The slow fade?

This past weekend my mom and dad came to visit. My dad and I, along with my BIL, were going trout fishing at a nearby lake.

It started off all well and good -- we grilled some burgers (mine was lamb), enjoyed a lunch, talked fishing a little bit, and then packed up the gear.

That is where things took a turn for the infuriating.

As soon as me, my dad, and BIL piled into my hatchback my dad says: "Anybody else packing?"

I said: "Uh...no, we're going to a metro park. I am not even sure you can bring guns there."


He went on a tirade about the law of preemption of some such. Then as I am driving to the lake my dad pulls the gun out and hands it off to my BIL and says: "It is loaded and ready to go!"

I just thought: "I am driving here. I could get fender bended and there could be a negligent discharge! What the hell!?"

Then he went on a rant about gun rights. And then a rant about how great Scalia was.

Then he told me how I needed to rent an apartment with a garage so I can store all my stuff in there, like my canoe, fishing gear, and all that.

Then I specifically got ice to put the fish on (the most humane way to dispatch the fish). Yet when my BIL catches one my dad puts it on a stringer.

He also went on a rant about how without religion people cannot be ethical or charitable. WTF?!

It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.

So I am asking myself: Is that enough? Or should I just do the slow-fade?

You know -- don't call, don't visit, when he and my mom come down to visit I can just have some other obligation.

My mom is not as bad, she is fairly liberal, but she is mentally ill and very materialistic. Again, would I choose to be around her at all if she was not my bio-mom? Probably not.

I kept wondering: Am I part of some cosmic mistake? Why am I here on this planet with these parents? haha

Thoughts on the slow fade?

On guns.....go buy one, get a conceal carry permit, and sign up for a gun safety course. You then pretend to be interested and you get your dad to go with you to the gun safety course because it is obvious, he needs it. You might be saving someone's life.....including yours. The opposite of the slow fade. You only get one dad.

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It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.

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I have pondered this all my life - why the universe pairs us up with the parents who bring us here. All I have deduced is that we are here to learn from them.

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Originally Posted by pinkytoe

I have pondered this all my life - why the universe pairs us up with the parents who bring us here. All I have deduced is that we are here to learn from them.

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I think you spelled that word wrong. It is not l-e-a-r-n. It is r-u-n! haha

I have two hunting implements that I don't use, except for sporting clays.

I don't want anymore. I don't want to take that class for a CCW. I certainly don't want to pretend I am into that kind of thing, it would be creating a monster I'd have to continually feed.

So my question still lingers on: Why, despite only having one dad, would I want to be around him if he is really not the kind of person I want to be around?

Agreed though, that he needs a major refresher on that safety class!!

This reminds me of a talk I heard by a Buddhist teacher that helped me (although my family has improved quite a bit, it is hard to raise parents). He was on a retreat and fairly new to all of this, the teacher of the retreat was actually his father who was a major Buddhist teacher. The father said as part of the talk 'does anyone feel like they were born into the right family?'. It is a pretty universal feeling.

As far as backing off, that can be a balance of compassion and discernment. If you can feel more compassion for your family, and heck feel safer not being around people who are stupid with guns, then space can be a really good thing. Plus taking care of yourself, self compassion is really important with family stuff.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I have two hunting implements that I don't use, except for sporting clays.

I don't want anymore. I don't want to take that class for a CCW. I certainly don't want to pretend I am into that kind of thing, it would be creating a monster I'd have to continually feed.

So my question still lingers on: Why, despite only having one dad, would I want to be around him if he is really not the kind of person I want to be around?

Agreed though, that he needs a major refresher on that safety class!!

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There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you. He didn't walk away from you, he tried to understand your needs. It is possibly time to pay it back? Maybe?

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you.

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He brought this on himself by choice.

Why would I owe him?

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you. He didn't walk away from you, he tried to understand your needs.

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Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.

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I did not ask to be born.

