View Full Version : Pay down mortgage or save for retirement?
I'm sorry I ever mentioned any of it.
Gardenarian
2-22-14, 4:57pm
I would pay off the student loan and other high-interest debt first, then pay the mortgage, then save for retirement.
I'm coming from the point of view that my house yields the highest gains of any investment I have. We have paid off our mortgage on a our house that cost around 550,000 and is now worth around 1 million. Same with my cabin - I paid off the ~150,000 (no mortgage) and it now worth over 500,000. So even without a lot of retirement savings, we'd be in excellent shape by selling off any of the real estate.
This obviously depends on where you live and when (and if) you intend to sell.
DH and I plan to downsize within the next 5-7 years, and I don't see real estate in the Bay Area taking a nosedive in that time period.
fidgiegirl
2-22-14, 5:55pm
Given your age, if it were me, I'd aim for this:
1) Refinance the mortgage if possible. Even though rates are no longer at rock bottom, I would bet you can do better than a 5.xx% rate still. Or, think about moving. :( Do you plan to stay in your home indefinitely? Could you get anything comfortable in your neighborhood but for less borrowing? If you sold your home, would you expect to get more than what you owe? More rhetorical questions than anything, but feel free to answer them if you want . . .
2) Pay off the cc and car and possibly the medical debt (or maybe just stick to payment plan since it is 0%) and then start rolling those $$ into retirement savings.
3) Keep current on the student loan, but don't go overboard on paying it off. It would be interesting to know the outcome of if you are better off submitting to some garnishment of SS or by keeping with the payment plan. One of the recent Marketplace Money episodes had a good listener question about student loan forgiveness v. income-based repayment. I wish I could remember which week it was. Maybe if you poke around in the podcast archives the descriptions would tell you enough to know which one it was.
4) Put any extra available $$ toward retirement. It's an "put on your own mask before putting on that of others" kind of scenario in my mind. You might be ok with working until 70, but you may not be able to. :( I think the time to beef that fund up as much as you can is now.
You might also consider cross posting this in the MMM forums. I hate to recommend that but you won't be torn from us if you do it. :) There are a lot more people over there and many of them are very well versed in investing. You gotta have a tough skin, though. I've never been brave enough, myself. :)
ETA: Here's that student loan podcast (not the whole thing, you might have to hunt around to where within the hour they talk about it): https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/marketplace-money-for-friday/id201291272?i=234231719&mt=2
I would put the money in retirement funding after paying off the high interest loans. The mortgage will always be payable or you will sell the house if the funds change.
Teacher Terry
2-22-14, 6:43pm
I agree with razz. I am usually big on paying off the mortgage but in your case I do not think it makes sense. You may need to sell the house in order to retire and you don't know what the housing market will be like then. Also Fidgiegirl is right that you may not be able to work till 70(either physically or getting laid-off and can't find another job). I would hope for the best & prepare for the worst.
I pretty much agree with fidgie. I would:
1) If you are sure you want to stay in the house for at least 5 years, try to refinance. You might want to check with BECU about their rates -- I have been a happy BECU customer for nearly 25 years. A mortgage broker might also be able to give you a sense of what you can do.
If you are not underwater, and depending on how housing values are doing in your neighborhood, you might want to consider downsizing now to a condo or townhouse, or maybe even going back to renting an apartment. 2k/month is pretty high, though I realize that includes extra.
2) Pay off the credit card, then the car loan -- both as soon as possible
3) Figure out whether you have the possibility of getting the student loans forgiven. that would be HUGE. didn't the non-profit forgiveness programs start around 2007? If so, then you've been paying several years already while working in the non-profit sector. That should count, no? EVen if you have to pay a bit more now based on your higher income, the prospect of having nearly 100K in loans forgiven is MEGA. Take this more seriously and figure out what you need to do to get in the program. End of lecture :)
4) After you have done the steps above, throw whatever you can into retirement. Given your ages, you might want to be a bit more conservative in your asset allocation. Or maybe this is the time to throw it all at higher risk/higher return options, if you really are sure you are willing to work another 10-20 years. You could go with more risky for him (since he has a longer work horizon) and more conservative for you. You are going to get better returns in the market over time than you probably will putting the extra on the mortgage. And then if you want to pay off the mortgage with retirement funds when the time comes, you can always do that.
Do also take the time to figure out what your social security income likely to be for you and DH at ages 62 and above. I know you had lots of years of no or irregular income, but there should be SOMETHING there and knowing what you have coming will help you plan better in terms of cash flow.
If you know you want to keep the house for awhile, I would still keep a close eye on the market and think seriously about selling/downsizing at some point. Look into whether you might eventually qualify for Seattle's subsidized housing programs for the elderly at some point -- SHAG is the big group you are probably familiar with, there may be others. If you could wipe out the student loans, get rid of the mortgage and reduce your housing cost, you might be able to retire much sooner than you think.
Good luck figuring out your plan and putting it into motion. You can do this!
onlinemoniker
2-22-14, 8:50pm
My student loan is on a repayment program where I pay 10 years of payments based on my income and the rest is forgiven because I am a public servant. Thanks George Bush!
I am a public school teacher. I make a sub-standard salary. I will get a pension and Social Security. My retirement program is that I am working hard to pay my mortgage off early. When the mortgage is paid and student loan forgiven, I'm retiring. Hopefully, less than 10 years from now which will still make me 5+ years older than the average retiring teacher.
I have virtually no savings but with the mortgage gone and receiving pension and SS, I will live pretty well.
This is all very helpful, thank you!
- The house: not under water (current Zillow at 290K & local comps strong). We are planning to stay, as we've put a lot of work into it, and really like it here. It is über affordable for Seattle, well insulated, etc. I don't think we'd qualify for a re-fi due to my SL debt. Nor do I think we'd qualify for another mortgage for the same reason. Might I be incorrect, in your estimation? I have investigated senior housing which is affordable, and we'd qualify once I am retired & living on SS, but not with current income.
- The SL: I have not paid on it in some years. The interest rate is 3.2%. I will start paying a graduated payment in the next 60 days, $200-350/Mo for a year while I investigate the non-profit 10year/120 payments pgm. I want to pay on it, but it is frankly my last priority. I'm working on putting a number to what it would mean to lose 15% of my SS each month towards it.
I think it may be time to consult a financial planner. Keep those ideas coming!
- The SL: I have not paid on it in some years. The interest rate is 3.2%. I will start paying a graduated payment in the next 60 days, $200-350/Mo for a year while I investigate the non-profit 10year/120 payments pgm. I want to pay on it, but it is frankly my last priority. I'm working on putting a number to what it would mean to lose 15% of my SS each month towards it.
I don't understand the attitude of it being ok not to pay on your SL for years, and no care from you that it might not be paid off in your lifetime????? I paid off my student loans, my kids are working hard to pay their SLs off. What makes it ok for you not to, but have a nice house, etc. I did without a lot to get my SLs paid off before I ever took on a mortgage, etc.
onlinemoniker
2-23-14, 9:29am
Yarrow: It sounds like you don't understand the "Student Loan Scam." (Hint: It's not what borrowers perpetrate on the lenders/government when they borrow and fail to pay back according to the original terms.)
Sell the house, the cars, the kids, and anything else you can get your hands on. Seriously. Both of you get some kind of second income. You know the live frugal drill and start paying off debt. At 59 with no retirement savings, this is an emergency. Get everything but the mortgage paid off and get some emergency savings in place before you start retirement savings. IMHO.
catherine
2-23-14, 11:45am
I don't know why I didn't read this post earlier.. just catching up now, with interest, because, redfox, your situation is very similar to mine.. I am 61 (oops, I almost said 62, but won't be 62 until late March). I have exactly $6,000 in an IRA. We own our home but not outright--with a big mortgage--and I refinanced last year with 3.25 15-fixed year rate. Unfortunately I had to fold in DH's commercial loan balance, which brought our principal up to $260,000, but at the 3.25 for 15 years, it's amazing how the amortization of principal vs. interest works so much better in your favor vs. a 30 year higher interest loan.
I also would love to stay in our house if it's at all possible, but I'm freaked out by the uncertainties of my earning potential (I doubt DH's earning potential.. I'm planning on encouraging him to take his SS at age 62, unless he gets with the program and starts thinking rationally about our situation.
But enough about me--it's your post.. I personally like the advice offered:
1) try to refinance
2) pay off CC debt
3) pay off SL debt while checking into the non-profit 10-year forgiveness program (my DS is actually taking advantage of that plan)
4) put maximum allowable for 55+ into 401k/IRA
5) pay whatever you can towards the house. I know that if you get a low interest rate for the house (if you refinance) it's counterintuitive to sacrifice potentially higher interest earned in savings, but personally, I love the security that no bank has any say in the roof over my head.
I think it's especially hard when so many of the stories out there talk about people with hundreds of thousands saved for retirement. It would be interesting to know what's really going on with the majority of people near retirement. We are in better shape but not anywhere near what articles say we should have.
catherine
2-23-14, 10:45pm
Catherine, I'm sorry you're in similar straits. What else have you thought through? I've been reading about the huge number of boomers who are likewise don't have adequate retirement savings. I wonder what others are doing.
In the best possible scenario, I continue making what I've been making consistently over the next seven years. If I do, I can probably pay off all debt. Then spend another year saving like crazy. If I take SS at 70 and my earnings are in the same ballpark as in the past, I actually get a pretty good SS check, and if the house is paid off, I'm not worried.
