End of the American Dream

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Originally Posted by Alan

You know, up till now, I hadn't realized that I was a victim, that I and my progeny haven't actually achieved more than our parents and grandparents. I thought I was living the American Dream. I feel so silly!

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I don't think anyone is saying that you're not living the dream. I think the difference in perspective is that you seem to believe that it's entirely up to the individual whether they achieve it but others of us acknowledge that there are a lot of external realities that prevent many from realizing it. And also a lot of specifics of some people's lives that make it easier for them to achieve it. Just the fact that your parents and grandparents (and mine) achieved a level of the dream puts you (and me) miles ahead of many people.

Just as Peggy pointed out that each president doesn't start from zero, neither does each individual who is striving for the American Dream. Some start from plus 10 or plus 5000. Some also start from -10 or -5000. Government policy can do a lot towards leveling out those starting points so that as many people as possible can achieve the dream.

The rules matter. We play board games. They all have rules because they matter. The rules give everybody as much of a fair chance to win as possible. And as we play the game, we follow the rules. The rules are there so that nobody gets to cheat, take short cuts, join in conspiracies, or otherwise make a mockery of the game. Some people love to change the rules in their favor to give them a better chance to win.

Marco Rubio just got endorsed by one of the biggest rule changers in the game. Paul Singer. Check him out. Hedge fund manager who got a 2 million dollar boost toward the American Dream when he started. Victimized whole countries with debt purchase and seizures of property and blackmail. The game just changed in favor of Rubio but how much of his soul will he have to sell to achieve the American Dream.......

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

The rules matter. We play board games.

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I've often thought it's very interesting how close the game Monopoly is to real life, and not always in a good way. In other words, you start out the same, equal to other players (which of course, as jp1 points out, is NOT exactly real life). Then it's a combination of pure luck, plus a little strategy that puts you in a position of power/advantage vs. the other players. You build your hotels, which exacts a price on the other players. Someone starts amassing the money, while others lose. At the end, there's only one winner.

Monopoly is a zero sum game--while I don't believe life is that way necessarily, I do believe that, as Billie Holiday sang, "The rich get more, while the weak ones fade. Empty pockets don't ever make the grade." As LDAHL suggests in the comment about the individual vs. the community, how much of the American Dream is one of "winning" at the expense of other people? My personal opinion is that "unfettered capitalism"fosters a zero sum game like Monopoly, especially when laws like Citizen's United gives corporations Boardwalk and Park Place..

I can certainly see the analogy, Catherine, but I don't see it that way, that we are limited that way in a zero-sum game. Monopoly boards are static; life is ever-changing, and humans are constantly developing and learning. So I guess I see much more opportunity than what would be had an endless round of Monopoly.

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Originally Posted by rodeosweetheart

I can certainly see the analogy, Catherine, but I don't see it that way, that we are limited that way in a zero-sum game. Monopoly boards are static; life is ever-changing, and humans are constantly developing and learning. So I guess I see much more opportunity than what would be had an endless round of Monopoly.

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True. If life was as simple and static as Monopoly someone surely would've gotten frustrated enough to throw the board in the air and we'd be playing a different game now.

I do think, though, that there is less opportunity today for a lot of people. My grandfather, born in 1903, was orphaned at a very young age. He was bounced around to various relatives who didn't particularly want him, so at about age 10 he found a job, quit elementary school and set out on his own. Despite having only a fourth or fifth grade education, and no familial support, he managed to create a middle class lifestyle, eventually marrying and having three kids, supporting them and his wife's parents all on his wages. Today his prospects for success would probably be a lot lower.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Sometimes it's harder and sometimes its easier. Its especially tough now for the unskilled or low-skilled. Is there a grand conspiracy out there "rigging the game"? I doubt that's any more true now than it ever was. I don't see the path to Utopia involving a muzzled and gelded form of capitalism. Will most, or even many achieve this inchoate "dream'? Possibly not, but that is the nature of dreams. Otherwise we'd have to call it the "Irrevocable American Guarantee".

Dispense with the bloviation of the social justice warriors and the pandering of political enthusiasts, and the key factors to achieving whatever your version of the grand cliche we call the "American Dream" seems to be:

1) Grow up in a stable and intact family.
2) Limit your sense of entitlement to what you can earn.
3) Ignore the people who want to hang the "victim" label on you. They aren't your friends.
4) Work hard in any situation you find yourself in. You aren't being paid to realize the power of your dreams.
5) Never stop learning.
6) Be lucky.
7) Some decent math and language skills certainly won't hurt.
8) Save part of what you earn, and invest cold-bloodedly for the very long term.
9) Don't let anyone else define success for you.

