View Full Version : Why I still think Rob is wrong..
I know its shocking but I still don't buy the whole rigged system excuse. So ignoring my n=1 anecdotal refutation let me point out that motivation and self-control are still the keys to success in America today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0
And how would you define success? Just curious.
Perhaps you & Rob simply have different experiences and perspectives. Why is it so important to you that he be "wrong"?
ApatheticNoMore
1-27-14, 7:53pm
Well impulse control is it's own thing, but those other two qualities sound like straight up neuroticism to me (don't ask me how I know). Superiority and inferiority, swinging like a pendulum. I think you'd have to qualify these uh qualities to death not to end up there (although it isn't really an individual feeling of superiority being described but group superiority, so that's a qualification I guess. No something I regard as positive of course).
Judging others subject to one's own values seems to be a very human characteristic. I guess it's useful for helping people's self-worth when it needs shoring up. There are a whole lot of values that matter more to me than wealth--kindness (especially to the weak and helpless among us), honesty, humor, curiosity...If you came from poverty and worked your way out of it--and did it in a way that didn't show ruthlessness--you are to be commended. We all walk different paths.
The Storyteller
1-27-14, 8:31pm
Perhaps you & Rob simply have different experiences and perspectives. Why is it so important to you that he be "wrong"?
Because we have a weird drive to be right. We humans hate to be wrong, more than just about anything else. We are willing to fight to the death or go to war to show we are not wrong. The irony is, we are all wrong on probably most things, to one degree or another. And nobody is right about everything.
But I could be wrong about that.
I highly recommend the book Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7811050-being-wrong), by Kathryn Schulz for a very interesting perspective on our drive to be right.
http://d202m5krfqbpi5.cloudfront.net/books/1386922191l/7811050.jpg
Looks interesting! My values are that it's more important to be in relationship than to be "right", and there are very few empirically correct, or "right" things in our universe. Most everything is complex, subjective, personal, and experiential, in my experience. But that's just me; as you say, TS, I could be wrong!
The Storyteller
1-27-14, 8:56pm
It has certainly helped me to lighten up, when it comes to my political beliefs. Can't get much more subjective than on something like that!
gimmethesimplelife
1-27-14, 9:00pm
Because we have a weird drive to be right. We humans hate to be wrong, more than just about anything else. We are willing to fight to the death or go to war to show we are not wrong. The irony is, we are all wrong on probably most things, to one degree or another. And nobody is right about everything.
But I could be wrong about that.
I highly recommend the book Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7811050-being-wrong), by Kathryn Schulz for a very interesting perspective on our drive to be right.
http://d202m5krfqbpi5.cloudfront.net/books/1386922191l/7811050.jpgI have an interesting take on this. I remember when I was growing up my father would go on one of his drunken sprees and he'd say this one thing over and over and over - "I am 99.999999 percent right." Thanks Dad. From you I learned that's it's OK to be wrong and I admit I am wrong more than half the time. Perhaps even more like 3/4 of the time. I learned from my father to not need to be right all the time and to be OK with that. Years ago I figured out one of my strengths is getting issues on the table to be discussed - whether I am right or wrong. And I wouldn't want to be right 99.999999 percent of the time anyway. That sounds like way more responsibility than I need to deal with and life is too short for me to be right that often. Just my two cents on this. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-27-14, 9:06pm
Perhaps you & Rob simply have different experiences and perspectives. Why is it so important to you that he be "wrong"?Redfox, you bring up an interesting point for me. Something that life has taught me is that you can put ten different people in the same situation and get ten different takes on the situation. Of course not everyone is going to see things that way I do or you do or the way Yossarian does. Such is life.....it would be a very boring world if we agreed all the time and there would be no real reason to study history if we did.....Rob
There are a whole lot of values that matter more to me than wealth
Indeed, as the author says:
These facts don’t make some groups “better” than others, and material success cannot be equated with a well-lived life. But willful blindness to facts is never a good policy.
