Article: How to Stick With Minimalism During the Holiday Shopping Season

Worth a read! http://money.usnews.com/money/the-fr...hopping-season

I'm going out on a curmudgeonly limb here to say that I'm tired of these articles that promote togetherness for the holidays, conveniently overlooking the fact that soooo many people have family halfway across the country, and traveling to them for Christmas would be the ultimate nightmare. Of Course I'd be together with family if that were the easy solution to a frugal and stuff-reduced Christmas!

At least in this family of two, the big issue is the distance. We can't be there, so we send stuff. If we were there, we'd have other options that might still meet expectations for celebrating, but like hundreds of millions of other people, we aren't. We do our best to give experiences and keep the spending down, but enough already with the Kumbaya Solution.

... climbs off soap box, scratches behind, wanders offstage.

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Originally Posted by kib

I'm going out on a curmudgeonly limb here to say that I'm tired of these articles that promote togetherness for the holidays, conveniently overlooking the fact that soooo many people have family halfway across the country, and traveling to them for Christmas would be the ultimate nightmare. Of Course I'd be together with family if that were the easy solution to a frugal and stuff-reduced Christmas!

At least in this family of two, the big issue is the distance. We can't be there, so we send stuff. If we were there, we'd have other options that might still meet expectations for celebrating, but like hundreds of millions of other people, we aren't. We do our best to give experiences and keep the spending down, but enough already with the Kumbaya Solution.

... climbs off soap box, scratches behind, wanders offstage.

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This made me lol. I am sorry though, to hear you are so far from your loved ones.

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Originally Posted by kib

At least in this family of two, the big issue is the distance. We can't be there, so we send stuff. If we were there, we'd have other options that might still meet expectations for celebrating, but like hundreds of millions of other people, we aren't. We do our best to give experiences and keep the spending down, but enough already with the Kumbaya Solution.

... climbs off soap box, scratches behind, wanders offstage.

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Haha, yeah. If I was closer to my family it might not be too Kumbaya ya know. I send things and they send things and it is lovely, and there is very little chance we will get into the murky waters that are family political and personal differences.

I like to buy myself something I actually want, buy friends things that I hope they want, and enjoy good food and companionship this time of year. I doubt anyone I know would want a hypothetical goat or a zip-lining "adventure."

If it's a choice between a Fitbit and a hypothetical goat, I'll take the goat, thanks. I enjoy the in-person celebrating, but it's not possible with distant family (truth be told, as Zoe points out it might not be possible if they lived next door, there's more than one kind of "distance" going on with this issue, but it's even less likely with them 3000 miles away). My grouse came about because this is the third or fourth article I've read that seems to have a smug attitude promoting a simplistic solution to a multifacted issue.

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Originally Posted by kib

If it's a choice between a Fitbit and a hypothetical goat, I'll take the goat, thanks. I enjoy the in-person celebrating, but it's not possible with distant family (truth be told, as Zoe points out it might not be possible if they lived next door, but it's even less likely with them 3000 miles away). My grouse came about because this is the third or fourth article I've read that seems to have a smug attitude promoting a simplistic solution to a multifacted issue.

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A smug attitude seems to come with the territory of simple living (and most other elitist lifestyle choices). I tend to avoid these kinds of patronizing articles as a matter of course and just soldier on with my life.

"Philanthropic gifting can serve as a gateway to help family and friends understand minimalism..." Oh, please.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

A smug attitude seems to come with the territory of simple living (and most other elitist lifestyle choices). I tend to avoid these kinds of patronizing articles as a matter of course and just soldier on with my life.

"Philanthropic gifting can serve as a gateway to help family and friends understand minimalism..." Oh, please.

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Can you expand?

I don't think simple living is elitist at all. Simple living is a "meta-lifestyle."

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Can you expand?

I don't think simple living is elitist at all. Simple living is a "meta-lifestyle."

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Simple living, in itself, is not elitist. Poor people practice it all the time without making a fetish of it. It's the middle class version of it that rankles, complete with the usual judging and finding fault with people who aren't sufficiently on board.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Simple living, in itself, is not elitist. Poor people practice it all the time without making a fetish of it. It's the middle class version of it that rankles, complete with the usual judging and finding fault with people who aren't sufficiently on board.

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Make a fetish of it how?