But, that's best case scenario. And it's just one slim step away from worst case scenario which would be work stops flowing, I can't pay the bills and all the other financial doomsday stuff occurs. I have actually considered selling my house and buying a Tumbleweed house and parking it in my son's back yard in VT. That would be the doomsday scenario, and to be honest, things could be worse, so I am doing my best to stay busy and active in my career, and if s**t happens, c'est la vie. I'll be fine, one way or another.
Teacher Terry
2-24-14, 2:19am
Redfox, I hate that you have had to spend so much $ to pay for your cancer treatment. I have friends that had a paid for home, savings,etc and even though they had health insurance are now broke & both sick again. I will never use all my $ to pay for health costs-they can take small payments. I know you & others had the best intentions but it does not seem to matter. I like Mr MM for inspiration but people seem to be smug & don't realize what can happen in life-they are mostly young. Pinkytoe, most people have very little $ if you look at the stats. We used all our savings to pay our house off. WE can live frugally on our pensions or better with our consulting work until we either can't get any or are too old.
flowerseverywhere
2-24-14, 7:43am
Deleted. Op took my comments the wrong way.
I like Mr MM for inspiration but people seem to be smug & don't realize what can happen in life-they are mostly young.
So true. When you are young, all things seem possible. All the planning and saving in the world can't save one from things like illness or accidents.
I love to think about all these financial scenarios and how to climb out of them. My older brother, now 65, recently came for a visit and we were shocked to learn that he and his wife have quite a bit of debt ($125K mortgage, credit card, car) yet they have been retired for 10 years. They live off of SS and his small military pension.
Teacher Terry
2-24-14, 7:45pm
Redfox, I understand completely-we also had to rescue our step son. Pinkytoe, that is too bad about your brother but it sounds like they are making it work. Even though we don't have much $ saved I feel blessed that we are debt free, have our pensions and right now the health to be consultants. However, that can all change in an instant. WE have some friends ( a couple) that both have serious cancer at the same time. They are wonderful people but are having a tough time.
Thanks, Terry. Being a stepparent is the hardest thing I have ever done. I am proud that we sacrificed for our two kids. I am holding your friends in the Light... I cannot imagine both my DH & me having cancer at the same time. Wow.
I must confess that I was rather shocked by Yarrow's words and the assumption that she, and apparently flowerseverywhere made, that my debt was either being defaulted upon or was due to personal irresponsibility, without any evidence to support those conclusions. (I've reached out to Yarrow to talk about it.) Never in my wildest imagination would I make those assumptions. I always assume that life hands out what it does, and we all do the best we can.
flowerseverywhere
2-25-14, 12:20am
If you feel you did the best you could hold your head high and be proud. I am not your enemy by any means, just human.
I listened to an audio lecture from Effective Communication atThe Great Courses in which a quote from a Finnish prof resonated with me. Paraphrased, "If you hear and fully understand all that I have just said to you, culturally, in context and life experience, it is probably a mistake". It is so easy to misunderstand and misinterpret even with the best of intentions. That quote has since governed my responses as much as possible but I am still learning.
Teacher Terry
2-25-14, 10:00pm
REdfox, thanks for the positive thoughts for my friends. I was also surprised at some of the comments. Even if you were in default over student loans there could be an extremely good reason for it. No One ever knows what life will throw at them and all the best financial planning in the world goes up in smoke. Besides there are worse things then losing your $-losing your life or a loved one. My best friend lost her 19 yo daughter to a rare liver disease(well one day & dead a year later) and I have friends now that their only child (8yo) is battling brain cancer. All that seems pretty insignificant when compared to $.
I think you've gotten some great advice and I admire how you have handled everything that has been thrown your way.
In order of debts, I would only pay minimum on the mortgage until the credit card and car loan debt are paid in full (with the extra you've thrown towards mortgage you could probably have those knocked out in a year). Continue the minimum on the medical debt (so amazed that that is all the medical debt you have after the cancer) and pay the minimum on the student loan. After the credit card and car loan are gone, re-fi the mortgage and then pay extra on that. I would probably put 2/3 extra towards mortgage and 1/3 extra towards retirement until the mortgage is gone.
I have a question on the school loan. I didn't know about them taking 15% off SS for school loan debts. What then happens upon death? Do they take what they can out of assets to clear the debt? If that is the case I would just pay minimum through out the life of the loan. I ask because at 47(tomorrow) I'm considering going back to school to work on a masters and if I do it will have to be through loans.
Teacher Terry
2-26-14, 1:18pm
Float on, if you had good grades for your BA there is a good chance your MA would not cost you anything. You can usually be a TA and then tuition is free. I had 2 graduate degrees paid for. One I was a TA and one the feds were offering free tuition and a small stipend to live on to put more professionals in the work place in this certain field. Then I had to work for 3 years in non-profit and it was forgiven. If I had worked in a for profit would have had to pay it back. It is worth looking into.
Teacher Terry, that is some wonderful advice. Thank you. I really do need to start looking into what is available.
That is good advice. I imagine it's true for public schools, though not private ones. I wish I'd gone to law school instead of the MA I got.
ApatheticNoMore
2-26-14, 6:34pm
I dont' know, there's lots of reports of lawyers being unable to get anything but mediocre paying these jobs these days (with hundreds of thousands in debt - that's the killer there). May as well play the lottery as try to figure out a sure bet in this economy.
I think you've gotten some great advice and I admire how you have handled everything that has been thrown your way.
In order of debts, I would only pay minimum on the mortgage until the credit card and car loan debt are paid in full (with the extra you've thrown towards mortgage you could probably have those knocked out in a year). Continue the minimum on the medical debt (so amazed that that is all the medical debt you have after the cancer) and pay the minimum on the student loan. After the credit card and car loan are gone, re-fi the mortgage and then pay extra on that. I would probably put 2/3 extra towards mortgage and 1/3 extra towards retirement until the mortgage is gone.
I have a question on the school loan. I didn't know about them taking 15% off SS for school loan debts. What then happens upon death? Do they take what they can out of assets to clear the debt? If that is the case I would just pay minimum through out the life of the loan. I ask because at 47(tomorrow) I'm considering going back to school to work on a masters and if I do it will have to be through loans.
Terry, when did you get your MA? Because with the higher education sector employment situation being what it is, I think TA and RA positions are harder to get than they used to be. Even when I was in grad school back in the 90s, there weren't enough to go around. Depends a lot on the discipline and the school's funding situation -- Ph.D. candidates at Harvard and other schools with large endowments typically get 5-6 years of funding, which includes some time that has to be spent as a TA or RA. At a state university like mine, if you don't have an external fellowship (I had an NSF to start) you might get a recruitment fellowship the first year, then be able to teach for a year or two, and then it is up to you to figure out how to get more grants or part time employment. In our department you were not allowed to have TA positions for more than a year before you were put on the bottom of the priority list.
iris lilies
2-27-14, 12:19am
That is good advice. I imagine it's true for public schools, though not private ones. I wish I'd gone to law school instead of the MA I got.
I know some unemployed attorneys although they are likely unemployed in that field by choice. And I know ones that hustle to make a living. I have no envy of a law degree. That was one discipline my parents considered over supplied even way back when I was first in college so they never encouraged me to do that, unlike many parents who seems to hold The Law Degree in awe.
There are a lot of Tax Attorney law types in my husband's family. They seem to be doing pretty well but they are all based in the DC area. His brother went a different direction in law - he does real estate (still requires a lawyer to close deals in his state) and bankruptcy. He figured if people were doing well they were buying and if not they needed someone to clean up the mess. He was doing great until just the last two years. He now pays his staff a lot more than he takes home.
Teacher Terry
2-27-14, 12:56pm
Ihamo, I received my first MA from 1988-1990 and my 2nd from 1992-1993. My son went to a state university for his MA & PHD in 2003-2008 and got it every year.
rodeosweetheart
2-27-14, 2:34pm
Redfox, I somehow missed this thread which gave me the chance to read it over and think about what everyone is saying. I am your age (well, turn 58 next month, lol) so yeah, very interesting topic to me, too.
I think your situation may be more complicated (and improved) by the fact you have a younger spouse. So he can keep working for at least 20 years, and you can work for maybe 10 more years, something like that. So one thing to do is talk to people at SS about what you would get in the different years, like Catherine is saying. I think since you guys are at different places vis a vis retirement, the usual advice might not apply.
Same thing with your house. I wouldn't be so freaked about paying mortgage off early if I had a younger spouse paying it, too. WE have no mortgage because we elected to buy cheap, cheap, cheap foreclosure and never have a mortgage again, but it has meant stuff like living with no heat for 2 years, doing our own repairs, etc. But with a builder husband, that is certainly a possibility. But if you are happy in your 'hood and it seems very affordable for your area, I might just keep doing what you are doing there. Or if you want to get aggressive, how about making the studio apt a rental instead of the house, and having boarders live there? You have to think of your own comfort and your own stress level. Since you have faced a life threatening illness in the recent past, I vote you keep your comfort, happiness, security, and home at a premium. I wouldn't knock myself out to pay off the house. The only thing I might get gazelle about would be the credit card and the car. I would put eveyrthing into those 2 and lay back on the other stuff.
As for the student loan, I would pay the minimum til the cows come home or ss or whatever. I think that if that is what you have to do to get a job in this economy, and it sure seems to be, then it can come out of ss or whatever. If you can get the forgiveness program, fantastic. I'd look into that intensely, but I would not stress about paying it off early. I think it is very low priority and a cost of doing business in today's world.
(and this is new thinking for me, I admit.)
