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definitely, it's why you don't want hospitals to reach that overwhelm to begin with, but if they do, believe it did here in winter, it wasn't left up to individual hosptials, whole crisis care standards had been developed.Quote:
Don’t those people have enough to think about without making moral evaluations of their patients?
That's not triage!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
Triage means you treat the people who will probably survive with treatment and die without it first. You treat the people who need treatment but won't die if treatment is delayed next. And the people who will probably die even if you give them immediate treatment last. Of course whether someone is in category one or category three is often a judgement call. And someone with a 90% chance of dying even if you give them the best possible treatment, would usually get treated ahead of someone who only has superficial scrapes and bruises.
The point is, triage treats patients based on severity of injuries and how likely it is that fast treatment will significantly improve their outcome. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone thinks the person deserves to be sick/injured.
Obesity has a high correlation with covid-19 mortality. It's not a moral judgment, it's a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeParker
A guy at work was just telling us yesterday about a couple in the area in their forties with four kids. They both just died of covid. Their only risk factor was obesity. The kids are all medically fine, in keeping with the fact that covid rarely impacts children. Neither parent was vaccinated.
Being unvaccinated also correlates to covid mortality.
I hope your friend heals quickly and with no long term effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere
Kingston, MA put in a mask mandate and there were so many complaints 12 hours later they rescinded it. I wish people in my city were as concerned about the loss of personal liberties.
I have a triage kit in my response gear, training in what to do, and have had to use it in unpleasant real life situations. Not a fun time.
What is your point???? How does that have anything to do with you saying "if I have adverse health effects [because of being fat] that's on me. I would fully expect a healthier, especially a younger and healthier person, to be triaged ahead of me."?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
If you getting immediate treatment will improve the odds of you living, and your risk of dying will be higher if treatment is delayed, then medically and morally you should be treated ahead of a younger healthier person who is at less risk of dying. That is the essence of triage. Deciding to delay treatment because you think the sick person "deserves" to be sick, is indeed making a judgement about their character and unethical.
If it were congenital diabetes or anything else, not under my control, I would still expect the healthier, younger person to be given preference over me. They have many years of life ahead of them. I am on the downward slope. If resources are limited why expend them on me to give me X number of years of additional life if someone else can be given XX years, and they are more likely to rebound from being on a ventilator, which causes many problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeParker
That is a moral question which each person will have to decide for themself. You are totally free to refuse treatment or insist on being put at the back of the line, if you're conscious, but when you talk about triage you're asking the doctor to make a medical decision based on which person he thinks deserves to live or deserves to die. If you don't see the difference between those two situations, there is nothing I can say to you that will make you understand why I think your opinion is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
So if you had a baby that could live ninety years, and a terminal patient in their nineties who could live a few more days, and each needs immediate treatment, you would view them the same? I think most people are more utilitarian than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeParker
That is pretty much the opposite of what GeorgeParker was saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
One thing I just thought about was that my pre-pandemic monthly or door knocks from the Jehovah Witnesses have ended. I always thought they were nice people and never were imposing when unwelcome. They must feel stifled since spreading the word is one of their prime faith directives.
Rogar, one of my dive buddies is a JW. They’ve been having online services/meetings since last March and no end of that in sight. Buddy said it’s very strange going this long without the door to door.
The JW sent us a letter at work with a business card so we could contact them.
Unfortunately some religions teach that you can only go to heaven by converting others. Ugh!
Don't like EULA's, like to argue/debate, I would have figured you would have welcomed them and posted this and made it worth your while at $3000 an hour:Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeParker
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082FQFNDM
Attachment 3996Attachment 3995
I don’t have much of a problem with people knocking at my door…
https://i.imgur.com/dapsf3M.jpg
Looks like a few areas where Christmas caroling is definitely out.
Definitely would deter trick-or-treaters. LOL
Here former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb talks about masks not being the answer to Delta:
https://www.axios.com/scott-gottlieb...e216d7854.html
I would break in to kiss his smooshy face and caress his long soft ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by happystuff
The other day, on the island that is the county seat of my county, about a dozen anti-vax/anti-mask protestors boldly engaged in public protest inside the local food markets. Markets that have a strict mask-required policy. (Posted right next to the shirts/shoes require policy). The protestors even had printed up special t-shirts.
Anyways, the Sheriff showed up, escorted them off the property for trespassing, and they are now banned for life from the food markets on the island. Good planning.
The protestors are now making threatening social media postings targeting market employees.
I can see this ending well.
how ridiculous. How long does it take to grocery shop? You can’t wear a mask for the short time?Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
since when is it legal to threaten people?
bunch of spoiled babies.
Close contact for purposes of covid is within 6 feet of someone for 15 minutes or more during a 24 hour period per the CDC:Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...isolation.html
You don't get that shopping at a supermarket. You can't let someone be free because of a few seconds when they pass you in the aisle? Checkout lines are 6 feet apart.
Or better yet, get your damn vaccine you spoiled baby instead of expecting everyone else to alter their behavior.
I feel bad for the market owners, employees and other customers. With threats being made, I really hope no one gets hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
My understanding is that the Delta variant is more communicable in less time than the original was.
