View Full Version : Giving up meat
I have become an evo-lacto vegetarian (I hope I have this right). I have given up meat, poultry, fish. I still eat eggs and dairy, but trying to reduce these categories. My reasons are two-fold. One is for health. I do not trust any meat products because of antibiotics and hormones used. The second reason is my stance against what I consider extreme cruelty to animals raised for food by corporate agri-business. I have watched many documentaries and now I cannot in good conscience eat animal food when such atrocities are taking place.
It helps that I love rice, beans, vegetables and fruits. I do not miss meat in the least.
Do any of you subscribe to my reasons?
Linda
I used to, for about 15 years, only eating wild animals I harvested myself.
Now I have the great good fortune to live in a place where I can observe the animals being raised humanely by people I like and trust, and so will consume locally-sourced meat.
Lucky for us, we have access to meat raised very well, with a solid chain of product in practices that are demonstrably healthy & sustainable, by a reputable area cooperative. It is possible to find local meat producers one can trust in many parts of the country. Our meat consumption is also very modest, for both health reasons, and because organic, free range, local meat is expensive. As it should be.
I'm vegan. So yes, I totally get where you are coming from. Let me know if you need any help on your new path.
..., and because organic, free range, local meat is expensive. As it should be.
Bunny trail here. My kid has done a lot of 4H work. I've seen first-hand what it costs to properly raise animals.
I have no idea how those prices you see in the newspaper come to be, unless there are huge subsidies and horrible conditions involved.
Yes, I eat very minimal meat for the reasons you are citing. And I also agree with bae and redfox that I feel more comfortable eating meat when I can see first-hand how the animal lived. I have a local meat provider who took me on a tour and introduced his cattle by name.
I eat some meat but mostly legumes and veggies these days because i like them the best, the price is very frugal and the variety in dishes is amazing. We have local humanely grown meat sources where the animals are grazing in the fields but I will buy the odd burger grilled at the local butcher as a treat only.
Our dairy farming policies are more humane than the US, I believe, as well so dairy that I make into yogurt and icecream is part of my diet.
I worry more about the pesticides in the grains, BTW.
onlinemoniker
2-23-14, 9:26am
I am vegan as well. You're two listed reasons are the most typical reasons and they sustain many in their decision.
Bae: Yes, there are "horrible conditions involved."
Recently I have been more interested in the health benefits. I have done a lot of research and come to the realization that all meat is junk food, akin to doritos, pop tarts and snickers bars, despite it's high protein content.
SteveinMN
2-23-14, 11:46am
We do eat meat, but the vast majority of it comes from our food co-op, which sells only meat from animals from producers which essentially are audited to ensure the animals live under good conditions, are not fed routine antibiotics/unnatural diets, etc. Like the others, we don't eat much of it partially out of the expense and partially because, even under optimal conditions, raising chickens/cattle/pigs is not a very carbon-efficient process.
I stopped eating red meat several years ago - I eat poultry and fish and small amounts of dairy and eggs. I also try to stay away from processed products made with these (other than cheese). I buy better raised when I can, but it's expensive.
Thank you all for your responses. My only regret in avoiding meat is that I waited so long to do this. I will be 70 this year and I think with age I have become much more sensitive to all living things on this planet. I look out my windows and marvel at the beautiful trees, birds, sky and sunshine. I am so grateful for it all. I don't want to seem maudelin but I have been able to slow down and really appreciate the world around me so much more.
Linda
Like others on this thread, I eat humane-certified animal source foods from sources as local as possible. No health concerns; humans evolved as omnivores eating significant quantities of meat, and the 30% of the world population with full lactase-persistence inherited the enzymes adapted over the last 7,500 years if we're of European descent, and 3,000 years if not.
Gardenarian
2-24-14, 5:39pm
Thank you all for your responses. My only regret in avoiding meat is that I waited so long to do this. I will be 70 this year and I think with age I have become much more sensitive to all living things on this planet. I look out my windows and marvel at the beautiful trees, birds, sky and sunshine. I am so grateful for it all. I don't want to seem maudelin but I have been able to slow down and really appreciate the world around me so much more.
Linda
+1
Peace and sunshine, Polliwog!
Great thread topic! I'll soon celebrate 25 years(!!!) of managing my ms through the brilliance of one remarkable physician whom I saw as a patient for ten years...the legendary Dr. Roy L. Swank. The diet to manage this disease is verry low saturated one, with some unsaturated fats allowed for energy purposes. It does allow a very small amount of animal protein, but careful restraint- must be used.
That was the starting point for me, as it's success was UNBelievable. I was told, "you have in the top third of the worst cases they'd ever seen & have " a few good years left". NOPE!!! ;) This saved my life, so you can see why i embraced it and went further, later. The transition to veganism followed after 15 years. It's a PROCESS, to be sure, with dairy,(nonfat yogurt fondness) being the toughest and last hurdle. I think...i'm finally THERE though. How can I NOT be when I experienced such incredible relief from what can be a devastating disease? I was 32 by the way, when dx'ed.
Dr.Swank mentored many, but in particular, Dr. John Mcdougall, who has always espoused a complete vegan approach for just about any medical challenge.( His site...is a remarkable resource!!) & I continue to study his work through the site, you tube video's etc. More and more of my peers are going this way, as the internet has given us tremendous insight into not only valuable health & nutrition discoveries, but the -atrocities- of factory farming. So...what began for health reasons, has broadened to include ethical ones.
Hoping we like minds can connect here! It really is, all about the food ;)
Best to all!
My thoughts exactly Linda! That was beautifully stated!
Bacawind! Ahhhh, i see you're in Colorado! I was a C.Springs resident for twelve years and it was in that great state that I truly expanded my dietary world! Such an AWARE and evolved place and room for everyone. Miss it alot...living in Fla. is so hugely ~different. Do you follow dr.mcdougall.com? at all? Wow...what a doc he is indeed...he and his wife Linda work so hard to raise awareness about the HEALTH issues related to the SAD (standard american diet) way of life in this country. Nice to find you here!
I have become an evo-lacto vegetarian (I hope I have this right). I have given up meat, poultry, fish. I still eat eggs and dairy, but trying to reduce these categories. My reasons are two-fold. One is for health. I do not trust any meat products because of antibiotics and hormones used. The second reason is my stance against what I consider extreme cruelty to animals raised for food by corporate agri-business. I have watched many documentaries and now I cannot in good conscience eat animal food when such atrocities are taking place.
It helps that I love rice, beans, vegetables and fruits. I do not miss meat in the least.
Do any of you subscribe to my reasons?
LindaI haven't eaten beef, pork or poultry in almost five years, mostly due to the inherent cruelty associated with the raising of animals for food, and more importantly, the manner in which animals are dispatched in the interest of preparing them for sale as food. Even the so-called "cruelty-free" farms still employ measures that I contend are morally offensive to inflict on thinking, feeling beings.
I've recently started eating fish again. This was prompted by two factors: First, health: I was never able to transition to a vegan diet, and nor to a vegetarian diet that didn't rely too heavily on dairy. My doctor (who specializes in integrative medicine) wasn't happy with some of my numbers, and swapping out fish for dairy made her a lot happier. Second, I don't see the moral issue as black and white because not every animal is the same: There is a legitimate question as to what extent different animals have different levels of cognition and how that translates into the quality of cruelty they can perceive. In the first edition of Animal Liberation (1975, HarperCollins), Peter Singer made the point that mollusks almost surely don't possess the level of cognition necessary to perceive the cruelty we're talking about. He's changed his position, but to deny the relevant difference between a pig and a clam is without merit imho. I think it is utterly ridiculous to look at any system, natural or artificial, in a strictly black-and-white manner. The world simply doesn't work that way.