Personally, I think Your Money or Your Life is a reasonably reliable guide, once you scrape off the New Age candy coating. It's funny how seldom it seems to be mentioned here these days.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Sometimes it's harder and sometimes its easier. Its especially tough now for the unskilled or low-skilled. Is there a grand conspiracy out there "rigging the game"? I doubt that's any more true now than it ever was. I don't see the path to Utopia involving a muzzled and gelded form of capitalism. Will most, or even many achieve this inchoate "dream'? Possibly not, but that is the nature of dreams. Otherwise we'd have to call it the "Irrevocable American Guarantee".

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I agree that its not necessarily more true now than its ever been. The "game" is structured to be rigged, its just a matter of which group is favored at any given time. Sometimes its the fastest, sometimes the strongest, occasionally its the smallest. Now it just happens to be the wealthiest. Once the rest of the group loses interest and/or realizes that type of asset hording isn't the path to nirvana favor will shift away from an extremely small group who's only real advantage is the ability to bribe someone else to do their bidding. If 7.125 billion people decide they have no need for what the few thousand folks currently on top have to offer and decide to work a little more locally (in general terms) the leverage of the wealthy could dissipate pretty quickly. Abstruse? Sure, but its a dream afterall! Does it actually need to make sense? I just hope we have a livable planet left when it comes true. That's Gregg's Non-State-Specific dream.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Sometimes it's harder and sometimes its easier. Its especially tough now for the unskilled or low-skilled. Is there a grand conspiracy out there "rigging the game"? I doubt that's any more true now than it ever was. I don't see the path to Utopia involving a muzzled and gelded form of capitalism. Will most, or even many achieve this inchoate "dream'? Possibly not, but that is the nature of dreams. Otherwise we'd have to call it the "Irrevocable American Guarantee".

Dispense with the bloviation of the social justice warriors and the pandering of political enthusiasts, and the key factors to achieving whatever your version of the grand cliche we call the "American Dream" seems to be:

1) Grow up in a stable and intact family.
2) Limit your sense of entitlement to what you can earn.
3) Ignore the people who want to hang the "victim" label on you. They aren't your friends.
4) Work hard in any situation you find yourself in. You aren't being paid to realize the power of your dreams.
5) Never stop learning.
6) Be lucky.
7) Some decent math and language skills certainly won't hurt.
8) Save part of what you earn, and invest cold-bloodedly for the very long term.
9) Don't let anyone else define success for you.

Personally, I think Your Money or Your Life is a reasonably reliable guide, once you scrape off the New Age candy coating. It's funny how seldom it seems to be mentioned here these days.

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I want to challenge you on a few terms you slipped into your analysis ....."Utopia"......."muzzled and gelded form of Capitalism.

First Utopia. Perfect happiness and fulfillment, total unity or world peace. I myself and as far as I know no one else has suggested that a regulated form of capitalism could produce Utopia. Perhaps, it might hold cronyism and materialism, consumerism, idolism, greed, misappropriation, theft, bribery, usury, fraud, abuse, gluttony, and a host of other "limitations" that are inherent in capitalism....to a low roar. But not Utopia.

I would not suggest and neither do others who think like me that we cut the balls off of capitalism and tie its mouth shut so that it is rendered wholly ineffective. Perhaps the analogy of placing a bit in its mouth might be more appropriate so that at least we can steer, start and stop the tool we call capitalism. Otherwise, free marketers would have us hop up bareback and hold onto the mane for dear life. While it makes for an interesting ride, it usually does not end well.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

I would not suggest and neither do others who think like me that we cut the balls off of capitalism and tie its mouth shut so that it is rendered wholly ineffective. Perhaps the analogy of placing a bit in its mouth might be more appropriate so that at least we can steer, start and stop the tool we call capitalism. Otherwise, free marketers would have us hop up bareback and hold onto the mane for dear life. While it makes for an interesting ride, it usually does not end well.

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But take out the greed, competition and unequal outcomes, and it's not capitalism anymore. Why would anyone bother? Thinking people would put out the same level of effort without the same rewards and punishments certainly seems Utopian to me. We'd be reduced (to paraphrase Churchill) from complaining about the unequal sharing of blessings to complaining about the equal sharing of misery. I'll take the occasional obnoxious billionaire (the effrontery of that Singer guy, actually demanding Argentina honor it's bonds!) over the pinched self-righteousness of Elizabeth Warren anytime.