here we go again...

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Originally Posted by morris_rl

If those of a liberal political bent are failing to even replace their numbers and those of a more conservative political bent are increasing in numbers and many of them are not being indoctrinated in the public school system, what implications do you think this will have over the next 30 to 40 years in the social and political spheres?

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Hopefully some of them will see the light and leave the cult. It is possible....see the No Longer Quivering website for testimonials.

http://nolongerquivering.com/

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

Wednesday I leave for a long weekend in Lancaster Pa. There is a big quilt show that I have been attending every year for 20 years. We generally stay in Bird-in-Hand and Intercourse.

This of course is in the middle of a very commercial area of Amish farms. The first years we went there were gas lamps in the fabric stores and the streets rolled up at 5 pm except for a few restaurants. One of the first years we were at a fabric store and they had a stack of quilts on a bed. They would turn them back for customers to see and the owner of the store only had one helper and happened to mention that they had to wait for help to get them back right on the bed. We volunteered to help and spent an hour helping a young girl turn quilts and move quilts as many had been sold and they invited us to share lunch with them in the back of the store. More like a back porch. These were older women and they had a system. Some liked to piece the quilts, some liked to quilt and the more gregarious and least shy worked in the store. It was a wonderful experience for us. There were no men as they were in the fields plowing and were going to another farm for lunch as they bought the equipment with them to help. They shared equipment. They had no phone in the house, but even back then there was a phone in the garage. My mother in law had quite a conversation with one of the women as they shared a love of weaving and both had grandchildren and she would go there several times a year and always stop and chat with her.
Fast forward and over these twenty years we have seen gas lamps in the stores give way to electric lights, yet the young women still work there. Many of the farms have struggled to stay solvent so they often sell to the public.
I do think they are very aware of politics since many laws apply to them as well- I have seen many an Amish man sitting reading the paper. The kids go to schoolhouses on scooters and by walking, carrying their lunch pails. Like any farm area, the school year is somewhat dictated by crops going in and coming out, and selling and putting food up.

It makes me sad to see this area north of Lancaster so commercial now, but south of Lancaster there is little commercialization. Believe me, you don't want to get stuck in the back roads in the dark unless you know where you are going as there is not a light for miles. The stores are open later, even till Midnight Friday night, and the stores have websites. But everything that can close will do so on Sunday. I would personally like to see that happen here- our lives are too hectic and a family day for everyone that can would be great I think.

Now we have Amish and Mennonites flocking to the East of Lake Ontario because land is cheap, and there is also a newer community in Southern NY and there have been a few problems as some of their ways are foreign and like any small town, there are lots of people doing things they way they always have with people they have always known.

If I have to say one thing about the Amish is that they take care of their own. If a barn burns down, they are all there raising a new one. They share tools and skills. If a person gets too old they find something for them to do. There is a fabric store we have gone to for all these years and the once robust female who ran the place had a stroke and she still is at the store, talking to customers from a stool. Through the years many of the young women we encountered were less shy than the local home schooled Christian girls I have run across who seem to me to be more isolated. They seemed to be more confident and less scared.

We could greatly benefit by adopting some of their ways. Of course, my observations are just that, observations based on my limited view of my tiny slice of the world.

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Yes yes, they quilt and sew and eat lunch and read the newspaper....>8)
I never said I thought they were worms or idiots, or muzzled. You think I'm surprised they TALKED to you? (here's my surprised face :0!) You all are sure reading a lot into my posts that isn't there.