And I also agree with bae and redfox that I feel more comfortable eating meat when I can see first-hand how the animal lived.I feel that it is necessary to see not just how the animal lived, but how it died, to fully appreciate the matter the OP brings up.
onlinemoniker
3-6-14, 4:13pm
bUU--I see your point and agree in many respects. I know a squid is not suffering. For me, I just don't want to eat anything that is an animal or comes from an animal because I don't want to think about it. In my case, once going down the judging what's ok and not is the beginning of a slippery slope.
That said, I agree with you. Eating fish is a lot less cruel than dairy. So, so agree with your comments on "processing."
But, all the ethics aside. I have NEVER felt better or been healthier in my life than I am now as a vegan. I feel phenomenal. All the time. I didn't do this for health but what an unexpected, delightful bonus!
Great thread topic! I'll soon celebrate 25 years(!!!) of managing my ms through the brilliance of one remarkable physician whom I saw as a patient for ten years...the legendary Dr. Roy L. Swank. The diet to manage this disease is verry low saturated one, with some unsaturated fats allowed for energy purposes. It does allow a very small amount of animal protein, but careful restraint- must be used.
That was the starting point for me, as it's success was UNBelievable. I was told, "you have in the top third of the worst cases they'd ever seen & have " a few good years left". NOPE!!! ;) This saved my life, so you can see why i embraced it and went further, later. The transition to veganism followed after 15 years. It's a PROCESS, to be sure, with dairy,(nonfat yogurt fondness) being the toughest and last hurdle. I think...i'm finally THERE though. How can I NOT be when I experienced such incredible relief from what can be a devastating disease? I was 32 by the way, when dx'ed.
Dr.Swank mentored many, but in particular, Dr. John Mcdougall, who has always espoused a complete vegan approach for just about any medical challenge.( His site...is a remarkable resource!!) & I continue to study his work through the site, you tube video's etc. More and more of my peers are going this way, as the internet has given us tremendous insight into not only valuable health & nutrition discoveries, but the -atrocities- of factory farming. So...what began for health reasons, has broadened to include ethical ones.
Hoping we like minds can connect here! It really is, all about the food ;)
Best to all!
Burghgrl,
Wow, that is quite a testamonial regarding your MS and how becoming a Vegan has helped. I'm inspired because I too have a potentially life threatening lung disease. Hence, my desire to do everything I can to help myself live longer. From everything I have read, I understand that one can get all the protein one needs from a plant-based diet. I am not Vegan yet. I agree it is a process. My neighbor is Vegan but she was a vegetarian for probably 20 years first, beginning when she was 8 years old. Dairy is hard to give up but I am making progress. I do not drink milk anymore (and I have always loved ice cold milk!); I am using less cheese and giving up sour cream. I don't eat ice cream.
It is great to see everyone's comments. We can all learn from each other. :thankyou:
Linda
Is called The China study. I'll say no more. If THIS doesnt open eyes, ...:confused:
Burghgrl,
Wow, that is quite a testamonial regarding your MS and how becoming a Vegan has helped. I'm inspired because I too have a potentially life threatening lung disease. Hence, my desire to do everything I can to help myself live longer. From everything I have read, I understand that one can get all the protein one needs from a plant-based diet. I am not Vegan yet. I agree it is a process. My neighbor is Vegan but she was a vegetarian for probably 20 years first, beginning when she was 8 years old. Dairy is hard to give up but I am making progress. I do not drink milk anymore (and I have always loved ice cold milk!); I am using less cheese and giving up sour cream. I don't eat ice cream.
It is great to see everyone's comments. We can all learn from each other. :thankyou:
Linda
I've never understood how "fish is less cruel than dairy." I've seen the nets coming in and the fish flopping their lives out, and the boats sloshing with fish blood.
Burghgrl,
Just curious and don't answer if you don't want to, but are you or did you take traditional MS meds like interferons throughout this dietary journey? I'm simply curious, because I like hearing about how "alternative therapies" (read:good diet) can work with or in place of Western medicine.
I've never understood how "fish is less cruel than dairy." I've seen the nets coming in and the fish flopping their lives out, and the boats sloshing with fish blood.The explanation hinges on what neuroscience informs us about the differences in the capacity of cognition of different species.
It's only fair to say that The China Study is being vigorously disputed. Even The Vegan Outreach Society considers it questionable, pointing out that Campbell's statistics show that smoking and drinking are unrelated to cancer!
http://www.veganoutreach.org/articles/healthargument.html
Some of Campbell's conclusions are leaps of faith. For example, he says that feeding very large quantities of purified casein (a milk protein) to rats specially bred to be highly sensitive to cancer, rats that are injected daily with carcinogens, causes rapid growth of tumours. From this, he claims proof that all animal proteins in their natural form, eaten in normal amounts, under normal conditions, cause cancer. He claims that feeding plant proteins doesn't do the same thing. However, what he doesn't say in The China Study, even though it's in his published scientific paper, is that when plant proteins are mixed to produce complete protein with all 22 amino acids, like casein, then the rats are just as tumour-ridden as the casein-fed ones. Further, the rats that survived the longest were those eating casein. It seems odd that he would not foreground these facts, given that vegans mix plant proteins all the time in order to get the full range of amino acids.
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/22/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer/
An in-depth analysis of Campbell's statistical work can be found here:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/06/final-china-study-response-html/
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/07/31/one-year-later-the-china-study-revisited-and-re-bashed/
Quite apart from whether or not The China Study is reliable, there's the issue of individual biochemistry. Humans are very variable. Some of us produce 30 times as much stomach acid in a day as others. Some of us need much more of a particular nutrient than others. Some of us don't produce particular enzymes and can't convert nutrients from inert to active form. Some people do very well as vegans, some genuinely never thrive as vegans. Here's a longterm study of longterm vegans, by a vegan doctor, nutritionist, and activist: http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1969466-fwd-the-vegan-health-study-from-michael-klaper-md-very-long-email/
I think that each person needs to work out his/her best diet. If one's personal beliefs lead to veganism, that's fine. Be aware of the possible pitfalls, closely monitor one's body's response, eat mindfully, critically weigh up books and studies, and read as many conflicting viewpoints as possible. Get the best information possible for making decisions. That's exactly the same for ovo-lacto vegetarians, pescatarians, and any shade of omnivore. Given the enormous amount of work being done on nutritional individuality, I think that one day babies will be food-typed at birth just as they're blood-typed now.
Thanks for taking time to post that, especially Denise Minger's meticulous dissection of Campbell's ideology-driven iteration of the China study.
Burghgrl,
Just curious and don't answer if you don't want to, but are you or did you take traditional MS meds like interferons throughout this dietary journey? I'm simply curious, because I like hearing about how "alternative therapies" (read:good diet) can work with or in place of Western medicine.
Hi Catherine,...hope I'm responding to your question in the right place ;). No, thankfully, I never took any of them. When first dx'ed, they put me on a massive amount of oral steroids, which were ~HORRENDOUS. Dr. Swank never, ever used them. I was quite fortunate to have learned of him before any of the "miracle" drugs were introduced you see.Fortunate,~ I was. Do check out Dr. Mcdougall.com's site sometime, or read the China study. You'll find it FASCINATING indeed.
Alternatively, Dr. Terry Wahls manages her progressive MS with a paleo-style diet primarily composed of animal protein, vegetables, and fruit. Her second book (after Minding My Mitochondria), The Wahls Protocol, will be released in about a week.
The Storyteller
3-10-14, 2:34pm
David Katz makes a good argument against excessive meat consumption, although vegans don't get off scott free.
