Cop asked to leave cafe because he made a customer "uncomfortable"

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Originally Posted by bae

It's a good way to exercise community oversight.

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Likewise I'd suggest that the town and county administrators and local police sit in for a few sessions at municipal court and watch the parade of people being hauled off to jail because they couldn't pay the fines and escalating penalties. Then watch these same people who lose pay from their hourly wage job while they are incarcerated, or worse, lose their jobs completely. And have to figure out child care. And hope it doesn't escalate to a felony which they'll have to report when job-hunting. And hope that they can keep up with their regular bills while trying to repay the courts.

We all look at this from the lens of our own experiences, so it's time for the blinders to drop and see what's really happening.

Around here, where we still have a functioning community and involved community policing, our officers clearly see the consequences of arresting/fining/citing people. As a result, the officers tend to be problem-solvers and peace-keepers, and try to avoid having situations end up in arrest/fines/...

Now, part of this is very self-serving - it takes an officer out-of-service for a huge amount of time if he arrests someone - we have no jail here, transport logistics are a pain, etc. That time he is out-of-service, there's usually no backup available, which is bad in the event Something Serious happens, which it does now-and-then. And if the arrest or citation lead to a trial, that takes the officer out of service for more time later on. The officers I know would rather spend their time doing real public safety work.

I realize other communities have some serious problems with their policing. I choose not to live in those sorts of places.

Now, if you want to see escalating fines leading to complete financial ruin, go try and trim a tree near a "wetlands" around here. You better have a few hundred thousand dollars tucked away...

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Originally Posted by Lainey

Likewise I'd suggest that the town and county administrators and local police sit in for a few sessions at municipal court and watch the parade of people being hauled off to jail because they couldn't pay the fines and escalating penalties. Then watch these same people who lose pay from their hourly wage job while they are incarcerated, or worse, lose their jobs completely. And have to figure out child care. And hope it doesn't escalate to a felony which they'll have to report when job-hunting. And hope that they can keep up with their regular bills while trying to repay the courts.

We all look at this from the lens of our own experiences, so it's time for the blinders to drop and see what's really happening.

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Lainey, Thank You for your very reasonable and well thought out post. You have stated yet another aspect of this that I have yet to bring up and one I gather that is foreign to some of the posters here. You are dead on in what you have posted, too. Rob

Lainey, throughout these numerous discussions multiple suggestions have been made to Rob to help the situation besides just hoping for big lawsuits, from individual counseling, to engaging the community to band together to fight racism to helping people lift themselves out of poverty. Every day ordinary people are working for change within their communities.
Your post brings up a whole new issue of our court system. Perhaps you could start a new thread with suggestions on what ordinary citizens can do to get involved to change things.

I used to attend school board meetings when I had kids in school for example. Out of the thousands of kids in the system there were times when Myself and a few other parents were the only ones there besides the board. There were several issues I dealt with and changed because I cared enough to speak, write and get others involved. I worked hard to be exceedingly polite, researched issues for their historical and legal origins before I spoke and saved my comments for the big things. Things won't change until people take an active role in their communities and band together. If people had not stood up for what was right there would still be signs in some areas of the south that say "whites only"

now I am involved with a group that is truly lifting families out of poverty one family at a time. Where there was despair, hope was given. I am marginally involved with another group who is working to restore native plants and is vigorously working to save the Monarchs. They work at the state level as well with community education and involvement. That may seem like a trivial thing in light of the big stuff going on, but each creature has it's place in the ecosystem. Change can be frustratingly slow but it can be done.

I agree there are multiple related causes of the original problems posted about. It's also true that people have busy lives and usually do not devote time to issues they feel do not affect them personally.

Remember the outcry when the Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused of rape? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Du..._lacrosse_case These were white upper-class students.

But the most interesting thing to me was to see how shocked their parents were when the prosecutor continued his case against them, even as it was falling apart, because he wanted to win re-election. So these families got a taste of what it was like to have the government aligned against them, and they had to pay expensive defense lawyers to keep their sons from prison. Ultimately justice was done, but it took a long time and a lot of money - something poor people don't have, and hence they are more easily targeted and swept up in scenarios like this but without the tools to fight back.

Finally I also agree that sometimes it is small groups of people working together and helping each other, or even one family at a time, that can make changes happen. But I also firmly believe that we have to remove the structures that permit or even encourage the miscarriages of justice, i.e., for-profit policing, or it will continue.

One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.

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Originally Posted by Lainey

One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.

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There is no perfect solution. How independent would judges or prosecutors be in cases against those who appointed them or financed those who appointed them. I'd like to think for the most part they rise above that, but if you want to allege bias it's just a matter of in what direction.

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Originally Posted by Lainey

One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.

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what can people do to make this change?

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Originally Posted by Yossarian

There is no perfect solution. How independent would judges or prosecutors be in cases against those who appointed them or financed those who appointed them. I'd like to think for the most part they rise above that, but if you want to allege bias it's just a matter of in what direction.

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Canada's legal system does appoint many of the judges and prosecutors and, while not perfect, those appointed have to go through selection process that is fairly objective and lengthy.
I have often wondered how standing for election will impact judicial process in the US. It is not unusual for the candidates standing for election to be equally unacceptable but one gets chosen with serious consequences in the political process with its checks and balances. What happens in judicial circumstances?

In the UK, Our judiciary and prosecutors are appointed, not elected.

In my experience the difference between electing judges and appointing judges is the difference between pandering to the electorate and pandering to the political elites/powerful.