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I see that the government will restart collection of student loans today. The internet is full of cranks offering crank strategies to refuse paying, from claiming DOGE scrutiny violates their loan contracts to convoluted bankruptcy tactics. Others announce they will simply defy collection on a “they can’t get us all” basis.
I expect we will be seeing a rash of heartrending news stories about the suffering of the poor souls unfairly burdened with obligations they freely undertook.
Dave Ramsey has been counseling his listeners for the past several years to just continue and pay off your student loans. Take advantage of whatever forgiveness program there seems to be, but assume the government willscrew youchange policy. Nanny G giveth and Nanny G taketh away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
The only way I believe they should not have to pay back is if the degree is not worth the paper it is printed on … such as from trump university, et al.
Our state legislature will be voting on a measure that would require a semester of "financial literacy education" for high school graduation. Possibly a step in the right direction for preventing something similar in the future.
Do you have a state lottery, "that helps fund education"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
I have to admit, I've often wondered where all that lottery money goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
They use it to fund education, making ads that make people believe it will be in addition to the school budgets.
Instead the money goes back in the general fund, and this replaces that so no budget increase. Then when they bring things in like online gambling, they go back to advertising it as more money for schools.
I paid off my undergraduate student loans, of ~$32k, by the time I was 28. The other half of my fees at the time were covered by generous scholarships from the university.
I just last week paid off my daughter's undergraduate student loans, from the same institution, of ~$240k, by the time she was 28. I paid about $50k also for her Masters program at Cambridge, and her Ph.D. program there was totally grant-funded by some British Bond villain who is trying to rehabilitate his image. On her salary as a research fellow there, it would have taken her many more decades to pay off the undergraduate and masters loans on her own.
We both knew what we were signing up for.
I have little sympathy for students who sign up for massive loans for degrees that they will not be able to pay for somehow. My degree was in math/science/engineering, and there was a reasonable chance I could pay off my loans once I graduated. I did the math before signing for my own loans.
My daughter's program of study was unlikely to yield a high-paying job capable of ever paying off the investment. $250k undergrad + $50k masters + probably $200k for the Ph.D. if she had not gotten the grant would be a total investment of $500k plus the opportunity cost of all those years of schooling. Her salary as a research fellow at Cambridge is roughly £65k, plus room and board, travel expenses, research expenses and equipment, and a parking place in downtown Cambridge (which is priceless). She'd never have managed without generational wealth and grants. The grant she got was for highly promising scholars in endangered fields of study - in her case, Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Celtic studies. There are only 2-3 institutions on Earth where she can find a tenured position to sustain her once her grant expires. She's made the final cut for job interviews at one of them next week.
She'll basically spend her life in lovely university housing, being paid enough to afford coffee and snacks, and provided her main meals at dining halls that look right out of Hogwarts.
Here's the front door to her current flat:
https://i.imgur.com/pQ6HCvz.jpg
Kid my grandmother referred to as her fourth grandkid (families have been friends for 3 generations), had never worked a day in his life (first mistake), graduated around 30-32, with a degree in comic books (uhm, really?). Found a school where he is teaching a semester in comic book mythology and he hopes to turn that into a tenured position. (unless he is able to convince Disney theme parks to start a Marvel U, I don't think what he thinks is going to happen, is anywhere close to what is going to happen)
I hate to say it, but I don't think he has the maturity level, to get a job asking if you would like fries with that order.
I am old and do not remember all of these student loans I was going to college. Did people of my age, 70, actually get loans back then? I know that no one had credit cards. Our lives were pretty much pay as you go.
That's what I remember. Everyone I knew had help from parents and/or worked. I think the cost of education was relatively much less back then?Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
My 4 years of college including room and board at a second tier state school was $30K. Class of 91. I worked a lot and parents helped a ton.
I remember my 4 years at a liberal Catholic college was $4k a year--16k for four years.