If you look at something like the Bureau of Labor Statistics that shows what jobs exist in this country you'll see that it is literally impossible for ALL of us to have high paid jobs. Whether I am or am not one who gets the better jobs may very well be a function of motivation, self-control etc, but when the top slots are filled people go into the middle slots and if all those are filled we ring up retail purchases or cook fast food burgers. It's not so much a rigged system as that as you go down the job pyramid from CEO down to worker bee, there are just a whole lot more worker bee jobs than upper level jobs. That seems like a naturally occurring structure that individuals can't change, we can just try to be the kind of person that's far enough up the job pyramid to make a living wage.
If every working age adult suddenly became book-smart, energetic and personable and went back to school to get a degree, doctor, lawyer, engineer, business leader, all the good jobs, some of them would fill the available good jobs. Many of them, still educated and energetic, would have to take the mid level jobs because there are way more people than there are highly paid jobs. Then another bunch of them would be fetching your purchase at the auto parts store and delivering your furniture because those things need to be done and when the upper level jobs are full even our hypothetically all equally wonderful workers will work the lower level jobs because that's what exists.
The take-away that I got from the article is actually that both Rob and Yossarian are right each in their own way. Yes, an individual can still succeed in our society as was shown with the Sotomayor example, but one is much more likely to succeed if one's parents instill the 3 things discussed in the article. So many children aren't given those 3 things by their parents or any other role model adult with the result that outsize success compared to average is unlikely for most people in the lower economic classes. On the other hand, the system may in fact be rigged, but the rigging is at least partially perpetuated by the very groups at the lower end of the economic spectrum who are harmed by it. After all, even African Americans who do succeed well have undoubtedly heard the nasty comment that their success is somehow tied to affirmative action and not really a result of their own exceptional abilities.
It would be interesting if some study seperated African Americans into two groups, highly successful and not highly successful to see if the highly successful group was inculcating their kids with the concepts that the successful immigrant groups mentioned in the article do of 1) we are exceptional, 2) we're underdogs so you need to work hard and 3) impulse control, and if so, are their children more likely to be successful than the children of not highly successful African Americans.
ApatheticNoMore
1-27-14, 10:49pm
If you look at something like the Bureau of Labor Statistics that shows what jobs exist in this country you'll see that it is literally impossible for ALL of us to have high paid jobs.
I've heard it described as the fallacy of composition but I think it's stretching the definition a bit there.
It's more: people who succeed have the 3 traits, therefore if everyone had the 3 traits everyone would suceed. There's quite a bit of affirming the consequent going on as well of course (wonder how many of these superiority/inferiority people there are that don't suceed). But I'm not sure it's that all that rigorous in basic research anyway (they aren't sociologists). Anyway I've always believed if everyone had PhDs, PhDs would be cleaning bathrooms.
But really we should all be superior/inferior or what psychologists in deep insight saw as major neurotic inner conflicts! >8) (Karen Horney particularly) As opposed to, it's hard: real appraisal of self as one is. :| Grounded in ... reality, one's real self in all concrete manifestations (flattering and not so), real opportunities however great they may or may not be, that may or may not pan out etc. - it's hard ...
The comments on the article are great:
"The American dream now is (if I may be so bold as to venture a guess), to eat good organic vegetables that perhaps you or someone you know grew. To constantly learn new things, be it making chairs, coding a website, or making pasta by hand. To travel for free using the collaborative economy and encountering new cultures via platforms like BeWelcome of Couchsurfing. To make sure that ALL people have access to knowledge, not just your peers, to share more experiences with other people, to learn to do things with your own hands, to have lots of friends "In Real Life", to be more open minded, to accept and trust people, to do everything "OpenSource", to help build a better world."
