, then staying in the USA and trying to effect the changes he wants to see happen is a far better thing then just bugging out and becoming an ex-pat.
I don't have an opinion on better. If one wants ANY changes to the status quo though, they won't come easy (and I've come to believe no changes, not even on environmental policy means the destruction of the world :( ). How hard was the 40 hour week fought for?
Hi Rob: It should be clear to anyone who reads your posts that "it's all about you" is not a valid criticism.
+1
Wow - so glad my uncle, brothers, and nephew fought in wars, one losing his life, another losing his sanity, so you can salute the Mexican flag. Why don't you go on and get out of this country you care so little about...and go live your idea of Utopia somewhere else. People like you make me ill - it's all ABOUT YOU!
Yarrow, seriously?!? We live in a pluralistic society. Many viewpoints, which gives this country its great strength. I get that views which are different from one's own can be aggravating, but to attempt to shame and castigate someone just because you disagree is hardly called for.
Teacher Terry
1-5-14, 7:30pm
I actually was looking forward to the ACA because I thought I could drop my retiree coverage thru a past employer but you can't do that. WE now pay $740/month & it will probably go up quite a bit in July. If you do that you do not get any subsidies unless your income is so low as to qualify for medicaid. Without the subsidies insurance is no cheaper. There are so many things they forgot to account for or maybe left out on purpose. According to the website we should not pay more then $475/month in regard to affordability. It is frustrating. We will never be able to fully retire while we have this huge expense. Good thing I don't want to right now.
The trick to choosing a vocation is trying to figure out which one our corporate masters will outsource next. Or if they can save money automating it. I guess something associated with health care is the best bet--or maybe growing and/or marketing marijuana. Or you could consider starting an office cleaning business...I tend to agree with bae that for most people, web design is pretty iffy. Frankly, I'd try to build up some kind of in-home business like eBay or Etsy, continue with the banquet business, and make a difference in your off hours. And frankly, I'd guess the quality of health care is mostly (except maybe for trauma care, which you wouldn't be using anyway) better in Mexico.
And frankly, I'd guess the quality of health care is mostly (except maybe for trauma care, which you wouldn't be using anyway) better in Mexico.
Rob is reaching the age where care for cardiac events and stroke is important...
My county, remote as it is, has one of the highest rates of return of spontaneous circulation in the country, 80%+.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22834854
I wonder what the rates are in the parts of Mexico Rob wants to live in?
(And trauma care is more important, and more common perhaps, than you think... Had a call today involving a fellow crushed between his vehicle and his home - brakes weren't set, vehicle rolled downhill, squished him, popped top half of him through a window. He lived due to prompt intervention and top-notch med-evac to a trauma care facility...)
Trauma care is the bright light in our failed medical system, IMO.
Trauma care is the bright light in our failed medical system, IMO.
yep, it's not the health care, it's the U.S. health care system, as I keep pointing out to some friends who can't seem to grok the difference.
Spartana in 2016: you've got my vote!Free ice cream for every vote :-)!! Of course the Ice-Cream-Tax I'll impose once I'm in office will be 80% :-)! OK OK 20% and you can keep the spoon!
I don't have an opinion on better. If one wants ANY changes to the status quo though, they won't come easy (and I've come to believe no changes, not even on environmental policy means the destruction of the world :( ). How hard was the 40 hour week fought for?"I have a dream!". OK so it's not easy to change the status quo but it's doable - and worthwhile imho to stay around and try to effect the changes one thinks are needed if you like everything else about the country you are living in. We have so many other worthwhile things is this country compared to others (including some of the more enlightened EU countries) that I think Rob should look at the whole USA picture and not just the healthcare issue when deciding to move to another country and make a decision on the whole rather than just one issue. And look at the whole picture of any other country he wants to move to and not just their healthcare system.
For those with means, I think fee-for-service is the way to go. You can choose your doctor and bypass the insurance companies--which can't then dictate your treatment. A lot of people do that anyway--they see naturopaths or other practitioners who aren't covered, or they're medical tourists.
