View Full Version : How to get the homeless off the streets
OK, what are your plans on solving the homeless problem. I remember driving through a part of town when I was a kid in the early 70's that had government housing. They were basically shacks, they dosed them down and built apt. buildings, in 5 years it was back to being a slum. People take better care of things when they have to earn it.
Why don't we send them to Detroit? There are plenty of abandoned or cheap homes that the government probably already owns. We can give them some tools and materials to fix the places up themself's and they can farm the vacant lots. Some can do other things to help contribute to the community. It could be a Socialist's utopia.
Some could maybe even drive the buses to transport them there.
I used to spend a fair bit of time in the Tenderloin District in SF. From my observations, there is a certain baseline level of the homeless population that can not resolve their problems on their own - they need treatment and care.
For the rest, Lenin said: “He who does not work shall not eat”.
The place where I currently live attracts a certain homeless element. We have a moderate climate, plenty of places to squat on others' land or even in their unoccupied houses, a very functional food bank, lots of food just for the taking in the woods and on the land, free walk-in health care at several of our clinics, and a very progressive caring population. Because of the logistics of getting here in the first place, these are people who have decided to locate here for the "easy" living, and had their life together enough to locate us and figure out how to get here - they are not typically locals down-on-their-luck who lost their homes.
Tricky business.
Ok, let's go:
1. Your husband beat the shit out of you & your home is now unsafe for you & your kids? Here's your ticket to Detroit!
2. Your mental illness means you cannot hold a job, which means you have no access to care that might help you manage that illness? Blammo! Ticket to Detroit.
3. Your parents hate Gay people, and you're a Gay 16 year old who just got beat up by her Dad? Off to Detroit.
4. Apartment building burned down? 20 tickets to Detroit.
5. You're an Iraq Vet, and untreated PTSD has you seeing shooters in every doorway, so you can't stay inside? Detroit, my man!
6. You're under the age of 12, and your parent just lost her job? Better likes foraging in Detroit.
Next idea.
Gardenarian
3-3-14, 3:37pm
There are many different reasons why people are homeless.
For the temporary homeless, safe shelters and job-seeking and/or training help are probably the most important measures. I'm thinking of women with children who were left in the lurch, people who lost their homes due to debt, etc.
There are many people who need help with addictions. We need social workers and hospitals and possibly housing for these.
There are the many mentally ill, who need some sort of permanent housing solution.
I believe that people are willing to donate their time, money, and energy to help the homeless. Right now there is a waste of resources because of duplication of effort. Various organizations try to help, but I really think this needs to be administrated (but not completely funded) by State or Federal government.
Surly some of those who are homeless through no fault of their own have skills. Some may even be social workers. Detroit has cheap housing. Many like yourself could go and supervise the rebuild.
Whats your answer?
There are many different reasons why people are homeless.
For the temporary homeless, safe shelters and job-seeking and/or training help are probably the most important measures. I'm think of women with children who were left in the lurch, people who lost their homes due to debt, etc.
There are many people who need help with addictions. We need social workers and hospitals and possibly housing for these.
There are the many mentally ill, who need some sort of permanent housing solution.
I believe that people are willing to donate their time, money, and energy to help the homeless. Right now there is a waste of resources because of duplication of effort. Various organizations try to help, but I really think this needs to be administrated (but not completely funded) by State or Federal government.
This actually sounds reasonable, but we can still send some to Detroit.
Surly some of those who are homeless through no fault of their own have skills. Some may even be social workers. Detroit has cheap housing. Many like yourself could go and supervise the rebuild.
Whats your answer?
My answer is many answers. Since there is no single cause of homelessness, one solution doesn't work. Regarding Detroit, if someone wants to move to Detroit, well, there it is.
For battered women: transitional shelters with support services, such as social workers to help them cope with the trauma of being beaten by their spouse. Child care so they can get their adult business taken care of in order to get back into their home. Lawyers to assist them during the legal process. Also, very strong domestic violence laws that put abusers in jail, so that those who have been victimized; yes, they are victims of violent crime; can get back into their homes.
For the mentally ill: state provided medical care, social workers, and housing. The research is very clear that it takes YEARS for the mentally ill to stabilize. And it is considerably cheaper, as well as much more humane, to provide free housing, food, and medical care, since the other option is jail.
For gay teens kicked out and victimized: Yes, indeed, being beaten means there is a perp and a victim. In some states, it's a crime to abandon your teen, so again, a perp & a victim. Safe shelter and foster care, state provided, so the teen can continue in school and graduate. Counseling to help them cope with the trauma. Transition program as for them, once they turn 18, to help them get into college.
When a fire strikes an apartment building, the Red Cross is first. If twenty families lose their homes, and don't have credit cards, family in the area, or lots of cash in the bank, then providing transitional housing, food, and mental health support helps them get back on their feet. It takes time to recover from losing one's home to a fire. I went through this 22 years ago.
For vets: a much, much more robust federal program that pays for medical care, especially mental health care, and housing while someone recovers from their injuries. However long that takes. They left a part of their healthy bodies and their soul on foreign soil. We owe them.
For poor children who are homeless because their parents lost a job: food stamps (the majority of food stamps go to children under the age of 12), safe and stable transitional housing, job search support, and medical coverage until the adult is employed again. For however long it takes. Because having children stabilized in their school means they are more likely to graduate, and break the cycle of poverty.
All of these solutions already exist. They are grievously underfunded in most cities, and if one only thinks of the dollar savings, providing basic life necessities until someone gets on their feet, even if it takes years, is cheaper than them cycling in and out of jail and the emergency rooms. From a humanitarian perspective, taking care of each other is what we do.
That smelly, disheveled man in the nice park you think of as an eyesore? He is someone's son. He may be someone's parent. Perhaps he's a vet with PTSD. Maybe he is mentally ill. Turning away from him only means that we are too scared to see the truth in front of us; that one of our own kind needs our help.
Thinking about my family, there's my great-grandfather who apparently was alcoholic and mentally ill, so my great-grandmother and grandfather lived with one of my relatives in CT and my great-grandfather was committed to an asylum--a dumping ground where they put everyone who just couldn't get by for many reasons. I'm not sure we want to go back to that model--but that was a "ship 'em elsewhere" solution--Willard Asylum was in upstate NY.
Then there's my father, an artist/carpenter who had an education, wealthy, educated parents, a beautiful wife and four children. My mother kicked him out for a wake-up call. He never "woke up" to a healthy life and depended upon St. Vincent's Home for Homeless Men in the Bowery, and died on the street at age 43. For that reason, I've volunteered at the Bowery Mission, where they have a really great food program, residential rehab program and an overnight shelter program. I think that program works well. But in NYC the homeless are pretty invisible and tend to coexist and blend in with everybody else.
Now, my brother had the same environment and opportunities that I did, but he has been alcoholic since he was 13. Luckily, he did a stint in the army, so he goes from living on the streets in Tampa, FL to living months at a time in residential housing provided by the VA. His brain has been fried for years, and he is pretty much unemployable.
Granted those are JUST examples of the effects of alcoholism on homelessness, and there are lots of alcoholics/addicts in the homeless population but Redfox and gardenarian gave great examples of other situations in which one might be homeless.
As I mentioned on another thread, I think if I had an unused area between two buildings up to the size of a half a block here in New Brunswick, I would try to get support from the city to come up with a gated and well-supervised "hooverville" of small, independent, private dwellings or pods. They could face inward around a courtyard that would have greenery, community gardens and benches. There could be a common building for food and clothing distribution. Homeless could "check in" and be approved, examined for weapons and drugs, and then given a key to a dwelling for the night. Those who are able could be asked to garden, sweep, etc. There could be segregated areas for men vs. women/families.
I'm sure there are other creative solutions, but that's mine.
By the way dmc, referencing your post in the other thread, I understand that in societies people need to pull their own weight wherever possible. Sometimes that's not possible, for a short time, or longer time, and then it's up to families and/or society to provide for those who can't. As the great-granddaughter, daughter, and sister of people who have been homeless, I can say I don't consider "liability" to be an appropriate, loving, or merciful way to describe them. You're a good, decent person, so I have a feeling that if you had walked in my shoes, you wouldn't think so either.