Or one person asks why must the best human characteristics (ok inferiority/superiority complexes are not my definition of best human characteristics at all and probably not many peoples) - but persistence, delayed gratification for a goal etc. - only be used for narrow wealth seeking? Or maybe 3rd generation Americans just ultimately see the hollowness of the American dream - the diminishing returns of a 90k income over a 50k one (plus 2nd generation Americans maybe see the emotional pain they suffered with a superiority/inferiority complex and don't repeat it).
Something that life has taught me is that you can put ten different people in the same situation and get ten different takes on the situation. Of course not everyone is going to see things that way I do or you do or the way Yossarian does. Such is life.....
I don't generally mind if someone reaches different conclusions than I do.
However, I mind it a great deal when they use force to impose their conclusions upon me.
Defining success strictly in terms of wealth seems terribly limiting, but the author did address that notion. It surely is the easiest way to quantify the results. $ is to $ as apple is to... Generally speaking it is good to identify trends such as this. It could be useful information for someone outside the group du jour who is looking for an advantage. Other than that it does, by necessity I think, ignore some of the more meaningful aspects of life.
Along with the three traits listed, you need a striving nature, connections, and the energy/will to succeed beyond your basic needs.
With jobs disappearing, I believe it will become more evident that the system is rigged so that workers jockeying among themselves for the few jobs left will sell themselves for less and less while their overlords count the money. But of course, I could be wrong.
gimmethesimplelife
1-28-14, 12:15am
Along with the three traits listed, you need a striving nature, connections, and the energy/will to succeed beyond your basic needs.
With jobs disappearing, I believe it will become more evident that the system is rigged so that workers jockeying among themselves for the few jobs left will sell themselves for less and less while their overlords count the money. But of course, I could be wrong.Ummmmm.....I'm thinking you are right, unfortunately.....Rob
Teacher Terry
1-28-14, 1:19am
Rob, that is exactly the reason that a good therapist will not solve your problem for you but help you to solve it for yourself. You take those same 10 people with the same problem & they will solve it 10 different ways!
goldensmom
1-28-14, 7:45am
Redfox, you bring up an interesting point for me. Something that life has taught me is that you can put ten different people in the same situation and get ten different takes on the situation. Of course not everyone is going to see things that way I do or you do or the way Yossarian does. Such is life.....it would be a very boring world if we agreed all the time and there would be no real reason to study history if we did.....Rob
I agree. Additionally, just because the 10 people do not see eye to eye does not mean they hate of fear one another. Disagree but treat others as you want to be treated. There does, however, need to be common ground, common values, common goals. The 10 people need to ferret out some commonalities or life would be total, absolute total chaos.
Very interesting article to read, Yossarian. What a clever heading to trigger good responses and input!
I was raised with the phrase "people are not hungry enough". There first had to be the belief that one deserved more, then the fear of lack and if one made the effort and saved wherever possible, one could get enough.
I read that article yesterday and thought about it all day. I have always been fascinated by the role of ambition and how it intersects with those whose lives are guided by voluntary simplicity. It feels sort of schizophrenic to live in both worlds; as a middle income household we try to maintain a status quo appearance but desire very simple things to be content. From a personal standpoint, I probably would have had a very "successful" career had I not succumbed to dysfunctional family dynamics - absent, alcoholic parents who provided all material things and did not provide role models as being fulfilled in their professional careers, ie nurture.
gimmethesimplelife
1-28-14, 12:30pm
I agree. Additionally, just because the 10 people do not see eye to eye does not mean they hate of fear one another. Disagree but treat others as you want to be treated. There does, however, need to be common ground, common values, common goals. The 10 people need to ferret out some commonalities or life would be total, absolute total chaos.I believe that you're really on to something here. I think of all the dysfunction in DC and in the modern workplace and in so many superficial relationships we tend to have these days - I'm not talking of partner relationships, more acquaintances and work relationships - and how dysfunctional they can be - it seems that many people are not seeking common ground to me. Very much so. No wonder why life is so stressful these days for most people. Rob
catherine
1-28-14, 12:40pm
I read that article yesterday and thought about it all day. I have always been fascinated by the role of ambition and how it intersects with those whose lives are guided by voluntary simplicity. It feels sort of schizophrenic to live in both worlds; as a middle income household we try to maintain a status quo appearance but desire very simple things to be content. From a personal standpoint, I probably would have had a very "successful" career had I not succumbed to dysfunctional family dynamics - absent, alcoholic parents who provided all material things and did not provide role models as being fulfilled in their professional careers, ie nurture.