ANM got it. I was talking about repressive societies. Not just individual families but as a culture. And yes, some towns are like that except if you decide to go off and become a nuclear scientist I'm pretty sure those towns will let you move back and live with them and belong to their church. Not so with the Amish. If you reject the religion/lifestyle, you're lost. Have you ever heard of anyone 'becoming Amish'? Probably not. That is a closed society. You are born into it and once you're out, you're out. No getting back in. There are some fundamentalist churches/groups who are quite repressive, but even there if you choose to be an evolutionary scientist, they will eventually come around and welcome you into their flock, although they will continue to try to show you the evil of your ways. ;)
Of course they are friendly to english. They want you to buy their products after all, they are business people. But don't think you are privy to their inner lives. You can not be, ever.
These are my observations too, which apparently are WRONG and I'm not allowed to have. So, go ahead and tell me how they eat REAL food, and can count past 100 and put their pants on one leg at a time. But if you re-read my posts you'll see that's not why I don't admire them.
sheesh! I guess it's a faux pas to say I don't admire the Amish. Kind of a requirement for the SL crowd. PC even!
*I also evaluate each new technology very carefully, as I think most on here do, but I also value sending my daughter to school beyond the 8th grade. And even if my kids pursued a career I didn't think was great, I certainly wouldn't shun them or tell them they can never rejoin my society/church. Or marry the good little Amish girl down the road. Another hallmark of a repressive society. You can't marry out of the faith.

I am *reading* your post. You expect me to "read into" your post that you MEANT that you felt these children (poor kids!) were sadly not being encourage to "pursue their dreams!" beyond what their community values or they would be shunned!

But here is what you WROTE:

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Originally Posted by peggy

I'm not talking about the quaint window dressing we all see, but the realities of the life. We can all admire simple living and buggies and oil lamps and farming. I do. But I admire it as a CHOICE, and not as some edict from god. Or rather the leading elder of the order, who has surprising latitude to enforce his interpretation of the 'rules'.

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It's not a choice.

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8th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else.

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Really, I'm reading into this?

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These people don't just have a comfortable relationship with computers or technology, and although you say you know those who do, we know that isn't the norm.

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"we" do? evidence?

Oh, wait, here is your evidence:

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It just isn't. That's their whole thing, remember?

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Obviously, you are very ignorant of the amish. Do I know about the amish? DO i remember? Yes. What about you?

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Being shunned by your community, and even your parents is a very big pressure on young people. People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.

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Yes, and obviously this is not a problem of just the amish, as you write. If this was your whole point, why make all of the other ignorant, condescending statements that you made?

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They can certainly choose this, that's their right. It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.

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Yes, That's right. I'm reading into your opinion that you find these people "non productive and backwards."

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So, if a kid wants to be a yoga instructor? How would they fare there? Do you think they could stay in their community and do this? I don't think so. What about being an artist? or a Musician? Or a scientist? And what if this kid was a woman? This community has a fairly narrow focus on approved careers. And if you want something different? Sorry. You have to choose between your parents, friends, and community and the thing that floats your boat.

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As evidenced, a kid can choose to leave, and they may not be fully shunned by their community. I've given several examples.

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I don't think I'm being condescending. Anyone who has lived an extremely sheltered life would be overwhelmed by modern American life.

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Culture shock is not a terminal disease. Culture shock can be overcome, and in most instances, is. And even if it is overcome, often people choose to go back to their original culture/environment anyway. It is, perhaps, a more educated choice.

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We have fundamentalist who won't let their kids go to public school because they fear the messages and ideas 'out there', but these people still have TVs and magazines and presumably function in the modern world. Take even those modern things away and you have a pretty sheltered person, innocent and ignorant of modern ways. Mind you, that doesn't equal to stupid, it just means what it says, ignorant of the ways.

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Right, and ignorance can be overcome.

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Do you think Amish sit around the table talking politics?

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Yes.

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Or modern music, movies, the art museum, fencing, world languages, science, world politics, advances in medicine, business, or a zillion other things we talk about and take for granted everyone knows even a little about.

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Yes, to many of these things (not music or movies, but pretty much the rest of it).

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Michael Jackson. You probably don't listen to him, or even admire his music, but you know who he is. And if someone makes a reference to him, in what ever context, you probably get it. That's a cultural reference.

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Right, without knowing all the cultural references of another culture, all is lost. I live in NZ. I don't get 90% of cultural references here. Seriously.

Poor me, so backwards and unproductive and not able to make a choice about how to live!

