View Full Version : Tiger Mother
At dinner last night, DH told me about this book: Tiger Mother. (http://www.npr.org/2011/01/11/132833376/tiger-mothers-raising-children-the-chinese-way) Have you heard of it? The author says that some cultures/races are simply far superior at parenting than others. Of course, typical American, Western parenting styles, which use feel-good, self-esteem strategies, is at the bottom of the heap.
According to her, Chinese mothers are the best, followed by Jewish, Indian, Iranian, Lebanese-American, Nigerian, Cuban exiles, and Mormons.
This is because of three main things:
1) They, as a race, feel superior to others. This sense of superiority is a driving force in general, as history shows in many different ways. People who feel superior generally just get things done. Past civilizations and many successful religions have proven the power of feeiings of superiority. This is exactly opposite of a liberal, everyone is equal, stance. And of course, even the author says that this attitude has caused all the wars and genocides.
2) Insecurity: this seems paradoxical to superiority, but it seems that the Chinese mother's job is to make her child feel insecure--by demanding nothing less that academic perfection. Insults and punishments are fair game to get the child to excel. A- is not good enough. Silver medals are not good enough.
3) Impulse Control. Instilling delayed gratification is key. Not surprisingly, she sees American parents as sorely lacking in this as well.
So what do you think?? Are Western parents too lax? Is the self-esteem movement counter-productive? Are we, as Western-syle parents, contributing to the downfall of America?
What does a Simple Living Parent do? Do we even care about these desired outcomes of success in the eyes of the world? What are the ultimate goals for the Simple Living Parent in terms of raising children.
I find this to be very provocative, in spite of its obvious racism. I think the author's pride in telling people that she has called her children "garbage" to their face, or "Lose some weight, Fatty!" is really pretty appalling. But on the other hand, I also think we've gone too far in the self-esteem/give the kid whatever he/she wants department.
My mother was a very gentle, loving, praising mom. I could do no wrong. But I did go to Catholic school, where the nuns were like Chinese moms. I can't say I was psychically harmed by being insulted, humiliated, and even physically "corrected." In fact, I value my experience at Catholic school in many ways.
My father was very strict--and also somewhat like a Chinese mother--told me he was ashamed of me once for using the black without mixing it with a color in a painting I had done (black is not a color--black is the absence of color, and it does not exist in nature). He also never let me choose library books with any pictures in them, even when I was first learning to read. So, I've had some experience with both parenting styles. I have no conclusion about it, but this book does have me thinking.
Your thoughts and experiences?
Her practices were much too brutal for me. I am just a softie at heart and couldn't be otherwise. YMMV.
There were a few articles about this book in the NYTimes last year. Her style is not for me. Not AT ALL.
Are some parents too permissive? Yes.
Are some parents too strict? Yes.
And I would bet that in any culture, there is a range of parenting styles.
All parents are learning as they go. They do the best they can. No one's perfect. I have learned more being a parent than doing anything else I ever did in my life - and not just about parenting, but also about human nature, personalities, learning styles, the impacts of food and sleep, early symptoms of illnesses (DD can't do math a day before she visibly comes down with a cold), etc.
I agree that her parenting style is not one that I would be remotely comfortable with. I think my major problem, aside from the tactics she employed to get the most out of her kids, was the idea that only academic success is important in life. It reminds me of Stephen Covey's "ladder against the wrong wall" idea. She wouldn't let her children act in a school play. I count my Drama Club experiences as among the most fulfilling experience of my life on a number of levels. What about nurturing all the different types of intelligences there are? Don't those count?
Honestly, I think pursuing academic success at the exclusion of all other experiences in life is way, way too one-dimensional. So the book turns me off right at the faulty premise that life is only valuable in proportion to the grades/outward success you have.
new2oregon
1-5-14, 10:23am
Catherine, you asked what does a simple living parent do? The best thing I did as a father was to be there for them. I taught them to enjoy nature, grow your own food, cook, and value simple things. I also told them to be themselves, follow their dreams and not feel like they have to be like everyone else. I learn't as I went and did not raise them all the same. I made mistakes as I should have involved them in sports, music etc. more but my parents didn't raise me that way. I'm lucky because I have 4 great kids that I am proud of. I think we learn from our parents mistakes. My Father was very strict and wouldn't support things I wanted to do. He taught me the way he was raised. I know I did the best I knew how to. I went to catholic school too and those Nuns kept control of the class.