So I would prioritize credit card, then car, then retirement, all the while checking out forgiveness on student loans.
And one possible idea is if you can find a new employer who would pay off those loans as part of your package. No idea if this is feasible in your industry.
And I was like you, gave a lot of energy/time/money to my kids. And seriously, best investment ever.
Sell the house, the cars, the kids, and anything else you can get your hands on. Seriously. Both of you get some kind of second income. You know the live frugal drill and start paying off debt. At 59 with no retirement savings, this is an emergency. Get everything but the mortgage paid off and get some emergency savings in place before you start retirement savings. IMHO.
+1
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Florence http://www.simplelivingforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?p=169692#post169692)
Sell the house, the cars, the kids, and anything else you can get your hands on. Seriously. Both of you get some kind of second income. You know the live frugal drill and start paying off debt. At 59 with no retirement savings, this is an emergency. Get everything but the mortgage paid off and get some emergency savings in place before you start retirement savings. IMHO.
This, or you may end up living with your kids.
rodeosweetheart
3-1-14, 10:18am
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Florence http://www.simplelivingforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?p=169692#post169692)
Sell the house, the cars, the kids, and anything else you can get your hands on. Seriously. Both of you get some kind of second income. You know the live frugal drill and start paying off debt. At 59 with no retirement savings, this is an emergency. Get everything but the mortgage paid off and get some emergency savings in place before you start retirement savings. IMHO.
This, or you may end up living with your kids.
If you sell the house, then the big positive is that your debt goes from $383,000 to $118000. You would not end up with much cash--if you can sell it for 300 and you owe 265, then after all the fees and commissions, you might end up with around 11,000 cash, right--you sell at around 300k and then have maybe 8%, or 24k, and you pay off the 265, and you end up with 11,000.
So you could use that to pay off both credit card and car.
That leaves you with medical debt of 7, plus the student loan debt.
It's certainly one option. If you could get forgiveness for the student loans you might get something like half forgiven, since you have to make 10 years of payments? Don't know the specifics on your loan, but you could figure that out.
I guess question is how important is the house for you? Where could you live more affordably, and still get to work and sustain your health?
Which stressors are worse, the debt, or the uncertainty about where to live?
I guess that is why the advice about sell everything has to be weighed against personal circumstances.
On other hand, that is how we got out of debt--but it was a better sich because we owned house outright and used 30k to pay off debt and bought foreclosure with remainder.
Maybe get a realtor in to give you a good estimate on the house? I don;'t trust Zillow, but I guess it's a good place to start.
What happens with a 10 year loan payoff if you cant work 10 more years? I would also look at putting money into your own IRA. That would give you a tax break now, and if you need the money you can alway's take some out when your 59.5 can't you. I don't know how IRA's work if your still working, so you would need to check that out. It may be a good place to put some of your emergency fund.
I must confess that I was rather shocked by Yarrow's words and the assumption that she, and apparently flowerseverywhere made, that my debt was either being defaulted upon or was due to personal irresponsibility, without any evidence to support those conclusions. (I've reached out to Yarrow to talk about it.) Never in my wildest imagination would I make those assumptions. I always assume that life hands out what it does, and we all do the best we can.
Redfox, I do apologize for maybe being too blunt, but I've never been one to sugarcoat things. We should probably just agree to disagree as far as SL debt goes. Yes, life happens, but I was raised to always be responsible for my debt, and to be cautious about taking on any debt that I couldn't possibly pay back, including SLs. I've lived on the edge of poverty all of my life, raised 3 kids on my own after divorce from their father who was a drug addict. Never received child support after he disappeared. My son had a medical problem that required several surgeries, and I, myself, have fought a battle with breast cancer the last 10 years, and progressive MS the last 20 years, that has disabled me so much at this point that I am in a wheelchair fulltime now. So yeah, life happens...but I did without a lot over the years to pay all of my debt off, including my SLs, and I always made sure my kids were fed, clothed, and warm, but I did not take on a mortgage or own a car. I guess I expect no less from anyone else....and that's just my opinion. You can take it or leave it. Peace.
And you may be married to the most wonderful guy in the world, but it is never good for any woman to put full reliance on any man to give them a comfortable retirement. I hope for your sake that he is always there for you, but there's always that chance he may not be. He's young and may move on someday, leaving you floundering in your older years. It happens everyday to women that never thought it would....
Teacher Terry
3-7-14, 12:27am
It is your choice to not take on a car loan or mortgage but that does not mean that is the absolutely correct thing to do. Really you are being very judgmental by assuming that your path should be everyone's path.
It is your choice to not take on a car loan or mortgage but that does not mean that is the absolutely correct thing to do. Really you are being very judgmental by assuming that your path should be everyone's path.
Like I said in my above post - it's my opinion and redfox can take it or leave it. Just because I disagree with how she handles her finances doesn't mean that I am being judgemental....just sharing my opinion like anyone else here, which is what the OP asked for originally.
ToomuchStuff
3-7-14, 10:54am
It is your choice to not take on a car loan or mortgage but that does not mean that is the absolutely correct thing to do. Really you are being very judgmental by assuming that your path should be everyone's path.
So, being judgmental and name calling is allowed, only if one is a moderator? (Redfoxes posts calling others racists)
When are views not judgments?
The current fashion of calling people "judgmental" amuses me. Of course we all make judgements, and about others. I think it is empty criticism, it's just knee-jerk.
In general, broadening our thinking is a good thing, I'll leave it at that although I am often amused at how the righteous are broad minded enough only to allow their own point of view.
Teacher Terry
3-7-14, 6:00pm
The problem that I see is that Redfox gave us her information and asked for advice. Instead of offering advice Yarrow started judging her for ever buying a house, etc. I do not see that as help & she was asking for help.
The problem that I see is that Redfox gave us her information and asked for advice. Instead of offering advice Yarrow started judging her for ever buying a house, etc. I do not see that as help & she was asking for help.
Agreed, past actions are water over the damn.
But guess what--I see the same behaviors repeated in people when the consequences of the first behaviors were clearly a problem. It happens, we are all human, we sure as h*ll are far from perfect. But in order to step out of our path leading to consequences we don't like, we need to recognize the path in order to stop going down same.
rodeosweetheart
3-8-14, 6:41am
I have had problems in my life with debt, so I tend to give advice that tries to steer people away from debt. It has caused me much pain to live in the future that way, on future expectations.
I think I have a hard time not sounding preachy when I talk about this. If I have offended, Redfox, I apologize.
But I am intrigued by the question you asked in your op, because I am so close to your age and facing the same questions about retirement and housing, etc. I think we need a new paradigm, since the old paradigm is not really attainable by many at this stage of the game.
What that paradigm looks like, I am not sure. That's why I like hearing about creative ideas like Catherine's about the Tumbleweed house, or your husband's idea about the studio and renting out the house. Those are creative! I keep looking for solutions to my own problems, lol.
onlinemoniker
3-8-14, 8:54am
The Student Loan Scam:
Congress passed legislation in the mid-1990’s that skewed student lending to benefit lenders/educational institutions at the expense of students.
•student debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy
•loan companies/guarantors own collection agencies and can write their own ticket for fees/penalty rates on defaulters—giving them an incentive to allow borrowers to default—lenders will not work with struggling borrowers
•lenders can garnish wages, tax returns, social security, disability
•defaulted loans do NOT qualify for the rare student loan forgiveness programs
•upon consolidation, student loan interest rates may not be renegotiated by borrowers—EVER!
•average national interest rate on outstanding student loans—currently 12%
•student loans are exempt from statutes of limitations for collection, usury laws, Truth in Lending, and Fair Debt and Collections
•lenders are also allowed to take up to 25% as collection fees on defaulted loans
•universities often have "preferred-lender" arrangements with the universities and receive kickbacks
•borrowers wanting to consolidate their loans must use the original lender
The Student Loan Scam:
Congress passed legislation in the mid-1990’s that skewed student lending to benefit lenders/educational institutions at the expense of students.
•student debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy
•loan companies/guarantors own collection agencies and can write their own ticket for fees/penalty rates on defaulters—giving them an incentive to allow borrowers to default—lenders will not work with struggling borrowers
•lenders can garnish wages, tax returns, social security, disability
•defaulted loans do NOT qualify for the rare student loan forgiveness programs
•upon consolidation, student loan interest rates may not be renegotiated by borrowers—EVER!
•average national interest rate on outstanding student loans—currently 12%
•student loans are exempt from statutes of limitations for collection, usury laws, Truth in Lending, and Fair Debt and Collections
•lenders are also allowed to take up to 25% as collection fees on defaulted loans
•universities often have "preferred-lender" arrangements with the universities and receive kickbacks
•borrowers wanting to consolidate their loans must use the original lender
None of which happened before student loans were privatized. Yet again, another failed experiment with privatization, this time on a HUGE scale.
Teacher Terry
3-8-14, 3:41pm
What that paradigm looks like, I am not sure. That's why I like hearing about creative ideas like Catherine's about the Tumbleweed house, or your husband's idea about the studio and renting out the house. Those are creative! I keep looking for solutions to my own problems, (Rodeosweetheart)
I think housing is one of the biggest challenges facing many of us as we age/retire. So have you thought about downsizing, maybe a condo, etc. Not sure what your exact situation is. my hubby & I downsized to a much smaller house when we semi-retired. All expenses went down which was great.
The Student Loan Scam:
Congress passed legislation in the mid-1990’s that skewed student lending to benefit lenders/educational institutions at the expense of students.