So why is he entitled to me taking care of him? That does not add up.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I did not ask to be born.

So why is he entitled to me taking care of him? That does not add up.

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Sometimes we get too caught up in our own wants, wishes and desires to see the good in those close to us. It's true of both fathers and sons.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Sometimes we get too caught up in our own wants, wishes and desires to see the good in those close to us. It's true of both fathers and sons.

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Could be true.

For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.

I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.

Ultraliteangler, sometimes I think about your future and I feel sad. You haven't mentioned your gf lately, so I don't know what's up with that, but I see you moving out away from the only family you feel connected to and focusing on divesting yourself of people and items. I look down a road where you age, retire, divest yourself of your car, stop attending your groups because it is too much trouble, your dog is gone, and one day the super investigates an odor and finds your remains in a tiny room with a hotplate, a spoon, a pot, a can opener, a mattress with one sheet, a toothbrush and a change of clothes. Nobody claims the body.

Why would you not try to have positive interactions with your dad? Why would you not reach out and drink life from a fire hose? Your "spiritual tradition" says that this is all there is. And yet, you seem intent on rejecting even this. On working your way doggedly toward nothingness. Are you seeing someone about depression?

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

That is where things took a turn for the infuriating.
It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.
So I am asking myself: Is that enough? Or should I just do the slow-fade?
You know -- don't call, don't visit, when he and my mom come down to visit I can just have some other obligation.
My mom is not as bad, she is fairly liberal, but she is mentally ill and very materialistic. Again, would I choose to be around her at all if she was not my bio-mom? Probably not.
I kept wondering: Am I part of some cosmic mistake? Why am I here on this planet with these parents? haha

Thoughts on the slow fade?

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Originally Posted by Alan

Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Turns out I am a "very dominant and critical personality." haha

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You sound like him, maybe that is the cosmic joke.
I do agree with Alan, that we are getting a biased opinion here.

I come from a family that there was slow fade, as well as fast burnout (disowning). What happens with your sibling when you disown your parents? For one, they get stuck in the middle, no matter how they feel about it.
I can remember my grandfather speaking to a sibling for the first time in 40 years, at a family members wedding. I didn't understand why, until the horrible phone call from another relative (I didn't know existed), on their deathbed. I have also had some of the family talk about seeking out relatives that disappeared. You might have a reason to disavow yourself, but realize they could seek you out later, either for forgiveness or spite.

I've got some family that the last time I saw, I was a child. There are some real, safety considerations in that case. So there are some reasons family's do fall apart. Because you don't like their belief's, however, itself is damaging. DAMHIKT

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.

I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.

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You and I are very different men, LDAHL. More power to you on your path.

I am definitely in the camp of NOT severing ties for all the reasons stated. At the same time, I can see how those triggers (excuse the pun) probably got set off.. you feel strongly about one thing and your dad feels strongly about the opposite. You are more cautious about carrying guns, and your dad somehow perceived that as threatening. You are more concerned about treating the fish humanely than your dad, which he might have also seen as a threat.

In my relationships with people who drink, I can put myself in your shoes. Using alcohol as an analogy for guns, if I don't feel they should be drinking, but they're passing around the alcohol, I've learned to "change what I can" and accept the rest. I try not to judge them or label them or confront them with my beliefs. At the same time, if I don't like being around them when they're drinking, I cordially excuse myself. I wouldn't dream of cutting them out of my life, though. At least not at this point.

ETA: This is what I TRY to do.. God knows I rarely hit the bullseye with regard to patience and compassion, but I keep trying..

I remember having serious disagreements with my MIL on race, but again, I can't change her, and I certainly didn't find her sometimes racist views to be grounds for cutting her out of my life (not that I could have anyway).

I can understand your frustration, but I think dealing with differences is part of the territory of family relationships.