Wow, Catherine. Addiction is a disease, and often a terminal one, as you so well know. My nephew is a heroin addict. He's not homeless because my sister continues to house him, and it is taking a huge toll on her health. Thanks for telling your story, and for giving back.
They just announced on the news that there are 30,000 homeless children in Washington, and more homeless families every day. Last night's news announced that rents are being raised by enterprising landlords to two and three times what they were as buildings are being sold. Jobs are scarce, and employers want to hire people who already have them. Middle-aged people may age out of the job market. Often, families can't shelter together due to scarcity of appropriate housing. Just untidy collateral damage of the rich getting richer, it seems.
They just announced on the news that there are 30,000 homeless children in Washington, and more homeless families every day. Last night's news announced that rents are being raised by enterprising landlords to two and three times what they were as buildings are being sold. Jobs are scarce, and employers want to hire people who already have them. Middle-aged people may age out of the job market. Often, families can't shelter together due to scarcity of appropriate housing. Just untidy collateral damage of the rich getting richer, it seems.
Yes, the concentration of wealth at the top is surpassing that of the Robber Baron era. The last 40 years of undoing fiscal constraints has not yielded the promised rising tide that would float all boats. It is time to reinstate Glass-Steagall, among other policies. It's shameful that working families cannot afford the basics, and that children suffer.
I am a part of the movement for a $15/hour minimum wage in Seattle. The Feds estimate that it takes $18/hr to pay for basic housing, food, transportation and health care in our county. $15 is an improvement over the current $9+ change. I believe that everyone deserves a living wage.
Yes, definitely seems like a reasonable solution: Provide jobs at a living wage. Duh.
Yes, definitely seems like a reasonable solution: Provide jobs at a living wage. Duh.
Would you please run for public office?
How do these jobs get created?
What happens if a job isn't worth $15/hour to do?
How do these jobs get created?
What happens if a job isn't worth $15/hour to do?
Applies to existing jobs. "Worth" is a highly subjective concept. If it isn't "worth" $15 to do, then no one will do it.
The wage market is currently controlled via law. This only changes the dollar value.
Workers of the future, unite...
http://motherboard-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/content-images/article/tk/3eedb7aff97313ba43f78da9a9a7a16d.jpg
(Actually, those workers are from an existing, modern-day restaurant...)
And here's what McD's counter workers look like in higher-wage/benefits parts of the world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dC6eDmpKN8
I wonder how much job creation/contraction we will see.
I don't a good answer. I'm only known two homeless people with any great familiarity. Both were pretty much homeless by choice and had some affinity to the lifestyle, and neither had drug or alcohol problems that I knew of.
One was normal through college and got a degree but developed mental problems. In spite of family help from both mental professionals and start up money to get her settled into an apartment, she seemed to always end up back on the street. The other seemed to like the carefree lifestyle and didn't mind sleeping in junk cars or flop houses of some sort and would drift from one city to another often following the weather. His father was a doctor and a decent man and the son pretty much had access to money if he wanted or needed it.
I do have an idea for Detroit. I think it should be opened up to some sort modified homestead act.
I wonder how much job creation/contraction we will see.
Minimum wages have been established for over a half century, and have changed multiple times since then, with each iteration generating doomsday warnings that don't bear fruit. We will likely see some of both, and over what stretch of time do you consider the data? The first week? Month? Quarter? Year? 3-5 years?
How also do we calculate the multiplier effect of higher wages going into the local economy? Will there be a balance of higher wages/diminution of jobs in the short run, then as the market adapts, more jobs? Will this drive area prices up?
Most important to me is establishing wages by law which reflect the values of people being able to pay for their basic livelihoods, and meet their basic needs. It will lessen the impact in the public sector over time, to be sure.
The Seattle Mayor has established a working group to look at all these questions, as well as phasing in an increase. There seems to be reasonable representation from several sectors, including business, labor, and citizen advocates. I see an argument to establish the law for larger businesses first; Amazon, Microsoft, Starbucks, ( Costco already sets the standard for livable wages & benes. They are an example!) etc., and a later start for smaller businesses, with slimmer margins.
Minimum wages in my lifetime haven't been set with the intent to "provide a living wage". Raising the Seattle-area minimum wage from ~$9 to ~$15 seems a qualitative difference.
And why $15? Why not make it $25?
Minimum wages in my lifetime haven't been set with the intent to "provide a living wage". Raising the Seattle-area minimum wage from ~$9 to ~$15 seems a qualitative difference.
And why $15? Why not make it $25?
Yes, it is a shift in values, providing a living wage. Regarding the number, I honestly don't know why $15 was chosen and not $25.
I don't a good answer. I'm only known two homeless people with any great familiarity. Both were pretty much homeless by choice and had some affinity to the lifestyle, and neither had drug or alcohol problems that I knew of.
One was normal through college and got a degree but developed mental problems. In spite of family help from both mental professionals and start up money to get her settled into an apartment, she seemed to always end up back on the street. The other seemed to like the carefree lifestyle and didn't mind sleeping in junk cars or flop houses of some sort and would drift from one city to another often following the weather. His father was a doctor and a decent man and the son pretty much had access to money if he wanted or needed it.
I do have an idea for Detroit. I think it should be opened up to some sort modified homestead act.
I like this notion of a Homesteading Act for abandoned, blighted areas, Rogar, worth exploring to be sure. I wonder what the poor in a given neighborhood, and the current residents of Detroit would say?
I also wonder how anyone who has a diagnosed, untreated mental illness can be said to be "choosing" homelessness?
I also wonder how anyone who has a diagnosed, untreated mental illness can be said to be "choosing" homelessness?
It is complicated beyond my understanding but the same person also chose not to take medication, which would pretty much bring her back to earth. I believe her primary issue was schizophrenia. My sample size is obviously small and not representative, but there are homeless people like that.
Yes, it is a shift in values, providing a living wage.
And so arguing that the piddly increases we've seen in the past didn't produce unintended consequences is hardly convincing...
Y'all have rent control yet in Seattle, btw?
It is complicated beyond my understanding but the same person also chose not to take medication, which would pretty much bring her back to earth. I believe her primary issue was schizophrenia. My sample size is obviously small and not representative, but there are homeless people like that.
Being med non-compliant is quite typical for schizophrenia. It really not a choice; it's a part of the illness. My sis treats this population professionally, and the biggest a struggle for achieving baseline stability is meds compliance.
And so arguing that the piddly increases we've seen in the past didn't produce unintended consequences is hardly convincing...
Y'all have rent control yet in Seattle, btw?
Everything produces unintended consequences; that was definitely not my argument. I was referencing the classic business response that the sky would fall with wage increases, and it seems that businesses adapt.
No formal rent control in Seattle, just skyrocketing rents driving out economic diversity. Quite regrettable. I don't know enough about rent control to have a strong opinion. I do hold the value that our cities and neighborhoods need to meet the needs of area residents. One of the reasons that I think the Community Land Trust model of affordable home ownership is so rock solid. There's a CLT here, and I worked for it at one time. The ED estimated that 22,000 units in CLT leaseholdership would meet the market needs. I think they are at around 400.
Applies to existing jobs. "Worth" is a highly subjective concept. If it isn't "worth" $15 to do, then no one will do it.
The wage market is currently controlled via law. This only changes the dollar value.
How do these jobs get created?
What happens if a job isn't worth $15/hour to do?
Yes, and really we're talking about a mathematical problem with regard to this working poor situation. If enough people are homeless because they can't afford a roof over their heads because they don't make enough in a full-time job to pay for the rent in the area, you either have to subsidize the housing or raise the minimum wage.
And speaking of value, how much are the CEOs "worth"? Could some be over-valued by any chance?
As Rogar said, it really is very complex. You are right, bae, someone has to create the jobs. But I think about people like Ben & Jerry's in their growth days when there was a ratio of the lowest salary to the highest salary, and I hear Costco does it right. I'm sure there are existing models out there to learn from. However, I think the challenges run a lot deeper because the way the system is now, profits are favored over human capital and that's just it's nature--just like the scorpion crossing the river on the back of the frog. I wonder what we can do about that?