•student debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy
•loan companies/guarantors own collection agencies and can write their own ticket for fees/penalty rates on defaulters—giving them an incentive to allow borrowers to default—lenders will not work with struggling borrowers
•lenders can garnish wages, tax returns, social security, disability
•defaulted loans do NOT qualify for the rare student loan forgiveness programs
•upon consolidation, student loan interest rates may not be renegotiated by borrowers—EVER!
•average national interest rate on outstanding student loans—currently 12%
•student loans are exempt from statutes of limitations for collection, usury laws, Truth in Lending, and Fair Debt and Collections
•lenders are also allowed to take up to 25% as collection fees on defaulted loans
•universities often have "preferred-lender" arrangements with the universities and receive kickbacks
•borrowers wanting to consolidate their loans must use the original lender
I don't understand where the "scam" comes into play. A person borrows money, for whatever purpose, and there is an expectation that what is borrowed will be repaid, with interest. I could see where it might be considered a scam if the borrower were led to believe that the borrowed money did not require repayment, but that's not the case, is it?
The scam comes from the insertion of the private sector into the student loan business in the first place, and also the predatory nature of these loans - hence, the numerous lawsuits against for-profit schools with recruiters paid based on how many people they can sign up to attend.
And if bankruptcy laws can discharge debt from clothes, shoes and vacations put on credit cards, then student loans should not be singled out as non-dischargable.
The scam comes from the insertion of the private sector into the student loan business in the first place, and also the predatory nature of these loans - hence, the numerous lawsuits against for-profit schools with recruiters paid based on how many people they can sign up to attend.
And if bankruptcy laws can discharge debt from clothes, shoes and vacations put on credit cards, then student loans should not be singled out as non-dischargable.
If the government didn't meddle with the guarantees no one would loan 18 year old's thousands of dollars with no collateral or credit. I do agree that it is to easy to get loans for college.
Who in their right mind would loan some kid over $100k that could just come out and default just out of school?
I don't understand where the "scam" comes into play. A person borrows money, for whatever purpose, and there is an expectation that what is borrowed will be repaid, with interest. I could see where it might be considered a scam if the borrower were led to believe that the borrowed money did not require repayment, but that's not the case, is it?
In the liberal mindset these people are just victims. Its just bad luck that they can't pay back their loans. Or they just were to stupid to understand at the time what they were doing.
It has to be someone else's fault.
onlinemoniker
3-8-14, 10:28pm
Lainey: I agree. Student loans in their current form are totally predatory lending.
That’s why I am just so grateful that President Bush signed the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Act of 2007. With this program, a public school teacher like me can pay an income-based payment on her student loan for 10 years and if she is still in public service at the end of ten years of payments, the balance of the loan is forgiven!
Without this program I was looking at a totally unfair payment of nearly 60% of my net salary going to repay my student loans each month. As that would have been an impossible payment if I also wanted shelter and to eat regularly, I knew I was going to be taking this debt to my grave. But now, my payment is a very reasonable and fair 9% of my gross salary or just a little less than 20% of what I would have paid on the standard 10-year repayment plan.
I can eat, buy a house, pay my bills and plan for my future retirement! And the best part is, I can spend my entire career doing what I dreamed of doing; giving back to my community as a public servant.
I encourage every public servant I meet who has crippling school debt and is concerned they may have to leave public service for a more lucrative career in the private sector to look at this program. I am so happy that President Bush and the 110th Congress realized the critical importance of public servants to the welfare of the nation and made this act a reality for struggling government and non-profit workers.
Redfox: I don’t know if you’re a public servant but if you are, please look at this program! It may be your answer. If not, keep your fingers crossed. Congress is working on another loan forgiveness program for private sector workers.
The scam comes from the insertion of the private sector into the student loan business in the first place.....
As I recall, the private sector was always the lending agent in the process, albeit with government guarantees.
...and also the predatory nature of these loans - hence, the numerous lawsuits against for-profit schools with recruiters paid based on how many people they can sign up to attend.
Are you saying that recruiters were responsible for the loans that students received? Is a car salesman responsible for someone buying too much car, or a credit card company responsible for the $60K of credit card debt many run up? When does an individual become responsible for their actions?
Who in their right mind would loan some kid over $100k that could just come out and default just out of school?
That's just it. The default rate on student loans is very high, something like 20% at two years into re-payment and higher at each additional year in the re-payment schedule. Who in their right mind would assume that risk without adequate protection?
With this program, a public school teacher like me can pay an income-based payment on her student loan for 10 years and if she is still in public service at the end of ten years of payments, the balance of the loan is forgiven!
That sounds like quite a deal. I went to school without loans, although as a Vietnam era veteran I did receive approximately $350 per month in Veterans benefits, as long as I kept my grades up and attended class regularly. I also worked full time while attending evening college. Those two factors ensured that I graduated without a penny of debt. If I had been smart, I'd have taken out enough school loans to purchase a house and then let the government forgive the loan after 10 years.
ApatheticNoMore
3-9-14, 1:06am
Maybe the scam is they create the money out of thin air (and they really do loan it into existence) and then charge interest on it. I think state schools are a way better way to go about it (just hard if you can't get classes). But then I have little in the way of formal degrees (and the 2 year degree from city college - relatives paid) and I have even less debt (as in not a penny of debt to my name - well ok I haven't fully paid off this years auto insurance - so may pay a small amount of interest there).
Student loans are really, really costly. But I don't necessarily see the difficulty in getting out of paying them (not bankruptable, etc.) as a bad thing. I think Alan's right--the rate of default is probably very high. If it were easier to default, no doubt they'd have to raise interest rates or something like that to cover their losses.
However, I also think that people (kids and their parents) go into borrowing blindly, and I think it's been so ingrained into our consciousness that student loan is "good debt." Well, it's not good debt if you are a slave to it. How ironic is the situation that onlinemoniker mentioned--to go to school for your dream job and then you have to defer your dream job because of the high cost of the education that got you there. Also, people also have the very erroneous belief that an expensive school has inherent good return on investment down the road. In fact, Malcolm Gladwell's new book says the opposite--that it's better to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. Those small ponds have smaller price tags typically.
These are all things I learned with my experience with my kids. Two of my sons went to community college and then to the State university. No debt--totally cash-flowed. One is now a lawyer and the other got his dream job up in Vermont. My daughter wanted to go to an expensive private, liberal arts college. Because my grandfather funded my education carte blanche, I wanted to do the same for her. I cash-flowed two years, and took out student loans for the other two years.
If I had it to do over again, or even if someone had explained to me how repayment is different for student loans than it is for other types of loans (three years of interest only, for instance) I would have discouraged my daughter from going to the expensive school, I'm sorry to say. The other frightening thing was how easy it was to get those loans! I got one student loan approved in a lunch hour--from the initial call to the acceptance. I was shocked at how fast they were willing to give me money.
My son, who now works at the school that he graduated from, tells me there are bills in the New Jersey legislature that would mandate full disclosure of the downside of student loans by the lender/school at the time of application of the school loan, very similar the the new credit card laws that tell you on your bill how much interest you pay if you only pay the minimum each month.
These student loans are one more thing now coming between me and a financially healthy retirement... arghh...
Teacher Terry
3-9-14, 4:55pm
I went to school as an adult & saved the $ first so no student loans. However, unlike Alan I don't begrudge the people that need to take them.
I went to school as an adult & saved the $ first so no student loans. However, unlike Alan I don't begrudge the people that need to take them.
Begrudge? Why would you say that?
I'll admit to being skeptical of the concept of "student loan scams", but I'm a free market kinda guy. If someone wants to borrow huge amounts of money for their education, more power to them. And, I'll also admit to being intrigued by the nature of some of the programs designed to forgive that debt. It seems that an enterprising person could benefit in many ways, outside of simply receiving a discounted education.
I re-mortgaged my house 5 years ago in order to pay off my daughter's student loans, as it became apparent that she would not be able to afford the life we wished for her as a result of the debt. We'll take it off of her inheritance. ;)
I believe that the current problem with student loans involves those who default on the loans, making it harder for the next group requiring assistance, as lenders try to protect themselves. Adjusting for risk is a natural component of lending.
Teacher Terry
3-9-14, 8:07pm
I made that comment Alan because you said you should have borrowed enough student loan $ to buy a house & then get it forgiven in 10 years.
I made that comment Alan because you said you should have borrowed enough student loan $ to buy a house & then get it forgiven in 10 years.Are you aware of any safeguards to prevent it from happening? Also, if a person borrows $100K through the student loan program, what are the odds that the entire $100K went to education expenses? Just curious.
Teacher Terry
3-9-14, 8:16pm
When I was in college I knew alot of adults that borrowed way more then they needed & lived a great life. Bought stuff that them & their kids did not need-I guess they were sick of being poor. I remember thinking at the time this is a really bad idea. We had 3 kids and lived frugally then to pay for my college & later to help the kids.
onlinemoniker
3-10-14, 8:11pm
The money is loaned, and the borrower spends it as they choose. It actually never occurred to me to spend it on anything other than school & some living expenses, as I worked part time during grad school. I suppose I could have bought my car with this money, but that seemed wrong.
That was never the case for me, Redfox. When I was in school and getting my loans nothing was dispersed to me for living expenses until all my tuition, fees and room and board were paid in full. All I got was money for books. I never took all the money that was offered to me with my FAN. I had a job the entire time and didn't need all that money and I kind of knew it was going to be a big burden paying it back. When I was in grad school and no longer living in the dorm, the money for living expenses went to my rent. I didn't want to live in my car so it never occurred to me to buy a car with it. Anyway, I didn't get and entire academic career's worth of aid in on check. They stretched it out over the years and semesters.