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140310151139-23027997-meat-eating-humans-mightier-than-lions-feebler-than-ants?utm_content=bufferb3529&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&_mSplash=1
ApatheticNoMore
3-10-14, 3:23pm
David Katz makes a good argument against excessive meat consumption, although vegans don't get off scott free.
https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/...fer&_mSplash=1
It seems a very odd argument to make, the planet is overpopulated so don't eat meat, rather than the much more obvious one: the planet is overpopulated so have less kids! Of course I suppose you win the prize for sustainability if you are both vegan AND childfree
Right or wrong, having children is apparently considered an inviolable entitlement by the vast majority of people in the world.
The Storyteller
3-10-14, 5:46pm
It seems a very odd argument to make, the planet is overpopulated so don't eat meat, rather than the much more obvious one: the planet is overpopulated so have less kids!
I don't follow. So by not making both arguments, the one he did make is somehow invalid? Dr. Katz is a nutrition researcher (http://www.yalegriffinprc.org/) and writer. So, that is what he writes about. He is making an argument from the point of view of diet.
Besides, there isn't much we can do about people having more kids. We can, however, do something about what we eat.
I'm not vegan, or a vegetarian, but there are certainly good points to both. We can eat healthfully with either diet, or with including some meat. So, if someone chooses to forgo meat eating, I can find very little reason to argue against it.
The explanation hinges on what neuroscience informs us about the differences in the capacity of cognition of different species.
While I agree with you that neuroscience does reveal great differences in the cognition capacity of different species, I believe that fish feel pain and fear even if they don't understand why this is happening to them. I still don't see why feeding and milking a cow is more cruel than killing a fish, especially if the cow lives out her life on a humane-certified farm.
What is the end-game for our various domesticated client species, if we give up raising them for food?
What happens to the domesticated cow for instance? Where will that species roam freely, and succeed? Or are we content to send them quietly off to extinction?
The Storyteller
3-11-14, 3:54pm
There is a wide spectrum of animal welfare that I have placed in a hierarchy for my own approach to eating meat, eggs, or dairy. From the worst to the least worst in my order of avoidance. Assume the beginning to be factory farmed animals...
Pigs
Pigs are about the worst because of how they are housed and treated, and because of their high intelligence. Tests have shown they are about as smart as dogs, so the smartest of our food animals. And they are highly social. Farrow stalls are horrible, without room for a sow to even turn around. She is kept there for almost her entire adult life. 100% of the factory farmed pork is produced this way, with a sow giving birth in a farrow stall. Those that are destined for the table are not much better treated.
Dairy cows
Most diary cows are kept in pretty much the same conditions as the mother sow. I only place them a little better off than the pig because they aren't nearly as bright. Still, they suffer. Cows are meant to roam green pastures and drink from ponds and streams or at least stock tanks. It is very difficult for me to get humanely produced dairy, so I have pretty much given it up, even with the evidence diary isn't quite as bad as it used to be thought. Of course, the fact I spent every morning of my youth milking twice a day, getting up at 3:30 in the morning every school day, and 1:30 weekends and summers to help milk 120+ cows probably doesn’t help. :)
Battery cage hens
6 birds in a tiny cage their entire short, laying life in a building with a million (sometimes literally) other birds. I don’t think I have to go on a bout that. Of course, they are so stupid that many of them seem quite contented because they have no clue there is a better world out there, so that’s why I don’t have them higher on my list.
Meat chickens
350,000 birds in a building without light, butchered at the age of 4 to 8 weeks. They grow best if fed animal protein. That protein often comes in the form of ground up spent laying hens (see above) added to the feed mix. ‘nuff said.
Beef cattle
Contrary to popular myth, beef cattle live pretty decent lives most of their life. They are started on pasture, and live in the great outdoors for the first year and a half to two years of their existence. It is only in their last 6 months to a year they are fed a steady diet of grains in manure sometimes up to their bellies. If I’m forced to eat factory farm meat, it is beef, except for when I have access to...
Farmed fish
Confined and mass raised, but not smart enough to know any better. As long as they aren’t packed so tight they are highly stressed (which would be bad business, because they wouldn’t grow as well), they are sort of okay.
Anything raised confined but under relatively humane conditions. Cage free laying hens come to mind.
Anything raised humanely on a smaller scale.
Anything raised humanely and sustainably (they aren’t always the same thing) on a smaller scale, living the way they are meant to live (chickens outdoors and sratching in the dirt, cattle on pasture, pigs in woods with plenty of water, etc.
Anything that lives wild, then killed for food. That includes fish. That is the best way for an animal to live, although not that much better than the chickens and turkeys I raise for eggs and food. Which are better protected and probably better fed and cared for, but may not be quite as well off as a wild animal.
Actually, maybe that’s a toss up. :)
But that is just because I raise them and know exactly how they lived and died. I wouldn't automatically assume a farm or slaughterhouse was humane just because someone else certifies it. I would need to see if for myself.
Know your farmer, know your food.
Thank you, Storyteller. Your post just makes me so sad for all living creatures treated inhumanely. This includes people, and especially children. As I have posted, I have given up all meat, poultry, and fish. Now I am working on dairy. I stopped drinking milk and I do not buy sour cream or cottage cheese. But I do use grated cheddar on my tortillas. I still eat honey.
Linda
new2oregon
3-11-14, 5:43pm
To everyone that is trying to get healthy good work. I thought I would post this link because there is some good info. http://www.healthchecksystems.com/eatright.htm
Here is my view on things. If you eat more whole foods and less processed food and make an effort to eat less meat, cheese, etc. you are heading in the right direction. I don't believe you have to give up meat, fish, Dairy all together just eat in moderation. Most people can be on no medications if you eat right. Storyteller, good job on your progress and I agree with you about the Factory farms. I started watching what I eat, walking every day and I feel so much better, so little changes add up.
What is the end-game for our various domesticated client species, if we give up raising them for food?
What happens to the domesticated cow for instance? Where will that species roam freely, and succeed? Or are we content to send them quietly off to extinction?
I really don't think we have to worry about that. Cattle have been around for thousands and thousands of years, and I don't think vegetarians and vegans are a very big threat to the National Cattlemen's Association.
Sounds like you're saying that the cows should thank us for wanting to eat them because at least they are given a life. When I went to a Benedictine retreat, they served one vegetarian and one non-vegetarian entree for dinner every night. They raised the animals at the Priory. Some of the monks believed that it was a proper cycle of life--they gave the animals a good life (which they did) and the monks were grateful for the animals' sacrifice. They were eaten mindfully. Other monks couldn't stand the thought of eating their "friends" so they ate vegetarian.
But honestly, in most cases, if I were an animal living the kind of miserable lives we provide them, I'd say thanks, but no thanks.
While I agree with you that neuroscience does reveal great differences in the cognition capacity of different species, I believe that fish feel pain and fear even if they don't understand why this is happening to them. I still don't see why feeding and milking a cow is more cruel than killing a fish
I probably misconstrued your earlier question, but I have a question for you here: Do you see how you acknowledged something as shades of grey (differences in cognition capacity) and then implied a conclusion that was based on a black and white premise (fish feel pain)?