My fairly affluent grandfather had offered all of his grandchildren money for health and education, as needed. That was it. No use asking him for a new car. That pledge became an inheritance, but according to the terms of the trust we still couldn't get our share with no strings attached until we were 30 years old. I always thought that was very wise. I think he knew that it takes a full decade at least to truly "adult"--and I think he was trying to stave off the possibility that we would squander his hard-earned cash with the frivolous impulses of youth. DH and I wound up using the rest of my inheritance for the down payment on our first home.
that’s what family trusts typically pay for, education costs and real estate down payments.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
My mother sold an inherited farm to pay for my brother’s college expenses at a 4 year private school.
That could be said of many degrees or institutions. I like some of the proposals that would hold universities responsible for at least a portion of non performing loans.Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
Lacking family money, I paid for a BS, MS and MBA with seven years of military service. We can’t all get launched into life on Daddy’s dime, but millions of people manage to acquire an education with no more debt than the average car loan.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
It would be called nanny stuff but it seems like basic financial education or mentoring for high school students should be offered in public schools. So many kids come from families who don't seem to have money sense at all.
I graduated in 1970 with an NDEA loan of $5000 dollars as an Elem. Kdg. Teacher. My first job paid $6900 a year. I worked in a Title one school so my loan payments were deferred for a few years with NO INTEREST, and each year I worked for the title one school they reduced the principal by a percentage, so in the end I paid back $1500. I'd also had 2 years of a full scholarship from the PSEA (Penn State Education Association) I think. Until my parents moved out of state so my last two years were full out of state tuition.I worked while in college for $1.25 an hour- my spending money and my parents covered the rest. I was very lucky and ended up having a great career and now retired. On the other hand, my nephew at 55 has still not paid back his loans or grants for his degrees. Therefore his transcript is blocked and he has not worked "on the books" since. He's lucky to have a sister who helps support him...and her boyfriend who hires him and pays with cash.
As someone who has funded similar investments in my childrens' educations (x3!), I am wondering if I missed an opportunity. Why borrow first? I am allergic to paperwork so just paid cash from day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
And love the English university architecture. We only did a short stint at Oxford and the Hogwarts vibe was great! But if same institution then that was Princeton, yes? Not like that's an eyesore or anything to start!
Princeton had a great parent loan program for < 4%, and I typically make 8% on my boring investments, so it seemed like a solid deal to just take their money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
It was funny when I visited Cambridge and realized that several of the Princeton Gothic-style buildings weren't just modeled after Cambridge buildings, they were direct copies.Quote:
And love the English university architecture. We only did a short stint at Oxford and the Hogwarts vibe was great! But if same institution then that was Princeton, yes? Not like that's an eyesore or anything to start!
The Princeton campus is beautiful. I don't miss a lot about New Jersey, but I miss being so close to Princeton and being able to take advantage of what it offers the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
I did my first year at Bunker Hill Community College, and it cost $300/year. I then transferred to University Of Massachusetts in Boston, which cost $1000/yr. I was able to pay my tuition in full working part-time during the school year and full-time during summer and school breaks. The fact that my parents continued to otherwise support me and let me live under their roof had everything to do with making this possible. I commuted to and from school on public transportation. I was working at my megacorp employer, which is where I ended up working for my entire career. They were great about letting me flex my work schedule around my school schedule. I was a good employee, which I'm sure had a lot to do with their willingness to accommodate me. I do recall fellow students waiting for their loan or grant payments to come through so they could go to FL for spring break. I always worked full-time during my breaks.
That's awesome. For you guys, like you and LDAHL and others here who have bootstrapped their way through college, I'm wondering what the expectations were. IOW, did your parents tell you early that you were on your own? Did you sense that the family did not have the means to support you, or that they felt that it was something that you should do for yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by rosarugosa
Maybe that's the problem with the Generation That Expects Everything. Maybe the parents set them up to believe they would be taken care of. In my case, I simply knew that my parents couldn't afford to send me to college, but I did know all through high school that my grandfather would be providing a college education to me.
