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Why do you think that? Most people who actually emigrate are usually the ones capable enough to do so. All the immigrants who came to this country emigrated from somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
Also, I think the number of people "actively engaged working to improve the condition of this country" are few and far between.
I agree. We were talking about emigrating OUT of this country to somewhere else, not people coming here. The people I know who are working to improve this country don't have any desire to leave it.Quote:
Originally Posted by creaker
Seriously? What about Red Cross volunteers? Shoot, what about the MILLIONS of people who volunteer helping in almost any way you can imagine every single day??? What about people working on political campaigns (whether you agree with their politics or not)? What about OWS participants (who I do not agree with, but believe a lot of them are working toward their version of improving the country)? Public servants of all kinds? Military personnel? Teachers?Quote:
Originally Posted by creaker
I think the problem lies more with the few that are trying to tear this country apart than with the millions and millions who work every day to make it a great place.
You have heard several times "emigration talk" from me. Yet I am actively engaged working to improve conditions here in the USA. I devote the bulk of my wealth, income, and time to public service. But if certain things come to pass in our country, I will move on. Which will *not* mean less work for "the rest of us", as you will no longer have my capital and labor working for the community here, but for some more reasonable community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
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+1 Believe me the thought of emigrating has occured.
Like the thought is supposed to be some kind of plea "oh my won't you people miss my wonderful greatness when I'm gone, oh I'll never be replaced". When it is not supposed to be any kind of arrogant narcassism at all. It is 1) merely at face value, I have had thoughts of leaving the country and would like to explore the idea further - sure actually doing it and exploring it are two different things. Well I know, talk is easy it is true, but exploration sometimes does lead to action (it's the only thing that ever does really) 2) yea kind of meant to express disgust with the U.S. government, it pains me a great deal that I am even having to have thoughts of leaving, and yea I blame that entirely on the U.S. federal government, because it is the reason I want to leave. It's not about the people (although I am peeved they are so complicit!), the weather, the economy (although if this gets bad enough it becomes a reason to leave too), or the state government or local government or anything. Mostly I want civil liberties, a more peaceful country, and a functioning democracy that actually takes into account the input of the people (and not just the lobbyist etc.).Quote:
When I hear someone say that the only thought I have for them is, "don't let the door hit you in the butt".
How much is enough? You know it's hard. Hard to work full time, hard to commute 2 hours everyday (that I hope to change that whether I leave the country or not :)), hard to take a class every week to improve my skills (and unfortunately a rather demanding one). Hard to visit a relative who needs my support now. Hard to remember to pay my bills (I actually am becoming that scatterbrained!). Hard to keep up with some of what is happening politically. And hard to find time to ocassionally hang out with friends on top of it. And so my involvement in local community things has dropped. I feel bad about it but ... I'm not perfect. Why I sometimes even waste time doing nothing productive at all. :) I've been involved in local community building, I've written congressmen, heck recently I've even written letters to the editor, I've donated small amounts to political causes. Yes it might be better if I was one of those radicals involved in OWS, a radical and active group is perhaps they only real hope of transforming this corruption but ... I dont' know what is left to do, protest I guess.Quote:
I have yet to hear emigration talk from anyone who is actively engaged working to improve the condition of this country. If they head off to graze their greener grass it will just mean less work for the rest of us.
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I hear it's not easy to get a job elsewhere.
Well the economy does stink many places, but also it would be harder to get a job places as an immigrant (or even guest worker) than as a native born. I think that's just kinda reality. I wish I had pursued more higher education, it might have helped me here. I hear countries favor people with advanced degrees.Quote:
Why do you suppose?
I stand corrected bae and give you full credit for your good works in your community and beyond. My definition of what I "hear" is still somewhat rooted in the pre-internet version of conversation. I suppose it is the folks who are more inclined to want to be taken care of by a government or society when speaking of greener pastures that I can't stomach. To those people I say go for they will almost certainly be better off (as will we who stay). If, OTOH, we are not able to right the course in a way that encourages the actively engaged, the doers in all respects, to stay we will have done irreparable damage to this country. I can see how the pendulum swings too far either way. We need not run anyone out and we need not cow to anyone to get them to stay. Fairness lies somewhere in the middle. Most of the actively engaged people I communicate with are only looking to be treated fairly or, in lieu of that, to be simply left alone.