In the liberal mindset these people are just victims. Its just bad luck that they can't pay back their loans. Or they just were to stupid to understand at the time what they were doing.
It has to be someone else's fault.
Please go back and re-read what onlinemoniker posted originally:
The Student Loan Scam:
"Congress passed legislation in the mid-1990’s that skewed student lending to benefit lenders/educational institutions at the expense of students. •student debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy
•loan companies/guarantors own collection agencies and can write their own ticket for fees/penalty rates on defaulters—giving them an incentive to allow borrowers to default—lenders will not work with struggling borrowers
•lenders can garnish wages, tax returns, social security, disability
•defaulted loans do NOT qualify for the rare student loan forgiveness programs
•upon consolidation, student loan interest rates may not be renegotiated by borrowers—EVER!
•average national interest rate on outstanding student loans—currently 12%
•student loans are exempt from statutes of limitations for collection, usury laws, Truth in Lending, and Fair Debt and Collections •lenders are also allowed to take up to 25% as collection fees on defaulted loans
•universities often have "preferred-lender" arrangements with the universities and receive kickbacks
•borrowers wanting to consolidate their loans must use the original lender"
It's not students being unable to repay their loans, it's getting into a contract that is far more punitive than any other similar contractual agreement.
One more: Banks' Student Loan Gravy Train:
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/03/30/how-the-banks-student-loan-gravy-train-finally-got-halted/
Please go back and re-read what onlinemoniker posted originally:
The Student Loan Scam:
"Congress passed legislation in the mid-1990’s that skewed student lending to benefit lenders/educational institutions at the expense of students. •student debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy
•loan companies/guarantors own collection agencies and can write their own ticket for fees/penalty rates on defaulters—giving them an incentive to allow borrowers to default—lenders will not work with struggling borrowers
•lenders can garnish wages, tax returns, social security, disability
•defaulted loans do NOT qualify for the rare student loan forgiveness programs
•upon consolidation, student loan interest rates may not be renegotiated by borrowers—EVER!
•average national interest rate on outstanding student loans—currently 12%
•student loans are exempt from statutes of limitations for collection, usury laws, Truth in Lending, and Fair Debt and Collections •lenders are also allowed to take up to 25% as collection fees on defaulted loans
•universities often have "preferred-lender" arrangements with the universities and receive kickbacks
•borrowers wanting to consolidate their loans must use the original lender"
It's not students being unable to repay their loans, it's getting into a contract that is far more punitive than any other similar contractual agreement.
Were they forced to take the loan? Did they not think that they would be required to pay the loan back? Loans are made for the lender to make a profit, or at least keep up with inflation. Most of the rules you seem to be complaining about only effect those who are trying to default on the loans.
I agree that the money was to easy to come by. Without the government agreeing to the above rules many of the loans would not have been made. What do you think the interest rates would be for unsecured loans?
I don't understand why the banks are so worried about making a profit. When they make bad loans en mass they just start screaming for a bailout and then the government and federal reserve happily comply with trillions of dollars.
I don't understand why the banks are so worried about making a profit. When they make bad loans en mass they just start screaming for a bailout and then the government and federal reserve happily comply with trillions of dollars.
I don't agree with that either.
I do get tired of the idea that anything is OK since someone else does it.
ApatheticNoMore
3-11-14, 11:48am
I don't agree with that either.
I do get tired of the idea that anything is OK since someone else does it.
I don't think it's about ok, I think it's about if the only one "following the rules", either because they have so much of a conscience - and good, but it seems far from the best use of it, or far more likely because the system as such is setup so the rules only apply to them, then that leads to certain structural consequences, a society that is a certain way. I mean the banks can't actually get bailed out and then "move on nothing to see here". Joe Schmoe following all the rules because "anything is not OK just because someone else does it" and because rules are actually enforced on him, banks getting all the money in the world in bailouts forever and ever, will lead to Joe Schmoe bankrupt and on the streets and the banks charging him interest for the sidewalk he sleeps on. That's really not that much of an exaggeration. And in that case who do you think most people would rather be? Joe Schmoe whose rewards are not in this lifetime, or a bankster? You don't even have a cultural structure that values HOW people got their money over merely having it (not this culture!) and the economy certainly doesn't (even if it was literal blood money noone will ask - money itself is a laundering operation, it launders social conscience so it all comes out smelling green, uh I mean clean, in the end).
DD did not take on college loans until she was in grad school. Even with merit-based scholarships, she still amassed quite a bit of loan debt to get through the two years. This was seven years ago and my recollection was that the media pumped out the message non-stop that college loans were "good" loans and that one couldn't make it in the world without an advanced degree. Now, seven years later, she like so many others moans about her indentured servitude to obtain the education needed to achieve her career goals. Seems to me like a society that really valued educated citizens would make low cost education a top priority. There was a time when education at a state university was ridiculously cheap. I don't know about other state universities but ours is rich beyond belief due to oil, gas and real estate interests yet tuition goes up every year...along with student loan debt.
The government stepped in to make it easy to get school loans. Then due to easy money the colleges did what they could to attract new students, then upped their prices. Not much different than housing.
I paid for both my kids college, they also went about 7 years ago. It was a lot of money, but I don't think two years qualifies for indentured servitude. Still no one forced the students to take out a loan, and I would think that the terms were in the loan documents.
If people quit going to state college's and said the cost were to high, what do you think would happen? I would think they would cut cost and reduce the price of tuition. But student's like the fancy building and continue to pay for them.
. .. Seems to me like a society that really valued educated citizens would make low cost education a top priority. .
+1 See Germany.
DD did not take on college loans until she was in grad school. Even with merit-based scholarships, she still amassed quite a bit of loan debt to get through the two years. This was seven years ago and my recollection was that the media pumped out the message non-stop that college loans were "good" loans and that one couldn't make it in the world without an advanced degree. Now, seven years later, she like so many others moans about her indentured servitude to obtain the education needed to achieve her career goals. Seems to me like a society that really valued educated citizens would make low cost education a top priority. There was a time when education at a state university was ridiculously cheap. I don't know about other state universities but ours is rich beyond belief due to oil, gas and real estate interests yet tuition goes up every year...along with student loan debt.
Back then as now, I resist "media messages" about consumption. If others do not that, it's on them. I wish that state universities would not build the giant rec complexes and etc. Ridiculous. I would value a University education with well known and respected profs without the silly bells and whistles. It's time that the public stands up and says "no f**king more."
Wash Univ OTOH can charge whatever they like as a private Univ with cache'. My frenemy The Garden Diva has a MSW degree from there and is very well known as a sex therapist. She worked with Masters and Johnson and is a consultant on the teevee show. I know 2+ people who have followed her lead but they are not employable (one is just nuts) although they are in the trendy field of sex trafficking, traffickers, and trafficked.
My DH & I are discussing which will give us a better return. I'd love your input. We really need to see a financial planner, but I want to hear what hive mind here thinks!
I am almost 59 with no retirement fund (I cashed out what I had to pay for cancer treatment last year & have put a few hundred back in since returning to work full time in October). He is almost 45 with a few thousand in retirement.
We have 25 years left on our mortgage, and it is at 265K, 5.3% interest. We currently pay 2K/mo on it, and could potentially go up to 3K with some difficulty, but doable. That would get us to payoff in around 11 years. I can imagine working till I am 70.
It it is possible that I may inherit around 100K in the next 15 years, but I am not counting on it, given the markets & the medical needs of my parents. That would go into my existing TIAA-CREF retirement fund. I also have huge student loan debt, 100K, that I am slowly paying off, but I doubt I ever will totally. There's a 10 year payoff program for those of us in the nonprofit sector, which I am investigating. Essentially, one pays 120 sequential payments, then the balance is written off. Unfortunately, given our gross income, the payments required may preclude our ability to pay down the mortgage or save anything. The Gov't can take up to 15% out of my SS to pay for unpaid student loans, which might be cheaper for me in the long run.
Our only other debt is about 6K on a CC at 9%, a 5K car loan at 3%, both being paid down aggressively, and 7K in medical debt at 0% as well as a decent payment plan. Our current gross income is 107K.
What are the questions we need to be asking, and the pay offs we need to be investigating, in order of importance?
Thanks!
RFI haven't read the other posts yet so sorry if I'm repeating. But I would try to get rid of the house. Clearing that huge long term debt would give you much greater flexibility now and in the future - and certainly more available moolah to put towards debt and savings each month. I'd look at renting a small apt at half the cost of your current mortgage - and it would probably be much more than half the cost of the house once you figured out your "real costs" associated with owning the house - taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs, extra utilities, etc.. Then I'd work on paying off everything else and starting to save a nest egg for both emergency funds and retirement funds. You have what to me is a very high gross income and once the albatross of a big house debt and other debts are out of the way, you should be able to save like the dickens.