BTW, I, too, like the urban homesteading idea.
Being med non-compliant is quite typical for schizophrenia. It really not a choice; it's a part of the illness. My sis treats this population professionally, and the biggest a struggle for achieving baseline stability is meds compliance.
For some, the side effects of the medication are as bad--or worse--than the disease. Tardive dyskinesia is not pretty. I don't think there's much interest in improving medications for schizophrenia--not much profit in it.
I'd like to see clinical trials treating it by eliminating wheat, personally:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201103/wheat-and-schizophrenia-0
This is all complicated by the fact that many mentally ill people also have a substance abuse problem, and vice versa.
New antipsychotics have been developed in the last few decades which have a much lower side effect risk. And some of them cost nearly 1000 a month. But still cheaper than hospitalization which is over 1000 a day...
This is my life. Psychiatric nurse in the court ordered setting. No easy answers.
"Living wages" won't end and likely won't even dent homelessness. First of all, how many homeless folks have those regular jobs anyway? Or the skills to get one? Or the resources to get one (phone, bus pass, appropriate clothing, etc.)? Well beyond that, and like it or not, "work" is a commodity. That is NOT the same as saying that human beings are a commodity. They are not, but what they produce is. The price of any commodity is determined by supply and demand. If the supply of work available at the low end goes up, demand goes down. Any time there is an abundant supply and a completely satiated demand the price stays low. The immigration into the US is predominantly lacking in education and/or skills that fill a niche in demand much above minimum wage levels, so the supply of available work increases. Bae's robots may have a little Futurama element to them, but automation is removing the need for humans in all kinds of industries so the supply increases on TWO fronts (cheap mechanical labor and displaced humans). That trend is not going to slow down.
Its all tied together with poverty and resource allocation and really with our definitions of what makes a good life. Would you even care how much money the 1/100th of the 1% has if you didn't want or need money? If you are happy, why would you? Remember, money is also a commodity. If the demand for it goes down the supply will go up. If we, as a society find a different way to share our resources (other than just buying things) then things like income disparity will automatically become far less meaningful. Money would not be worthless because it is a very convenient form of trade, but it could easily become worth less. End of the abstruse rant of the day.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/18/star_trek_economy_federation_is_only_mostly_post_s carcity.html
Living wages can help prevent homelessness. It can also help keep working families off public assistance, increase stability in neighborhoods, and has a raft of supportive health indicators. Yes, money is a commodity; one that is required to buy adequate food & shelter in this society, hardly the abstract object that is implied by 'commodity'. Didn't our founding mother call money life energy? I work towards a world that works for all.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/18/star_trek_economy_federation_is_only_mostly_post_s carcity.html
Awesome!
I like the idea of:
"Under the circumstances nobody needs to work to survive and there's really no point in maintaining a cash economy. "
"The point of running your restaurant or your vineyard is essentially to show off your mastery, not accumulate wealth."
"Federation Credits exist primarily to let people consume government-provided by scarce resources. Housing, interstellar transportation, child and elder care, energy-intensive capital goods for your hobby/business. This is not a currency per se. It exists to ensure that there isn't wild overconsumption of goods that are nevertheless intended to be generally available."
Beam me up, Scotty!
From the horse's mouth: I'm going to re-post what I posted in the Review forum of a book I read which was authored by someone who panhandled for several months in the 1990s:
"Will Work for Food or $" by Bruce Moody. A memoir of his few months as a begger on the freeway ramp. He was just shy of 60 years old, a college grad, and had been laid off. He went through his savings, and was trying to get temp jobs, but it wasn't working. He was eventually greatly helped by a generous woman who paid him $15/hr to do some work at her home, which enabled him to save $90 to post an ad in the paper as a handyman, gaving him steady jobs thereafter.
Was fascinating to read what was going through his mind as he stood there for hours every day, and the difference a few dollars can make to people who are destitute. "
This is all complicated by the fact that many mentally ill people also have a substance abuse problem, and vice versa.
New antipsychotics have been developed in the last few decades which have a much lower side effect risk. And some of them cost nearly 1000 a month. But still cheaper than hospitalization which is over 1000 a day...
This is my life. Psychiatric nurse in the court ordered setting. No easy answers.
My my sis is a state licensed MHP. She works nights on call in the ER & jails, determining whether someone is legally detainable on an involuntary 72 mental health hold.
Just finished a book called Average is Over by Tyler Cowen, an economics professor and in it he writes about the state of work now and in the future. He believes that due to a number of factors - greater efficiency, automation, technology - work will never be like it was before. Those who are proficient in technology, medical, energy and finance sectors will continue to excel. He predicts a lot of new human/machine jobs. Perhaps some of these WalMart workers should be training for those. Even automated processes still require humans to program, operate, maintain and repair them. Sadly, though, he thinks it won't be pretty for those at the bottom.
It's not pretty now for those at the bottom.
It's not pretty now for those at the bottom.
Is there some golden era in human history when it *was* pretty?
Is there some golden era in human history when it *was* pretty?
Documented? Unlikely. Worthy of moving towards? Absolutely.
I am reading a compressed history about the years up to 1500 AD. So many efforts have been made to reduce the number of homeless and poor over the years/centuries.
People have a right to make bad choices with tragic consequences. Add that to the numbers that are unfortunate to tragic happenings that no one planned or could avoid. Add to that a large number simply have no choice due to challenges from birth.
I admire the tenacity and efforts of those on SLF and elsewhere who have supported the provision of shelter and safety for the poor and homeless. I will confess that I simply make a very large donation as my contribution to a worthy support agency. In our small town we have full free dinners every Monday supplied by local churches, substantial free lunches (November to April) every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for those who lack sufficient supply of food, several clothing suppliers, a food bank but the need seems never-ending. Some people are unemployable especially now as the type of limited skill job has disappeared. Addiction is a huge problem.
Not sure what I am contributing to the discussion except to say that I don't believe that the problem can be solved too readily with an increase in pay scale. The low-skill jobs simply don't exist! Small employers cannot be expected to assume the responsibility of employing the homeless when their profit margins are already limited and it is small employers who drive the economy.
How to not be a gentrifying influence in a neighborhood of color...
http://www.alternet.org/culture/20-ways-not-be-gentrifier
iris lilies
3-4-14, 1:11am
to answer catherin'e question from the other thread, I would like to see far less of a concentration of homeless on the block were I work. Spread 'em around. Send some up to St. Chuck for dmc to take care of :)
ToomuchStuff
3-4-14, 5:30am
OK, what are your plans on solving the homeless problem. I remember driving through a part of town when I was a kid in the early 70's that had government housing. They were basically shacks, they dosed them down and built apt. buildings, in 5 years it was back to being a slum. People take better care of things when they have to earn it.
We have some fairly famous section 8 places like that, around here. Once they start going downhill, even those in need, are afraid to move into them, and they were set up to give a hand up. When crime takes over, all suffer.
Ok, let's go:
1. Your husband beat the shit out of you & your home is now unsafe for you & your kids? Here's your ticket to Detroit Happened locally (across the street), woman walked the block and a half, to the battered woman's shelter, and then came back to the guy, living in HER house (section 8 fraud, he wasn't to be living there), while the 3 and 5 year old were trying to start fires with people's mail, and breaking into houses for food. The kids were finally taken away, by a friend of the mothers who worked in social services and when she violated several laws, she was busted as well.
2. Your mental illness means you cannot hold a job, which means you have no access to care that might help you manage that illness? Blammo! Ticket to Detroit No access? Obamacare I thought is the law now?
3. Your parents hate Gay people, and you're a Gay 16 year old who just got beat up by her Dad? Off to DetroitTake the kid to a state where it is legal to leave someone at a hospital or firestation (fostercare is at least a chance).
4. Apartment building burned down? 20 tickets to Detroit. Friend (almost stepkid) had this happen a couple years back. He was at the girlfriends when the building burned, and they thought he had died in the fire. One of the few with renters insurance.
5. You're an Iraq Vet, and untreated PTSD has you seeing shooters in every doorway, so you can't stay inside? Detroit, my man! Let's move to a area that has a lot of arson for more trauma, etc.:devil:
6. You're under the age of 12, and your parent just lost her job? Better likes foraging in Detroit.
Next idea.