As a result, as a parent, I felt it was my duty to do the same for my kids. I didn't fully calculate the cost to my future. Two of my sons went rosa's route: community college and transfer to the State university. It worked out great for them. their Masters degree was on their own dime. One son took out a loan, and the other son worked at Rutgers during the day and then headed up to Newark at night for law school, paying for it with tuition remission. I don't know how he did it.
My DD chose a private liberal arts school, and I took on her loans until she got married and then my SIL paid them off for her. It never occurred to me to tell her she needed to go a cheaper route, because I had the gift of being able to go wherever I wanted.
So I'd love to hear from y'all what your overt or implied messages from your parents were about your education.
I didn't go to college until my kids were in middle school, and then I mostly part timed it, while working full time. Got a few grants and scholarships, and several small loans that were forgiven due to my working environment (I taught incarcerated juveniles). I was 38 when I got my BS, and 46, I think, when I got my Masters. Got all my gen-eds done at the local community college. Parents paying for college was never seen as an option, mostly because my older siblings (I came 13 yrs after my Dsis, my DB was 15) had no college money provided. My parents were more about doing the same for all than looking at what could be afforded at the time. We weren't able to help our kids much w/ college other than providing shelter/food/transport. Oldest has an arts degree, is very underemployed, but no loans to pay. Second has many semesters of school, no degree, huge loans, and significant mental health issues that were exacerbated during their away from home years. They are currently stable and in a decent paying job they don't hate, so yay for that, I am guardedly optimistic. I do feel that if we had been able to cover educational expenses, both would be in a better position today, but that's conjecture, so I try not to beat myself up about it too much.
My parents said directly and clearly: don’t expect an “inheritance” because we are paying for your education.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
As it turned out tho my mom did leave my brother and I a nice little chunk of change, $60,000 each, so that was good but not expected.
I was the smart one so my education was paid for. My mother would have gone to college if family finances allowed it. They didn’t and she had to go to work the day after high school graduation. Receptionist at a doctor’s office.
In my case, there was no question because there was no money beyond the occasional care package or little gift. Asking for anything more would have amounted to cruelty on my part. So I went through the not unusual path at that time. Lawn work, paper route, burger flipping, factory work. We (at least in my neighborhood) didn’t have the snowflake sense of entitlement so often seen now. That’s just how things were. Running out on your debts would have been thought shameful, no matter what the rational. I suppose the result of that experience was that I became a somewhat more self-reliant and resilient person than I would have been otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
For my kid, I help where I can but not to the point of encouraging them to feel they’re entitled to anything they want as a matter of right.
What I learned with money from my family was do what I say, not what I do.
We had an allowance, that mom borrowed, and we never saw. Told I could do something like mow lawns, after I bought a mower (couldn't start with dads), and not allowed to compete with neighbor kid.
Want money, don't eat, save your lunch money (which I did for three weeks straight to buy the Return of the Jedi book and pay for me and my friend who was worse off, to go see it).
And from Grandma, you don't buy things you can't afford. So I tried to join the military to get away from both family and to be able to pay for school, and was declared 4F, while told I would go to jail if I didn't still sign up for the draft. Taught me I was going to grow up between a rock and a hard place.
I was the first generation of my family to go to college.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
I went to a fancy boarding school for my last 3 years of high school. I entered a competition for a full-ride academic scholarship to the place and won. (Today that school is $75k/year!). This saved me from attending high school in San Diego at the horrid high school parodied in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High".
My parents divorced while I was in high school, and made it clear they would not be able to provide much, if any, financial support for college. My father was especially sad about this, as when he was young, he had been admitted to college, but his own father refused to co-sign on a student loan, so he never had the opportunity, and went into the military instead.
My parents provided me a lot of social/class support - reinforcing the value of education, encouraging me to explore all resources, and creating in me the expectation that somehow it would work out.
I applied to Princeton for several reasons: 1) they had the best physics and statistics programs on Earth, 2) they had good financial aid packages available for students from less-advantaged families, 3) the college admissions counselor at my boarding school had previously been Princeton's director of admissions and walked me through the applications process for admission and for financial aid.