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And there are a million of those we don't even think about that color our everyday lives. . . . How many Amish do you think have read 1984? or Animal farm? of Atlas Shrugged? Or Catcher in the Rye?

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Right, because without these things, we just can't have a good life in the modern world, or have a real choice in regards to deciding not to continue in modern life or their own traditions.

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This is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to demonize them, but I'm also not romanticizing them either. They are what they are. A fairly closed, strict religious sect, quaint buggies aside.

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So, this is what you are talking about?

That these people are ignorant, non-productive, and backward and incapable of making it in the modern world, and because of that, incapable of having a choice in regards to whether or not to continue in the modern world or be amish?

Demonized view? no.

Ignorant and condescending? yes.

For whatever it is worth, I greatly dislike the intellectual dishonesty of not owning the statements that you make, and then blaming the reader for "not understanding what you meant."

It is easy enough to communicate clearly. You have editing options on this forum, even.

I found many of the statements condescending to me personally, because it was asserting that I don't know what I know. That I don't know amish people, or that I don't know about their lives, and that I haven't studied them in academic context even (which I have). That is condescending.

Secondarily, I found many of the statements absolutely ignorant about the amish and disparaging of them in the process. Honestly, to call them -- repeatedly -- ignorant and backwards, and then assert that you did not mean/say those things?

I honestly don't know how to respond to that. Other than with shock, and a clear quoted post -- quoting back your own statements to you.

If you would like, you can substitute the term "peggy" and "peggy's community" for every statement, and see whether it holds up. See whether you would feel disparaged by it.

"Peggy is non productive, ignorant, and backwards, only capable of washing toilets, entirely overwhelmed by a culture that she has never experienced such that any choice she might make to return to her own culture is not really a choice."

Yeah, it's disparaging, isn't it?

no , it's not because it doesn't make any sense. I never once called them ignorant and backwards, which by the way isn't the same thing. A person can be ignorant of many things but not be backwards.
So, you assert that the Amish are just like us except they drive buggies. Just as educated, just as worldly, just as prepared to exist in a 21st century world. They are scientist, and doctors, and lawyers, and electricians, and librarians, and college professors, and authors, and artist and musicians, and yoga instructors, and world travelers, and chefs, taxi drivers and airplane pilots, and and and....so, why exactly do they shun cars? Why do they not have electricity? Or modern pluming? Or encourage their kids to pursue their dreams? And why is it so important to you I admire these people? I don't denigrate these people, I just don't admire them. That's not condescending. That's just looking at it in a realist way. The other side of not admiring them is not disgust or hatred. It's ambivalent, at best. I just refuse to romanticize them.
Maybe you think it's quaint that their kids have very little choice in their futures. It's their kids after all, and they do look sooo cute in those pictures of them peeking out the back of the buggy. I just take a different look and see young girls, about bae's daughters age, who couldn't even dream of doing 90% of the things bae's daughter gets to do and enjoys. And it's BECAUSE I respect those little girls that I say I feel sorry for them in that they won't be able to have those advantages of culture, education, experience that bae's daughter has. Simplicity, as a choice, is fantastic, and freeing for those who choose it freely. Being forced to choose between your family and community and those experiences bae's daughter enjoys at the encouragement of her family is not choice, really. How many people choose to turn their backs on their family and community. Not many.
You see that as condescending. It's not, but apparently you think so. I see it as lack of opportunity for these bright young people. This is what I've said before. You just refuse to read it.

So, if they leave they might not be FULLY shunned by their families? Maybe just a little shunned? Do you read what you write? Would you want to be ANY shunned by your family? How is that not incredible pressure on these young people?
I think it's you who has an unrealistic view of this society.
http://www.amish.net/faq.asp
Answer: The Amish children do not attend formal schooling past the eighth grade. Amish parents provide training from an early age through young adults, teaching them the skills necessary to be farmers, or other skills, i.e., carpenters and parents. This training prepares them much better for their life as an Amish adult than what they would receive in formal schooling. The issue of compulsory school attendance until age 16 was decided as the result of the arrest and conviction by Greene County, Wisconsin, authorities, of three fathers (two Amish and one Mennonite). The United States Supreme Court in the case of Wisconsin vs. Yoder ruled in l972 that it was unconstitutional to force the Amish into high school. You will find excellent information on the subject of Amish schooling and the Supreme Court Decision at the website of the group who defended the Amish, The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom, headed by the Rev. William C. Lindholm, Chairman.