However, if you want to hang onto the house, then I'd first add up ALL the costs associated with owning the place to get the true annual costs involved. Then decide if keeping the house is of enough value to you that you'd want to keep it even though it might mean you and the hubs would have to work many years longer, and sacrifice many more things and perhaps go without any savings in your old age, in order to keep the house now. If you still want to keep the house then I would try to maximize my and DH's income by getting second jobs, and really reduce all my expenses to the bare bones and pay off all non-house debt first then start saving. I probably wouldn't pay extra towards wither the house or the student loan until my other debts were paid off, then I'd make sure I'd have an emergency fund and a bit going to a retirement fund. Then, if I had extra money left over, I'd start to pay extra towards the house and student loans. I'd only pay extra on the student loan debt and mortgage if they were constantly being adjusted upwards. If that was the case I'd probably pay them first - unless, as you said, the student loans may be discharged at some future point or I planned to sell the house at some future point. I'd also look into getting a roommate or 2. Both my Mom, and then myself, did that when we each got divorced in order to have extra money to cover our housing costs. I got 2 roommates and the income I got from them allowed me to pasy extra towards my mortage each month until I paid it off. Then I used that roommate money to put towards savings until I had built up a sizable fund. Then I booted them out as I didn't need their income anymore :-)! I'd do that if you want to keep the digs and also pay extra towards your debt or savings..
I resist "media messages" about consumption. If others do not that, it's on them.
Me too. But that generation (milennials?) are all about media and doing what their peers do. She had attended a specialty magnet high school and all of her friends were lock step about getting advanced degrees. And Wash U was VERY expensive after attending state u for undergrad. But it was important to her to attend a highly rated school in her program.
Redfox-
What could you sell your house for?
Rents in Seattle are high and going up. There is no rent control. I can't imagine having roommates; I could hardly imagine it when I was 18. The very last thing I'd do is give up my house, personally, unless there was a cheaper, nicer one waiting in the wings.
We could currently sell for about $30,000 more than we owe. Selling our home is not on the list.
I don't mean this to sound snarky. But. If selling your "home*" is not an option, you aren't serious about getting out of debt. Just sayin'
So perhaps you are entirely right that selling the dwelling in which you reside will not net savings. But I would look to what super frugal girl Spartana says and she is suggesting that a realistic review of your housing costs will show that you can in fact rent cheaper. She has always lived in an expensive part of the country, as do you.
I would also suggest that when you retire on SS income, living in Seattle will not be an option. Too expensive.
* home is a realtortm consumer driven emo word to evoke feelings that drive humans into non-rational decisions. I live in in a house. You live in a house. It's a damn dwelling made of sticks and brick. If you wish to ascribe warm fuzzy descriptions to it, that's fine, but never forget what that costs you in real money.
It's so easy to make assumptions about others' choices. Your values about your "house" are yours, not mine. Your judgements about my intentions getting out of debt reflect the way you choose to live, and that's it.
There have been some interesting suggests made here, and then there has some disrespectful nastiness. I'm done sharing my financial details with this group.
* home is a realtortm consumer driven emo word to evoke feelings that drive humans into non-rational decisions. I live in in a house. You live in a house. It's a damn dwelling made of sticks and brick. If you wish to ascribe warm fuzzy descriptions to it, that's fine, but never forget what that costs you in real money.
IL, I just had that conversation with DIL. A house is just a house, as Burt Bacharach said, or something along the lines of a house is a house and a home is the people inside (grossly paraphrased)
Emotion is chaining me (or I should say DH) to our house. I know unequivocally that I should sell both my house and BIL's house in which we have 50% interest. I would sell both, rent for a couple of years and save up money for a smaller house in a less expensive area. I mean, it just makes sense.
I do prize the memories I have of raising my children there, and those memories are handcuffing DH's emotions to the house (my handcuffs are more the chinese handcuff type--I'm still attached, but feel I can escape my cuffs much more easily), and he refuses to entertain even a discussion of moving. I'm in Burlington VT right now, and would love to take him on a home tour just to get him thinking that JUST MAYBE there are other places he could be happy living in.
redfox, I'm sorry you felt attacked by nastiness.. we all do have strong opinions on these boards, that's for sure. I personally totally understand your predicament. The right answer is yours alone and only you will be able to discern the right direction when the time comes.
rodeosweetheart
3-15-14, 12:14pm
I'm in Burlington VT right now, and would love to take him on a home tour just to get him thinking that JUST MAYBE there are other places he could be happy living in.
Catherine, check this one out:
http://www.realestateinvt.com/properties/Burlington/Woodbury-Road/18411365
I like the fireplace. The taxes are 4200 a year, though. Don't know how that compares with your current place. On the other hand, it is glorious Vermont (got my masters in VT).
iris lily
3-15-14, 12:42pm
Catherine, check this one out:
http://www.realestateinvt.com/properties/Burlington/Woodbury-Road/18411365
I like the fireplace. The taxes are 4200 a year, though. Don't know how that compares with your current place. On the other hand, it is glorious Vermont (got my masters in VT).
Don't that start that New England Real Estate talk! Stop it! haha.
My favorite real estate site these days is http://www.historicprop.com/historicprop/default.aspx that shows old and very old houses for sale in New Hampshire. OMG the old houses are so fabulous.
This one for instance, only $223,000 and perfect:
http://www.historicprop.com/historicprop/detail.aspx?mls_no=4324829 I LOVE the old cape style farm houses. This one is from the 1820's.
Teacher Terry
3-15-14, 2:05pm
Redfox, I completely understand that you would not want to sell your home-especially since you won't be able to buy another. It is very important to me to own what I live in so I can decorate the way I want, etc. In fact it is one of my biggest values. I have also owned a condo at one point because I could not afford a house but I still owned it and was free to do things to it. Besides if rents keep going up as one poster said then it wouldn't be much of a gain. Also if you have pets that is definitely an issue with renting since many landlords do not want them. Many people love to garden and can't do that in an apartment either. I really wish you the best of luck in getting things taken care of >8).
It's so easy to make assumptions about others' choices. Your values about your "house" are yours, not mine. Your judgements about my intentions getting out of debt reflect the way you choose to live, and that's it.
There have been some interesting suggests made here, and then there has some disrespectful nastiness. I'm done sharing my financial details with this group.
I have read through this whole thread and I have not see any disrespectful nastiness - just people sharing their honest opinions, and some not sugarcoating things for you.... I mean, didn't you ask for advice on your financial situation???? And then you're angry when others don't see things exactly as you do.... You put everything out there for the world to see, then you complain. You judge and call others names on other threads here, and I see that you've deleted most of your posts here on this thread so as to make those that responded to them look like "ignorant dolts".... As a moderator I would think you would do better....
You've received some incredibly helpful advice here, and at your age being so close to retirement with your heath problems it would be beyond wise to pay close attention and get yourself out of debt. I wish you well, redfox.
And I sent you a PM, replying back to your accusatory PM that you sent me, which was totally unnecessary by the way. But anyway, you apparently need to clear space in your PM inbox to receive it - that was the message I received when I tried to send my PM to you. Just letting you know....
Don't that start that New England Real Estate talk! Stop it! haha.
My favorite real estate site these days is http://www.historicprop.com/historicprop/default.aspx that shows old and very old houses for sale in New Hampshire. OMG the old houses are so fabulous.
This one for instance, only $223,000 and perfect:
http://www.historicprop.com/historicprop/detail.aspx?mls_no=4324829 I LOVE the old cape style farm houses. This one is from the 1820's.
Thanks for the listings, rodeosweetheart and iris lily! Yes, those Cape Cods are typically affordable and functional. I grew up in one. I love the one in NH--it's beautiful! And if it were in the location of the one in Burlington, it would be perfect! Ideally, I'd like a place to be walking distance to Burlington downtown--it's such a walkable town. My kids don't even have cars and they get around just fine. There are zipcars here if you need them.
catherine
3-16-14, 10:14am
Well, since redfox abandoned this thread, I don't mind hijacking it...
Another town I would like living in is Brandon, VT. It's not as big as Burlington (which, of course, is not "big"), but it is pretty walkable, and the people are great.
Look at this awesome house for $186,000!!! (BTW, my home's value is about 375,000 in Central NJ)
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2430-Town-Farm-Rd_Brandon_VT_05733_M40991-70107?row=6&source=web
ETA this one in Burlington. I'd give up the ability to garden etc. because it's condo living, but it's very, very walkable and right next to the great Japanese restaurant I ate at last night and 4 blocks to my son's house.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4-Strong-St-Burlington-VT-05401/2112616455_zpid/
I have read through this whole thread and I have not see any disrespectful nastiness - just people sharing their honest opinions, and some not sugarcoating things for you.... I mean, didn't you ask for advice on your financial situation???? And then you're angry when others don't see things exactly as you do.... You put everything out there for the world to see, then you complain. You judge and call others names on other threads here, and I see that you've deleted most of your posts here on this thread so as to make those that responded to them look like "ignorant dolts".... As a moderator I would think you would do better....
You've received some incredibly helpful advice here, and at your age being so close to retirement with your heath problems it would be beyond wise to pay close attention and get yourself out of debt. I wish you well, redfox.
She probably didn't like hearing the truth. That at her age and having a negative net worth, with her salary, that she basically needs to hopefully die at her desk. She is not going to be able to retire unless she can pay off the loans and start saving. Which means getting rid of the house.
rodeosweetheart
3-16-14, 12:48pm
Well, since redfox abandoned this thread, I don't mind hijacking it...
Another town I would like living in is Brandon, VT. It's not as big as Burlington (which, of course, is not "big"), but it is pretty walkable, and the people are great.