Simply Divine
1-8-14, 2:04pm
If I were to become a web designer, I would
1) Save my money and learn everything from free online resources and my own sweat and tears.
2) Add other services to my belt, such as LAMP or Ajax or Rails or SQL or whatever is the trend these days.
3) Examine what employers want. If they want certifications, get those. If they want a portfolio, get that.
4) Be prepared to learn any and all new technologies henceforth at a drop of the hat.
5) Go to school for something else, like software engineering, mathematics, or computer science -- something theory-based where you get knowledge that won't expire with the next Java update.
ApatheticNoMore
1-8-14, 2:38pm
If I were to become a web designer, I would 1) Save my money and learn everything from free online resources and my own sweat and tears.
if you're going into massive debt yea, community colleges courses though are pretty affordable, some people prefer to learn things from classes. Personally, I probably would just take classes at night. Credentials sometimes mean something, it depends. I don't think they are magic. Lots of sweat and tears to save what do community college courses cost nowdays? Can't imagine it's much. I end up teaching myself stuff because I can't find classes anyway. Noone teaches stuff I'm trying to learn. And it annoys me that I have to resort to that. I'd rather take classes.
5) Go to school for something else, like software engineering, mathematics, or computer science -- something theory-based where you get knowledge that won't expire with the next Java update.
yea then you'll have nice credentials and a good education, but you're going to hit age discrimination. If you're going to go to that level of retraining, spend years at it in school and so on, frankly unless youv'e discovered it's your long buried passion I'd recommend another field .
Simply Divine
1-8-14, 2:46pm
if you're going into massive debt yea, community colleges courses though are pretty affordable, some people prefer to learn things from classes. Personally, I probably would just take classes at night. Credentials sometimes mean something, it depends. I don't think they are magic. Lots of sweat and tears to save what do community college courses cost nowdays? Can't imagine it's much. I end up teaching myself stuff because I can't find classes anyway. Noone teaches stuff I'm trying to learn. And it annoys me that I have to resort to that. I'd rather take classes.
yea then you'll have nice credentials and a good education, but you're going to hit age discrimination. If you're going to go to that level of retraining, spend years at it in school and so on, frankly unless youv'e discovered it's your long burried passion I'd recommend another field .
He's going to hit age discrimination with web design, too. By the way, there are community colleges that offer degrees with specializations in computer science and such. I would just go online for web design because the schools will be teaching outdated technological information. If it's technology and it's in a textbook, it's outdated. That's why I say, go to school for the theory and learn the tech on your own time.
yea then you'll have nice credentials and a good education, but you're going to hit age discrimination.
One of the reasons I got out of the computer-science/engineering field in my mid-30s was that I looked around and saw precious few people in their 40s who hadn't been pushed into marginal maintenance tracks, or forced into management/sales/marketing. And observing the hiring process for hundreds of engineering candidates a year, anyone past a certain age had a very difficult time making it through, all other things being equalish.
Simply Divine
1-8-14, 6:07pm
One of the reasons I got out of the computer-science/engineering field in my mid-30s was that I looked around and saw precious few people in their 40s who hadn't been pushed into marginal maintenance tracks, or forced into management/sales/marketing. And observing the hiring process for hundreds of engineering candidates a year, anyone past a certain age had a very difficult time making it through, all other things being equalish.
One of the reasons why I decided not to do a computer science major was because I was at best ignored, or I faced just blatant comments about my gender and incompetence because I am a female, from teachers and students alike. I don't understand why people ask why there aren't many women in computer science and engineering. The answer is "Because they get treated like #$%^ and decide to go elsewhere."
One of the reasons why I decided not to do a computer science major was because I was at best ignored, or I faced just blatant comments about my gender and incompetence because I am a female, from teachers and students alike.