. . . going overboard with minimalism when you don't have to by financial necessity can be every bit as obsessive and idealistic as being a hoarder. I'm not sure if that's what Jane means, but I've been considering that idea as I careen through life between obsessive "gathering" and obsessive purging, making a religion out of whichever one fits my compulsion of the moment. Sometimes I think being unconcerned about it would be a lot easier and more natural than being so focused on stuff / anti-stuff.

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Originally Posted by kib

. . . going overboard with minimalism when you don't have to by financial necessity can be every bit as obsessive and fetishistic as being a hoarder.

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But what does this look like? Describe it.

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Originally Posted by kib

. . . going overboard with minimalism when you don't have to by financial necessity can be every bit as obsessive and fetishistic as being a hoarder. I'm not sure if that's what Jane means, but I've been considering that idea as I careen through life between obsessive "gathering" and obsessive purging, making a religion out of whichever one fits my compulsion of the moment. Sometimes I think being unconcerned about it would be a lot easier and more natural than being so focused on stuff / anti-stuff.

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There's nothing wrong with gathering and then purging.

I do that as my life interests change.

It drives DH crazy, he gets anxious thinking of all of the stuff that I get rid of after having it for a while. He is a borderline hoarder. I am not. I see things as serving me, I don't serve them. I am master, they are slave. Only the truly old things give me pause when I am jettisoning stuff and I try to keep them out of the landfill. I am haunted by two iron pans I pitched some years ago. And then DH reminded me last week that we did find, in the roach ridden hoard of crap in the last tiny house we bought, a cast iron dutch oven exactly like the one I now covet. I am sad that it went into a dumpster, but at the time I just wasn't prepared to scrub layers of rust and debris from it.

I am still haunted by the deco vanity dresser I left sitting in the alley. I didn't put it there, but neither did I remove it. Sure it was missing a center drawer, but a fix for that can be adapted. So I guess I can see how some hoarders ascribe personality to stuff. For me, a piece of furniture with personality (by definition, nothing made after 1980 unless it is high end stuff) gives me pause when passing it in the alley.
NOw, we have a great outlet for that sort of thing, an annual sale we can donate to.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Simple living, in itself, is not elitist. Poor people practice it all the time without making a fetish of it. It's the middle class version of it that rankles, complete with the usual judging and finding fault with people who aren't sufficiently on board.

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+100

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Can you expand?

I don't think simple living is elitist at all. Simple living is a "meta-lifestyle."

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I had an awesome philosophy professor in college, and this was back during the early 70s hippie days--she definitely leaned in that direction (In my mind, proof of that was in her unshaven armpits). But even so, she used to take off on John Lennon's line, "Imagine no possessions. It's easy if you're rich."

So, yes, there can be smugness in waving the simple living/minimalist flag. My MIL was a model simple liver but that was just how she lived--she didn't wear it like a brand.

I have an idea most self declared 21st century minimalists are not minimalists at all, in fact the evidence is they are probably hoarding more things than they are getting rid of. They are probably making life more complicated than before by digitally hoarding. Show me a minimalist without an iPad or a computer and I will show you a true minimalist. All others are merely imposters or hypocrits.

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Originally Posted by catherine

I had an awesome philosophy professor in college, and this was back during the early 70s hippie days--she definitely leaned in that direction (In my mind, proof of that was in her unshaven armpits). But even so, she used to take off on John Lennon's line, "Imagine no possessions. It's easy if you're rich."

So, yes, there can be smugness in waving the simple living/minimalist flag. My MIL was a model simple liver but that was just how she lived--she didn't wear it like a brand.

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I prefer the original lyric:

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

But I am not a fan of John Lennon's music really, or that of The Beatles. I am more a Wings guy, myself.

Give me an example of two of people who wear simple living as a brand.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

I have an idea most self declared 21st century minimalists are not minimalists at all, in fact the evidence is they are probably hoarding more things than they are getting rid of. They are probably making life more complicated than before by digitally hoarding. Show me a minimalist without an iPad or a computer and I will show you a true minimalist. All others are merely imposters or hypocrits.

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I have a laptop, but no cell/smart phone -- just a homephone. Am I still in the impostor camp? Am I a hypocrite? haha

Digital hoarding is a real problem for some people. I have been strategic about avoiding it, but I just dislike clutter so that has not been a challenge. I am also a luddite, so that helps.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I prefer the original lyric:

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

But I am not a fan of John Lennon's music really, or that of The Beatles. I am more a Wings guy, myself.

Give me an example of two of people who wear simple living as a brand.