There are the many mentally ill, who need some sort of permanent housing solution.
Have to be careful removing peoples liberty. It has been done before and lead to things like euthanasia. A metal home is just a prison housing the prison that is holding the mind.
And here's what McD's counter workers look like in higher-wage/benefits parts of the world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dC6eDmpKN8
What part, and do they have cash area's (these look no different really then most cashierless checkouts except for the literacy part, but McDonalds instituted that some time ago, due to literacy and non English speaking workforces).
Minimum wages have been established for over a half century, and have changed multiple times since then, with each iteration generating doomsday warnings that don't bear fruit. We will likely see some of both, and over what stretch of time do you consider the data? The first week? Month? Quarter? Year? 3-5 years?
How also do we calculate the multiplier effect of higher wages going into the local economy? Will there be a balance of higher wages/diminution of jobs in the short run, then as the market adapts, more jobs? Will this drive area prices up?
Most important to me is establishing wages by law which reflect the values of people being able to pay for their basic livelihoods, and meet their basic needs. It will lessen the impact in the public sector over time, to be sure.
It will drive prices up (things like a dollar menu going away), and will hurt small businesses the worst. (cash reserves are normally used for price fluxing items, these will be the first thing tapped for the increases). But maybe what a basic livelihood is, should legally be established first (already an issue/right to pursue happiness). (this also will outline things like no smart phones and big screen tv's, etc) After that is established, then we can start to establish a legal minimum living wage (legalese, living wage, is not the same thing as a minimum wage. It is thought that people are supposed to be smart enough to establish what they need, and search accordingly).
I also wonder how anyone who has a diagnosed, untreated mental illness can be said to be "choosing" homelessness?
Since Obamacare, they are choosing not to be treated, or is Obamacare not a law?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/18/star_trek_economy_federation_is_only_mostly_post_s carcity.html
Since I have two Trekkies in my family, I can tell you how wrong that is, since they miss a VERY BASIC PREMISE. You have to JOIN Starfleet (and Sisko's dad, and Picard's brother didn't). It would be more like if the WORLD had an army and needed other occupations besides a soldier.
From the horse's mouth: I'm going to re-post what I posted in the Review forum of a book I read which was authored by someone who panhandled for several months in the 1990s:
"Will Work for Food or $" by Bruce Moody. A memoir of his few months as a begger on the freeway ramp. He was just shy of 60 years old, a college grad, and had been laid off. He went through his savings, and was trying to get temp jobs, but it wasn't working. He was eventually greatly helped by a generous woman who paid him $15/hr to do some work at her home, which enabled him to save $90 to post an ad in the paper as a handyman, gaving him steady jobs thereafter.
Was fascinating to read what was going through his mind as he stood there for hours every day, and the difference a few dollars can make to people who are destitute. "
Reminds me of a story from a sleigh ride. Someone came up and shook a friend of mines hand and thanked them for saving their life. They were going back to their room at the shelter and planning on killing themselves when they found the (amount) left for them. The one that they shook their hand, wasn't the one that placed it there, one of the other elves did.
How to not be a gentrifying influence in a neighborhood of color...
http://www.alternet.org/culture/20-ways-not-be-gentrifier"Many people think they can move into someone else’s neighborhood and start making it over as their own"
Right there it starts off wrong. For example: There is no national language, and we find it acceptable to let those who move into this country to speak their native tongue.
So the person above, is now a resident (it ISN'T someone else's neighborhood then) and you reverse bigotry and bias against them? Then in the next part it talks about ILLEGAL and expects them to just let it slide? Thought this was a "melting pot", which means both parts should blend and choose the BEST of both not the illegal or worst parts.
Is there some golden era in human history when it *was* pretty?
How about this place, where there is no "bottom."
http://xposethereal.com/motivational/no-war-no-money-no-problems-the-island-at-the-end-of-the-earth-where-life-is-good.html
Officially a New Zealand protectorate, Palmerston receives many of the modern amenities that we take for granted. Housing, power (for a couple of hours a day), the internet (for a couple of hours a day), even – for a lucky few – a mobile phone signal.
Yet the people of Palmerston have no shop, just two toilets, and rainwater is collected for drinking water. Money is only used to buy supplies from the outside world – not from each other.
“That’s one thing I’m so proud of with the families living on Palmerston – we work together, we love each other and we share,” says Bob.
“For instance, when I’m out of rice or flour I can just go next door and if they have – they give. I’m really happy people don’t sell things here. The supply ship hasn’t been for six months but we don’t cry over rice or steak, we just manage with our coconuts and our fish. But the day the freighter arrives it’s like Christmas Day,” he laughs.
(Actually, sounds a little like where you live, bae!)
ETA: Actually Denmark is not doing badly, in terms of overall happiness of its population and how it has worked systematically to reduce the homeless population there, which is about 1/10 of ours.
Detroit, I wear my Made In Detroit sticker proudly on my car. I ride my Detroit bike. Detroit is in my heart that it can climb out of the pit. I seldom drive the 94 route to the northern areas, but when I do the wasted beautiful old buildings is overwhelming. I used to say the same thing, all the homeless or those that could fix and have a home and there are those homes. Sorry but agree with others, that would not be the place to revitalize for homeless.
I hit the WDIV, WXYZ sites each morning and leave with them same feelings. There is good, but it is far over powered by the bad in The D.
Neat article, Redfox.
I agree!
Here is some information/suggestions from SHARE International (http://www.share-international.org/archives/homelessness/hl-mlaroof.htm)
European Union countries are considered to have among the most socially advanced housing policies in the world. Among developing nations, countries such as Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Indonesia, Senegal, Singapore, and Tunisia are praised for their efforts.....
Much of the progress comes at the local level. "The places where you see success stories are the places where there are very strong community organizations present, a very high degree of participation in the community, and where the government has acted as a facilitating rather than a repressive force," says Scott Leckie. "Most of the success stories are small-scale, community by community, neighborhood by neighborhood, but they get replicated in other places once people find out about them."
Biau agrees: "The ideal situation would be to have a strong municipality defining the city-wide policies, and for each squatter settlement or slum to have a few CBOs (community-based organizations) and NGOs [Non-Governmental Organizations] co-ordinating the implementation of these policies. I believe that the key partnerships in the future will be between local authorities and CBOs and NGOs, at the city level."
How to not be a gentrifying influence in a neighborhood of color...
http://www.alternet.org/culture/20-ways-not-be-gentrifier
Racist.
Since I have two Trekkies in my family, I can tell you how wrong that is, since they miss a VERY BASIC PREMISE. You have to JOIN Starfleet (and Sisko's dad, and Picard's brother didn't). It would be more like if the WORLD had an army and needed other occupations besides a soldier.
Who said we can't copy the ideas of our enlightened Starship Enterprise leaders? Some of those ideas remind me of B.F. Skinner's Walden II. I say, let's just erase the boundaries between nations, rename the world Starship Enterprise and all become members!
But I do think you bring up a great point about helping. I just finished a book based on Buddhist ideas, and one of the things the author talked about was the difference between "helping" and "serving." He says that helping can be a forgery of serving.
Service and its emanating quality, compassion, are innate responses when our heart is exposed to the needs of others. Helping, on the other hand, is what the mind feels it should do when it sees people who are deprived. The difference between serving and helping is that the former is not a deliberation; it is a response. Helping is based on sacrifice, not strength, and is associated with motive and labor. Its intention is to allow the person who is helping to feel better about the disparity between herself and the person helped. The helper's reward is the pity she feels for the disadvantaged and teh social outrage she feels for the injustices of life....
Service comes from the perception that we are not isolated beings, and the interactions we have through service come from the truth of our inseparability. The joy we feel as we serve is the joy of sharing within that truth and is the joy of our commonly shared aliveness."
I do think we need to discern between the helping that is a projection of our own egos, and an attitude of service, which is an egalitarian sharing and mutual appreciation. If our public servants are truly public "servants" they need to be humble, to listen, and to set an example of the kind of joyful community we can all participate in.
Racist.