That too :-(
One of the reasons why I decided not to do a computer science major was because I was at best ignored, or I faced just blatant comments about my gender and incompetence because I am a female, from teachers and students alike. I don't understand why people ask why there aren't many women in computer science and engineering. The answer is "Because they get treated like #$%^ and decide to go elsewhere."I was fortunate to have many great and positive experiences and lots of encouragement with male teachers, students and co-workers alike when I worked in or trained for (what was then and probably still is now) very physically hard traditionally male dominated type jobs. And if they picked on me they also picked on my fellow male co-workers just as much and guys can be pretty brutal trashing other guys. But then I also figured if I was ticking some guy off because of the type of work I was doing...well then I must be doing something right and it just made me want to do that job all the more. Guess I kind of like being a pain in the butt and upsetting the status-quo :-)!
Yarrow, seriously?!? We live in a pluralistic society. Many viewpoints, which gives this country its great strength. I get that views which are different from one's own can be aggravating, but to attempt to shame and castigate someone just because you disagree is hardly called for.
My apologies. But when my dearly loved brother died fighting for this country it is heartbreaking beyond belief to hear a fellow American say they salute the Mexican flag, all the while also expecting this country to provide for him. Mindboggling....
gimmethesimplelife
1-15-14, 12:14am
My apologies. But when my dearly loved brother died fighting for this country it is heartbreaking beyond belief to hear a fellow American say they salute the Mexican flag, all the while also expecting this country to provide for him. Mindboggling....I can respect the fact that your brother made the ultimate sacrifice in dying for this country and in no way do I mean to disrespect him or anyone else for that matter who has entered the military and taken those kinds of risks. The simple fact of the matter is this: I CANT AFFORD HEALTH CARE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. And I did not mean to scream that, honestly. I thought I'd made this clear before.
I have lived in fear of America since I was very young and learned of social classes and that truly not all are created equal. I would salute the flag of any country at this point that provided me with access to affordable, non-bankruptcy causing health care. In this case it is Mexico, as I live a little over three hours from the border. My salute of the Mexican flag for it's country providing me access to affordable health care is in no way meant to offend you or take from your brother's bravery or sacrifice. I find it mindboggling myself that someone would not understand why I would salute the flag of a country that provides me with access to affordable health care while my own does not.....Rob
PS About expecting this country to provide for me - any other country in the developed first world provides some structure of access to health care for it's citizenry. America alone does not - but at least some efforts towards this goal are taking place via ObamaCare, though for some it's debatable that ObamaCare serves them well by being affordable, I'll grant that much. I don't think it's wrong to comparison shop what is on offer in the US vs. what is on offer in other countries regarding access to health care, which I consider a basic human right and a component of basic human dignity. I can understand there are those who will disagree with this, and indeed all have that right. But this is my reality and on this one I don't budge.
My apologies. But when my dearly loved brother died fighting for this country it is heartbreaking beyond belief to hear a fellow American say they salute the Mexican flag, all the while also expecting this country to provide for him. Mindboggling....
I saw this cartoon image and thought of you Yarrow.I don't necessarily agree with the cartoon but thought it fit your comments very well.
I do feel like you do though but am happy to see that others in this country have the freedom to express themselves. That IS what your brother fought for! Like Rob, I would love to see universal healthcare in this country. But unlike him, I look at the total freedoms and opportunities we have here in this country and not just one issue (healthcare) alone. As a single woman I feel blessed to be able to move freely in my life, to be considered equal to all other people, to be able to vote, hold any job I want, own property, drive a car, live, work and interact with men rather than be segregated, wear what I want, live where I want, practice my own religious beliefs (or not) and do all those things that women (as well as minorities and homosexuals) are often prohibited from in some other countries. Those freedoms are of far greater value to me than just affordable health insurance. So yes, I will happily salute the American flag and honor those, like your brother, who have ensured those freedoms for me
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1370&d=1390516410
I saw this cartoon image and thought of you Yarrow.I don't necessarily agree with the cartoon but thought it fit your comments very well.
I do feel like you do though but am happy to see that others in this country have the freedom to express themselves. That IS what your brother fought for! Like Rob, I would love to see universal healthcare in this country. But unlike him, I look at the total freedoms and opportunities we have here in this country and not just one issue (healthcare) alone. As a single woman I feel blessed to be able to move freely in my life, to be considered equal to all other people, to be able to vote, hold any job I want, own property, drive a car, live, work and interact with men rather than be segregated, wear what I want, live where I want, practice my own religious beliefs (or not) and do all those things that women (as well as minorities and homosexuals) are often prohibited from in some other countries. Those freedoms are of far greater value to me than just affordable health insurance. So yes, I will happily salute the American flag and honor those, like your brother, who have ensured those freedoms for me
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1370&d=1390516410
Spartana, thank you so much for your understanding and kind words. I so appreciate it and it means so much to me!