Look at this awesome house for $186,000!!! (BTW, my home's value is about 375,000 in Central NJ)
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2430-Town-Farm-Rd_Brandon_VT_05733_M40991-70107?row=6&source=web
ETA this one in Burlington. I'd give up the ability to garden etc. because it's condo living, but it's very, very walkable and right next to the great Japanese restaurant I ate at last night and 4 blocks to my son's house.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4-Strong-St-Burlington-VT-05401/2112616455_zpid/
If it were I, I would go for the Brandon one in a heartbeat. It is GORGEOUS!!!! Plus, you have a much larger upside for it to appreciate in value, which I think it might. You also might be able to rent out an apartment in that barn--it almost looks finished. You would not have condo fees, and the 4 person condo association would freak me out a bit, if we needed repairs on anything, or assessments.
I was surprised at how high the taxes are in Burlington. ARe they better in Brandon? That's something to consider.
If it were I, I would go for the Brandon one in a heartbeat. It is GORGEOUS!!!! Plus, you have a much larger upside for it to appreciate in value, which I think it might. You also might be able to rent out an apartment in that barn--it almost looks finished. You would not have condo fees, and the 4 person condo association would freak me out a bit, if we needed repairs on anything, or assessments.
I was surprised at how high the taxes are in Burlington. ARe they better in Brandon? That's something to consider.
New Hampshire is a No income tax state but Real estate taxes are pretty high. We've been talking about moving to NH and one of our friends may be moving there. But if as a retiree I have low income, then higher Real estate taxes/0 state income taxes really is not a goo deal for me. I've always been attracted to New England and New Englanders and I like the liberatarian movement in New Hampshire.
rodeosweetheart
3-16-14, 1:23pm
" But if as a retiree I have low income, then higher Real estate taxes/0 state income taxes really is not a godo deal for me."(Iris Lily)
This is what I have been pondering the last few days. How do folks stay in their home on a fixed income with the kind of property taxes you see in Burlington and in Chicagoland area, where we used to live?
Although some places give you exemptions from parts of the taxes if you are over 65--as in NY state, where you did not pay the school tax if you were over 65, which helped a lot.
But aren't you better off in a state with higher income tax and lower property taxes upon retirement, or am I missing something?
rodeosweetheart
3-16-14, 1:38pm
Couple more thoughts--this guy had a book on Kindle that I read this month and it swayed me against condos:
http://condo-helper.com/101-reasons-not-to-buy-a-condo/
You can read some free here or get the book free on Kindle.
If one is downsizing for retirement, then one would be better off with no mortgage, right? At least that is how I see it; pay off bigger house and pay off mortgage and pay cash with what is left over, not to exceed that, so that your basic housing needs are met through retirement. So that would be my gameplan, if thinking of downsizing and leaving one more expensive part of country for a less expensive part.
We've done that, but I would honestly move close to my kids if I had a choice, and this is too far. So I can understand why Vermont better than say, Arkansas or Tennessee or some other nice tax state.
She probably didn't like hearing the truth. That at her age and having a negative net worth, with her salary, that she basically needs to hopefully die at her desk. She is not going to be able to retire unless she can pay off the loans and start saving. Which means getting rid of the house.
I appreciated the logical suggestions regarding managing the financial challenges. I did not appreciate the assumptions about my character or values. There are many ways to solve the challenges my DH & I face, and many truths. I'm not interested in what anyone has to say about my financial situation, so yes, I am happy that this thread has taken a new turn. It's been an interesting few years in this forum, but my experience here has led me to end my participation.
" But aren't you better off in a state with higher income tax and lower property taxes upon retirement, or am I missing something?
Sure, especially if those are the only two measures. Of course it gets more complicated with sales taxes and other taxes. My city has, for instance, a 1% "earnings" tax that you pay against wages earned in the city. But with non-wage income, I won't have to pay that. In the end I imagine that we will stay in St. Louis where property taxes aren't too bad. Those beautiful New Hampshire farm houses will just have to go to someone else ):
. .. It's been an interesting few years in this forum, but my experience here has led me to end my participation.
I'm sorry to read this, redfox. Hope that it just a hiatus vs. a permanent withdrawal. Your participation was highly valued by many of us.
I'm sorry to read this, redfox. Hope that it just a hiatus vs. a permanent withdrawal. Your participation was highly valued by many of us.
Ditto!
I'm sorry to see you go Redfox...but I'm also sorry that you chose to react this way to the comments made about your student loans. You have always been bold and opinionated, and I guess I thought you could hold your own when someone was bold and opinionated with you. We will never play a full game in life if we keep taking our ball and going home when the game doesn't go our way. I've followed this thread, and I honestly don't feel that you were attacked. I think you disagreed with the way things were worded, but you let your defensiveness cloud the main issue. We ask for ideas and opinions on this board and we're free to accept or reject the ideas and opinions that others post. If I don't like someone's answer, I can choose to at least consider it, or I can just reject it out of hand. Good luck to you, I hope that you consider bringing your ball back into the game.
fidgiegirl
3-16-14, 9:37pm
Oh redfox . . . so sorry to hear this. Truly.
ToomuchStuff
3-17-14, 2:20am
She probably didn't like hearing the truth. That at her age and having a negative net worth, with her salary, that she basically needs to hopefully die at her desk. She is not going to be able to retire unless she can pay off the loans and start saving. Which means getting rid of the house.
All her editing certainly ruins any meaningful discussion, or use as examples. I remember a post about the age differences of her and her husband (15 years from memory), and know that skews the whole equation from the start. Heck, the TWO year age difference of my parents, played havoc with some retirement choices my dad had to make, years ago. (and I think some of those have changed, since retirement health care is being sent over to pools)
Very few people really have the money for a life threatening event and that alone, can screw everything up.
On the moved on stuff, language has ALWAYS been important, and I see enough stuff thrown around. My parents always wanted to "downsize" in the later years, and (now many) years ago, my mom was looking at a home, not far from me, that had stairs, and small rooms, radiators, servants quarters, etc. (old doctor's home). So FAR from what their stated goals were (brick, one level ranch, not split, etc). They found one for sale and put in an offer, which was accepted. Only thing is there "downsize" was to a larger home. (still going against their goals)
ApatheticNoMore
3-17-14, 11:00am
Being serious about something doesn't mean it has to be one's #1 priority. One can be serious about paying off debt for example, and still make it say one's number 3 or 5 priority or whatever, it doesn't by itself indicate "unseriousness", merely prioritization. That debt is more likely to get paid off if it is one's number one priority in life - well sure - but it's not for me to tell people what their priorities should be (I want to pay off debt but #1 and #2 and #3 are more important to me, ok good to know). Sure it's a real phenomena that sometimes people pretend to be serious about things they aren't serious about, occasionally that's pretty obvious and mine to judge (though I can't say I feel that way here), but most of them time that's between them and themselves and the only cure for that is self-awareness.
As for owning a house. It's clearly a want and not a need. I'm a renter and saying it's a need is just a bit "let them eat cake" :) Nah food is a need, not cake (and I've never been in the "cake" that is homebuying income bracket in this state). And this renter never worries about debt and is doing fine on the savings department (but life is uncertain). So this renter is never kept awake at night by finances! :) And you know what, it's a good life not to be kept awake and night with finances!!
However based on whatever assumptions one makes it can make sense based on those assumptions to own a house (Spartana's assumptions are based on very conventional financial reasoning which is ok but imperfect). If one is convinced the entire financial system is unstable for instance and the stock and bond markets will all go kaploee then maybe owning a house in the right area is relatively secure if those assumptions ever turned out to be correct. That there's a lot of risk from MY perspective as a working person to owning a house (the #1 being inability to easily move for J.O.B.s!!!), is just my situation, and I take it for granted the situation will be different for a person that is already retired for example, and doesn't need to go where the jobs are, or a person who is lucky enough to have a profession that they can always easily find jobs close by, or a self-employed person etc..
Rents in Seattle are high and going up. There is no rent control. I can't imagine having roommates; I could hardly imagine it when I was 18. The very last thing I'd do is give up my house, personally, unless there was a cheaper, nicer one waiting in the wings.Roommates now for freedom later - freedom from work and roommates :-)! Getting roommates can be a way to remain in your home and earn money, and it doesn't have to be long term either. In my case my take home pay (after taxes and maxing out my 457 deferred comp plan) was $3000/month. I owed ex-hubby his share of the house which I kept in the divorce, plus the nearly full mortgage (only had the place a year & 1/2 before divorce) as well as had 6 pets and the regular household expenses. Like Redfox I didn't want to move or get a small apt (or couldn't because of having so many pets) so maximizing my income was the only way to get out of debt. One way was to work a second job or as much OT as I could, another was to reduce my expenditures to the serious barebones, and a third was to get a couple of roommates. So I did that for 4 years and not only paid off ex-dh, but paid off my mortgage and saved a bit too. Then I let the roommates go and soon after quit the job to become the lazy beach volleyball bum I am today :-)!. So while I didn't like the idea of having roommates or working OT and a second job, it was all a very short term temporary thing that literally paid for my future freedom. Then, not too long after I quit my job, I sold the house and bought a smaller less expensive place in an area I liked better and that bought me my FI
It makes good strategic sense, that's for sure. I guess with the right roommate...
Well, since redfox abandoned this thread, I don't mind hijacking it...
Another town I would like living in is Brandon, VT. It's not as big as Burlington (which, of course, is not "big"), but it is pretty walkable, and the people are great.