Sorry if I annoy anyone, but I take issue with two defenses offered here for eating meat. They remind me of the all arguable benefits we hear of consuming alcohol and pot or chocolate, yet the only valid reason is pleasure. One, is the idea that we are doing particular species a favor by breeding them as livestock. Oherwise, they face extinction, right? Cattle and hogs are a very long ways from their ancestors in the wild. They have been selectively overbred, much like the popular breeds of dogs that then have all kinds of congenital defects. It is a circular argument that reminds me of the comical bumper sticker "If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?". The second problem I have is the rationale of consuming what I'll call "Politically-Correct Meat". Range Fed, whatever. I guess this is supposed to alleviate the guilt. But, it's like only being a little bit pregnant, isn't it? Do what you must do to satisfy your cravings, but trying to convince me that you've somehow made it virtuous, like a "Holy War", is wasted effort. Oh, yes; one other rationale:--JOBS! Meat creates JOBS!--for ranchers and truck drivers and migrant workers and cardiologists and oncologists, etc. Don't forget that one.
goldensmom
3-14-14, 3:03pm
Sorry if I annoy anyone, but I take issue with two defenses offered here for eating meat. They remind me of the all arguable benefits we hear of consuming alcohol and pot or chocolate, yet the only valid reason is pleasure. One, is the idea that we are doing particular species a favor by breeding them as livestock. Oherwise, they face extinction, right? Cattle and hogs are a very long ways from their ancestors in the wild. They have been selectively overbred, much like the popular breeds of dogs that then have all kinds of congenital defects. It is a circular argument that reminds me of the comical bumper sticker "If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?". The second problem I have is the rationale of consuming what I'll call "Politically-Correct Meat". Range Fed, whatever. I guess this is supposed to alleviate the guilt. But, it's like only being a little bit pregnant, isn't it? Do what you must do to satisfy your cravings, but trying to convince me that you've somehow made it virtuous, like a "Holy War", is wasted effort. Oh, yes; one other rationale:--JOBS! Meat creates JOBS!--for ranchers and truck drivers and migrant workers and cardiologists and oncologists, etc. Don't forget that one.
1. What guilt?
2. I don't think anyone is trying to convince anyone of anything, just offering information and stating opinions.
Miss Cellane
3-14-14, 3:19pm
This thread has taken some interesting turns.
I have tried twice, for 4 years and 3 years respectively, to be a vegetarian. Both attempts left me with severe anemia that was not helped all that much by taking massive iron supplements. Despite working with a doctor who was all for vegetarianism and also a dietician during the second attempt, nothing seemed to work.
I have found that for my personal optimal health, I need a little animal protein. This works out to about three or four servings of chicken, beef or fish per week, on average, with some dairy, like a serving of yogurt, daily.
Like so many other things in life, I've had to come to a compromise. I felt eating animals raised by commercial interests in the US was wrong, bad for the animals. But I also was not willing to risk my health, to be permanently tired and fatigued and unable to participate in life the way I wanted to, either.
Heck, as a little kid, I would leave beef or chicken on my plate, but I would eat broccoli and beets and asparagus. Drove my mother nuts. It wasn't that I was concerned about the animals back then, I just preferred the vegetables.
So I try to eat lower on the food chain than beef. I get my chicken from a backyard farmer who has a flock of Buff Orpingtons. He also sells me free-range eggs. I get fish from a guy who has a fishing boat down on the bay. Beef's a little harder, as I live in dairy country, not beef cattle country. So I try to get organic beef--there's a butcher shop several towns over that specializes in organic meats.
It's not perfect. But what in life is?
I think the important thing in choosing your diet (by which I mean how you eat, not a weight-loss plan), is to be aware of what and how you eat. There is no one perfect diet that is optimal for every single person on the planet. Some people can't eat dairy, some can't tolerate gluten, some can't have soy or peanuts or strawberries or any of a number of otherwise healthy foods.
My goal is to tread lightly on our food sources. I eat wheat, but I bake my own bread. I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit. I eat potatoes because I like them. I can't be perfect, but I can try to be better.
As for the OP, clearly she has been on a journey to get to this point. I wish her long life and happiness and good health--and I hope her new resolution to go vegan gets her there.
1. What guilt?
2. I don't think anyone is trying to convince anyone of anything, just offering information and stating opinions.
1. "The" Guilt 2a) You don't think so, but I do; this forum is certainly capable of influencing people. 2b) I was offering information and stating opinions, as well. Sorry if you are upset with my comments, but it is a controversial topic. I don't know for sure, but I would guess by your reaction that you have an economic steak(pun intended)or some background in the meat business.
One of the classic vegan ploys is to portray meat eaters as addicts--another is to accuse them of somehow profiting from meat production. It's pretty tiresome.
I can take meat or leave it. I left it for about six years without a twinge of desire as I gained weight and became ever more sluggish. I'm healthier and happier when I eat meat. YMMV.
IMO, what adults choose to feed themselves is entirely up to them.
goldensmom
3-14-14, 5:15pm
1. "The" Guilt 2a) You don't think so, but I do; this forum is certainly capable of influencing people. 2b) I was offering information and stating opinions, as well. Sorry if you are upset with my comments, but it is a controversial topic. I don't know for sure, but I would guess by your reaction that you have an economic steak(pun intended)or some background in the meat business.
I'm not upset nor do I see controversy, I just see people. FYI, no connection to meat industry past or present.
onlinemoniker
3-14-14, 6:47pm
I've never understood how "fish is less cruel than dairy." I've seen the nets coming in and the fish flopping their lives out, and the boats sloshing with fish blood.
The calf is taken from it's mother immediately upon birth and put into a veal crate. The mother bellows incessantly for her calf for days after the birth (as any mother would.) Most male calves born become veal, not beef cattle.
This is the only way the dairy industry is possible and the only way it happens.
Yes, fishing is cruel and gross. I don't eat fish either but I personally feel the dairy industry (along with its byproducts) is more cruel.
This is the only way the dairy industry is possible and the only way it happens.
Doesn't seem to be how it happens in my neighborhood. So clearly there is another way...
onlinemoniker
3-14-14, 7:01pm
One of the classic vegan ploys is to portray meat eaters as addicts--another is to accuse them of somehow profiting from meat production. It's pretty tiresome.
I can take meat or leave it. I left it for about six years without a twinge of desire as I gained weight and became ever more sluggish. I'm healthier and happier when I eat meat. YMMV.
IMO, what adults choose to feed themselves is entirely up to them.
Jane: I have been vegan for 9 years and I have never heard of a list of vegan "ploys" classic or otherwise. I have never heard anyone accuse a meat-eater of having ties to the meat industry or being an addict.
I don't know if you were vegan while you were not eating meat but my personal opinion is that dairy is more detrimental to the human diet than meat. The cholesterol in butter, cheese and ice cream is far greater than any other animal product. Not to mention the hormones and proteins found in milk that are designed to turn a 60lb calf into a 400 pound cow in less than a year.
Is it possible that when you dumped meat you inadvertently substituted more dairy than you had previously been consuming? Dairy is really very bad for humans--and yes, it leaches calcium from the bones because the high protein acidifies the blood and dumping calcium helps buffer the acidity.
If you gave up dairy along with the meat I am convinced you would see weight loss and if not, certainly not weight gain. I've never known of someone who went vegan who gained weight on the diet except someone who was low-fat raw who went to a cooked vegan diet.
onlinemoniker
3-14-14, 7:06pm
Doesn't seem to be how it happens in my neighborhood. So clearly there is another way...
If you're really interested in finding out what the other way that "seems" to be what's going on in your neighborhood, I'd suggest you go ask your local dairy farmer what goes he does. You say all your meat is locally sourced, this should be an effortless task if you really want to know.
For that matter, I'd really like to know. I know of no other way to make a mammal lactate than by making her pregnant and waiting until she gives birth. And I've never seen a picture of a baby calf sucking on a the teat of her mother while the others were hooked up to a milking machine.
But if that's what you want to believe, go for it.
Ok, well, settings adjusted.