I got a sizeable financial aid package, a combination of student loans, some outright grants, and a work-study program. My initial work-study job was working in the college dining hall dishing out food to the rich kids and washing dishes. I lasted about 3 weeks at that before I got a job in the university's computer center, where I provided support for rich kids trying to get through the engineering program. That lasted about 5 months before I scored a job working for a private scientific research firm about a 30 minute bicycle ride away, which paid *vastly* more than my work-study job. I worked at that job for several years before I was recruited to be the minion/sidekick for a super-intelligent physicist/mathematician at the Institute for Advanced Study. That job paid *a lot*, and more importantly got me some serious connections that have proved useful through my life. I still work with that fellow on a consulting basis.
My girlfriend at the time went to my same high school, she was a day-student from town. Her parents were both professors at the local college, and strongly encouraged her to get a university degree. She also applied to, and went to, Princeton, and they paid for the whole thing. She never had to stress about money, or work at school. She eventually became my wife, and we lasted together nearly 40 years. She never really understood the value of money, as she had never had to struggle with it.
We both decided not to raise our kid to be a privileged dork. My daughter still has a substantial amount of $$$ left over from her 4H prize and auction money, which she had been planning on using for her first year of college. Her grandmother left her a trust fund more-than-sufficient to pay for college and a Ph.D. program and several years of post-doc work - my daughter has not touched a penny of this money.
I only assumed the parent loans for her undergrad work because our family was "too wealthy" to get any scholarship from Princeton for her, though Princeton has a fabulous amount of no-loan financial aid available to anyone with need, with 70%+ of the students there on an aid package. (One of her roommates was there on a full-ride financial aid package, though her parents owned a home in the Hamptons...). My mistake was in not restructuring my assets so that she would qualify. Retiring YMOYL-style "early" doesn't really compute in the financial aid calculations, which viewed my invested retirement assets as available cash.
My daughter, bless her heart, has offered to repay me the amount I spent on her undergraduate and masters programs out of her trust fund, but so far I have advised her to "keep her powder dry", as I'm not exactly eating cat food yet, and she may well have need of those funds for something extraordinary some day. Knowing the funds are available has given her the security though to apply for postdoc programs and university positions that might not exactly pay the rent. (This is what privilege looks like...)
I'm quite proud of her that she hasn't ever asked for, or expected, support, and is currently living entirely off her fellowship salary/benefits, and seems to be crafting a life to continue to proceed in that fashion.
My parents told me they would pay for books and tuition in state and after that I would be on my own. I lived at home and went to the local four year college for a couple of years, at which time I'd saved enough from various jobs to go away to the big state university and pay for room and board. I thought that was very equitable. I always had roommates to help with living costs and I recall at one time all of us worked part time...a waiter, a dishwasher, and a cook. The eastern ivy league schools were not even in the realm of thought for me and most of my high school classmates. Tuitions did not seem huge, but it's hard to compare to present day dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
I've wondered of the expectations of the current generations. Is the default just to get a student loan and pay the piper later without thoughts of work and cost savings, or is the cost of college just so expensive that a loan is the best way to go. Is the concept of working one's way through college no longer a possibility.
I grew up in a mostly non-communicative single parent household. I don't recall any conversations about what to do about my future or education. My only real talent/interest was art. State college at the time was very affordable but the only thing offered other than fine art was commercial art so I declined. My parents both had advanced professional degrees so why they didn't counsel me more, I will never know. DD was very self-directed and had inheritance money for undergrad but got a few loans for grad school. At 42, I think she is still paying the grad school loans off.
Coming back to this thread belatedly. My mother was an RN and my father was a captain in the Merchant Marines, although neither of them went to college. So they were encouraging and supportive of me, but didn't really have the relevant experience to guide me.