The author is the woman who wrote Tiger Mom, which I had brought up in another thread (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?9707-Tiger-Mother&highlight=tiger). Yes, it is very provocative. So, all it takes to get on is a feeling of superiority, insecurity and discipline. If you read her book, she says that those things are instilled by berating your child and prohibiting anything "fun". It also requires that you beat your child over the head with your own aspirations for them, and to hell with what they want. How many times have you seen Asians on the Food Network competitions saying they compete only because they need to prove themselves to their parents, who feel they are wasting their life being a chef?
As for feelings of superiority and insecurity, I guess you could say the KKK is very successful. Add in discipline, and no wonder Hitler got as far as he did.
As for discipline, I do agree that you can't achieve much without it. And I love being inspired by people who have really spend their lives determined and persistent. Because I have a very Christian/theistic view of life, what I love is seeing the Divine work through people and shine through people when they are fulfilling their God-given callings. I'm not as inspired by people who have achieved their parent's dreams while their own lives go unfulfilled.
ApatheticNoMore
1-28-14, 1:22pm
I don't have a problem with 10 people have 10 different perspectives on their lives, I mean ok if they are arguing something broader than that there are criteria to evaluate how accurate or inaccurate it may be, but really I think it's beyond folly most of the time to try to locate one's own life in broad statistical trends. Understand your society and how it has and does affect one yes, but on a a deep comprehensive level, life is not lived by some stupid mathematical average.
Besides I'm not sure what the point is that's even supposed to be being argued, so Rob is wrong (sorry Rob just the thread title), but about what? Well assuming one believes the article (I'm pretty skeptical) of life being entirely determined by class. O.K. So let's assume so. But then it (the article itself) makes much of life determined by one's early upbringing, which one does not choose EITHER! We don't choose our parents. So why it should make any great deal of difference to an individual whether their life is determined by X which they have no choice over or Y which they also have no choice over, I'm not sure! I mean understanding is great, social understanding is awesome - heck deep psychological understanding may be wonderful, but life is experienced in the end as the individual acting in the now. Really what people care about is: what can I do to improve my life NOW, what opportunities exist for me now, being I can't even rewrite my adult past much less my childhood? And if no such economic opportunities exist that is sufficient condemnation of a society IMO. And the article IS arguing the effect of upbringing on one's success far more than it is actually arguing: adopt these values and be successful. "How to win friends and influence people" it's really not.
I could probably have had many chances to earn somewhat more if I valued money more (and this is somewhat more, this isn't being richy rich), at the end of the day I JUST DON'T, that's not what motivates me beyond survival. Oddly I relate to some of those values the article says I should have, just probably don't have enough determination and stick to it ness :P. Oddly the only of those values I see as having any real value at all! I was raised to see my family as superior in many ways. I was raised with self-hate and insecurity I have struggled with all my life. But I don't see it as positive. It's been said a thousand times, if what it takes to be "successful" in a given society is mental pathology, that says more about the society than anything else :) (and what is says about it is not positive)
As much as this can all be analyzed to death its really much simpler since we're bound and determined to define success in wholly tangible (and usually monetary) terms. Those who get it wanted it more. Mommy and daddy can give you a boost. Your culture can give you an advantage. In the end you won't succeed or fail based on any of those inputs. You will only get the shot based on how dedicated you are to achieving your goals. Stay focused and the odds will be significantly in your favor. Drift off course and wait for success to fall into your lap and the odds are against you. Nothing ever guaranteed either way. Ever. Simple.