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Her point was this: here was John Lennon sitting in his penthouse having a Bed-In, driving around in his Rolls Royce telling people that utopia is no possessions… try telling that to people who have nothing.

Now, I LOVE John Lennon, and right now, I'm looking at a badge on my "inspiration wall" that says "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." But that's not the point.

I can't point to any 2 people in particular offhand, although I can safely say that the two "The Minimalists" authors have branded themselves with the lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Her point was this: here was John Lennon sitting in his penthouse having a Bed-In, driving around in his Rolls Royce telling people that utopia is no possessions… try telling that to people who have nothing.

Now, I LOVE John Lennon, and right now, I'm looking at a badge on my "inspiration wall" that says "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." But that's not the point.

I can't point to any 2 people in particular offhand, although I can safely say that the two "The Minimalists" authors have branded themselves with the lifestyle.

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Do you think Millburn and Nicodemous are frauds?

So I'm curious...is Mr Money Mustache an elitist in the way that is being discussed here?

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Originally Posted by pinkytoe

So I'm curious...is Mr Money Mustache an elitist in the way that is being discussed here?

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Excellent question!

I thank the heavens my family is not much into holiday gifting I guess. It sounds awful. So does flying, and with more carbon impact.

Who were we talking about again? The middle class or the rich? I don't think those are the same OR that I much like the people in either group :~). Humanity lived for much of it's existence with very few possessions. Though not in this culture where certain possessions can become necessities for life (like if the way to get income is to have a job, and the way to have a job is to have a cell phone or computer (I simply would have to quit if I gave those up) then ....). For some people (at least pizza delivery people right?) a car is a similar necessity.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I have a laptop, but no cell/smart phone -- just a homephone. Am I still in the impostor camp? Am I a hypocrite? haha

Digital hoarding is a real problem for some people. I have been strategic about avoiding it, but I just dislike clutter so that has not been a challenge. I am also a luddite, so that helps.

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well, if you are posting on a minimalist website with an iPad or a computer and you call your self a minimalist, that would be like living in a small cottage and keeping a 50,000 square foot warehouse full of stuff and calling yourself a minimalist. You are a fraud. The mind is part of the minimalism, isn't it? Put your computer away for a week and see how that goes for you. You like experiments in minimalism.....how about it? Instead of posting for a month.....play a game of chess with another person via snail mail. That would be minimalistic. Are we really sure what minimalism means?

This discussion is exploding in ten directions! :0!

1. I do think that people can become obsessed with downsizing to the point where it may be as stressful and dysfunctional as hoarding. Fetishistic / consumed by this focus.

2. This is not necessarily elitist, it has nothing to do with elitism, it has to do with a psychological state somewhat like anorexia. If less is better, then even less is better than that, and in fact nothing at all is the ideal ... a sense of shame and unhappiness over having six pairs of socks is no healthier than a sense of shame and unhappiness over having sixty pairs of socks, or six ounces of fat on your body.

3. Promoting the Joys Of Minimalism can be smug or elitist, in one of two ways: when it's being touted as the be-all-end-all of good behavior, and when it's being touted by people who have the money to rent or replace their fancy things as the drop of a hat. It's fine to have lots of money and few possessions, it's not appropriate to say this is a reasonable reality for everyone.

4. IMO MMM is neither minimal or especially frugal Or elitist, he's made a science of how to accumulate money and use it very mindfully to obtain the life he believes in, and he makes no bones of exploring the process involved in getting where he is.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

well, if you are posting on a minimalist website with an iPad or a computer and you call your self a minimalist, that would be like living in a small cottage and keeping a 50,000 square foot warehouse full of stuff and calling yourself a minimalist. You are a fraud. The mind is part of the minimalism, isn't it? Put your computer away for a week and see how that goes for you. You like experiments in minimalism.....how about it? Instead of posting for a month.....play a game of chess with another person via snail mail. That would be minimalistic. Are we really sure what minimalism means?

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I "unplug" about one day each week, usually on Sundays. Not always though, sometimes I will skip a week and double-up the next week.

I don't own any eBooks. I don't have an MP3 player. I don't have iTunes.

I have a laptop, a lamp, an alarm clock, a car, a little tuner for my ukulele (which I intend to learn as one of my 2016 resolutions), and I think that might be all my electronics.

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Originally Posted by kib

This discussion is exploding in ten directions! :0!