I don't think racism is the only explanation, although it's certainly a part of it. I think it's really a "lowest common denominator" sort of thing. People who view others as perpetual victims seem to think it's cruel to expose those "victims" to alternative worlds since their 'soft bigotry of low expectations' mentality would rather see their inferiors remain on the plantation they know rather than allow them to aspire to something more, and possibly not succeed.
Yep, it OK to have a guy dealing drugs outside your door, he's just someone who has a felony on his record and trying to support a few kids. I'm sure he can get them in the business soon enough. And folks drinking and arguing at the park are just celebrating life.
How dare someone try and clean up the place. We should buss Iris lilies homeless to San Francisco and New York to help keep those neighborhoods in decline.
I don't think racism is the only explanation, although it's certainly a part of it. I think it's really a "lowest common denominator" sort of thing. People who view others as perpetual victims seem to think it's cruel to expose those "victims" to alternative worlds since their 'soft bigotry of low expectations' mentality would rather see their inferiors remain on the plantation they know rather than allow them to aspire to something more, and possibly not succeed.
When I moved into a rural county I learned very quickly that it was good manners to get to know folks for a few years before trying to bring my big city ideas into a functioning community. Then, after that few years, I learned that not only was it respectful and good manners, it was critical to understanding what relationships and systems were already in place that were not immediately obvious, and which served the community quite well, thank you very much.
Your comments seem to presume that communities of color & poor folk are inferiors, that they live at "the lowest common denominator", and that it's somehow racist to not expose them to "alternative worlds". That being polite and respectful is this mythical "soft bigotry of low expectations" thing. It's simply good manners, common courtesy, to build relationships with new neighbors for a bit before presuming your innovations are needed, welcomed, or an improvement. Get to know folks, understand what systems exist before presuming one knows best. Who the hell do I think I am, to have any kind of expectations of others when I am the newcomer?
I learned this in a white, rural, working class community that had it's share of second home rich folks, but that thrived as a farming & fishing community. After some years there, my desire to jump into community work was welcomed, because I took the time to weave myself into the existing community. That is what this article is about. Calling it racist is pure projection.
Yep, it OK to have a guy dealing drugs outside your door, he's just someone who has a felony on his record and trying to support a few kids. I'm sure he can get them in the business soon enough. And folks drinking and arguing at the park are just celebrating life.
How dare someone try and clean up the place. We should buss Iris lilies homeless to San Francisco and New York to help keep those neighborhoods in decline.
If someone is dealing drugs, which is usually a crime of survival and addiction, the most successful interventions are not bussing them somewhere else. The most successful interventions are treatment and jobs. It's pretty shocking how little empathy you seem to feel for your fellow human beings.
If someone is dealing drugs, which is usually a crime of survival and addiction, the most successful interventions are not bussing them somewhere else. The most successful interventions are treatment and jobs. It's pretty shocking how little empathy you seem to feel for your fellow human beings.
The above was from the article you posted. There was no mention of intervention, just that it was normal for the neighborhood. You shouldn't change it.
Its shocking some feel we shouldn't be changing the culture of the neighborhood.
How many generations do we house and feed and keep dependent on nanny government before we accept its not working. How many people are now on food stamps or other government aid. Why is it easier for some to live off the government than get a job? Why do we encourage single mothers to have children they can't afford in the first place by giving them more aid for additional kids? Why work when no one in your community does?
I remember the first time I went to East St. Louis. We had a job over there and I figured I'd check on it during the day when everyone was at work or school. I forgot everyday is Saturday in the Hood. Not the life I would want, but the guys hanging out outside the store and sitting on the porch seemed to be taking it easy.
The above was from the article you posted. There was no mention of intervention, just that it was normal for the neighborhood.
Its shocking some feel we shouldn't be changing the culture of the neighborhood.
If you want to change the culture of a neighborhood, simply have some patience for awhile before you jump in and presume that your way is best. Get to know folks, listen to their stories. It's hard, in a pluralistic society, to learn to get along with people one disagrees with. I've lived in a multicultural neighborhood for 13 years, in SE Seattle, and based upon my rural community experience, I took my time getting to know folks before jumping in to suggest some changes.
When I did decide to do some organizing, I teamed up with others, and together, we started a Community Kitchen. It took off and has thrived ever since. I know my neighbors, including the gang bangers. Because I've known them since they were very young, some toddlers, I know why they have chosen what I see is a very destructive path. However, they know I care about them as individuals.
There are a few now teens & young adults I don't invite in anymore, but I will hang out with them and talk about their lives when we see each other at the mailbox. One young woman came to me when she was raped, because she trusted me. She was 14, and couldn't tell her family. Because I did not judge her, she got some help when she trusted me enough to tell me about the assault.
The 21 year old who lives across the street can be scary, and his older brother tells me he has an illegal weapon under his bed. The older brother is a social worker, and is working on his brother to turn back on the gang life. I hope it works, because I've known this kid since he was 6; I used to cuddle him and read him stories in our back yard garden, feeding him strawberries. I know he remembers this too. I want him to find some hope in life, so that he turns around.
The city prosecuting attorneys and cops I know understand that legal intervention is the LAST resort, not the first. So I continue to care for him as an older woman on his block who he's known since he can remember, asking about how he's doing, and I even told him that I want to see him box when he feels like he's ready for it. He recently took up boxing, which is a sport I just abhor, but I think it's a good thing for him, and he was really pleased that I want to support him.
It's really worth it to take the time to get to know a place before presuming one knows better. I love my neighborhood, and I love that I am in relationship with neighbors who I see as whole people, not just poor, or thugs, or whatever your preferred racist stereotype is.
to answer catherin'e question from the other thread, I would like to see far less of a concentration of homeless on the block were I work. Spread 'em around. Send some up to St. Chuck for dmc to take care of :)
Your just trying to gentrify the place. You should embrace the atmosphere. The fights in the park are just the locals working things out amongst them selfs. Who are you to judge. :)
Your just trying to gentrify the place. You should embrace the atmosphere. The fights in the park are just the locals working things out amongst them selfs. Who are you to judge. :)
It's so much easier to mock and disrespect than to have a productive conversation, isn't it? How different are you from the dudes hanging out in the 'hood, that you judge?
How many generations do we house and feed and keep dependent on nanny government before we accept its not working.
Your assumption is that if we took away all the safety nets and government support all of a sudden sick people would get better, jobs would magically appear that would fit everyone's skill level and provide them with enough income to actually pay rent, and the mentally ill and addicts would all of a sudden get with it, and employers would happily hire them. In the case of the homeless, which is what we are discussing here, there are 10 times as many homeless in the US as there are in Denmark--and guess what... Denmark also is the most socially progressive, with many social programs that the citizens are fine paying for. They have different homeless programs for different situations and they ARE working. Our situation with the homeless is not working because there aren't enough people taking the time and investment to look at the big picture, examine the root causes, and come up with housing models that actually work. If the programs aren't working, why are you blaming the people?
It's really worth it to take the time to get to know a place before presuming one knows better. I love my neighborhood, and I love that I am in relationship with neighbors who I see as whole people, not just poor, or thugs, or whatever your preferred racist stereotype is.
Poor is an economic condition and a thug is a thug, has nothing to do with race. But everything is racist to some.
And if someone wants to change a neighborhood that they move into, that is their right. As long as they are not breaking any laws. The neighbor hood may change, maybe not.
It's so much easier to mock and disrespect than to have a productive conversation, isn't it? How different are you from the dudes hanging out in the 'hood, that you judge?
Did you read the article you posted? This is just normal behavior evidently. We shouldn't try and change it.
Your assumption is that if we took away all the safety nets and government support all of a sudden sick people would get better, jobs would magically appear that would fit everyone's skill level and provide them with enough income to actually pay rent, and the mentally ill and addicts would all of a sudden get with it, and employers would happily hire them. In the case of the homeless, which is what we are discussing here, there are 10 times as many homeless in the US as there are in Denmark--and guess what... Denmark also is the most socially progressive, with many social programs that the citizens are fine paying for. They have different homeless programs for different situations and they ARE working. Our situation with the homeless is not working because there aren't enough people taking the time and investment to look at the big picture, examine the root causes, and come up with housing models that actually work. If the programs aren't working, why are you blaming the people?