I am wondering about the actual dynamic here. Did your BIL keep quiet, because he was expecting you, as the closest relative and the driver (in charge), to pipe up and set the safety rules? I would expect the driver to enforce the seat belts rule, then why not enforce the "don't brandish a loaded weapon while I'm driving rule"? Nobody challenged your dad and maybe he's assuming you're both fine with him brandishing a loaded weapon around. Maybe he's not even thinking about an accidental discharge during a fender bender.
Yes, it is going to be an unpleasant conversation. But, it takes a village. Otherwise, you end up with some kind of a tragic outcome and everybody is wondering "why didn't anybody do anything about it earlier?" I am generalizing here. My family had to have the same type of conversations with my FIL. It was his kids that had them and he got ticked off at them. But he never repeated the dangerous behavior. YMMV

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Originally Posted by catherine

I can understand your frustration, but I think dealing with differences is part of the territory of family relationships.

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Catherine, you said it so much better than me.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

You and I are very different men, LDAHL. More power to you on your path.

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It's probably true that I've had a long run of undeserved good luck, and have little understanding of what others may be up against. If that's the case here, I apologize if I came across as judgmental.

First, let me say thanks for caring and that these are excellent questions. :)

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Ultraliteangler, sometimes I think about your future and I feel sad.

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Please don't. Feel sad for me if I get cancer of the everything or if I accidentally start a family or two or if I ever have to move back to Phoenix. haha

But don't feel sad about the current trajectory of my life. haha

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

You haven't mentioned your gf lately, so I don't know what's up with that...

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It seems as though we have split. It happened a couple weeks ago. We have remained on good terms though, and it has all been very polite thus far. A very "adult" break-up, I suppose. She is a good woman.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

...I see you moving out away from the only family you feel connected to and focusing on divesting yourself of people and items. I look down a road where you age, retire, divest yourself of your car, stop attending your groups because it is too much trouble, your dog is gone, and one day the super investigates an odor and finds your remains in a tiny room with a hotplate, a spoon, a pot, a can opener, a mattress with one sheet, a toothbrush and a change of clothes. Nobody claims the body.

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1. Do I feel that connected to them? haha
2. I do divest from many items, but that is not so bothersome. I don't need many things. After all, they are just things.
3. I divest from some people, that is true. I do this when the costs outweigh the benefits.
4. I will never be able to retire. haha! Now I know you're just razzing me!
5. I would like to divest of my car some day. I don't like driving or paying all the fuel costs and such.
6. It is highly unlikely I will stop attending my community groups. I am very involved in the atheist community and I intend to get more involved -- in many ways it is the light of my life. And I am probably facilitating another voluntary simplicity class this spring. I am thinking of doing one or two a year in perpetuity.
7. When my dog is gone I will probably be very, very sad for a few months. I will get over it though, unless he is lost or suffers a horrible death. But if he can die peacefully in a vet's office after eating a large slice of pizza and vanilla ice cream, then I will be okay with Harlan passing. I don't fear his death; I fear his suffering.
8. We're all stardust. When I pass away, regardless of how it happens or who claims or does not claim the body, then I will still be stardust.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Why would you not try to have positive interactions with your dad?

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I have! Why do you think I nag him about going fishing with me? Saturday when he came down we revealed his DNA ethnicity results. We grilled burgers and got side-dishes he likes, etc.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Why would you not reach out and drink life from a fire hose?

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I am not that thirsty.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Your "spiritual tradition" says that this is all there is. And yet, you seem intent on rejecting even this. On working your way doggedly toward nothingness.

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Not true! I cry foul here. I go fishing; I went Fri, Sat, and twice on Sun! While I was out there I showed some kids what wax worms were and how to fish trout because they were not catching anything. I spent an hour fishing with some Russian guy and talking about the differences of fishing trout and crappie. I exchanged pleasantries with perhaps 50 other anglers and had a long talk with a ranger about muskie. I also went to a potluck with my voluntary simplicity crew; we told lots of jokes and funny stories; we had some heartfelt discussions; we ate yummy food; the host showed us some Tai Chi. I played fetch with Harlan in the back yard.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Are you seeing someone about depression?