1. I do think that people can become obsessed with downsizing to the point where it may be as stressful and dysfunctional as hoarding. Fetishistic / consumed by this focus.

2. This is not necessarily elitist, it has nothing to do with elitism, it has to do with a psychological state somewhat like anorexia. If less is better, then even less is better than that, and in fact nothing at all is the ideal ... that's not healthy.

3. Promoting the Joys Of Minimalism can be smug or elitist, in one of two ways: when it's being touted as the be-all-end-all of good behavior, and when it's being touted by people who have the money to rent or replace their fancy things as the drop of a hat. It's fine to have lots of money and few possessions, it's not appropriate to say everyone else could and should.

4. IMO MMM is neither minimal or especially frugal Or elitist, he's made a science of how to accumulate money and use it very mindfully to obtain the life he believes in, and he makes no bones of exploring the process involved in getting where he is.

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Regarding points 1 and 2: How can someone be consumed by downsizing if they don't have much of anything left but the things they need? I could probably get rid of half the 150 things I have and still be okay. But it would mean I would not do as much fishing, for instance.

Regarding point 3: I think living simply is one of the "be-all-end-alls" of good behavior. I think it has massive social and personal and financial benefits. I don't think that is elitist any more than saying "People should eat a 5 servings of fresh veggies a day!"

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Originally Posted by pinkytoe

So I'm curious...is Mr Money Mustache an elitist in the way that is being discussed here?

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I don't see how MMM has ever claimed to be a minimalist. He's all about living mindfully. If that means owing a fair number of expensive tools to do his carpentry work (which I imagine he does have) that would kick him out of the minimalist club immediately, wouldn't it?

I define minimalism in a very pedestrian way: not a lot of stuff. I define simplicity as not a lot of complication or clutter - stuff, processes, media input, fussiness.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I don't see how MMM has ever claimed to be a minimalist. He's all about living mindfully. If that means owing a fair number of expensive tools to do his carpentry work (which I imagine he does have) that would kick him out of the minimalist club immediately, wouldn't it?

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I don't think that is how minimalism works.

Does my fishing gear kick me out of the club? Rod and reel, tackle box, cooler, canoe, paddles, anchor, PFD, minnow bucket, filet knife, skinning pliers, etc.

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Originally Posted by kib

I define minimalism in a very pedestrian way: not a lot of stuff. I define simplicity as not a lot of complication or clutter - stuff, processes, media input, fussiness.

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I can mostly dig this!

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I don't think that is how minimalism works.

Does my fishing gear kick me out of the club? Rod and reel, tackle box, cooler, canoe, paddles, anchor, PFD, minnow bucket, filet knife, skinning pliers, etc.

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I don't really know what kicks people out of the club.

But your fishing gear, as you've told us, is low end and non-tech and few in number for your all consuming hobby. I deem you still a solid member of the minimalist club.

MMM doesn't CARE about being in the club, I think that's an important point.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I deem you still a solid member of the minimalist club.

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Thank you, ma'am! :)

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Regarding points 1 and 2: How can someone be consumed by downsizing if they don't have much of anything left but the things they need? I could probably get rid of half the 150 things I have and still be okay. But it would mean I would not do as much fishing, for instance.

Regarding point 3: I think living simply is one of the "be-all-end-alls" of good behavior. I think it has massive social and personal and financial benefits. I don't think that is elitist any more than saying "People should eat a 5 servings of fresh veggies a day!"

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If you are spending your days consumed with the idea of how you can cut your 150 things down to 125, and the 150 things fit in the space you have to put them and cause you no distress other than the fact that they exist in your world, my opinion is that you are obsessed in a way that is not rational. If you are at peace with your 150 things, then you're not obsessed, and minimalism is simply a way of life, not a disease.

There is a difference is between living simply (which I do agree is a good way to live), and telling everyone else that 1. they should, 2. it is easy, and 3. a minimalist (like the author of the article, presumably) is a better person because they live this lifestyle they wish to apply to everyone else. That is proselytizing.

Electronics/electricity use...hmm... I have an 8-yr-old MacBook (my brother gave it to me; it was "refurbished" when he bought it); a Samsung (3?) smart phone; 9 lamps (this apartment has no ceiling lights); a microwave oven, a hair dryer, and an electric hand mixer. That is my total of electricity consuming... oops! wait! the washers and dryers in the apartment complex laundry room. I'm just not into electronics, I guess, lol!