I won't worry about narcissism. This is a big country, there are very few people who would leave much of a void at the national level if they left. If someone thinks they have that stature I won't burst their bubble: I have too much to get done. The thing I have a hard time with is people who criticize how things are but don't do anything about it. If you (the proverbial "you") believe leaving is the most effective way to initiate change on a personal level, great, go for it. But keep in mind that most of the rest of us would like to stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Gregg,
That's a pretty hefty accusation.Quote:
When I hear someone say that the only thought I have for them is, "don't let the door hit you in the butt". I have yet to hear emigration talk from anyone who is actively engaged working to improve the condition of this country. If they head off to graze their greener grass it will just mean less work for the rest of us.
As a person who has immigrated to another country and is working toward residency in this country (and possibly dual citizenship), it's actually offensive.
I have done volunteer work since I was 14. I have worked/volunteered in both social and political arenas. I'm still involved with certain social and political movements in the US -- and I don't live there. I'm still a citizen, my family and friends live there -- I have a vested interest.
I didn't leave because the US is bad. I didn't leave because I wanted to be "taken care of" by another government.
I left for opportunity. Which leads us here:
Really?Quote:
If wealth accumulation is your goal there is nowhere better to be than in the US. Nowhere.
I started my business here because 1. it would require less capital, 2. there is less competition, 3. there is more opportunity for my husband's chosen work, and 4. we had the opportunity to make more money, and still maintain our basic lifestyle while we got the business off the ground.
I truly believe that had we stayed in the US, we would never have gotten ahead. The competition is fierce, it takes a lot more capital to keep a business running, and because you have to provide your own health insurance -- which is a crippling amount of money for a start-up -- or we would have had to keep my husband working in an job full time -- which meant that we'd have to put my son in child care, another crippling cost -- it is simply not tenable to our work/family life.
Work smart -- yes. Take advantage of opportunities -- yes. Earn more income and accumulate wealth -- indeed possible outside of the US.
NZ fights "brain drain." IF you are educated and on the skills shortage list, you can get work-to-residence without a job. about 1/3 of my clients work in recruiting firms, and they have more positions than they can fill. They need people who are educated and want work.
But, there is hesitance to hire people from other countries.
First, the laws are designed that it is extremely, extremely difficult to fire someone. So, when hiring someone, you think about "do I want to work with this person for 20 years?" It's not really the same mind-set as in the US when it comes to hiring, KWIM?
So, people are looking to hire people whom they think are culturally similar. Americans are liked, but there is a common belief that Americans will leave. I was asked about 4 times a day in our first year here "how long are you staying?" and "when are you leaving?" The reason for this is because many americans get here and then hate it. So, they leave quickly. And, Americans are seen as "different." (We are different.).
From there, your visa status is important. Two-year work visas (without residence attached) are typically seen as lesser than work-to-residence and of course, actual residents and nationals. That two-year visa says "you won't be here long" and so you'd pretty much be stuck with contract work only. But, work to residence and those who get residence right away are much more likely to get long-term work.
And, like I said, NZ is really fighting 'brain drain.'
NZ isn't "paradise" but it is a great place to live. I really love it here.
I'd kind of like to as well, but I don't like the direction this country is taking. And if activism (like anti-war protests, like occupy congress etc.) seems to be continually met with well apathy, I just don't know what can possibly change it short of complete economic collapseQuote:
But keep in mind that most of the rest of us would like to stay.
I do realize that if I ever were to emigrate I'd have to find things to love about my new host country and not just want to leave because I want out of a getting worse all the time police state (though I do). Apparently some countries (Norway?) now accept us as political refugees.
Oh yes interest always will be vested, but sigh ... wish there was more momentum for real change.Quote:
I'm still a citizen, my family and friends live there -- I have a vested interest.
I volunteer around 150-200 hours a year. I would not call it "improving the country", there's too much baggage attached to that phrase. Most people are out there trying improve their own lives (a very worthwhile goal), some benefit the country in the process, some cause harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
The people who are capable of emigrating are usually capable. And more likely a loss than a benefit. I think we should be saying more "what's making you leave?" than "don't let the door hit you on the way out".