The book sounds interesting and the I know what you mean about the chinese culture. They have a high drive and some very good points but I am learning that sometimes they value money over a quality of life .
My dad was never satisfied with A- either. High expectations, lectures if i disagreed with him, not allowed to make my own way.
I was valedictorian, got best musician award, on and on. And I am still recovering today at age 52. Tiger parenting might give short term results in some kids. But my life work as a psych nurse continues to validate my opinion as I see people struggle throughout life with their tiger parents.
I believe tiger parents produce good citizens for their empires to continue their bastions of superiority. But it creates pain for the individual psyche.
I left home at 19 to get married and have been making my own way ever since. Often to the consternation of my parents.
I don't have problem with setting high expectations, and I do think impulse control is a good thing to learn, but I don't agree with that method at all.
What do you do when the 2 parents are like 2 different cultures? I demanded more from my kids, yet showed them love. I expected more from them and they new it. DH didn't do any of the disciplining, unfortunately......and it made me look like a meanie. Although I did show them tons of love too. DH's "culture" of parenting really did undermine my "culture". It was very frustrating. As they got older, he did lots of things for them......sports/science fair, help with business, etc...........but never a verbal expectation of behavior. I think he confuses "discipline" with "not showing love"........or something like that.
Now, they are great, wonderful kids.........
I think if I had been the only "culture", they would have missed out on alot, and if DH had been the only "culture", they would have been different people too.
So I think it has to be a balance. But yes, our culture has become waaaaay too lenient in almost every area............but some of that comes from higher up (government rules/societies demands) and the parent's raising of the children. Then.....there is a small genetic component.
For some reason.......I was thinking about the state of affairs in Japan after the Tsunami.........there was NO looting, and everyone waited quietly and patiently in line for food/water, etc.
I think that speaks highly of them. (although they aren't listed in the above list of best parents). Then again.........Iranian mothers are mentioned too............which raises some interesting questions.....
iris lilies
1-5-14, 11:39am
I was just thinking of the Tiger Mother book the other day. I was watching a dumb tv reality show where a young woman, blond, not-so-pretty and uneducated said something like "I'm going to be a trophy wife!" and I immediately thought: no, honey, you will never be a trophy wife. Trophy wives are those gorgeous tiny Asian women who are perfectly manicured and coiffed, they can speak 3 languages, can play piano/violin nearly at professional levels, and they work professionally as physicians or pharmacists or engineers. Now THAT is a trophy wife produced by those Tiger Moms!
My parents were pretty good at achieving a balance of setting expectations vs encouraging us to find our inner muse. My parents had their own lives and interests, and being one of those parents who hover around the children to produce super achievers wasn't their interest in life. Tiger Moms' lives are consumed by parenting, there is no down time for them.
Gardenarian
1-5-14, 3:14pm
This book was discussed exhaustively in the homeschooling community. To my surprise, many parents thought her methods were sound.
I think it sounds like a miserable way to live.
The ultimate goal of this form of parenting seems to be not wisdom, enlightenment, happiness, or knowledge, but to get your kids pushed up the social ladder.
Nope, not for me!
I think it also trains children to respond to extrinsic motivation and rewards; they may never learn to be intrinsically motivated, or to place their own value on their efforts and results. I set high standards for dd, but not as high as she sets for herself.
(As for the girl who wants to be a 'trophy wife' - ewww! What kind of warped ambition is that? It's one thing to want to be a homemaker - another thing entirely to turn yourself into a toy.)
Ranking mothering by race strikes me as ridiculous, and racist.
Gardenarian
1-5-14, 3:39pm
Ranking mothering by race strikes me as ridiculous, and racist.