If you don't think there are vegan talking points, you don't get around much. And they mostly devolve into name-calling. :(
I was a vegan for two months, during which time my health really went to hell--TMI snipped. Maybe dairy is a problem for some--after all, we've only been eating it for around 10,000 years--and many of us have genes that make it problematic, but I've given it up from time to time (most recently 30 days in a whole 30) and haven't noticed any big changes. My bones are fine; research shows that older women who eat more protein--in the presence of adequate calcium--have stronger bones. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12392151
I'm always tweaking what I eat, but some version of paleo/primal will probably be what I end up with.
onlinemoniker
3-14-14, 8:56pm
If you don't think there are vegan talking points, you don't get around much. And they mostly devolve into name-calling. :(
I do get around much. But I don't listen to the 20-year-old-holier-than thous. They tend to want to change the world and make everyone a vegan. And they tend to spout the vitriol. But that is the nature of 20-year-olds.
While I would love it everyone were a vegan, I don't delude myself that I can make anyone do anything. But one can always dream...
I do read a lot about vegan nutrition and how it compares to SAD nutrition. And I am convinced that a well-planned vegan diet is the healthiest diet on the planet.
That said, it was your experience and you know what you experienced. I was just suggesting something that may have been an answer for your situation.
Good luck in your ongoing nutritional journey!
I do get around much. But I don't listen to the 20-year-old-holier-than thous. They tend to want to change the world and make everyone a vegan. And they tend to spout the vitriol. But that is the nature of 20-year-olds. ...
That said, it was your experience and you know what you experienced. I was just suggesting something that may have been an answer for your situation.
Good luck in your ongoing nutritional journey!
Good point about the rabid young idealists--best ignored, for one's mental health. :doh:
I do get around much. But I don't listen to the 20-year-old-holier-than thous. They tend to want to change the world and make everyone a vegan. And they tend to spout the vitriol. But that is the nature of 20-year-olds.
I really had to spew-laugh, I can vouch for Packy as a 60+ year old man. He ain't a 20 year old who wants to save the world. I believe (but he can correct me) that he ingests a fair amount of cheese.
If you're really interested in finding out what the other way that "seems" to be what's going on in your neighborhood, I'd suggest you go ask your local dairy farmer what goes he does. You say all your meat is locally sourced, this should be an effortless task if you really want to know. Two problems with what you're suggesting. First, farmers have a vested interest in keeping the distasteful details of their industry from even their best friends. Heck, there are things about software development that I don't discuss except in the anonymity of the Internet. Second, even with direct access to the actual information, people who want to do a think have a vested interest in finding rationalization for doing it, assessing the harm in a less prejudicial way, or otherwise shielding themselves from feeling bad about what it is they do. I don't want to think about what it takes to make the Kefir I rely on to help rebuild the colonies of good bacteria in my colon after suffering from colitis, or to help add a little richness to the otherwise umami-poor bean and rice. People don't want to admit these limitations within themselves to you, and in line with another thread active this morning, it is uncivil to push them to do so beyond a certain point (and I think you're at that point).
Miss Cellane
3-15-14, 8:01am
I do get around much. But I don't listen to the 20-year-old-holier-than thous. They tend to want to change the world and make everyone a vegan. And they tend to spout the vitriol. But that is the nature of 20-year-olds.
While I would love it everyone were a vegan, I don't delude myself that I can make anyone do anything. But one can always dream...
I do read a lot about vegan nutrition and how it compares to SAD nutrition. And I am convinced that a well-planned vegan diet is the healthiest diet on the planet.
That said, it was your experience and you know what you experienced. I was just suggesting something that may have been an answer for your situation.
Good luck in your ongoing nutritional journey!
Define "healthy."
The thing is, I pretty much agree with you that a vegan diet is, overall, a healthy diet.
But not for me. And not for some other posters on this thread. So I disagree that a vegan diet is the "healthiest" diet possible for all people.
I think there are many healthy diets out there in the world. Some work for some people; some don't. But I don't think that there is *one* holy grail of a diet that will work for every single person on the planet. Our bodies are too different; there are too many things that work for one person that don't work for another.
My nephew can't eat wheat (not a gluten issue, he is allergic to wheat), dairy or soy. Yet there are healthy diets that include all three. But they would not be healthy for my nephew.
We tend towards absolutism in our thinking. There must be *one* best diet, *one* best cure for the common cold, *one* best this and *one* best that. When the reality is that there are many good choices, some better than others, to be sure, but depending on your own particular needs, the *one* best choice for you may not work for your family and friends. And that's okay, unless you push your own agenda on those around you.
onlinemoniker
3-15-14, 9:31am
Two problems with what you're suggesting. First, farmers have a vested interest in keeping the distasteful details of their industry from even their best friends.
Second, even with direct access to the actual information, people who want to do a think have a vested interest in finding rationalization for doing it, assessing the harm in a less prejudicial way, or otherwise shielding themselves from feeling bad about what it is they do.
People don't want to admit these limitations within themselves to you, and in line with another thread active this morning, it is uncivil to push them to do so beyond a certain point (and I think you're at that point).
bUU:I agree, you may be correct on the first point. But it doesn't take a lot of research for someone to find out what's going on in the dairy industry if they're really interested.
I totally understand what you're saying regarding rationalization. We all do it in life. Including me. But the poster had just dismissed my prior comment with an offhand remark based on what appeared to be the case of farmers in his neighborhood without considering that my post may have been researched or well-thought. And the poster offered nothing but speculation as to why what I stated was wrong.
The fact is that I have done a considerable amount of reading and research on this topic and my original comment was not a direct challenge to the poster you feel I offended. I was making a factual statement about common practice in the dairy industry in a thread titled "giving up meat." The original poster of the thread stated she was interested in expanding her current vegetarian status to veganism because of what she considered the "extreme cruelty to animals raised for food by corporate agri-business." Every comment I have made in the thread has been an effort to help support the OP's decision to expand from vegetarianism to veganism.
I do not see this thread as a discussion of whether one should follow a vegetarian or omnivore diet but rather as offering support to the original poster who is struggling with making a change in her life. Many other posters have decided that they want to chime in with their opinion about whether vegetarianism is a necessary healthy or ethical choice and many have tried to rationalize their decision to continue to consume animal products.
I do not understand why anyone who doesn't support the OP's choice would comment in this thread except that this seems to be that tone of this forum. Argument for the sake of argument is the norm here and by no means is restricted to the Simple Public Policy area of the forum. Judgment and insults are hurled here regardless of the topic which is why I think yesterday's thread to which you referred was started.
I have not been a member here long, but I have lurked a LONG TIME. I have observed there are certain people on this forum who think it's their responsibility to be little gadflies and try to get under other's skins apparently just because they like to argue even if the discussion is vegetarianism or paying off one's mortgage and has nothing to do with politics.
When I think of simple living, I think of placidity and peace not the vitriol and contention that seems to be the norm around here. Since I registered, I've read several comments by posters lamenting the fact the site has few members and little traffic. Maybe that's because those interested in Simple Living come here and see that it's just more of the same they find in the Complex Living world filled with stress which is the antithesis of what they're trying to obtain in their personal lives.
I only commented on this thread when it became less about Polliwog's dietary choices and more about pontificating on the thought patterns of omnivores. As I said earlier, what one chooses to eat should be their business.
Most of us are aware that animal husbandry in this time or place leaves something to be desired.
Whenever these dietary topics come up, I always think how lucky we are to have so many choices. There are valid arguments for every type but like the op, I am choosing and trying to eat less meat. It just feels right for me at this point in life. When I was little, the lyrics to a song performed by Joan Baez stick in my mind all these years:
On a wagon bound for market
There's a calf with a mournful eye
High above him there's a swallow
Winging swiftly through the sky
How the winds are laughing
They laugh with all their might
Laugh and laugh the whole day through
And half the summer's night
"Stop complaining", said the farmer
Who told you a calf to be?
Why don't you have wings to fly with
Like the swallow so proud and free?
