I like the sound of your Renaissance daughter, Bae. Keep up the good work!
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I like the sound of your Renaissance daughter, Bae. Keep up the good work!
"Twelve weeks into your pregnancy, or 10 weeks after conception, your baby is developing fingernails. Your baby's face now has a human profile. By now your baby might be about 2 1/2 inches (61 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh about 1/2 ounce (14 grams)."Quote:
Originally Posted by poetry_writer
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pre...SECTIONGROUP=2
I had an ultrasound at 9 weeks, and I miscarried. It looked almost human, and was also a blighted fetus. Live birth is amazing! It never ceased to amaze me when I was farming and having to pull stuck lambs. Watching a calf be born breech was awe inspiring. Whenever there were spontaneous abortions, I realized how important full gestation in live birth animals such as we are.
wow, peggy, that was really condescending.
you assume that the amish are fully unenlightened as a community, unaware of or without any access to modernity. that is really condescending and a deep misunderstanding of the amish.
second, you assume that i am "romanticizing" the amish (or any insular community) with no awareness of my understanding of or experience with this community.
to characterize the amish participating in rumspringa as "unleashing a 3rd grader into the modern world" is grossly inaccurate.
90% of amish youth (source) between ages 16 and 27 spend time in their community's 'youth groups' that allow them to experiment with aspects of modernity, seek educational opportunities (usually in trade schools) as well as work within their communities. Most of these young people continue to live at home, work within their family's businesses, and still have a lot of fun as young people exploring the modern world from the safety of their community.
These youth groups can be small or large, with most of them sitting between 75 and 125 young people at any given time. Some will be more conservative and spend more time doing "churchy" things, while others will be more rambunctious and go so far as to own cars, travel to cities, have computers, cell phones, and other technologies, watch television, listen to a variety of music, and go to movies.
Typically, by the time a young person is 27 (and usually before), they are encouraged to make a choice to join the church or 'drift away' entirely and may be shunned (they may also not be shunned, though it is still worthwhile to recognize that the young people are still considered very separate from the rest of the community).
I also have found in my own experience with amish families -- such as being in a buying group from one of the farms that was within about 45 minutes drive of our place -- that the children are quite savvy and very capable at very young ages, girls included. Part of it is the life of work, the skills that they learn outside of their education -- which in pennsylvania must continue up to age 13 and meet the curricula standards of the state up until 8th grade.
I met several young amish women who had decided to become nurses and then ultimately midwives for their communities, who are also still active in their midwifery community that is not amish (professional organizations). These young women are as educated and capable as their peers -- and as enlightened and intelligent. And, their skill is invaluable.
Likewise, I knew a family of builders -- all amish -- whose young men knew several trades each in relation to building. They built "english" homes and could even do the electrical fitting, the HVAC, and other elements that they -- themselves -- do not use. Most of the young men, during their rumspringa time (or youth) went to trade schools in addition to apprenticing within their communities.
Most of the amish people whom I'd met over the decade of being in PA and meeting many different families (through different ways) showed a very quiet and closed community of people who were very intelligent, vibrant, and enlightened. They were widely read and had very clear sense of business, farming, trades, and the politics involved with all of this (laws, regulations, and so on) -- and they also went and spoke at various governmental meetings that would impact their ability to work and trade according to their values and needs.
Are there also problems in the amish community? Yes, there are problems with in it.
There are several different kinds of problems -- everything from abuse in families, hiding of people with disabilities, and genetic health problems that are as yet to be solved (though there are several 'english' doctors who are working on that specifically -- one of them formerly amish himself, but desiring to go to medical school, he did, and simply "missed the time" that he could become amish. in deciding to stick with modern medicine as a profession -- he simply 'drifted away' from the amish community. And yet, not fully shunned, he is their go-to physician for his community, and he's managed to find a treatment for three common genetic diseases -- I'll look for the source, it was a local newspaper article in the Lancaster New Era newspaper from about 5-6 years ago).