Agreed; it is the author of the book who brings in race.
Among the homeschool parents I know, race seems to have little or nothing to do with parenting/educational style. Now if they were to look at the AGE of the parents, I could make some pretty accurate generalizations - but race? Nope.
ApatheticNoMore
1-5-14, 3:50pm
Have you heard of it? The author says that some cultures/races are simply far superior at parenting than others. Of course, typical American, Western parenting styles, which use feel-good, self-esteem strategies, is at the bottom of the heap.
I doubt I'd agree with the measure of superior. And yea that's what typical American Western parenting is like, child abuse doesn't exist, physical beatings, sexual abuse, corporal punishment, none of those things happen >8). They've all been completely eliminated from our society - whew.
According to her, Chinese mothers are the best, followed by Jewish, Indian, Iranian, Lebanese-American, Nigerian, Cuban exiles, and Mormons.
I frankly doubt she has the most basic qualifications to speak about that. Ok, what is her training in early childhood development? While there may be differences in opinion, and a certain amount of subjectivity in social science studies and they have been wrong, these are all better sources for actual data than one woman's entirely unqualified (any training at all even?) opinion. It's not all about saying controversial things with no qualifications and selling books (well maybe it is ..). Peer review, what's that?
1) They, as a race, feel superior to others. This sense of superiority is a driving force in general, as history shows in many different ways. People who feel superior generally just get things done. Past civilizations and many successful religions have proven the power of feeiings of superiority. This is exactly opposite of a liberal, everyone is equal, stance. And of course, even the author says that this attitude has caused all the wars and genocides.
It's also an illusion (one may be objectively better at this or that skill, but if one thinks one is universally so - I'd say your in delusion land my friend - one I believe arises out of certain psychological needs but that is my opinion). And it's a source of cognitive error of course - while lack of self-esteem is it's own psychological trap, overconfidence leads to certain types of cognitive errors - there are studies on this. If whole cultures engage in it then mass delusion ....
2) Insecurity: this seems paradoxical to superiority, but it seems that the Chinese mother's job is to make her child feel insecure--by demanding nothing less that academic perfection. Insults and punishments are fair game to get the child to excel. A- is not good enough. Silver medals are not good enough.
ok maybe that leads to excelling but without any psychological toll? That's what needs to be shown ....
So what do you think?? Are Western parents too lax?
are children still beaten?
Is the self-esteem movement counter-productive? Are we, as Western-syle parents, contributing to the downfall of America?
I think the self esteem movement is mostly *empty*, because I don't think self-esteem actually works just by telling people how good they are, and that is my opinion. But sure a loving environment may contribute to self-esteem.
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I expect to spend my life sorting out my childhood (it's ok I'm not monomania on the thing and childhood isn't everything). There was minor sexual abuse (very minor on the scale of things but overtly sexual). There was rare eruptions of violent anger that came out of nowhere (had to get sewed up once - had to lie and blame it on a sibling to protect them - felt sorry for that poor little innocent sibling getting the blame) - they were RARE, but they were untempered by any ahem frontal lobe activity? :~) Teaches you people have a scary out of control side. There was occasional but rare spankings - they were minor and half hearted, we weren't beaten brutally or anything. There was verbal abuse by means of telling us kids we weren't wanted (sorry for living :( ). There was an expectation we do well in school and the rest of our lives were ignored. We had to do well in school and none of the rest of our personality mattered, but it wasn't a demand for perfection and straight A's - just get mostly A's and B's - why because that's whats expected of you. There was noone to turn to if you needed advice in any area of life but school work. You were on your own, raise yourself buddy. Still they did prepare us pretty well for schoolwork ... There were guilt trips for not living up to harsh moral standards. We were fed and housed.
I was under the impression that when you consistently tell someone they are good/great/excellent in a general way, it actually makes them insecure, whereas if you point out specific tasks/decisions they did well, it builds self-esteem. I have often wondered if this is what people like the author are getting at. I also had heard the author's younger daughter had a lot of issues with this and rebelled bigtime. There are a lot of suicides among high-pressure societies: teens sometimes respond to these tactics by feeling worthless if they fail.