I'm not saying we should do away with all the safety nets. It just should not be a lifestyle. And some of the homeless probably should be put back into mental institutions.
I'm not saying we should do away with all the safety nets. It just should not be a lifestyle. And some of the homeless probably should be put back into mental institutions.
Yes, having safe & secure inpatient treatment facilities for mental illness treatment would be really helpful. (My sis works in this field, and her stories are pretty hard to hear.) The civil rights are important as it's not illegal to be mentally ill.
I have come to wonder what the word lifestyle means? What's the difference between 'lifestyle', and 'day-to-day living'?
It's so much easier to mock and disrespect than to have a productive conversation, isn't it? How different are you from the dudes hanging out in the 'hood, that you judge?
And you feel that the best thing for them is to keep them there. Give them enough that there is no reason to try and do better. Why work for $9.00 a hour with the hope to make more in the future when you can get more doing nothing. There are some that cant do better, but I actually believe most can.
Yep, I think Alan has it correct. Bigotry of low expectations.
I have come to wonder what the word lifestyle means? What's the difference between 'lifestyle', and 'day-to-day living'?
No difference, except some lifestyle's may be determined by society to be illegal.
And you feel that the best thing for them is to keep them there. Give them enough that there is no reason to try and do better. Why work for $9.00 a hour with the hope to make more in the future when you can get more doing nothing. There are some that cant do better, but I actually believe most can.
Yep, I think Alan has it correct. Bigotry of low expectations.
What I think is "best" for someone else is immaterial. I think that everyone, including poor folks and people of color are smart enough to make their own decisions about who they are and what they want out of life. It's very patronizing for me to have any kind of expectations, low, high, in between. Which is why this "bigotry of low expectations" thing is bogus.
What I think is "best" for someone else is immaterial. I think that everyone, including poor folks and people of color are smart enough to make their own decisions about who they are and what they want out of life. It's very patronizing for me to have any kind of expectations, low, high, in between. Which is why this "bigotry of low expectations" thing is bogus.
I'm curious, why do you bring up "people of color"? Do you have something against those that don't have color?
I'm curious, why do you bring up "people of color"? Do you have something against those that don't have color?
Nope!
It is interesting to note that LBJ's War on Poverty will be 50 years old this year. I will have to go back and read how/why it failed in order to understand why we seem to be moving in the opposite direction with each passing year.
Nope!
Ive just noticed you use that phrase from time to time. Do some see most things as race? I don't refer to Joe as Joe, a man of color. He's just Joe.
Ive just noticed you use that phrase from time to time. Do some see most things as race? I don't refer to Joe as Joe, a man of color. He's just Joe.
I absolutely see race; it's an important part of someone's identity, history, and culture, be they Scottish & Caucasian, Guatemalan American (my oldest daughter), Egyptian immigrant (my BIL), first generation Latino (my fav neighbors), etc. Race is a social construct deep with cultural, if not biological and scientific meaning. Ethnicity is culture. Anyone who claims to not see race is fooling themselves, or operating on the presumption that the only way to view people as equals is to not see a core part of their humanity.
I also see see gender, height, & age. These attributes add to my understanding of someone as I get to know them.
I absolutely see race; it's an important part of someone's identity, history, and culture, be they Scottish & Caucasian, Guatemalan American (my oldest daughter), Egyptian immigrant (my BIL), first generation Latino (my fav neighbors), etc. Race is a social construct deep with cultural, if not biological and scientific meaning. Ethnicity is culture. Anyone who claims to not see race is fooling themselves, or operating on the presumption that the only way to view people as equals is to not see a core part of their humanity.
I also see see gender, height, & age. These attributes add to my understanding of someone as I get to know them.
My son married a hispanic girl. They have a son. I would find it offensive if you judged him because he looks like his mom. I don't think there is any deep social construct within him. The only biological difference is his apperance, he does have blue eyes like me though. He acts no different from my other grandson and I expect no less from him.
I absolutely see race; it's an important part of someone's identity, history, and culture, be they Scottish & Caucasian, Guatemalan American (my oldest daughter), Egyptian immigrant (my BIL), first generation Latino (my fav neighbors), etc. Race is a social construct deep with cultural, if not biological and scientific meaning. Ethnicity is culture. Anyone who claims to not see race is fooling themselves, or operating on the presumption that the only way to view people as equals is to not see a core part of their humanity.
I also see see gender, height, & age. These attributes add to my understanding of someone as I get to know them.
Didn't Archie Bunker feel the same way?
Didn't Archie Bunker feel the same way?
I don't know; did he?
My son married a hispanic girl. They have a son. I would find it offensive if you judged him because he looks like his mom. I don't think there is any deep social construct within him. The only biological difference is his apperance, he does have blue eyes like me though. He acts no different from my other grandson and I expect no less from him.
It's interesting that you interpreted my seeing race as judging. Why is that, do you think? Do you actually not know which of your friends and neighbors are of a different race than you?
And, why do you use the phrase "I expect no less from him", as if having a Latina mother and he being a mixed race kid means he would been seen as "less"?
It's interesting that you interpreted my seeing race as judging. Why is that, do you think? Do you actually not know which of your friends and neighbors are of a different race than you?
And, why do you use the phrase "I expect no less from him", as if having a Latina mother and he being a mixed race kid means he would been seen as "less"?
It goes back to the article of gentrification. And that is part of "people of color's" culture. I do think that drug dealers, prostitutes, and drunks in the park are not things to aspire to. And I'm sorry but I do think less of them.
I don't know; did he?
Its been years since I saw the show, that was back in the 70's I think. I'm sure he was considered a bigot for judging people for their identity, history, and culture.
I see we are sending a billion to the Ukraine. I wonder who will actually end up with that money.
It goes back to the article of gentrification. And that is part of "people of color's" culture. I do think that drug dealers, prostitutes, and drunks in the park are not things to aspire to. And I'm sorry but I do think less of them.
I'm sorry, I'm confused. What is part of people of color's cultures? And yes, no one aspires to a life of law breaking. Rather than thinking that they are less than you, what if you had some curiosity about their story, and wonder why a person would be in that park, selling drugs?
Its been years since I saw the show, that was back in the 70's I think. I'm sure he was considered a bigot for judging people for their identity, history, and culture.
Yes; judging people. Very different from seeing their whole selves, which includes color, race, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc.
Yes; judging people. Very different from seeing their whole selves, which includes color, race, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc.
Isn't that in itself judging them? Arnt you bringing your preconceived opinions with you from their race or color.
I'll admit how someone looks matter. A young person dressed in nice pants and a dress shirt gives a different outward appearance as someone with their pants hanging down and their cap on backwards. Black or White.
What about those poor soles of non color. Who will hire them? Why should they be discriminated against for the non color of their skin. And especially males since they are also discriminated against in hiring. The non color need affirmative action also!!!
20 Ways Not to Be a Gentrifier came across to me as highly bigoted. Not that all the ideas were bad, far from it. There were simply far too many assumptions (read: stereotypes) for me to stomach.
"Recognize most of the perpetrators of crime have also been the victims of a system you have most likely benefitted from disproportionately."
Have I now? Are you sure?
Remember low-income communities and communities of color may be suffering from hundreds of years of historic trauma, and this trauma is very fresh in the minds of most people of color.
This belief is, in my experience, promoted by those looking for restitution for evil acts perpetrated against someone who may or may not have been their great-great-great-great-grandparents. No one denies the deeds were done or that they were wrong in every way or that people suffered. But "hundreds of years of historic trauma"? Phlea. Such statements are every bit as damning and damaging as hatred from the opposite end, maybe more so. There is no more effective means of holding back a population than to make them all into victims of a crime that was committed so far in the past that none of the perpetrators can ever be brought to justice. At least a people can rally against hate speech. Perpetuating the victim myth does nothing more than justify a lack of action. If you want to help a person or a neighborhood or a generation why not instill the belief that great things are possible rather than starting with the assumption that there's nothing you can do about it because the deck is stacked against you? The only trauma that should be fresh in anyone's mind is the near total absence of opportunity creation for ANY color of person who wants it. The collective culture I live in can't cure anything thanks to the twin poverties of imagination and fortitude among those we hoped would help. Time for a new approach.