I would also venture out and say that I know many families of traditional, "weird" christian groups. I am very curious about people and their lifestyles.
I grew up with a family that was "Free Will Baptist." They had very strict lifestyles and a very insular community. The family that I knew had three girls and a boy. The three girls became nurses, and the boy became a welder. They are all married, have children, and are doing well. Their community allows computers (so i found them on FB), but doesn't allow tv, movies, or non-church music. They still live near their parents, still go to the same church, still follow the same dress codes.
They were not home schooled -- they went to the church's school (which is much the same in a lot of ways). They were normal, fun kids -- as far as I could tell -- and I enjoyed their company. I often went to church events with them, over to their church-friends homes, and even camping with them one week. While I never particularly bought into their religious views, they always seemed like nice, normal people to me. Several of their church friends were home schooled, but their mother worked to bring in more income. Dad was a mechanic, mom worked as a secretary.
I knew several other families of various religions -- mostly modern folks of various indian religions, muslim families, jewish families, and several kinds of christian families.
I have always been curious about groups and communities that "close in" or hold people close. I get concerned about cults, of course, but I seem to feel a difference between these more isolated/insulated communities and cults (usually in that they are not dealing with a hierarchical structure, that each family has it's own agency and sovereignty, and that individuals can walk away, even though it may be difficult).
I grew up for many years in Amish country. The Amish helped take care of my grandfather, their neighbor, when he was in his 90s. I still drop by and visit with some of them when I'm back in the area. We don't Skype much.
So what I'll say about Peggy's usual gemmummelt is sis mer iwwel.
First of all, what the hell are you talking about bae?!! If you weren't so intent on impressing everyone with your dazzling command of foreign language (and dead language) and actually trying to communicate an idea, perhaps folks would be a bit more impressed! I'm mumbling...What?
I don't think I'm being harsh on the Amish. this is the life they choose, fine. There is no requirement to admire it. I don't, obviously. I'm not talking about the quaint window dressing we all see, but the realities of the life. We can all admire simple living and buggies and oil lamps and farming. I do. But I admire it as a CHOICE, and not as some edict from god. Or rather the leading elder of the order, who has surprising latitude to enforce his interpretation of the 'rules'.
8th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else. These people don't just have a comfortable relationship with computers or technology, and although you say you know those who do, we know that isn't the norm. It just isn't. That's their whole thing, remember? Being shunned by your community, and even your parents is a very big pressure on young people. People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.
They can certainly choose this, that's their right. It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.
So, if a kid wants to be a yoga instructor? How would they fare there? Do you think they could stay in their community and do this? I don't think so. What about being an artist? or a Musician? Or a scientist? And what if this kid was a woman? This community has a fairly narrow focus on approved careers. And if you want something different? Sorry. You have to choose between your parents, friends, and community and the thing that floats your boat. I don't think I'm being condescending. Anyone who has lived an extremely sheltered life would be overwhelmed by modern American life. We have fundamentalist who won't let their kids go to public school because they fear the messages and ideas 'out there', but these people still have TVs and magazines and presumably function in the modern world. Take even those modern things away and you have a pretty sheltered person, innocent and ignorant of modern ways. Mind you, that doesn't equal to stupid, it just means what it says, ignorant of the ways.
Do you think Amish sit around the table talking politics? Or modern music, movies, the art museum, fencing, world languages, science, world politics, advances in medicine, business, or a zillion other things we talk about and take for granted everyone knows even a little about.
Michael Jackson. You probably don't listen to him, or even admire his music, but you know who he is. And if someone makes a reference to him, in what ever context, you probably get it. That's a cultural reference. And there are a million of those we don't even think about that color our everyday lives. And someone like bae might as well be a space alien with his constant 'impressive' use of Latin and obscure historical references (and not so obscure) How many Amish do you think have read 1984? or Animal farm? of Atlas Shrugged? Or Catcher in the Rye?
This is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to demonize them, but I'm also not romanticizing them either. They are what they are. A fairly closed, strict religious sect, quaint buggies aside.