ApatheticNoMore
1-6-14, 12:08am
I also had heard the author's younger daughter had a lot of issues with this and rebelled bigtime.
good for her :)
oh, I seldom heard a word of praise for anything (being or doing), I'm glad to hear my self-esteem was not endangered - whew close one.
Tiger Mom was very provocative and controversial. I too was raised Catholic. But I have fond memories of the nuns. But there is a guilt aspect to Catholicism, a strict adherence and obedience and self worth thing that I carry away from being Catholic. I don't like the ever present feelings of self guilt for everything, but I was definitely instilled with a form of obedience to others. Which comes out in some passive aggressive rebellion I think. I don't know if I have an opinion about Tiger Mom, not having read it, but there is definitely a point to be made about what practices create the highest form of drive and motivation in individuals.
I was under the impression that when you consistently tell someone they are good/great/excellent in a general way, it actually makes them insecure, whereas if you point out specific tasks/decisions they did well, it builds self-esteem.
I agree with that.. it's downright embarrassing to get empty praise, IMO. I remember one Halloween my mother bought me a regular box costume for a Halloween parade at school. They were giving prizes, and the judges put me up on the stage as one of the semi-finalists. I was so embarrassed because it was just a stupid box costume.
Now I wonder if that experience has anything to do with the fact that when I had my own kids I spent sleepless nights making them each their own really cool, creative costumes for Halloween. When they got prizes, I know darn well they deserved them!
Miss Cellane
1-6-14, 9:25am
First, you have to define what a good parent is. I suspect many cultures will have their own definition of that.
Then you have to define what "raising a child well" means, and what the final result, which I'm guessing is the success/failure of the adult the child becomes, is.
What is success in one culture--a polite, well-to-do adult child who respects traditions and honors their parents and doesn't shame the family--could be failure in another society which values aggressive free-thinkers who take risks and shun traditions for the new and untried.
It's all values. And once you start talking about values--each culture creates their own. They will argue for them, fight for them. But what makes them values important to their society is that the culture as a whole has decided that these values are important. And once you realize that, you realize that *any* parenting could, depending on the value scale, be considered great, successful parenting. It all depends on the desired outcome and whether or not you get there.
I think it also trains children to respond to extrinsic motivation and rewards
One of the things I tried to instill in my own dd starting with her Montessori education was a sense of self-direction and flexibility. As a grownup, she continues to amaze me with her ability to chart her own course and bend to situations as needed(most of the time anyway). A sad example of parental expectations is an Indian woman I work with. Her two children, raised in America, and now near 20 have both "disappointed" their parents. The daughter chose a social work field of study and the son dropped out of college after being pushed to start at age 16. Their mom comes to me to cry and say that American culture was stronger than their wishes and that she has not yet shared their lack of success with her own parents back in India due to shame.
I was (am) far from being a perfect parent, but neither daughter could accuse me of not being loving or would characterize my mothering style as brutal. The Tiger Mom strikes me as both. IMHO she is more interested in her child's success as a reflection of herself than in her child's emotional welfare. Racist and extreme. There's a happy medium in there somewhere.
ApatheticNoMore
1-6-14, 2:11pm
IMHO she is more interested in her child's success as a reflection of herself than in her child's emotional welfare.
that's exactly it. I mean sure you can achieve any definition of success whatever and that may cultural, but what about emotional welfare? All other things held constant one's emotional welfare may be greater in achieving whatever that societies norm of success is (uh yea there's plenty of correlations there at least in HEAVILY hierarchical stratified societies) but is that really the whole enchilada?
It's like she's trying to turn her kids into little success machines (lady why don't YOU achieve? why do you channel it all through your kids?) regardless of whether they are happy. It's of course obvious that you can achieve endlessly and not be happy (and there are exceptions to this but the constant quest for super-high achievement will also tend to preclude any self-reflection, hmm maybe that's convenient). They may be grateful they learned how to play piano, but not for constantly hearing putdowns in their heads.
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