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Kinda...?

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

He brought this on himself by choice.

Why would I owe him?

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Choice? Why would assume that?

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

It's probably true that I've had a long run of undeserved good luck, and have little understanding of what others may be up against. If that's the case here, I apologize if I came across as judgmental.

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Not at all. I was merely acknowledging differences. I do not begrudge you your good luck. I hope you stay lucky!

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Choice? Why would assume that?

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He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He chose to create me.

Well, I feel a little better. All your posts I run across seem to be "thinking about getting rid of..." Never "how I had a great weekend with just a fishing pole, some food and a dog."

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Not at all. I was merely acknowledging differences. I do not begrudge you your good luck. I hope you stay lucky!

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Who was it who said "Luck only lasts a lifetime if you die young"?

Hope it works out for you.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth....

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He choice to create me.

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Perhaps the root of the problem lies nearby.

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Originally Posted by Chicken lady

Well, I feel a little better. All your posts I run across seem to be "thinking about getting rid of..." Never "how I had a great weekend with just a fishing pole, some food and a dog."

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Good. And for what it is worth, I have "met" people online. And then in real life...

They almost always say: "I pictured you being so much more severe and morose." LOL

Others have said they thought I lived a "self-deprived life" until we hang out. LOL

I am like: "You call lounging around the lake all weekend deprived?!"


I am not that bad off. I just have a very troublesome set of parents. I am workshopping ideas to deal with them. haha

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Originally Posted by bae

How sharper than a serpent's tooth....

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Explain.

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Originally Posted by bae

How sharper than a serpent's tooth....

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Is that from King Lear?

You don't have to stay in relationships that lack mutual respect. I have distanced myself from people that act in ways that your dad acted. Some of those are related to me.

I haven't ever formally cut off anyone. I have retreated and only have contact when necessary. No one has noticed enough to ask me about it as I am polite when I see them. But I never seek them out.

Life is so much better this way.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Perhaps the root of the problem lies nearby.

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Do tell.

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Originally Posted by Tammy

You don't have to stay in relationships that lack mutual respect. I have distanced myself from people that act in ways that your dad acted. Some of those are related to me.

I haven't ever formally cut off anyone. I have retreated and only have contact when necessary. No one has noticed enough to ask me about it as I am polite when I see them. But I never seek them out.

Life is so much better this way.

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This is more along the lines what I was thinking.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Do tell.

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I can't find it for you, only you can. When your dad was planning you, do you think he planned to have an atheist minimalist fisherman? Did you ever see "On Golden Pond".

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

I can't find it for you, only you can. When your dad was planning you, do you think he planned to have an atheist minimalist fisherman? Did you ever see "On Golden Pond".

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I have not seen that movie, though I think I will rent it. I like Jane Fonda!

My dad did not plan to have an atheist and/or minimalist son; he is fine with the angler part mostly.

I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.

Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.

So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice.

You could also just take a break from the 'rents, x months after which you planned to see them again (you don't have to tell them). Ok if they were obviously on their death bed I personally wouldn't do this needless to say, but otherwise.

I think the practical answer it to limit your exposure a bit but just accept them as they are. All you can ever change is your perspective. We have spent a lifetime "knowing" DH's parents. Their love always feels conditional as in...we will give you money and presents if you show up for every holiday, etc. We expect for you to take care of us now that we are old. DH has a lot of issues with all that I will never understand. My parents died when I was 35 so I have detached from all that stuff emotionally. He says he will be glad when his are gone and that he intensely dislikes them. Apron string syndrome I think. They influenced a lot of control when he needed to be independent and the resentment stuck. I told him once how sad to think as a parent though, that I spent 20 years raising them and they really didn't have any kind words for my effort.

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Originally Posted by CathyA

I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.

Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.

So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice.

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You are a bad ass.