Teacher Terry
1-28-14, 8:20pm
Gregg, I have to agree that motivation is paramount! It will not always guarantee success but without it you do not get very far. Also the ability to stick with a long term plan and work consistently towards the goal. When people with these attributes hit an obstacle they find a way around it, etc. This has a lot to do with success/failure.
Simply Divine
1-28-14, 10:24pm
I know its shocking but I still don't buy the whole rigged system excuse. So ignoring my n=1 anecdotal refutation let me point out that motivation and self-control are still the keys to success in America today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html?_r=0
From the article:
It turns out that for all their diversity, the strikingly successful groups in America today share three traits that, together, propel success. The first is a superiority complex — a deep-seated belief in their exceptionality. The second appears to be the opposite — insecurity, a feeling that you or what you’ve done is not good enough. The third is impulse control.
Well, that's me in a nutshell. So why am I not a millionaire yet?
From the article:
Well, that's me in a nutshell. So why am I not a millionaire yet?
Because the article is one person's opinion, and that is all.
Teacher Terry
1-29-14, 12:49am
Also having a lot of education & being smart does not equate into $. Some college professors make a lot of $ and some do not for example. I have a PhD and work in human services-my hubby has a BA & is an engineer-he has always made double what I make. Those are 2 different things.
Agreed, Teacher Terry. There are a lot of people who "work hard" but not in remunerative professions.
Agreed, Teacher Terry. There are a lot of people who "work hard" but not in remunerative professions.
Indeed. If hard work = wealth, the folks harvesting our food, cleaning our office buildings, caring for our children & elders, and teaching our children would be among the richest. Hmmmm.
gimmethesimplelife
1-30-14, 1:47am
Indeed. If hard work = wealth, the folks harvesting our food, cleaning our office buildings, caring for our children & elders, and teaching our children would be among the richest. Hmmmm.Good point! Rob
Has anyone ever said that hard work is ALL that's required to succeed? Alright, probably, people say all kinds of stupid $*** every day. The real question is, "is anyone dumb enough to believe it?". I'm certain no one here is. Its one component, and a very important one, but not the panacea. You need strong legs to run a marathon, but you also need healthy lungs and good shoes and probably most importantly you need the desire that gets you the last 6 miles when you're outta gas. That last part is why most people don't succeed. It has very little to do with mommy and daddy or school or any other outside influence. Most people who have a shot don't succeed because they give up too easily or too soon. Most of the rest don't succeed because they don't try. That takes nothing away from someone who spends their whole life working very hard, it simply shows the fallacy that exists when someone believes that is the only thing they need to do to succeed. It isn't going to fall in your lap just because you put in your time.
It isn't going to fall in your lap just because you put in your time.
+1
I think it also requires belief in oneself. A lot of people work hard, but they don't see beyond that first hurdle. So they got a job and they work hard. Do they envision themselves being a manager? A vice president? The president of the company?
I'm not saying that success means you have to climb the corporate ladder--it's just an example addressing the syndrome whereby people get "stuck" and don't advance the way they wish to. I, for one, am a total believer in the power of thought.
If you want to get really depressed, read the book Small Victories (http://www.amazon.com/Small-Victories-Teacher-Students-School/dp/0060920874). Wow. This teacher gave her first-year assignment in a poor neighborhood HER ALL. And she was so discouraged by the hopelessness and all the barriers to success both she and her students faced she ... (don't want to spoil the end). I loved that book. I'm not an educator, but the author put me in her shoes and I totally bought it.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-14, 3:07pm
Has anyone ever said that hard work is ALL that's required to succeed? Alright, probably, people say all kinds of stupid $*** every day. The real question is, "is anyone dumb enough to believe it?" I'm certain no one here is.
a lot of people probably believe it as children (but then as a child did you think that being sucessful meant having more money than everyone else? that the measure of a person was their income or wealth? pretty alien thought then eh? and it still is in many respects, even if one comes to know that's the way the game is played in adulthood). I doubt many adults believe hard work is enough. But my adult view of success is pretty harsh. I think connections and what happens pretty early on maintain existing advantages a lot (are the ONLY possible way? that's nonsense, I don't believe that. But socially significant? yea). I didn't of course understand any of that when I was young.