As my dear husband likes to say, "you can stick a candle in a cow patty, but that don't make it a birthday cake"Quote:
Originally Posted by poetry_writer
I'm fairly certain an ape baby at 12 weeks looks a lot like this.
I WILL be stealing this phrase! Thanks...Quote:
As my dear husband likes to say, "you can stick a candle in a cow patty, but that don't make it a birthday cake"
peggy,
wow, just, wow.
ok, where to begin.
in order to be educated and capable, one doesn't require a formal education.
The reality is that just because the education isn't formal after a certain point doesn't mean that learning (and living) stops. It just means that it's channelled in directions that the community feels is valuable.
I have pointed out where young women are becoming nurse-midwives, where young men are out learning trades, and this means that many are seeking education beyond high school. How could they possibly qualify for these programs if they weren't capable because they had nothing greater than an 8th grade education?
The reality is, they do have an education. it doesn't look like a typical high school education, but they are literate, capable, and hard working. There's no reason why they shouldn't be accepted, so long as they can fulfill the prerequisites to get in and then finish the coursework satisfactorily to get their degrees.
And, many of them do go on to college. Here is an article about one girl and her sister who attend college near their amish family.
There is a lot that is relevant in that article-- one think that strikes me though is that this girl -- with only an 8th grade education -- learned email in one try. Because, guess what? It's not that hard. And, she has close connections to her family, and wants to become a midwife. She probably is managing to use a computer every day -- because she's smart and capable.
This is not to say that it is easy for young people who choose not to become amish. 5-20% of amish youth choose not to. And yes, some are shunned. But, from what I can tell from my reading (online, since I was looking for articles to demonstrate my own experience), the ex-amish population is very supportive in providing for these amish youth looking to find their way and many still maintain connections to their amish communities.
Finally, you state that you do not believe that the amish talk about politics at the dinner table. This always depends upon the family. I know many non-amish families who do not talk about politics at the dinner table. That being said, I do know that many amish are very much involved in politics and political life, as a means of protecting and preserving their way of life.
For example, any laws related to the dairy industry and the production of raw milk would be of great interest to the farm where we would go for/with our buyers club. we were seeking them out for raw milk, and the regulations are strict. any political action they can do in that regard, they will -- to protect their way of life and their livelihood.
On the flip side, there are also concessions to modernity. Pastuerization and refrigeration of dairy before it goes to market is important (if you are doing that instead of the regulations for raw dairy). This means that many amish actually have some pretty hefty mechanical equipment -- modern equipment -- in their dairies.
And this is relevant because -- while we often think of them as shunning everything for their quaint buggies -- they also are subject to many health and safety regulations as their part of the food supply. Their religious exemption doesn't work.
What is interesting is that the dairies that dealt in pasteurized dairy around the stoltzfous farm (one of many) where we got our raw dairy, formed an independent company that owned and maintained those items, and not being a "person," it technically didn't break the religious rules for people using mechanized equipment.
But, whenever those laws and regulations are up for question or change, the amish community is quite up-front about and in the political process, discussing the benefits and drawbacks of different elements of a given regulation in relation not only to their work, but also to their way of life.
and fwiw, when i was out and about in and around lancaster county, i saw many amish people (and families) at the public library checking out all manner of books, communicating with people in the broader community, and even taking course work that might be interesting to them. my MIL takes a 'tatting' class (a form of lace making, i think) with several amish women and girls, who apparently are quite good at it and want to use the technique in some of the handicrafts that they make and sell in their family's shop in the primary amish-related tourist district. my MIL says that they are really vibrant, and that they really didn't' 'get" Eat Pay Love, though they all ready it because the title was so nice.
They didn't understand why she left her husband and why she didn't want children, but they thought she had a fun adventure.
So you can go right on thinking that these are backwards people and you are not being disparaging. And, you can go on thinking that I'm romanticizing people whom I actually knew and talked to for years.
But that doesn't make it so.
red fox,
yes, gestation is everything. viability is wrapped up in it. and from there, legal personhood, really.