One thing that strikes me as odd is that with all the heat generated for and against vaccines and masks, we don’t see the same level of craziness surrounding hand-washing. I wonder why that is.
I heard back from a foundation that represents people for free who are suing over mask mandates and I returned an intake form they sent me. They mainly deal with schoolchildren so I don't know if they will take my case, but fingers crossed.
#IDidn'tGetVaccinatedForNothing
I agree that threats and violence are not the way to go. There are other ways to oppose the dictators.
Market Basket, a supermarket chain in my area, told employees if they got vaccinated they wouldn't have to wear masks, but now they're making them anyways. Some have quit. As if that's not bad enough yesterday I saw two managers not wearing masks while all the front line employees had to. I sent an email to their corporate office complaining among other things that the covid slogan is supposed to be, "We're all in this together" not "Do as I say, not as I do".
If covid ever goes away you’re going to have to come up with a very time consuming hobby to fill the void in your life when you no longer can spend so much time raging about masks.
There are many things I would like to do, but won't due to mask mandates. Two years in a row my vacation plans have been ruined by overbearing officials. So there will be plenty of leisure catching up for me to do IF life ever gets back to normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
Unfortunately we are setting ourselves up for lots of medical problems down the road by wearing masks. I was talking with my neighbor the other day and he was saying our bodies need to be exposed to germs to develop immunity. With a mask, you aren't.
I have read that one reason more kids are asthmatic today is that homes are too clean. It's called the hygiene hypothesis. Here is the article from the FDA:
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-b...ene-hypothesis
The article discusses RSV. No surprise that pediatric wards started filling with RSV cases after children were forced to wear masks.
There are so many unintended consequences of masks life may never get back to normal, though I hope it does.
Another term for this is "the cure is worse than the disease".
700,000 Americans and another couple thousand every day would disagree with you about how bad the disease is.* And an awful lot of medical professionals that have long worn masks all day every day at work would disagree with your neighbor. But I'm sure he knows more than scientists do. After all, if there's one good thing about this pandemic, it's that it has given lots of closet virology experts the chance to really shine and share their expertise with the world.
*Admittedly quite a few of these people were older or had other health issues so they don't really count to some people.
The world death rate has not increased due to covid but remains stable at 7.7 per 1000 from 2016 to the present:Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
https://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=xx&v=26
So the people who died are so old or feeble they would have died anyways. There is no excess mortality.
Also, some deaths are being classed as covid deaths so hospitals get higher reimbursements or, as Iris Lilies has posted about, so families get free funerals.
My neighbor doesn't have any financial stake in exaggerating covid deaths. I've lived next to him over 24 years and trust him a lot more than my Board of Health officials.
The graph you are referencing covers “deaths mid year” and goes to 2020, not the present. So, worldwide, deaths per 1,000 held steady until June of 2020.
interestingly, if you pull up the graph if infant mortality on the same site, you can see that more children survived infancy, so more people who were not infants died.
JP, did the people in this article die of tuberculosis, or something else?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...were-a-horror/
Similarly, when someone on their last legs dies of covid, was it really covid, or was covid the straw that broke the camel's back?
As you would expect with an aging population:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popu...on%20in%202006.
India's excess death toll during the pandemic was 3 to 4 million, official total 400k, but the excess deaths are over-counting, fake news, blah blah blah. FAKE NEWS!! The press is an enemy of the people!!!
VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACIES:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...he-official-co
old disposable fogies:
Speaking at a press conference on Tuesday, health secretary Rajesh Bhushan said that 53% of the people who died due to the viral infection are aged above 60. “Also, 35% of the deaths were recorded in the age group of 45-60 years, 10% in the age group of 26-44 years and 1% each in the age group of 18-25 years and below 17 years,” Bhushan said.
It is easy for some folks to be callus about death - of the old or young - when the deaths don't touch you (generic you - no one in particular) personally. Until it hits close to home and is a directly related parent, sibling, or child, it's easy to minimize all the deaths. Multiply the number of deaths - either just in the U.S. or world-wide - by those directly related/affected by each of those individual deaths, and the numbers are astounding as to how bad the disease is on a personal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I read somewhere that the seasonal flu kills between 20 and 60 thousand people in any given year, in contrast.
Let me rephrase that.
One would expect a certain number of older people to die each year. In an aging population, that would lead to x number of deaths per 1,000.
had infant mortality stayed the same the population would have been aging faster, so x would be higher each year for the same number of actual deaths. Let’s call that x+y (y representing the shift due to the higher percentage of old people)
by improving infant mortality, we increase the size of the younger population without increasing the raw number of older people , so we get x +(y-z) z representing the adjustment due to the counter shift in percentage of older people caused by a higher number of surviving infants.
on the chart, x = x+(y-z) however, if you look at the infant mortality chart, without some cause increasing the actual number of people at each age after infancy who die. X should be greater than x+ (y-z)
net mortality rates should have been going down even with an aging population, because the population is aging due to fewer births. The raw number of deaths is being cut significantly due to improved levels of infant mortality.