This is all I'm saying. Quit reading more into it than I intend. I never said they were backwards. i just said they live on the edge of this 21st century civilization. I feel sorry for the kids who, I'm sure like most kids, see this exciting world and can't really join it without leaving their families/communities/church.

Admittedly it's probably the religious aspect I don't like. I guess it's really kind of a cult when you think about it. A rather harmless, non threatening cult, but a cult none the less. Now I'm sure you'll find something horrible about me saying that.
Do you think those polygamist Mormons in Texas are a cult? Harmless and to be admired? How are they different than the Amish, besides the obvious more than one wife? Look beyond the cute dresses, which by the way, unless you didn't notice, are exactly the same with small variation in color, no pattern. Do you think they all just happen to share the same style sense or is there something else going on there?

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You admire the Amish, that's obvious. Doesn't mean you want to be Amish. I don't, also obvious. Doesn't mean I hate or despise the Amish. It doesn't make one or the other of us right or wrong. It's just two observations on this world of ours.

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Originally Posted by peggy

Yes yes, they quilt and sew and eat lunch and read the newspaper....>8)
I never said I thought they were worms or idiots, or muzzled. You think I'm surprised they TALKED to you? (here's my surprised face :0!) You all are sure reading a lot into my posts that isn't there.

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My post wasn't about you. It was about me and my experiences.

Peggy,

I never asserted that they are "just like us except that they drive buggies." If I did, please quote my statements directly.

Second, you asserted in post 85:

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It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.

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th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else.

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A non-productive, backwards (that's what regressive means) who are only prepared to wait on tables or scrub toilets.

Despite evidence to the contrary.

I never asked you to "admire" them. I found your statements ignorant and condescending towards the amish and towards me and my experience of them. It's not at all important that you 'admire' anyone -- but i certainly expect that people of divergent world views from yours at least be accorded the respect that you feel that you deserve.

For the rest of it, that will have to wait.

But you are only digging for yourself a deeper hole to work your way out of. Perhaps you'll want to read your post and do the edit function?

Can I call a time-out and make the observation that this misunderstanding seems to be escalating? I suspect the medium rather than the message. It's impossible to hear affect and all the other body-cues in communication on these pages.

Peggy,

Yes, it is clear we have a difference of opinion. Of that, I do not care. What I do care about is when you are condescending toward me in the posts, as well as making all manner of false assumptions and accusations, as well as making disparaging remarks regarding the Amish.

You make two statements that you assert is your "point." The first, in post 85 is as follows:

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People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.

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and in post 115

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I just take a different look and see young girls, about bae's daughters age, who couldn't even dream of doing 90% of the things bae's daughter gets to do and enjoys. And it's BECAUSE I respect those little girls that I say I feel sorry for them in that they won't be able to have those advantages of culture, education, experience that bae's daughter has.

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With these, I can agree. That is to say, I can agree with the sentiment, and with the criticism of the amish culture in regards to this -- though the second one includes "pity" which I consider condescending.

Nevertheless, these opinions are fine by me.

Everything else -- which you seem to assert as evidence (with the exception of the amish.net information which would constitute as evidence) -- falls into wild claims and misinformation.

Foremost, you asserted that the amish would simply not survive in the 21st century world. Likewise, that they are "shunned" and therefore it's not a real choice.

I provided evidence to the contrary.

First, as much as 20% of the young people choose not to continue to be amish. This is a fairly large retention rate, I grant you. But does this per se demonstrate that they 'do not have a choice?' No.

It is easier to "go with the flow?" Yes, it is. And, the modern world may be overwhelming for many amish youth. And, those reasons may be part of why 80% choose to become amish.