I, like you, am so very thankful for the same things that you have spoke of here. I will always believe that the USA is the greatest country in the world! I just wish more people appreciated it and all of those that gave their lives for our freedoms.... Sure healthcare is not perfect here, but I've heard from many in other countries that their healthcare needs aren't being taken care of adequately in spite of it being provided by their governments. And what everyone needs to remember is they pay much higher prices/taxes for food, gasoline, etc. than we do. In all reality, they are paying for their own healthcare too which can often be substandard.
I, personally am now living on SS disability and Medicaid due to being completely disabled by MS. Thank God, this safety net exists for me and others who can no longer physically work here in the USA. I am forever grateful!!! But I do not think that an able bodied person should receive free healthcare, etc. when they are capable of earning the money to pay for it themselves. I would give anything to be able to work and pay for my own healthcare!
I have no objection to paying for my healthcare--my doctor should be paid, the labs that do the tests should be paid, etc. What I have trouble with is the insurance companies. They take my money and from what I can tell don't provide me with any benefit. IMHO.
iris lilies
1-24-14, 10:44am
I have no objection to paying for my healthcare--my doctor should be paid, the labs that do the tests should be paid, etc. What I have trouble with is the insurance companies. They take my money and from what I can tell don't provide me with any benefit. IMHO.
Seriously? C'mon, Florence, you know how insurance works.
The company that insures your house has been taking your money for years and years, and the benefit you got is: repair or replacement if it is gutted in a fire.
You got coverage.
gimmethesimplelife
1-28-14, 12:30am
I have no objection to paying for my healthcare--my doctor should be paid, the labs that do the tests should be paid, etc. What I have trouble with is the insurance companies. They take my money and from what I can tell don't provide me with any benefit. IMHO.Interesting take. With all my numerous issues with US healthcare, I really have not looked much at the insurance company angle - meaning how insurance companies complicate the equation with their need to make profits. I know that US health care is very much profits over people - that is not news to me - but interestingly enough I have spared insurance companies in my criticisms. Good point you make here. Rob
In my opinion, the first thing we should do to fix the health care racket is to marginalize the insurance industry. Because medicine is a for-profit business, unnecessary costs are inserted all along the way--$20 aspirins and $70 light bulbs are routine. No one would stand for that if they were paying directly.
Another bright ray of hope today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/healthcaregov-cant-handle-appeals-of-enrollment-errors/2014/02/02/bbf5280c-89e2-11e3-916e-e01534b1e132_story.html
HealthCare.gov can’t handle appeals of enrollment errors
By Amy Goldstein, Published: February 2 E-mail the writer
Tens of thousands of people who discovered that HealthCare.gov made mistakes as they were signing up for a health plan are confronting a new roadblock: The government cannot yet fix the errors.
Roughly 22,000 Americans have filed appeals with the government to try to get mistakes corrected, according to internal government data obtained by The Washington Post. They contend that the computer system for the new federal online marketplace charged them too much for health insurance, steered them into the wrong insurance program or denied them coverage entirely.
For now, the appeals are sitting, untouched, inside a government computer. And an unknown number of consumers who are trying to get help through less formal means — by calling the health-care marketplace directly — are told that HealthCare.gov’s computer system is not yet allowing federal workers to go into enrollment records and change them, according to individuals inside and outside the government who are familiar with the situation.
“It is definitely frustrating and not fair,” said Addie Wilson, 27, who lives in Fairmont, W.Va., and earns $22,000 a year working with at-risk families. She said that she is paying $100 a month more than she should for her insurance and that her deductible is $4,000 too high.