How the winds are laughing
They laugh with all their might
Laugh and laugh the whole day through
And half the summer's night
Calves are easily bound and slaughtered
Never knowing the reason why
But whoever treasures freedom
Like the swallow has learned to fly
Miss Cellane
3-15-14, 11:04am
Whenever these dietary topics come up, I always think how lucky we are to have so many choices.
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That's a very good point. I was thinking about this thread yesterday and thought that it was one of those first world problems. You know, not worrying about having enough to eat, or how to afford enough food, or fuel to cook it, but Oh Dear Lord, having to pick and choose between all the millions of options we have of what to eat and how to cook it.
I took my middle-class Turkish sister-in-law to her first US supermarket. "Stunned" does not quite capture her reaction to the sheer amount of food choices.
The Storyteller
3-15-14, 11:27am
The second problem I have is the rationale of consuming what I'll call "Politically-Correct Meat". Range Fed, whatever. I guess this is supposed to alleviate the guilt.
Actually, there is a kernel of truth in that, at least in my case.
Once I learned what I now know about factory farming, I very much felt guilty for continuing to eat meat produced by such a system. However, I learned about the much more humane practices, bought a farm, and began to produce my own meat. I now feel no guilt for eating meat whatsoever, even when I am in the process of killing it with my own hands. I raised it from chick or poult or kit or kid to butcher age and know exactly how it lived its life and how it died. I am satisfied I am doing the right thing. Whether others agree with that matters not a whit to me.
I have in general great admiration for vegans and vegetarians, whether they are for health or ethical reasons. If I didn't have access to humanely produced meat and eggs, I would be a vegan, too. I already avoid dairy because I can't find humanely produced milk or cheese in my area. My dairy farmer sold out and moved to Virginia to work with Joel Salatin.
Speaking of dairies, I know for a fact, from both personal experience of working on several dairies and from observing my former dairy farmer that not everyone puts their bull calves in veal crates. Most ethical farmers sell their calves to local farmers or friends or as in the case of my former dairyman run their milk steers with their meat breeds on grass. A holstein steer puts on a lot of weight in a short amount of time and has no problem putting on 400 pounds in a year, without grains, animal proteins, or hormone implants. The same isn't true of factory farms, which is where ethical vegans should focus their anger and attention. Hyperbole and incorrect information gets them nowhere, particularly when they waste it on alternative systems that are doing far more for the environment and the humane treatment of animals than most vegans ever will.
I do agree with one thing some have said... you should know how your meat lived and died. I encourage my customers (yes, I'm in the "meat industry", and proudly so, if you can call the piddly amount of money I make on it "industry") to come visit the farm and see how my animals live, then come visit on butcher day to see how they die. Some do. Some even come over to help with the killing and evisceration and cleanup. Those people know more about where their food comes from than just about anyone else out there.
And if you do visit such a system as ours and come away disapproving of it, then by all means, you SHOULD become a vegan. Because if you can't take this , you certainly souldn't be involved with the system veiled in secrecy and hidden away from view that is the factory farm.
I hope those of you that are "ethical" vegans/vegetarians are working for the better treatment of animals across industries. One of the things I realized during my years as a vegetarian is that my avoiding meat wasn't saving lives or indeed making life a bit better for any animal anywhere. The only animals I saved during that time were a couple of wandering cats I took in.
The Storyteller
3-15-14, 11:48am
One more thing...
Vegans in general are in better health than most meat eaters, but then most meat eaters follow the SAD, which is a very unhealthy way to eat. Anyone who departs from the Standard American Diet and highly processed foods in general is likely to be thinner and more healthy generally.
But one can consume just as much junk food and pack away just as many calories on a vegan diet as anyone who eats meat and cheese. Coke is, after all, completely vegan, and pasta and potatoes are as well. The amount of calories we consume is at least as important as where those calories came from. I have seen fat, unhealthy vegans and vegetarians.
I wasn't a junk food vegetarian, but unless you limit yourself to fruit, vegetables, soy, and nuts, you're likely to have a very starch-heavy diet. Beans and rice, for example. So if you're prone to hyperinsulinemia you're going to pump out lots of insulin, have blood sugar issues, be constantly hungry, and gain weight.
And. unless you grow all your own food and carefully pick all the pests off your plants, you're complicit in the millions of deaths of mice, rabbits, voles, birds, etc. resulting from agricultural practices. Soy monoculture, as well as corn and wheat, is particularly egregious. Perhaps we should all become breatharians.
flowerseverywhere
4-17-14, 7:48am
Fascinating discussion. Just decided to go vegan as my cholesterol, bp and hemoglobin a1 c are all creeping up. My both Dil's, one son are vegan, the rest eat some dairy and meat and are all super healthy. But they are also young and get a lot of exercise, don't smoke and have little alcohol which also contributes a bunch to your well being. To each his own.
Funny story, ore, when I did literacy volunteers I worked with a young woman from Asia. She said when she first immigrated to this country she went to the grocery store with a woman from her sponsoring church. She couldn't figure out where the food was. We have aisles of boxes, cans , pouches and jars, and regardless of if you eat some meat or dairy or what, reading the labels on these boxes makes me wonder how any of us survive with any level of health today. Add to this the lines we see at fast food places and chain restaurants and as a society we have totally lost our minds when it comes to food. We are eating massive amounts of salt, chemicals, sugar and fats when we eat the way normal Americans do.
I don't eat a lot of meat, and I believe I could give it up without much problem...except, bacon. It would always call me to the dark side. :0!
catherine
4-17-14, 12:37pm
I hope those of you that are "ethical" vegans/vegetarians are working for the better treatment of animals across industries. One of the things I realized during my years as a vegetarian is that my avoiding meat wasn't saving lives or indeed making life a bit better for any animal anywhere. The only animals I saved during that time were a couple of wandering cats I took in.
OK, so there's no cow out there earmarked as "Jane's cow" who is wiping her brow because you passed on eating beef, but it's like Kant's Universal Law--if everyone cut down on meat eating, there would be a lot less aggregate animal suffering--especially if the factory farms were forced to change their practices, as you said.
Thich Nhat Hanh says, "Even eating less meat is a miracle" which is how I look at it. And, since he teaches mindfulness, that's the other component of ethical eating--of any kind. Even if I decide to buy steak every week and enjoy it with my family (hopefully grassfed), I WILL enjoy it because of the gift I receive from the animal. There is no way in hell that I will ever breeze through a McDonald's drive-thru and wolf down a $1 burger, because that would be a mindless act, disrespecting the life of the creature that has been wrapped up and as devalued as a pack of pencils in the dollar store.
And as to your other comment about "all or nothing" ethics of growing food and picking off the pests--yes, we try to do what we can. We pick our battles and try to live with integrity with mindfulness of our own actions and without judging others. People who attack vegans who might have a pocketbook with a leather strap by pointing out inconsistencies is so counterproductive. None of us are perfect, and life isn't black and white.
From what I know about you Jane, I know you think so too. I realize vegetarians and vegans can be a self-righteous bunch, and that's a shame. That's why I don't label myself vegetarian, or lacto-ovarian vegetarian or any other '"arian." I just try to eat mindfully.
Wow, I step out for awhile and come back and there is a lively Vegan/Vegetarian threat going on! Reminds me of the Salad Spinner days! ;-)
I was vegetarian for about a decade, but when I stepped back and looked at what I was eating, despite giving up meat it was not very healthy. After reading Caldwell Esselstyn's book, "Prevent and reverse heart disease" - I gave it a go and flipped and became Vegan. Lost a bunch of weight and feel so much better. While eating meat is never an issue with me, dairy does on occasion call my name. So I still am working at eating more healthy*.
*heathly - to me is, less fat, less salt, less sugar - an organic plant based whole diet. More green veggies, fruits, whole grains - simple - foods as grown.