I also find the phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" amusing, because it's only ever applied to individuals.
When it comes to corporations or hedge fund managers asking for a handout, no one says "No, because helping you would prevent you from being able to raise your expectations if you just did it yourself!"
Come on, banksters, you don't need government bailouts, just try harder! We know you can do it!!
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-14, 9:14pm
"Recognize most of the perpetrators of crime have also been the victims of a system you have most likely benefitted from disproportionately." Have I now? Are you sure?
Well it was talking about gentrifiers who probably have some wealth to buy in an up and coming neighborhood (some money to even rent there if the place is becoming hot - but more so to buy). Yea a person probably benefits disproportionately for being white all other things held constant, but it doesn't mean they are going around scheming about how to keep minorities down. One may benefit really through no fault of their own.
And all other things never are constant, noone thinks some poor white Walmart worker is disproportionately benefitting from the system (simple income stats will disprove it!) but neither are they going around gentrifying anywhere probably.
This belief is, in my experience, promoted by those looking for restitution for evil acts perpetrated against someone who may or may not have been their great-great-great-great-grandparents. No one denies the deeds were done or that they were wrong in every way or that people suffered. But "hundreds of years of historic trauma"? Phlea. Such statements are every bit as damning and damaging as hatred from the opposite end, maybe more so. There is no more effective means of holding back a population than to make them all into victims of a crime that was committed so far in the past that none of the perpetrators can ever be brought to justice
you probably can trace a certain amount back that far. There's probably inherited wealth that goes back to slavery, no this doesn't apply if you come from poverty (although maybe if you still inherit property?) or more recent immigrants. I don't think it applies to MOST people (of any race) frankly. But I do wonder to what extent it exists. That's the direct benefit. But more recently there's definitely inherited wealth from say much more recent times of segregation. There's other inherited advantages as well - your parents went to college, your grandparents went to college etc.. That's an advantage. And there's current society where you still probably face less discrimination all other things held constant. I tend to reject the strict dichotomy between understanding causual factors, and taking action in the now (to improve your situation etc.). But it's also worth asking how much the current situation even provides much in the way of openings for constructive action.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-14, 9:16pm
I also find the phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" amusing, because it's only ever applied to individuals.
When it comes to corporations or hedge fund managers asking for a handout, no one says "No, because helping you would prevent you from being able to raise your expectations if you just did it yourself!"
Come on, banksters, you don't need government bailouts, just try harder! We know you can do it!!
the phrase used to describe that is: moral hazard. If the banksters get bailed for stupid decisions, they'll do it again (and I'm quite sure they will).
How about this place, where there is no "bottom."
http://xposethereal.com/motivational/no-war-no-money-no-problems-the-island-at-the-end-of-the-earth-where-life-is-good.html
So exactly spot on its crazy catherine! There is no more effective way to deal with inequality than to render it moot. Who cares about income inequality if there is no real need for income? What difference would it make if you had a billion dollars but lived in a place where no one had any need for dollars? Oh sure, the US probably wouldn't work that well if the whole place tried to live like these islanders. Probably.
iris lilies
3-4-14, 9:43pm
The article about gentrification is preachy. I just laugh at these things. When we moved into our house I can assure you that any poor person would not have lived here and would have been marching on the local Housing Authority with news cameras trained on them, protesting the abuse heaped on them for even suggesting that they move into this house.
Yeah, tell me how to gentrify.
the phrase used to describe that is: moral hazard. If the banksters get bailed for stupid decisions, they'll do it again (and I'm quite sure they will).
Oh, I think it's already a given. The banks that were "too big to fail" are actually as big or bigger than in 2008, and the risky casino-like behavior continues. Do Americans have the stomach to rescue them again, or are we going to have to watch the fabric of our economy tear even further?
Don't know, but I guess it's easier to complain about cell phone subsidies for poor people.
iris lilies
3-4-14, 10:03pm
There is no homeless "solution" but carry on planning it, it makes no difference to me, and good luck with that Detroit option.
What I think would be an interesting exercise on this thread is to list positive things that the homeless provide to the community. Everyone in society is a part of the social fabric. Everyone is not a "taker" without being a "giver" in some aspect.
Here are some things I've observed that the homeless provide as a positive:
* a few have dogs, and these are likely dogs that would not have care if it were not for that homeless person--probably they are keeping that dog from being euthanized for some months
* they provide eyes and ears on the street which can act as a crime deterrent. (It is true that unfortunately the homeless in large numbers end up creating crime. But let's pretend the large groups do not exist.)
* They provide a way to recycle clothes, blankets, shoes
*They fulfill the mission of the religious organizations that are required to witness and bring souls to Jesus
* They act as a cautionary tale for younguns
* They provide a way for people who like to help other people fulfill their social helping mission
*They provide wisecracks and humor as entertainment out on the street
Perhaps I'll think of more, but right now the only additional ones I can think of are facetious.
OK, what are your plans on solving the homeless problem. I remember driving through a part of town when I was a kid in the early 70's that had government housing. They were basically shacks, they dosed them down and built apt. buildings, in 5 years it was back to being a slum. People take better care of things when they have to earn it.
Why don't we send them to Detroit? There are plenty of abandoned or cheap homes that the government probably already owns. We can give them some tools and materials to fix the places up themself's and they can farm the vacant lots. Some can do other things to help contribute to the community. It could be a Socialist's utopia.
Some could maybe even drive the buses to transport them there.
Well, sorry to say, many homeless choose the lifestyle.
Well, sorry to say, many homeless choose the lifestyle.
Excuse me?? What the heck does that even mean?
Excuse me?? What the heck does that even mean?
Redfox....what do you think it means?
Redfox....what do you think it means?
What I think it means is you're a [fill in fav adjective] with zero understanding of people who are living miserable, desperate, shortened lives, and that you lack compassion. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
flowerseverywhere
3-5-14, 12:30am
What I think it means is you're an ignorant dolt with zero understanding of people who are living miserable, desperate, shortened lives, and that you lack compassion. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Where I live there are thousands of homeless who live in the local forest. They don't want government interfering in their lives. Some are veterans. There has been a huge campaign here to give the kids backpacks, school supplies, clothing and food. To give the adults food, clothing, and blankets. There are two pastors who live among them who have spent 20+ years working with this population. I am not an ignorant dolt, but I do believe there are some people who want to live outside societies norms. Some are mentally ill. Some are anti social. Some are conditioned not to trust the establishment. I was talking just the other day with someone who has spent time trying to help this population, and her viewpoints were so interesting to me. She was walking the walk and invited me to come with her on her journey of helping these folks. I think I will take her up on it but I can't presume that my expectations are their expectations.
What I think it means is you're an ignorant dolt with zero understanding of people who are living miserable, desperate, shortened lives, and that you lack compassion. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Well, Redfox, I don't think I lack compassion, and I don't think I am ignorant. You see, when I was in my early 20's I was homeless. With two very young children.Under the age of 5. I worked I didn't any assistance. But I had no home. I lived in a campground. I had to move every two weeks because the campgrounds don't let you stay more than that. I was homeless for about a year. In that time I was IN the homeless community. I lived with the homeless community. I knew homeless people. I was one of the homeless . We ate together, lived next to each other. Helped each other. (or ripped each other off, or hurt each other. Not me, but it happened.) Everyone around me was homeless. The homeless were my community. And most of them were by choice. Not the other homeless families. They were not wanting to be homeless. But there was a huge community that was. In fact they would talk about hitching the next ride or jumping the next train to the next town down the line that had the better soup kitchen, or that they were in this town because the homeless mission was giving away sleeping bags and they had heard about it and that's why they were there. It was a choice. A lot of drug addicts, alcoholic veterans. One even admitted to me he had a PHD in philosophy. He just dropped out. They had food stamps. They went to the missions and food kitchens and free clinics.