When Wilson logged on to HealthCare.gov in late December, she needed coverage right away. Her old insurance was ending, and she was to have gallbladder surgery in January. But the Web site would not calculate the federal subsidy to which she knew she was entitled. Terrified to go without coverage, Wilson phoned a federal call center and took the advice she was given: Pay the full price now and appeal later.
Now she is stuck.
“I hope,” she said, “they really work on getting this fixed.”
The Obama administration has not made public the fact that the appeals system for the online marketplace is not working. In recent weeks, legal advocates have been pressing administration officials, pointing out that rules for the online marketplace, created by the 2010 Affordable Care Act, guarantee due-process rights to timely hearings for Americans who think they have been improperly denied insurance or subsidies.
But at the moment, “there is no indication that infrastructure . . . necessary for conducting informal reviews and fair hearings has even been created, let alone become operational,” attorneys at the National Health Law Program said in a late-December letter to leaders of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), the agency that oversees HealthCare.gov. The attorneys, who have been trying to exert leverage quietly behind the scenes, did not provide the letter to The Post but confirmed that they had sent it.
A CMS spokesman, Aaron Albright, said, “We are working to fully implement the appeals system.”
Three knowledgeable individuals, speaking on the condition of anonymity about internal discussions, said it is unclear when the appeals process will become available. So far, it is not among the top priorities for completing parts of the federal insurance exchange’s computer system that still do not work. Those include an electronic payment system for insurers, the computerized exchange of enrollment information with state Medicaid programs, and the ability to adjust people’s coverage to accommodate new babies and other major changes in life circumstance.
The exchange is supposed to allow consumers who want to file appeals to do so by computer, phone or mail. But only mail is available. The roughly 22,000 people who have appealed to date have filled out a seven-page form and mailed it to a federal contractor’s office in Kentucky, where the forms are scanned and then transferred to a computer system at CMS. For now, that is where the process stops. The part of the computer system that would allow agency workers to read and handle appeals has not been built, according to individuals familiar with the situation.
In the meantime, CMS is telling consumers with complaints about mistakes to return to the Web site and start over. “We are inviting those consumers back to HealthCare.gov, where they can reset and successfully finish their applications without needing to complete the appeals process,” said Albright, the agency spokesman. The rationale is that, since the computer system is working better now, it’s less likely to make mistakes.
Agency officials have no way of knowing how many people have taken that advice, according to two individuals familiar with the situation. The computer system containing the scanned appeals forms cannot yet communicate with HealthCare.gov’s enrollment database, so it is impossible to cross-check the information.
Across the country, a few specialists trained to help people enroll in the health plans point to examples in which withdrawing an application and starting over has solved the problem. But that is not a solution for everyone.
Starting over would not help Addie Wilson, for example, because she has already begun to pay for her new insurance and would have no way to get her money back. A few days before Christmas, Wilson was hospitalized with what turned out to be a gallbladder so infected that doctors inserted a drain so it would be safer by the time they operated — the first surgery of her life. She needed a health plan because her employer, the organization Home Base, was cutting off the Blue Cross-Blue Shield coverage she and her co-workers had, reasoning that they could find better choices on the new marketplace.
Given her salary, Wilson knew she was eligible for federal subsidies to help pay for her coverage. She was discharged from the hospital on Dec. 23, the insurance sign-up deadline; she did not yet know that CMS had quietly reset its computers to give people one more day to enroll. It had been weeks since the Obama administration had announced that the system was working smoothly, so she could not understand why the HealthCare.gov screen on her laptop, which should have calculated her subsidy, stubbornly refused to appear. She asked her boyfriend to try on his computer and her father to try on his. Nothing worked.
She called HealthCare.gov’s toll-free number, where, she said, a woman on the other end tried typing and then told her, “Well, it’s not working for me either.” The woman recommended that she choose a health plan at the too-high price and file an appeal. Since her Blue Cross coverage would end Dec. 31, she went back onto HealthCare.gov and picked a plan.
A failure to compute a subsidy is among a variety of mistakes the computer system has made. Another involves what some CMS and state Medicaid officials refer to as “loopers.” These are people who applied for coverage on HealthCare.gov and were told that their income was low enough to qualify for Medicaid. But when they went to their state Medicaid agency, they were told they were not eligible after all, and should get a private health plan through the marketplace. So they have “looped” back to the federal system, which is unable to fix the mistake.