My results - lost weight 40+ lbs, heartburn gone, night sweats gone, arthristis pain almost completely gone, constipation gone, hemorrhoids gone (aren't you glad I shared), cholesterol dropped to 131, off high blood pressure meds, have more energy, etc.
The animal ethical thing came to me later. I just don't understand the whole factory farm thing - so inhumane, dirty, and when I see the pictures, I have to look away.
I mostly subscribe to your reasons. I don't think it is totally an either or situation, but that a person can eat limited amounts of meat and still have a healthy diet and avoid corporate agribusiness treatment of animals. Being strictly vegan goes beyond health and humanitarian reason to that of making a statement, either personally or publicly, IMO. Which is just fine. I find cooking, entertaining, and being a meal guest far easier when a little meat, raised appropriately, is acceptable. Beyond your good reasoning, beef and pork can be an inefficient use of resources and some say are a significant contributor to greenhouse gasses.
Fortunately I have never liked eggs other than for occasional baking. Cheese, generally speaking, is so unhealthy I use vegan cheese for almost everything where it is needed. At least as I get current health standards, though they seem to be a moving target.
Hey Polliwog - I am weighing in here too. I am vegan and for those two reasons.
1) my personal health is so dependent on eating a vegan diet
2) I will never ever eat meat, once my eyes were opened to factory farming.
Good for you. I am used to eating what I eat and I sometimes think I arrange food more than cook it.
I don't eat a lot of meat, and I believe I could give it up without much problem...except, bacon. It would always call me to the dark side. :0!
I recently saw Forks Over Knives and am now investigating whole foods plant based eating, but.... BACON! :0! I agree!
Hey Polliwog - I am weighing in here too. I am vegan and for those two reasons.
1) my personal health is so dependent on eating a vegan diet
2) I will never ever eat meat, once my eyes were opened to factory farming.
Good for you. I am used to eating what I eat and I sometimes think I arrange food more than cook it.
1. My personal health is extremely dependent on a diet that contains meat and bones.
2. I eat less, pay more, and get my meat (and other animal source foods) from small, pastured livestock operations, thus cutting out factory farms.
ButterflyBreath
5-12-14, 12:57am
I have been a lacto-ovo (eats dairy and eggs) vegetarian all my life until recently. In the past few years I have started to have a lot of fatigue and muscle weakness. Last year I decided to try to start eating a little meat (fish and foul only) but I could never get used to it. The difficulty I had with it is probably due to the thought of it, but also all new textures, smells and tastes. Too much to get used to, and my digestive system just doesn't have the right enzymes to process the meat.
I tried veganism for about a year in 2001-2002 and I found that my allergies were much better and my sinuses were clearer. I was just visiting my uncle who knows a lot about nutrition and he said we only need 10% of our diet from protein, way less than most people think. Not only that but no more than half of your protein should come from animal sources (dairy and eggs), and ideally it would all be from plant based sources. Any more than 5% protein from animal based sources is cancer promoting. He had a book about it where they did scientific research on this.
1. My personal health is extremely dependent on a diet that contains meat and bones.
2. I eat less, pay more, and get my meat (and other animal source foods) from small, pastured livestock operations, thus cutting out factory farms.
To what extent do you think DNA and roots factor into how well we do on different diets. In other words, if we all were to take that Ancestry.com DNA test to find out where our roots are, is there any reason to suspect that the vegetarians come from places where the growing season was longer and meat eaters come from the places where there was a short growing season and they had to depend on meat? Of course, I might debunk my own theory because I suspect there would be a lot of Northern European DNA present in my case, and I actually do really well on a vegetarian diet, even though I grew up on standard meat-and-potatoes. Just curious.
To what extent do you think DNA and roots factor into how well we do on different diets. In other words, if we all were to take that Ancestry.com DNA test to find out where our roots are, is there any reason to suspect that the vegetarians come from places where the growing season was longer and meat eaters come from the places where there was a short growing season and they had to depend on meat? Of course, I might debunk my own theory because I suspect there would be a lot of Northern European DNA present in my case, and I actually do really well on a vegetarian diet, even though I grew up on standard meat-and-potatoes. Just curious.
Hi Catherine,
There is a very high genetic component to our ability to deal with different diets. Each generation gets a fresh shuffle of genes, plus we're constantly evolving. Some of it is related to our regional origins, but a lot is sheer dumb luck. For example, about 25% of my DNA is northern Dutch/Afrikaner. I'm lactase-persistent as one might expect. But I can't eat fish or seafood, dietary staples for northern Dutch. My mother, sibs,and children all eat fish with no problems. My other ancestry is also European - Irish, English, Italian.
There are some regional trends. Patrick Simoons mapped caeliac disease, finding the highest incidence in groups with the shortest wheat-eating history. People with Middle Eastern ancestry do better with wheat. Lactase persistence is also regional, as northern Europeans, south-west Eurasians, and some groups of Africans, tolerate fresh milk very well. Lactase-persistence is murkier, as it's a dominant gene, so a person only needs one copy. Lactase-persistence is a case of convergent evolution driven by need to maximize food extraction from marginal grassland environments.
Starch-tolerance is also convergent evolution. Salivary Amylase 1 is a gene that occurs in variable copy numbers. The ancestral number is 2, shared with chimpanzees. Humans whose ancestors ate a starch-rich diet can have as many as 15 copies. The Hadza, hunter-gatherers who eat a lot of wild tubers, and the Japanese, who've been growing rice as a dietary staple for 10,000 years, average 6 copies. Tropical forest hunter-gatherers, on a low-starch ancestral, have few copies. Clearly, people with more copies tolerate starch better than those who inherited fewer.
Sugar enzymes: some people produce no sucrase at all, while others produce only small amounts. Fruit is a real dietary poison for those people. It's possible that the gene was lost in groups of people for whom fruit would not have been commonly available, and transmitted by interbreeding as populations started migrating and mixing.
We share ancestral genes for meat-eating with chimpanzees. Those genes evolved in tropical Africa before 5 million years ago, so long cold winters don't really come into it. Human ancestors really stepped up meat-eating about 1.8 - 2 million years ago, still in Africa, and in the East Africa region of the northern Rift Valley, and it's this dietary shift that very likely drove the sudden leap in brain size. The major dietary factor was bone marrow and brain, resources available to tool-wielding early humans but denied to nonhuman predators. Our brains are ~60% fat, and our nerves ~70%. These are not just any fats: a quarter of the brain's fat is cholesterol, and the rest is DHA and EPA, richly supplied by bone marrow and brain. So the building blocks of our big brain almost certainly came from meat-eating. There's good archaeological evidence for this - stone tools, cut-marked bones, bones that have been cracked for marrow, and disproportionate numbers of large antelope skulls, likely scavenged from predator kills, that were carried to home sites and broken open to get at the brain.
Around 250,000 years ago, the Apo-E3 gene, which is unique to humans and associated with meat-eating. Fully modern humans evolved in East Africa and spread from there, first ~195,000 years ago, and then in a big pulse ~60,000 years ago. There's a whole family of these Apo-E genes, and depending on which variant a person has the most of, they strongly affect his/her ability to digest and assimilate meat and animal fat, as well as brain and nerve function.
While humans can convert ALA (found in plants) to first EPA and then DHA, the rate varies from as much as 10% conversion for genetically-blessed humans to less than 1%. EPA and DHA are vital for the maintenance and functioning of the brain and nervous system, and deficiencies are associated with neurological and depressive disorders. I have a neurological disorder that sporadically causes loss of myelin sheathing in my peripheral nervous system, usually with an upsurge in migraine attacks. It stays in remission while I'm eating plenty of good bone broths and animal source foods from pastured livestock. This may tie in with ancestry: my northern Dutch forebears migrated to South Africa in 1588, and for over 300 years their staple diet was meat, eggs, and dairy foods. Most of South Africa is not conducive to grain growing, especially wheat. It's only since the mid-1950s that cultivars were bred that would grow reliably in the Free State, Transvaal, and Natal, and these need to be irrigated. To get back to the point: over this 3 1/2 centuries, there was very strong genetic selection for people who were good at digesting animal source foods.