Now my kids are grown, and I work for a social agency that works with low income families. What I see is that the families who are homeless are never on the street. They may live in a car or in a campground, or couch surf, but they are not on the streets hanging out. Where I live there is a small mom and pop market about a football field away from the mission. In the morning when the mission turns them out, they go line up at the little store and wait for it to open and spend their food stamps and ask for spare change from the customers. Or, there's a huge contingent that lives on the local bike path in the bushes. You don't step off the bike path in my area, because you'll walk into a camp. Nothing's changed from 30 years ago, really. It's their choice to live this lifestyle to a large degree. Some are mentally ill, or have other issue, alcoholism and drug addiction not being the least, and those are huge challenges and the agencies struggle to help them.
The title of this post was about getting homeless people off the street. My take on that was the actual street homeless, not homeless in a general sense. I think I'm pretty accurate.
I could understand how you might feel that I am ignorant with zero understanding, but it's not true.
Actually, Redfox, I think your response shows that you care. That's a good thing.
Even though, for a moderator, calling me an ignorant dolt might not be along the forum guidlines.:D
Actually, Redfox, I think your response shows that you care. That's a good thing.
Even though, for a moderator, calling me an ignorant dolt might not be along the forum guidlines.:D
I remembered that you had recounted a time in your life when you were living in a campground and therefore do have some personal insight into homelessness, but I'm thinking redfox did not remember your story. Regardless of your insight into the homeless situation, and even if you were "ignorant" of all facts, it's not ok to label you a dolt.
Actually, Redfox, I think your response shows that you care. That's a good thing. Even though, for a moderator, calling me an ignorant dolt might not be along the forum guidlines.:D
Well, it was definitely with the hopes being disabused of that notion! Thank you for your response. How do you think rural homelessness differs from urban homelessness?
Well, it was definitely with the hopes being disabused of that notion! Thank you for your response. How do you think rural homelessness differs from urban homelessness?
Well, I don't think you see the street homeless in rural areas. In fact I think they move into urban areas. But there are rural homeless. They usually want to be more off the grid. But that doesn't mean they don't use the system to support their lifestyle. They could be just more anti social or mentally ill, or any number of things. They may go to the city for a while or a day to get what they need.
flowerseverywhere
3-5-14, 6:53am
Here are some articles about the rural poor that private clubs and churches are trying to help near me. If you Google Ocala forest homeless you can find lots of,articles of people ( government and private) that are trying to help. I am perplexed why so much effort has gone towards helping this population and the problem has not seemed to lessened.
http://www.helpagency.net/About-Us.html
http://www.ocala.com/article/20120126/ARTICLES/120129722?p=1&tc=pg
tiam, I am glad you saw your way out. I believe that your observations are accurate having worked my life as a nurse.
Everyone, this may be a good time to review our terms of service, which we all agreed to at the time of our initial registration. The TOS can be found here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_tos
With particular attention to this part:
Each poster is expected to treat every other poster with respect at all times. We all have to agree to disagree at times, this is true of any human relationship, but we can disagree without being disagreeable. Name calling and other ill-willed behavior will earn you a warning from the Moderator of the Forum. If you receive such a note or see a warning post, please work with the Moderator to understand the issue involved and don't do it again.
Everyone, this may be a good time to review our terms of service, which we all agreed to at the time of our initial registration. The TOS can be found here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_tos
With particular attention to this part:
Crap, I was going to start calling people "ignorant dolts" every time they don't agree with me.
I was waiting for "Jane, you ignorant slut," personally...
iris lilies
3-5-14, 12:21pm
I was waiting for "Jane, you ignorant slut," personally...
haha, made me laugh out loud!
I was waiting for "Jane, you ignorant slut," personally...
I was actually thinking of that. Some may not be old enough to remember that.
You were thinking "Jane, you ignorant slut?" Caught red-handed!
You were thinking "Jane, you ignorant slut?" Caught red-handed!
Well not you. :|( At least yet.:)
haha, made me laugh out loud!
Me, too!
Actually, Redfox, I think your response shows that you care. That's a good thing.
Even though, for a moderator, calling me an ignorant dolt might not be along the forum guidlines.:D
you're right; it is not! My apologies.
PS- I'm glad I'm wrong.
Crap, I was going to start calling people "ignorant dolts" every time they don't agree with me.
Hell no, that's MY phrase, and I doltishly refuse to share.
rodeosweetheart
3-6-14, 12:20am
This summer, the second day we were up here to our new house, in our new community, we went to KMart to buy an air mattress to sleep on, and walked down to Big Lots to buy a pan to make tea in. Walking out of Big Lots, a homeless man lying in the dark about ten feet over yelled at me , "you f**ing b***". I am a 58 year old woman who doesn't run very fast due to COPD. Needless to say, it turned me off my new home. My husband was with me, so I wasn't terrified, but had he not been, I probably would have gotten in the car and driven back to South Carolina. But I tend to be afraid of homeless, drunken men who are street homeless, since I was attacked by one in Chicago as a young woman.
I don't see this as the same social problem as Tiam trying to care for her children and lacking a home for them. And yes, everyone, not just children, needs a home.
I really am one of the most harmless people I know. So I don't think it's reasonable to expect a great deal of emoting and feeling sympathy for homeless street people when so many times, malice or actual threat seems to be coming from the other party in my direction, for no reason.
And I don't think it's reasonable to say people are ignorant if their experiences differ from yours, or when they see someone in the street, they are wary, due to their own experiences.
you're right; it is not! My apologies.
PS- I'm glad I'm wrong.
No problem. Like I said, I think you were just showing that you actually care. And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
No problem. Like I said, I think you were just showing that you actually care. And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
Tiam, it is admirable how calmly and kindly you have reacted to being called an ignorant dolt.... I was gobsmacked myself when I read it! Good on you!
ApatheticNoMore
3-6-14, 1:53am
Walking out of Big Lots, a homeless man lying in the dark about ten feet over yelled at me , "you f**ing b***".
mentally ill. :\
But I tend to be afraid of homeless, drunken men who are street homeless, since I was attacked by one in Chicago as a young woman.
I really am one of the most harmless people I know. So I don't think it's reasonable to expect a great deal of emoting and feeling sympathy for homeless street people when so many times, malice or actual threat seems to be coming from the other party in my direction, for no reason.
I see a lot of homeless, I usually don't interact actually. They are very little threat IMO. When I found a homeless person sleeping in the apartment laundry room, I caught myself apologizing to them - I'm sorry - well I was afterall interrupting their sleep! :)
I don't think one has some kind of duty or moral responsibility to interact with the homeless (because contrary to anything suggested in these threads it's actually not a problem that can be solved individually - though it may indeed be charitable to interact with them, since many could probably use a "hi") but the generalization about homeless is surely shakey. Think about the other generalizations one could form from being attacked.
And I don't think it's reasonable to say people are ignorant if their experiences differ from yours, or when they see someone in the street, they are wary, due to their own experiences.
not for being wary.
I wouldn't tend to believe most homeless are there by choice, but some, maybe. just as surely as some people don't see the harm in crime (and really how is selling drugs really any worse than working for Phillip Morris when you get right down to it? Many legit jobs are actually at least as if not more immoral than crime. Although they do run less risk of arrest!). Really truly, although it runs the world, not everyone subscribes to bourgeoisie value systems, some have worse value systems and some much better ones. If you met a homeless person and they claimed to be voluntarily homeless would you believe them or just think they have to rationalize being on the very bottom of societies totem pole because the alternative is to admit failure in this societies eyes. Even a wage slave thinks more of you if you say you did it for the freedom.
Ignorant dolt is a personal attack.
Everyone, this may be a good time to review our terms of service, which we all agreed to at the time of our initial registration. The TOS can be found here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_tos
With particular attention to this part:
Each poster is expected to treat every other poster with respect at all times. We all have to agree to disagree at times, this is true of any human relationship, but we can disagree without being disagreeable. Name calling and other ill-willed behavior will earn you a warning from the Moderator of the Forum. If you receive such a note or see a warning post, please work with the Moderator to understand the issue involved and don't do it again.
Thank you for posting that reminder Alan.
flowerseverywhere
3-7-14, 8:53am
Maybe it is time to review the moderator policy as well. I did not find the verbal abuse funny at all.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.