I think I've mentioned before that I've spent extended periods of time motorhoming around the country, in a 15 year old Class A motorhome that we rebuilt. We were almost always off-grid, hardly ever used hook-ups, so we were very careful with our electricity and water. After the first 3 month trip, we had been home a couple of months, when my partner commented that there must have been something wrong with our electricity bill, it was less than half of what is "should be" i.e. what we had been using prior to our trip. Truth is, we brought our conservative ways home with us! All these years later, I'm still there.

ETA: I do put myself in the camp of "unreasonably obsessed". I probably have 50 pairs of socks. They fit just fine in the drawer, and I have no trouble finding the socks I want to wear. Still, I look at that drawer and feel anxious, annoyed, disappointed with myself, dissatisfied with my life. I need six pairs of socks. Must declutter, must declutter ... it's idiocy. It's socks, for crying out loud. But my anxiety about wanting to get rid of them reminds me of some of the things Chicken Lady has said about her anxiety about Keeping things.

Then fast-reverse to yesterday, when I spent the morning up to the elbow in the workings of my toilet, trying to get rid of a scale build-up. After a while that was an end in itself, it was so satisfying to "gather" chunks of calcium. I could get completely overboard with fishing or berrying, wanting to obtain every last bit available. This isn't normal, IMO, it's the flip side of the minimizing coin.

I totally agree with "take what you need and leave the rest" ... except for this reptilian part of my brain that says no, go to extremes!!

I think it was about ten years ago, I declared an un-Christmas in our house. Trying to explain it to my co-workers at the time was not an easy task.

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Originally Posted by kib

If you are spending your days consumed with the idea of how you can cut your 150 things down to 125, and the 150 things fit in the space you have to put them and cause you no distress other than the fact that they exist in your world, my opinion is that you are obsessed in a way that is not rational. If you are at peace with your 150 things, then you're not obsessed, and minimalism is simply a way of life, not a disease.

There is a difference is between living simply (which I do agree is a good way to live), and telling everyone else that 1. they should, 2. it is easy, and 3. a minimalist (like the author of the article, presumably) is a better person because they live this lifestyle they wish to apply to everyone else. That is proselytizing.

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I don't feel obsessed about minimizing. Though it was fun when I was in the midst of it, but some parts were challenging too. Now, in April and May I feel obsessed with fishing! haha

I am kind of okay with telling people they should live simply. Though I don't think it actually works. But hey, people tell me to eat my veggies. It works sometimes. I let people say what they will. I am a grown up and can handle being offended. hahaha

I think the ease with which someone can live simply/minimally varies by person (their natural affinity for stuff, there friends or family, their culture, etc.). I have noticed it is by comparison very, very easy for me to be a minimalist. I am not entirely sure why.

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Originally Posted by mschrisgo2

I think I've mentioned before that I've spent extended periods of time motorhoming around the country, in a 15 year old Class A motorhome that we rebuilt. We were almost always off-grid, hardly ever used hook-ups, so we were very careful with our electricity and water. After the first 3 month trip, we had been home a couple of months, when my partner commented that there must have been something wrong with our electricity bill, it was less than half of what is "should be" i.e. what we had been using prior to our trip. Truth is, we brought our conservative ways home with us! All these years later, I'm still there.

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So cool! :)

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Originally Posted by kib

ETA: I do put myself in the camp of "unreasonably obsessed". I probably have 50 pairs of socks. They fit just fine in the drawer, and I have no trouble finding the socks I want to wear. Still, I look at that drawer and feel anxious, annoyed, disappointed with myself, dissatisfied with my life. I need six pairs of socks, why do I have 50 and which ones should I get rid of and and and ... it's idiocy. It's socks, for crying out loud.

Then fast-reverse to yesterday, when I spent the morning up to the elbow in the workings of my toilet, trying to get rid of a scale build-up. After a while that was an end in itself, it was so satisfying to "gather" chunks of calcium. I could get completely overboard with fishing or berrying, wanting to obtain every last bit available. This isn't normal, IMO, it's the flip side of the minimizing coin.

I totally agree with "take what you need and leave the rest" ... except for this reptilian part of my brain that says no, go to extremes!!

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There is a little voice in my head when I go fishing. It tells me after a certain number of fish (usually less than the legal limit): "Okay, amigo. You've got enough. Paddle on home."

But sit me down at an Indian buffet and that voice is nowhere to be found! lol

So I quit buffets 7 or 8 months ago.