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That feels right to me. They've got the videotapes and the description from one of the victims who survived. If an American did this in another country, they wouldn't have any rights. Not to mention he ran over his own brother in front of all those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogar
Ouch, I don't totally want to open a can of worms here? But I remember being taught in high school one of the great things about America was that citizens of this country were entitled to due process of law? Given that our lives are not worth guaranteed access to health care and this is the only country in the first world this holds true for, perhaps holding onto due process for all citizens might not be a bad idea? True, the person we are talking about is a POS in my humble opinion, but I still would like to see him not be treated like some animal - a fair trial, legal representation, and a chance to tell his side if he so desires - are these not rights that we once held dear in the United States? As I said, since human life is not automatically worth access to health care here, should we not fight and fight like hell to protect what few rights differentiate us from those many in the US consider lesser? Food for thought as always, RobQuote:
Originally Posted by awakenedsoul
This begs me to question *why* it's so violent there, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by awakenedsoul
And, please note -- I was born, raised, and educated in the US, and have only lived here for 3 years. It's interesting to me that some countries are far less violent than others, and that the US is as violent as it is.
Likewise, throwing my kid into the game as an emotional argument is. . . basically uncool. Obviously, if my son were in danger, I would utilize every resource at my disposal, and hope that others would do the same. But I do not expect the manhunt to shut down a major city's transportation lines, work, etc and for there to be door-to-door searches of people's homes looking for it. When this happens, the police go about their business, and so does everyone else.
I'm not arguing any differently in stating that I don't understand how the citizenry is thinking these days.
I might also note that I have friends in boston, too -- many of whom were writing a fair amount of FB -- and most of whom thought the whole situation was bizarre.
for many of them, they don't see why this race would be targeted. It isn't that important of an event, really, and it's apolitical. It was patriot's day, but really only bostonians know and/or care about that.
from there, many of them didn't see the need for the whole city to shut down for the manhunt. Manhunts continue for other incidents without shutting the whole city down and calling in the national guard. Wildfires, blizzards, and floods are one thing -- but a simple police matter of a man hunt? It just seemed excessive.
This from my bostonian friends, mind you, not just me. It's what we talked about. We talked about how weird it was to have tanks in the streets and door-to-door searches for a very simple police/FBI matter. . . something that they do every day for all manner of violent (and nonviolent) crimes.
This is why we were asking the question of -- why is everyone ok with this? And is this a drill? I mean, look at how "terror" really controls the masses so easily.
Anyway, this is something that my friends and I were mulling over. And trust me, we are no advocates of conspiracy theories, nor do we like that Alex JOnes guy, or anything else.
SImply, we are looking at this from a POV of "hmm, this is strange." Because it is strange. It's strange all around.
Seriously? Take this with a grain of salt because I started questioning the United States and how things are done here at the age of 15 - there is a cynical part of me that indeed wonders if this was a drill. And if what's his face the 2nd supsect that is still alive does not get a fair trial, I wonder if this is a drill for the future too. Very scary stuff and I hope with all my heart that I am wrong. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoebird
Zoebird, I agree the whole thing--from the target to the finish in a boat in a back yard--is strange.
As for what law enforcement was thinking? Well, they had a picture of suspect #2 leaving what looked like a backpack with a bomb in it right next to an 8 year old boy and his sister. They knew the two men on the run had shot at and thrown IEDs at police. One of the suspects had walked directly up to a group of policemen, shooting and I think throwing IEDs. They suspected the two suspects had killed a policeman. They knew they had carjacked a car and kept the driver with them for a period of time.
My best guess is that law enforcement knew the men were armed and dangerous and were trying to prevent any further deaths. Also, clearing (or mostly clearing) the streets made it easy to spot the few people who were moving about. Shutting down public transit made it difficult for the suspects to get anywhere.
Maybe it was overkill. Maybe it was the best way to keep the general public safe. I'm sure in the days to come every single decision made will be questioned and debated.
It's a violent culture. I get the impression with these guys the influences were multicultural though and not *just* American culture. Chaos in a melting pot.Quote:
This begs me to question *why* it's so violent there, though.
And, please note -- I was born, raised, and educated in the US, and have only lived here for 3 years. It's interesting to me that some countries are far less violent than others, and that the US is as violent as it is.
Why not just trust your Bostonian friends to represent what the citizenry is thinking too. It's not a poll, so it won't tell you what percentage think what, but it's what some Americans think. The U.S. doesn't always have to be represented by what the worst possible elements think here.Quote:
I'm not arguing any differently in stating that I don't understand how the citizenry is thinking these days.
And how they are thinking might be: deeply troubled and not sure entirely what to make of it all. Shutting down an entire city is troubling. Many places still, yes still, have experienced worse terrorism than the U.S. and have not shut down whole cities. Still it was mostly voluntary, and people did leave their houses. And if you take the official line at face value, they were throwing around explosives, and engaged in shootouts. So it is crazy behavior with the potential for people to get hurt.
Meanwhile, things to fill one with dread: bomb threats were being reported all over the place, most that had nothing to do with these guys (just copycat stuff), and that were mostly fake, for instance several colleges here got bomb threats. Now there was never much suspicion it was related I don't think. But it's just adding to an overall atmosphere of crazy ("the new normal" as I called it sacrastically, seems Cuomo stole my line). Bomb threats taken seriously in multiple places, the whole city of Boston being informally shutdown, and tanks rolling around there. C-R-A-Z-Y. Stuff that's hard 1to look at without deep dread. I wouldn't want to live in America right now, oh right .... I do :)
not sure what you mean but suppose you live somewhere and you got orders that the authorites were telling everyone to stay inside, and what would you do? With forethought maybe pay no attention to it, but in the moment ....Quote:
I mean, look at how "terror" really controls the masses so easily.
I didn't even get the Alex Jones line, except referring to general paranoia, because he's not someone I follow. Then I remembered he might be one of the ones trying to do CI internet edition, with identifying the guy, and a whole bunch of stuff I never attempted (I read news to try to understand overall workings of things, not to pretend I'm a criminal investigator).Quote:
Anyway, this is something that my friends and I were mulling over. And trust me, we are no advocates of conspiracy theories, nor do we like that Alex Jones guy, or anything else.
SImply, we are looking at this from a POV of "hmm, this is strange." Because it is strange. It's strange all around.
Regardless of all that, and one could get lost in it, is this situation likely to lead to more draconian attacks on civil liberties? Yes. And that's the dread too. Not good ...
Yes. It's a violent culture.
Why is it a violent culture?
Diversity cannot be the only reason for it.
Diversity isn't any reason for violence. Maybe fear of difference, but violence is a chosen response to limbic brain based emotions -- fear, anger, vulnerability, perceived loss of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoebird
Ok, so why does the American culture seem to have a lot of fear, anger, vulnerability and perceived loss of control, and how can the culture not feel those things?