Look at this awesome house for $186,000!!! (BTW, my home's value is about 375,000 in Central NJ)
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2430-Town-Farm-Rd_Brandon_VT_05733_M40991-70107?row=6&source=web
ETA this one in Burlington. I'd give up the ability to garden etc. because it's condo living, but it's very, very walkable and right next to the great Japanese restaurant I ate at last night and 4 blocks to my son's house.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4-Strong-St-Burlington-VT-05401/2112616455_zpid/OMG you guys are torturing (and tempting) me...... Just sold the SoCal place (and happy to leave here after the 90 plus degree weather this weekend - My Kingdom for some snow!!!). I love New England and have always longed to move back there so maybe now's the time. I will rent though as once the snow starts flying again SoCal heat waves may look darn good!
rodeosweetheart
3-17-14, 12:14pm
OMG you guys are torturing (and tempting) me...... Just sold the SoCal place (and happy to leave here after the 90 plus degree weather this weekend - My Kingdom for some snow!!!). I love New England and have always longed to move back there so maybe now's the time. I will rent though as once the snow starts flying again SoCal heat waves may look darn good!
I actually like this one best:
http://www.century21.com/property/24-bridle-path-leicester-vt-05733-C2137806259-O10013905
It's only $83000, has a couple of acres, looks like it has a barn, large enough for everyone to gather, or to take in a roommate if need be.
It could be beautiful with some work!
" But if as a retiree I have low income, then higher Real estate taxes/0 state income taxes really is not a godo deal for me."(Iris Lily)
This is what I have been pondering the last few days. How do folks stay in their home on a fixed income with the kind of property taxes you see in Burlington and in Chicagoland area, where we used to live?
Although some places give you exemptions from parts of the taxes if you are over 65--as in NY state, where you did not pay the school tax if you were over 65, which helped a lot.
But aren't you better off in a state with higher income tax and lower property taxes upon retirement, or am I missing something?That is probably the only good thing about owning a home in Calif - the property taxes are at a fixed rate of 1% of the purchase price and then can't go up by more than 2% per year. And school taxes, etc... are also tied to that same purchase price amount for the life of ownership. So the percent you pay for those other taxes are based on the purchase price not the fair market price even if many decades later. So if you bought a place for $100K the property taxes would be $1000/year and only go up by approx. $20 each year there after. And you can transfer that tax rate to a new place once you are over 55 as long as the new place you buy is equal to or less then what you sold your old place for. For example: if you bought a place 10 years ago for $100K and now your annual property taxes are around $1200. Then sold it for $500K and bought a new place for $500K you could transfer your old rate of $1200 to the new place rather than have to pay the $5000 (1%) you'd normally pay. That's what many retirees here do. That is one reason I'd probably rent if I lived elsewhere because I wouldn't be able to afford the high increases in property taxes that seems common in other places.
I also think I'd rather live in a state with high income taxes and low property taxes since I live on a fairly small taxable retirement income that - at least in Calif - is below the state income tax amounts so didn't have to pay any taxes (fed or state) this year. Not too many ways to lower your property tax rate but you can usually find ways to lower your income tax rates. Especially in retirement.
It makes good strategic sense, that's for sure. I guess with the right roommate...Sven:devil::devil:
I actually like this one best:
http://www.century21.com/property/24-bridle-path-leicester-vt-05733-C2137806259-O10013905
It's only $83000, has a couple of acres, looks like it has a barn, large enough for everyone to gather, or to take in a roommate if need be.
It could be beautiful with some work!Very cute! It's shocking to see prices so low for so much in places outside of Calif. Not much you can buy around here for that price (a cardboard box maybe :-)!) unless you go far out into the more remote areas of the desert. I am more a city dweller and wouldn't want to own a house with land at all (UGH too much work!) but a nice little cape cod house on a very tiny lot in a city like Burlington, Portland, or Portsmouth would be great. Or just a dinky apt right in the city center would be best for me. I do look at lots of long term vacation rentals up there (usually available from after Labor Day to Memorial day) and they can be a very inexpensive way to live in a new place until deciding where someone would want to live.
Teacher Terry
3-17-14, 2:12pm
My sister was just in Pittsburgh for a vacation and said the urban area was surprisingly beautiful.
Sven:devil::devil:
I was thinking more along the lines of Arturo... http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/other/heart.gif
I was thinking more along the lines of Arturo... http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/other/heart.gif Well I did say I had "2" roommates :-)!
I think the roommate thing - or really anything a person does to try to earn some money to pay off debt, mortgage or to save for the future - is best if it's temporary. And that's what I was really trying to say to Redfox. That if she wants to keep the house and the mortgage while trying to pay off the big student loan and other debts, then sometimes some sacrifices and uncomfortableness needs to happen. I didn't really like having roommates or working so much OT or having to get a second job but it was a huge help when I needed help. Now, with only one small dog, I'd choose to sell the house and be debt-free asap rather than go the roommate or second job/OT route again. I just can't imagine loving a place so much that I would sacrifice what little time I have on this earth to have to pay for it and constantly worry when the next axe might fall - such as Redfox's cancer coming back (praying that it won't!). I'm a financial wimp and worry-wart if ever there was one and can't sleep at night if things weight on me financially. And I do need all the beauty sleep I can get too! But I know that other's are made of stronger stuff (you Jane and Redfox for sure - must be living in that PNW climate!) so probably handle those kinds of things better then me. And I know that other's DO love their homes so much that making certain sacrifices - like working for many years longer - would be really worth it to them.
IL, I just had that conversation with DIL. A house is just a house, as Burt Bacharach said, or something along the lines of a house is a house and a home is the people inside (grossly paraphrased)
Emotion is chaining me (or I should say DH) to our house. I know unequivocally that I should sell both my house and BIL's house in which we have 50% interest. I would sell both, rent for a couple of years and save up money for a smaller house in a less expensive area. I mean, it just makes sense.
I do prize the memories I have of raising my children there, and those memories are handcuffing DH's emotions to the house (my handcuffs are more the chinese handcuff type--I'm still attached, but feel I can escape my cuffs much more easily), and he refuses to entertain even a discussion of moving. I'm in Burlington VT right now, and would love to take him on a home tour just to get him thinking that JUST MAYBE there are other places he could be happy living in.
I hate to say it but these are some of the reasons I never re-married. I'm bad at making compromises even on a good day, so it would be very hard for me to have to compromise like you are doing. But if someone loves their home (or 'hood or the memories) then it's hard to get them to change. If I were to marry say the current BF (who's 10 years younger then me and not anywhere near retirement or quitting his job) I'd have to continue living around here for a couple of more decades for his job and family and, yes, his beloved house, that would kill me. And he really wouldn't want to move out of SoCal anyways (unless it's too Hawaii) as he is a total SoCal surfer volleyball beach boy. If it get colder then 70 he may actually freeze to death (IHHO). So choosing to remain single can have it's benefits sometimes :-)! But maybe your DH will see the light someday to. I think taking him to Vermont as often as possible will make that happen. And if he won't go you can always take me :-)!
Teacher Terry
3-17-14, 11:06pm
Sometimes the sacrifices are well worth it though. Just a thought that if you are always just trying to worry about yourself there might come a day that you will regret it & wished you had put the person above all else-or maybe not:|(.
Sometimes the sacrifices are well worth it though. Just a thought that if you are always just trying to worry about yourself there might come a day that you will regret it & wished you had put the person above all else-or maybe not:|(.
Well it's not so much about always worrying about myself, but more one of compatibility. I think for both people in a relationship to be happy both need to be OK, for the most part, with whatever compromises and sacrifices they need to make for the relationship. If they aren't, then neither person will be happy or fulfilled with their life. I was married a long time and we both made a lot of compromises and sacrifices so that the other could be happy and fulfilled. Unfortunately it ended up leaving both of us unhappy and unfulfilled after making so many compromises. So now I would rather be alone (or at least not in a permanent relationship) then be in a relationship with someone for whom I (or he) has to make too many compromises and/or sacrifices to our lives in order to be together. Now if I was already with someone (married or in a committed relationship) then I imagine I'd be more flexible. But as a single person I'd rather be with someone who shares much of the same life goals as I do or I'd rather stay single and unattached. It's the same with a guy who's a huge spender or very materialistic or deeply in debt because of frivolous spending - I wouldn't want to marry him either because it would require too much of a change in the simple lifestyle I want. Although I will be happy to let him take me to dinner :devil::devil:
ApatheticNoMore
3-18-14, 8:12pm
If I were to marry say the current BF (who's 10 years younger then me and not anywhere near retirement or quitting his job) I'd have to continue living around here for a couple of more decades for his job and family and, yes, his beloved house, that would kill me. And he really wouldn't want to move out of SoCal anyways (unless it's too Hawaii) as he is a total SoCal surfer volleyball beach boy. If it get colder then 70 he may actually freeze to death (IHHO).
So the guy wants commitment, wants to stay in SoCal, and I don't know if he's my dating age range but it's possible. If you don't want him: send him my way :) If it gets less than 70 I'll put the heater on for us cause BRRRR :)
Teacher Terry
3-18-14, 8:34pm
Awesome:cool:
So the guy wants commitment, wants to stay in SoCal, and I don't know if he's my dating age range but it's possible. If you don't want him: send him my way :) If it gets less than 70 I'll put the heater on for us cause BRRRR :)Ha Ha!! And he's nice and good looking too! Yes, I know, I'm crazy (or so say my female friends) but he wants what he wants, and I want what I want - which is to not stay in SoCal for the next 20 - 25 years and possibly beyond while he works. And if you remember he was a big reason I moved back down here to this area. But I wouldn't want him to give up his lifestyle and job, both of which he loves, just to please me any more then he would want me to change mine just to please him. And anyway, somewhere out there the legendary Sven awaits - if Jane V.2 hasn't nabbed him yet :-)!
ANM, surely you can think of other ways to keep warm than put on the heater if it gets below 70... :-)
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