Hypoglycaemics are sensitive to both sugars and starches. They have a hair-trigger pancreas and very likely an altered insulin metabolism. Many chronic migraineurs are hypoglycaemic; they have altered insulin metabolism and altered mitochondrial function. It's murky, because migraineurs fall into 3 constellations, each with its own comorbidities and triggers. I'm in constellation 2, and my comorbidities are best handled by a diet high in omega-3 essential fatty acids. My ALA conversion rate is very poor, so I need my DHA and EPA preformed.
Ability to thrive on a vegan/vegetarian diet depends on ability to convert carotenes, found in plant foods, into vitamin A. Those of us who don't do this well need it preformed. When I was first ovolactovegetarian and then vegan, my skin became yellowish-orange from carotenes deposited in my meagre stores of subcutaneous fat and showing through my very thin skin. Does this inability stem from a couple of centuries of high dependence on foods rich in vitamin A, so that our bodies didn't need to make it? Maybe! Once I added meat back into my diet, the colour gradually faded over the next two years, and my skin thickened to a reasonable level. It was so thin before that any bump or nick would bruise or bleed profusely.
Then there's vitamin B12. For people who with low levels of intrinsic factor and stomach acid, it's hard to maintain good stores of B12. Some people are able to recycle B12 well, with small losses, so that it can take them two or more years to deplete their stores, while the less-fortunate may burn through theirs in 3 months. I can go from good serum B12 to frank deficiency in 90 days. Does this reflect the centuries when my ancestors ate very rich B12 sources, so selection for B12 efficiency was relaxed?
Then there's iron. Some people have a higher need for heme iron, while others bioaccumulate it to dangerous levels. My three servings of red meat per week keep my iron levels at the lowest end of normal. Cut out the meat, and my ferritin levels plummet, despite a diet rich in non-heme iron and vitamin C.
Legumes are a poor protein source for some. Legumes tend to be starch-rich, and that in itself can be problematic. For migraineurs, some factor in legumes irritates the trigeminal nerve, which is why they're on the NO! list. I proved, very painfully and repeatedly, that this is the case for me, despite my love of legumes and my determination to be the exception. Even prolonged leaching to get rid of tannins, and very long, slow cooking, didn't save me. This is weird, because my Afrikaner and northern Dutch ancestors ate a lot of dried beans. Some people struggle with legume sugars, for which humans don't produce enzymes. We're dependent on colon bacteria to digest them. Gut bacteria are weird; it's thought that once the gut has been colonized by random bacteria after birth, the bacteria change the gut to make it impossible for other bacterial guilds to survive. While the ratios of various bacteria within the gut colony shift somewhat with dietary changes, they don't change radically to another guild.
This is a very long answer! To sum up, I'd say that to succeed as a vegan, a person needs
Low protein requirements
High ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA
High starch-tolerance and good insulin sensitivity
Low heme iron requirements
High ability to convert carotenes to vitamin A
High ability to convert shorter-chain fatty acids to longer chain forms
High ability to convert essential amino acids to the so-called non-essential or conditionally essential amino acids
Good tolerance for high-fibre diets (some people lose their gut villi if they eat too much insoluble fibre for their personal tolerance)
Good ability to ferment fibre in the caecum and colon, for the production of volatile fatty acids
How much of this can be traced to deep-time ancestry, how much to recent ancestry, and how much to luck-of-the-draw gene shuffle - I don't know!
Very interesting info, Suzanne. Thanks.
Suzanne, you dazzle me with your understanding of nutrition and how it affects you personally.
My genetic background is about 95% Northern/Central European. But more importantly, I have a genetic tendency toward hyperinsulinemia/hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism, which renders starchy carbohydrates and unfermented soy products problematic for me. I suspect my physiology is very similar to Suzanne's, from the way my body reacts to various foods.
Suzanne, you dazzle me with your understanding of nutrition and how it affects you personally.
My genetic background is about 95% Northern/Central European. But more importantly, I have a genetic tendency toward hyperinsulinemia/hypoglycemia and hypothyroidism, which renders starchy carbohydrates and unfermented soy products problematic for me. I suspect my physiology is very similar to Suzanne's, from the way my body reacts to various foods.
Jane, you are so right! I'm hypoglycaemic and hypothyroid!
ButterflyBreath
5-13-14, 1:33am
I have had genetic testing done on 23andme.com. I wanted some health info and this was the least expensive way to do it. It says I'm 99.9% European. I came from Poland, Ireland, France, and a little from Germany. Oddly I have Arab genes from my moms side. Predominately Northern European though.
My mom says they tried to get me to eat meat when I was younger and I wouldn't. My dad denies that though. They fight and have differing views on everything. So I don't know. Wouldn't Northern Europe be cold and necessitate that inhabitants eat meat? Maybe I was meant to eat meat but was born into the wrong religion, Seventh Day Adventism, which predominately teaches vegetarianism.
I have had genetic testing done on 23andme.com. I wanted some health info and this was the least expensive way to do it. It says I'm 99.9% European. I came from Poland, Ireland, France, and a little from Germany. Oddly I have Arab genes from my moms side. Predominately Northern European though.
My mom says they tried to get me to eat meat when I was younger and I wouldn't. My dad denies that though. They fight and have differing views on everything. So I don't know. Wouldn't Northern Europe be cold and necessitate that inhabitants eat meat? Maybe I was meant to eat meat but was born into the wrong religion, Seventh Day Adventism, which predominately teaches vegetarianism.
Or maybe you have that predominant Arab gene going way back to the Fertile Crescent! Or, maybe, as Suzanne says, it's just the roll of the dice.
BTW, Suzanne, yes, I always look forward to your insights on food and nutrition. Thanks for the reply to my question!
I think meat-eating is more about seasonality than just about cold, as well as the kind of environment in which one lives. During seasons that are very dry and hot, few plants can be harvested from the wild (maybe tubers, roots, bulbs, and corms, if you're in a good place for those!) or grown without irrigation. Nonhuman animals can make good use of plant material - like dry grass, or twigs and hard leaves, that humans can't eat, so humans eat other animals. The same holds true for very cold regions, with or without snow and ice. When Homo erectus took up meat-eating in a big way, it was in tropical East Africa, during a time when grasslands were expanding enormously. Meat is very easily dried or salted and can be stored for long periods. However, lean meat alone is a poor energy source, and needs to be supplemented with fat or carbohydrates. In very cold regions, fat is much easier to come by (fatty sea mammals, birds preparing for migration), while storable carbohydrates tend to be in short supply.
I am definitely not saying that everybody HAS to eat animal source foods to be healthy. Choice to abstain is simply that, a choice. Meat-abstention can't be supported by evolutionary claims, or one-size-fits-all claims of veganism as a perfect or even natural diet. People with the right biochemistry can do very well without meat or other animal products, provided they have the nutritional knowledge and financial resources to craft a diet that meets all their needs. However, people who don't have the lucky genotype either have to support their belief systems by using artificial supplements or accept themselves and eat meat. Again, simply eating meat doesn't guarantee good health and longevity - the whole diet still has to be carefully crafted for the individual.
I know I've quoted him before, but this long email from the vegan doctor and researcher Michael Klaper is excellent reading regardless of dietary orientation! http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1969466-fwd-the-vegan-health-study-from-michael-klaper-md-very-long-email/
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