I was an excellent student when I wanted to be, so everyone expected me to go to college. I was also a stubborn jackass of a teenager, so I decided that I wasn't gonna go to college and nobody could make me, lol. I really didn't have a clear understanding that I was going to have to support myself as an adult in the world, and I graduated from college without any real goals or sense of direction. So I got a crappy job in a factory that was truly mind-numbing, and I called my high school guidance counselor from the pay phone at lunch begging him to help me get into college. I had never taken SATs, so community college was the best next step for me. My parents were willing to pay for me to go to a private school, but I was told there would be terms and conditions, so I chose a school I could pay for myself (of course with my parents support, so not at self-sufficient as I liked to think of myself). Once I became focused, I did very well in college and graduated first in my class. I often seemed to prefer learning life's lessons the hard way.
I had student loans in the amount of $5000 or so..I paid loans off @ $28/month. I earned a BA in English Lit. Had anyone asked me (parents or guidance counselor), I would have shared that my goal from a tot was to be journalist/writer. And I would have benefited from going to Journalism School.
Actually, once when I was quite young I did say to my Mom, "When I grow up, I want to have a book in the library with my name on it (as author) as I so loved the library and reading..Mom said to me, "Oh, Big Shot, eh?" My old-school Dad thought women should be housewives, secretaries, nurses or teachers..writers were ill-paid....
As it turned out, I did make my living from writing (PR, advertising, magazine journalism, creative writing, authored a novel, etc.) Mostly, I was self-taught. Read books on how to write articles/interview/get free-lance assignments.
I always remembered a line from a Cat Stevens song that so resonated with me:
"From the moment I could talk, I was ordered to listen..."
Parents--please ask your children what they want to be when they grow up...and encourage/nurture them to pursue it with all their hearts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHiker
In my experience observing others, this leads to massive student loans and few marketable skills.
My parents were college educated and good at talking about professional goals for grown-up life and college curriculum.
But…It’s odd that they didn’t read me well and I remember my mother saying things like I should be a music major duh I’m not even good at that. They mentioned me being an occupational therapist because I was a little bit artistic and “good with my hands” but nooooo! ! I would have to work one on one with humans and probably even touch them. That is a big no.��
my brother had several short lived careers in his 20s: public relations for his college, radio Dj, paid political campaign worker all with a degree in journalism. Then he went back to school to get a two-year degree in respiratory therapy and that’s what he’s been doing for decades.
okay--what has happened is that a corporation from Ca. has come in, built the biggest wreckon yard in town, and all the independent, home-owned hillbilly wreckin' yards have gone belly-up, one by one. Well, when the big outfit first came in, they were pretty cheap, okay? But guess what? Now that they have almost a monopoly, they've jacked the prices waaaay up. Yup. about the only time you can get a reasonable price on stuff isv about 4 times a year which is a holiday weekend when most Normies get in their car and get out and DRIVE like crazy. But no, not littlebittymee; my holliday turdition ista go ta the wreckin' yard & maybe pull a motor or tranny or something. Yup. They usta have a 50%-off sales, but now it's like a 40%-off. It's miserable to have a Day of Reckoning at the Wreckin' yard. Yup.
That's a shame, bobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlebittybobby
My mom wanted me to become a dentist. Her reasoning was the money was pretty good and the stress level would be much milder than medicine. Who knows, she may have been right. As it happened, I stumbled around a few different career paths before settling on what worked for me in balancing out the various factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
I’m not a big believer in the whole “follow your passion” thing. Apart from changing desires and circumstances, it seems to me that insisting you need to be a filmmaker or pilot or golf pro for your life to be meaningful or successful is a pretty good formula for unhappiness.
You see a lot of that. Maybe too many parents aren’t saying “no” enough, resulting in unreasonable expectations. It also results in too many youngsters who believe they should be running the company by the end of their second year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd
I grew up with a lot of financial constraints and no influential connections. Maybe that sort of upbringing teaches you the importance of contingency planning and tradeoffs.
The follow your passion thing, never worked for me. Everything that I enjoyed, turned from fun stuff to work, and they wanted me to pretty much work 24 hours a day, seven days a week. That was then, fixing other people problems, whether car repair, computer work, etc. etc.
The restaurant, was just a job, and look at what it turned into.
Everything that I enjoyed as a hobby, at some point became a job, then no longer even a time for/as a hobby.