The letter from the National Health Law Program describes families who are appealing for other reasons. In one instance, a North Carolina couple were told that they were eligible for subsidies to buy private policies and that their son was eligible for the Children’s Health Insurance Program, which is public insurance for children of working-class families. But the computer told them that their daughter was eligible for nothing — an obvious mistake. At the time of the letter, the family was uninsured while waiting for a decision on its appeal.
In Fairmont, Wilson is waiting, too. In early January, she contacted her new health plan about her missing subsidy and asked what to do. She was told to pay the full insurance premium — $215 a month. She did. The next day, Brandon Williams, an enrollment counselor at a local health clinic, helped her check HealthCare.gov again. This time, the computer worked properly and showed that, with the subsidy, her monthly premium should be just $106 and her yearly deductible $617, not $4,750.
Wilson and Williams called the online marketplace and, after three hours on the phone, got only a promise from a supervisor that Wilson would hear from CMS’s “advance resolution team” within five days. The call didn’t come.
Wilson’s scheduled outpatient surgery turned into an expensive, five-day hospital stay after her doctors discovered her gallbladder had gangrene. Home after the ordeal, and dreading the hospital bill and her big deductible, Wilson called Williams, and they tried to reach the advance resolution team. They couldn’t get through. When the call from the team finally came, she said, a knowledgeable-sounding man told her, “The system is not set up to go into someone’s account and correct a mistake.”
With Williams’s help, she has filed an appeal. And she is waiting — waiting to be healed enough to drive so she can go back to work, waiting for someone to decide that she deserves her money back.
“These little kinks should have been worked out prior to this thing being launched,” she said. “This is one more thing stressing me out.”
Yarrow, seriously?!? We live in a pluralistic society. Many viewpoints, which gives this country its great strength. I get that views which are different from one's own can be aggravating, but to attempt to shame and castigate someone just because you disagree is hardly called for.
+1
I can respect the fact that your brother made the ultimate sacrifice in dying for this country and in no way do I mean to disrespect him or anyone else for that matter who has entered the military and taken those kinds of risks. The simple fact of the matter is this: I CANT AFFORD HEALTH CARE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. And I did not mean to scream that, honestly. I thought I'd made this clear before.
I have lived in fear of America since I was very young and learned of social classes and that truly not all are created equal. I would salute the flag of any country at this point that provided me with access to affordable, non-bankruptcy causing health care. In this case it is Mexico, as I live a little over three hours from the border. My salute of the Mexican flag for it's country providing me access to affordable health care is in no way meant to offend you or take from your brother's bravery or sacrifice. I find it mindboggling myself that someone would not understand why I would salute the flag of a country that provides me with access to affordable health care while my own does not.....Rob
PS About expecting this country to provide for me - any other country in the developed first world provides some structure of access to health care for it's citizenry. America alone does not - but at least some efforts towards this goal are taking place via ObamaCare, though for some it's debatable that ObamaCare serves them well by being affordable, I'll grant that much. I don't think it's wrong to comparison shop what is on offer in the US vs. what is on offer in other countries regarding access to health care, which I consider a basic human right and a component of basic human dignity. I can understand there are those who will disagree with this, and indeed all have that right. But this is my reality and on this one I don't budge.
+1
gimmethesimplelife
2-3-14, 10:46pm
I just wanted to post here - today I called the HMO I was assigned here in Arizona for the Medicaid I was just approved for. I gotta say I am indeed impressed!!!!! This is Monday and I have an appointment on Thursday, 2/6. I am utterly stunned to get in that quickly. I am going to try to get a few physical therapy sessions for my back - this I have to go to the PCP for and it has to be approved but I'm going to make the case that it's cheaper long run for me to exercise it away than to pill it away. Hopefully, that will work. But so far, so good. I just wanted to post this as I read Bae's post above and although ObamaCare is now working for me, I still "get it". There are still issues that need to be addressed BIG TIME here. Rob
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