Spotted owls........what do you think about this...........from NPR

[CathyA]

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/15/262735123/to-save-threatened-owl-another-species-is-shot

[Jilly]

I think, and keep in mind that I am dumb, that everything of this kind that we do has an unintended consequence. Good intentions aside, the results are often not what we intend.

I live in a part of the country that eliminated the wolf population. With that big predator gone, the balance of animals that the land can support changed enough to cause other problems as white-tailed deer and a few other animals (cannot remember which ones right now) prospered and caused problems similar to the ones for which some people thought the wolves responsible.

Here in the very upper Midwest, browsing animals are causing greater losses to farmers that those caused by the wolves. Now that wolves have been re-introduced, a very long and torturous program, land-owners, including farmers, are upset by the wolves and now wolves can be hunted and trapped. Even with that, there were factions pro and con for using dogs as part of hunting the wolves.

As for the owls, did not the original decreases in population come about as the result of human action of some kind? Now, more human intervention is needed to assist in those original unintended consequences.

This is probably digressing, but here, in the upper Midwest, far from their natural and traditional habitat, I am able to see coyotes every day that I leave my house, withing ten city blocks of where I now live. I live in a suburban area before I moved, and I saw them every single day. There was a female that hunted in my yard. I remember the first time I saw her. I had come out my back door and saw a dog, and being fond of dogs and often finding them on my property, I called to her. Here doggie. Hey, girl. Who's a good dog?

Then, she turned and looked at me and I carefully backed into the house. I felt a little sorry for the rabbits, but the farmers around us found them to be better mousers than cats or terriers. Unfortunately, the coyotes were also fond of cats and small-to-medium sized dogs.

I love seeing the coyotes here in Wisconsin, and whilst their hunting is allowed unlimited statewide, it is only time before they will be hunted right here, downtown, as well.

I truly do not have any strong opinions about wild animal management, it is just that it seems such a shame that we find ourselves with these difficult and often confusing situations.

[CeciliaW]

Jilly,

Please don't use the term "dumb' to negate your point. Your post is well written and covers many valid points. Don't run yourself down for voicing an opinion.

Cecilia

[iris lilies]

I think, and keep in mind that I am dumb, that everything of this kind that we do has an unintended consequence. Good intentions aside, the results are often not what we intend.

.
Unintended consequences indeed. Did you see that film about the Australian toads, the toads that were imported to Austalia to take care of--whatever, can't remember? It was a biological control gone bad.They have TAKEN OVER parts of Aus, They are huge things.
I actually like toads a lot but this film demonstrated how creepy an overpopulation of one species can be.

In my urban 'nabe we've got a coyote who has been rumored to live here for several years. There was a big bru-ha-ha about it a few months ago, with people expressing fear about their small children, their cats, and their small dogs and others saying oh don't worry, the coyote will not bother you.
I'm glad that my cats are all indoor cats.

[CathyA]

I agree Jilly. Even though this guy's intentions might be good, there is so much involved here, that has been "messed" with, that its hard to know what is up or down, right or wrong.
He might be trying to do a good thing, and think that he is righting a wrong, but everything is so out of balance.....who knows for sure what he's doing.
He thinks he's just making things the way it should have been.....had the logging not been done. But who's to say.

I hate to sound so pessimistic, but nature has been so tampered with, I'm not sure our attempts to right things (even in one small area) will have good endings.
Nature is so much more complicated and intricate that we can imagine.

[Jilly]

Toad, huh? I just browsed and read an article about them on Australian Museum's site. Scary. It seems that there are sufficient predators to keep them in check in the Americas, but it sure is a mess in AU. I will look for the film and I have a couple of on-line friends who live in Australia about them.

I started noticing the coyotes about a dozen years ago. By the time I left the area, there was not much of a stray/wandering cat presence.

Cecilia, I am sorry, but I am kind of, well, you know, that word, which is why I rarely post on these kinds of threads, and avoid the ones on the public policy and tech ideas. All I have is my own experience and so this thread really appealed to me. However, I will not use that word again.

[Jilly]

...I hate to sound so pessimistic, but nature has been so tampered with, I'm not sure our attempts to right things (even in one small area) will have good endings.
Nature is so much more complicated and intricate that we can imagine.

I fell a kind of hopelessness about this, as well.

[Rogar]

I'm OK with it. I have no idea how long it has taken the spotted owl to evolve as a species, but it is probably something like many thousands and thousands of years. Now in just a half a decade or so they're at risk of becoming extinct due to human activity. That probably should have never happened in the first place, but I don't think I have a problem eliminating some of a more abundant species (at least as a test) to see if the endangered species can be brought back. It is probably a loosing battle to try to save every endangered species, but the diversity of life in nature is a true gift. I think the end justifies the means. If the test is successful, eliminating more barred owls might become a more complicated issue.

Speaking of coyotes, I noticed there is a Nature special coming up on a hybrid cross between a wolf and a coyote that is starting to invade the suburbs. That is sort of scary.

[new2oregon]

I don't know if I should have started another post for this but It is related to environmental Issues and wanted to inform people whats happening. My sister lives in New Zealand and made me aware of a problem people have been trying to stop for years involving 1080 poison. 1080 poison is made in the U.S.A. and is very deadly. New Zealand and Austraulia drop 1080 poison from baskets in helicopters over the land to controll possums and protect endangered birds. There is a movie called poisoning paridise out that is good. New Zealand keeps this quiet and the videos they put out makes it sound like they are doing a good thing. People loose there horses and dogs to this. Also she is trying to protect the pearse river where they get there drinking water. Animals eat this poison and don't die right away and travel and when they die other animals die from eating at the dead bodies. Poisoning the land is not the sollution as it messes up the whole echo system. I will post more info as I get it. New Zealand is known as clean and green and they just keep dropping more poison. This has been banned in the U.S.A.

[Teacher Terry]

Coyotes are a big problem on the West Coast. Yes they do indeed eat people's small pets. Outside cats are referred to as "coyote cookies." They have even taken small dogs from their owners that are on leashes. It is one reason we never had a doggie door-but instead trained them to potty pads inside. We only take them out if we are with them. It is a bigger problem in the outlying suburbs that are closer to their natural habitat then right in town. It seems that every time man tries to make something better in regard to wildlife we unfortunately make it worse:|(.

[Rogar]

Coyotes are a big problem on the West Coast. Yes they do indeed eat people's small pets. Outside cats are referred to as "coyote cookies." .... It seems that every time man tries to make something better in regard to wildlife we unfortunately make it worse:|(.

The number of birds killed by cats, especially feral cats, outnumbers the owls that will be eliminated in the test by orders of magnitude. The Audubon Society, among many other wildlife groups, recommends that cats be kept indoors. Which would keep them safe from coyotes...or maybe coyotes are part of natures plan to help the birds out.
http://web4.audubon.org/bird/at_home/SafeCats.html

[CeciliaW]

Good point, Rogar. It's all a balancing act, isn't it?

[CeciliaW]

I don't recall the name of the show but a few years back on OPB they had a program about how they figured out why there were no new or young trees in Yellowstone or some park like that.

After much watching and figuring, they realized that the newest trees were over 40 years old, which coincidentally was when they slaughtered all the wolves they could find.

When that predator was gone, the elk, deer and other large herbivores 'blossomed' and ate everything in sight, including all the itty bitty baby trees. So, then, fewer trees, larger drier meadows, more fire hazard. All from killing off one species because it ate some sheep sometimes.

They're trying to fix it now but it will take a long time to let things balance again.