Part of the problem is that you can't really quantify success. Its a subjective term that doesn't have the same meaning from one person/neighborhood/school/culture/etc. to the next. No two definitions are exactly the same and there is nothing wrong with everyone coming up with their own version. What is much easier to quantify is opportunity. And, IMO, that is where we fall down.
I agree that one's upbringing and immediate childhood environment are definitely a factor. I've been fascinated by some of the real-life TV dramas depicting older teens/young adults just coming out of the FLDS polygamy group in Colorado City, CO. They look like normal healthy young people, but omg the stuff they believe.
It's like trying to un-program someone from a cult. Just to get the girls to wear their hair down instead of up is a huge deal. Can be very difficult to go against what you've always been taught and what your parents believe and how everyone around you acts.
iris lilies
1-31-14, 12:39am
I think it's interesting how immediate family's values determines life career. My parents were very good at modeling how one works in a white collar managerial level job.That's what I do. They couldn't do entrepreneurial at all, the model was work for The Man.
In my immediate sphere of influence was my uncle who was self employed, and he produced a kid who is self employed.
Familial values matter. Those who can shake loose values that do not support a lifestyle of onwards and upward, I deeply admire that. DH has his own business and I suppose deeply imbedded in his head are the value of his parents who ran a family farm. It's not foreign to him.
ApatheticNoMore
1-31-14, 12:56am
My parents worked for the Man, professional and semi-professional. Not management though and neither am I (I've turned management down. I didn't want it badly enough or more truthfully I didn't want it at all - same thing I guess). Wider family well there were some professor and teacher types, some science - but I took after my parents and not the more interesting expanded family. Entrepreneurs - exactly none. I never knew or saw any growing up, everyone had earned their living working for others.
Teacher Terry
1-31-14, 1:19am
My parents worked jobs they hated but were awesome, very cheerful people and you would never know it until you got to know them deeply. What they wanted for their kids was for them to enjoy their jobs whether it be professional, skilled trades, etc. While they could not help a lot with $ they helped by giving us a free place to live, free food, free babysitting, etc and a 0% interest loan to pay for any type of training. It was a very awesome gift that I am forever grateful to both of them!
Society can't (and IMO shouldn't) try to create a completely level playing field. Diversity is a strength or at least it will be when we are someday able to accept it. And there is some truth to the notion of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There are a lot of truly amazing people that have come out of extremely difficult circumstances. Would any of them be capable of the same great accomplishments if they would have had an easier time? No way of knowing. To anyone WAY far to the left that likes to try to decode such statements, that does not mean we should actually inflict pain and suffering on anyone with the hope that some cream will rise to the top. What is means is that we can't control everything, but we can do a much better job of creating opportunities for people to overcome adversity in all its forms.
Society can't (and IMO shouldn't) try to create a completely level playing field.
Kurt Vonnegut had his take on it, a classic:
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
iris lilies
1-31-14, 9:05pm
Kurt Vonnegut had his take on it, a classic:
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
Tonight I will drink a toast to a future time when real diversity will be appreciated and celebrated, to a time when homogenous ideas and robo-thoughts are spurned. Which is not to say that the US of A is in a bad place, it's not. It is where it's going that is the problem.
I stopped reading at the bit about the gorgeous dancer just a sentence away from the announcer with a speech impediment. NPR of course is the poster child for that, I''ve often commented that only the PC NPR would have someone with a speech impediment as a talk show host.; how life apes futuristic fiction is deeply and profoundly amusing and a little depressing, so I stopped reading.
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