But, because 20% can and do choose to leave, it certainly demonstrates that these people are actively choosing -- one way or the other, and that they have the opportunity to choose.

Likewise, you assert that they are "simply not prepared." You assert that they are not educated enough. I provided (linked) a direct story of a young woman who was in college and preparing to become a nurse and midwife. Obviously, while her formal education ended at age 13, she still had other knowledge, skills, and education on which to build this college degree and career. She also -- as it said in the article -- learned to use email in one try, and is likely even far more familiar with computers now.

In addition, in many other articles online, many ex-amish choose a wide variety of careers, from being musicians to doctors, lawyers, scientists, college professors and whatever else. Most of them -- because it is easy for them and they can make a comfortable living -- head into trades. This qualifies -- in my opinion at least -- as "making it in the 21st century."

Finally that article also demonstrated that this young woman was not shunned. I also asserted the story of an ex-amish doctor who still lives close to his family and has close ties to the amish community. He also is not shunned.

Shunning is complex, and usually done if a person is considered a "bad influence" on the family or youth in general. A person who is doing good work -- though outside the bounds of being amish -- likely will not be shunned by their families.

You assert that you are simply taking a 'realistic' view and accuse me of "admiring" the "quaint" amish and "romanticizing" them.

To form a realistic view, one has to have knowledge. That involves -- in these sorts of forums -- the accumulation of evidence. You provide that evidence as you go, to back up your claims. I have provided that. It demonstrates that my view *is* realistic.

Yes, you are welcome to your opinion and your sorry feelings for the amish. But, you are not welcome to be condescending toward me, or disparaging to another culture that you obviously have very little knowledge of. It is simply inappropriate.

I wouldn't tolerate it if you had put "Poor Black People in West Philly" as the group, or "Hispanics" or "illegal immigrants" or what have you. Why should I tolerate it since they are amish?

And hiding behind "oh well, we have to agree to disagree." I refuse to "agree to disagree" with your disparaging remarks. It's simply not just to do so.

red fox,

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept the "limitations of the medium" excuse here.

Foremost, I can only assume that most of us are familiar with this medium and it's limitations. Peggy, for example, has been utilizing this forum since January 2011. So, she has at least 1 yrs experience with this medium. I joined in April 2011, and so have a bit less. But beyond that, I have been on forums since 1994, which means that I pretty much understand the limitations of this medium.

I assume -- and I do not believe that it is unreasonable to assume -- that anyone who is over 25 and has been on a forum for over year has the capacity to communicate clearly within this media's limitations.

To assume otherwise is to assume that people lack the intelligence and adaptability to understand this media and communicate clearly within it. I do not like to assume that people are lacking in these things. Call it a "benefit of the doubt" approach if you will. Or an optimistic approach to people.

In this instance, I have quoted peggy's own statements and responded in a reasonable way -- providing anecdotal evidence as well as evidence from articles from the internet to counter her claims against the Amish.

She countered these with more wild claims, an accusation that her statements were being "read into" (eschewing responsibility for her own communication choices and blaming the reader for misunderstanding), and finally asserting that she is merely being "realistic" and asserting that my perspective is "romantic" and that I find the amish "quaint" (a position that I find personally condescending towards me and towards my relationships with amish people).

And no, I'm not reading that into her statements. They are clear as the bright blue sky -- because, guess what? I read her statements, and I read my own before publishing them, and I sometimes edit them after the fact if they do not clearly communicate my intent (my meaning).

Is it too much to ask that a person communicate clearly? And if they are called out for saying something that is inappropriate or condescending, that they look at it and say "I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. This is what I meant." as opposed to "You read into my statements! You obviously don't really get it!"

After all, I called out bae on the pepper-spray incident. And, I was right there too. You cannot simply hide behind "you are reading into it." he knows better; we all do. Why should any of us -- peggy included -- get a free pass?

Perhaps I'm just asking for people to be respectful of other people's cultures, other people's experience, and communicate with other people in this medium in a clear manner?

Is that inappropriate?