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If that's the case, how do we determine whose reality is distorted and who has access to "what is actually going on"? How do we introduce a higher level of empiricism into the debate? Who can we trust to tell us "what could be done"?Quote:
Originally Posted by creaker
There are some governments that operate by consensus.Quote:
Originally Posted by creaker
If it's just a matter of bandwidth, how do you solve the problem? Establish a Ministry of Truth to filter out all that distorted reality (was it Marx who warned against false consciousness?) so voters can apply their limited capabilities more effectively?Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Think about issues of domain sizing.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
My county of 15,000 people has immense trouble with the citizens being able to absorb and properly comment upon a whole wave of new land use/environmental regulations we are in the process of adopting. Even though we have a very involved and educated citizenry, the size of the material is so immense, and the legislation so dense, and the process so long and cumbersome that it is difficult for a normal citizen with a normal job to participate in any meaningful sense.
I am the head of the commission hearing the legislation and taking public testimony and trying to recraft it to meet the needs of the citizens and the requirements of the law, and I spend, outside of meetings, perhaps 25 hours a week doing prep work. And I have a personal team of advisors I can call upon to assist me with the legal and scientific issues.
So even at the county level, it is difficult.
At the state level, it is a horror show, and when you get to regional or national politics, I don't see how it functions at all.
I think small local governments are the only ones that have a real chance of being remotely responsive to the citizens.
I also think people need to rethink their ideas of proper time scales for policy development and implementation. Even locally, when we rush through legislation or policy to meet some arbitrary deadline, we generally end up with a poor quality product that does not honor the desires of the citizens, contains major defects, results in difficulties in implementation, and typically produces lawsuits and angry citizens.
There needs to be a more deliberatively, long-term approach taken, instead of political posturing and leaping to solve the problem-of-the-hour with A New Bill, NOW!
[QUOTE=bae;85503]I think small local governments are the only ones that have a real chance of being remotely responsive to the citizens.
[QUOTE]
I think you’re right, and I think the people who designed our political operating system felt the same way. Most decisions made by government are best made at the lowest level possible. We have only to look to the old Soviet Union to see the result of taking central planning to an extreme. I have spent most of my career in local government, and have nothing but admiration for the people willing to run for local offices or serve on boards and commissions. I don’t think the average citizen has any idea of the level of the inconvenience and abuse these people endure for the common good.
Good questions - and ones I don't have answers to.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights." Albert Einstein
Unfortunately I don't think your experience is unique in this regard, bae. Two thoughts strike me whenever this situation comes up, First, with a relatively small base to serve and, in my experience anyway, a base that is rather tight knit, how does local legislation even get to the point of being so cumbersome? Around here the commissioners get updates at every meeting on projects like this. Maybe that really is a case of the frog in the pot. Second, writing anything that involved is extremely labor intensive. Who is it that has either the time or the resources combined with the motivation to produce such tomes? If it is a County or District Attorney and/or their staff (as it is here) doing the leg work then why would a board of commissioners ever authorize such an expenditure when most jurisdictions are begging for funds?Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
Gregg -
Picture a state that has its politics and policy dominated by 2-3 very urban counties, out of the 39 counties in the whole state. And picture a state that has many very-well funded and active departments, such as Ecology and Health, that want to see "progress".
My small rural county is buried under under-fundated mandates coming from the state. We do not have the army of professional planners, or the tax base, to support us in trying to comply with state regulations, regulations written with areas of much higher population density and human impact on the landscape in mind, regulations that often outlaw our very lifestyle and land development patterns.
Further, consider the army of well-funded, well-staffed state and national-level lobbying and policy organizations that are happy to help the state craft even thicker regulations, and happy to take my county to court when they don't like what we come up with. They are also happy to provide our county some poison-grants to write the stuff.
Alan, I wish you could meet my mother. She is from Austria, and immigrated to the US in 1965 and took the citizenship in the US in 1969. For many years now she has been kicking herself for doing this.....Since she left Austria, it has become a very well to do high tax kind of country where you pay a great deal to live there but you get a very high quality of life in return for it. She would gladly sell her soul to be back there and give up control as you put it to have a better quality of life than she can here. You may say, fine, go back - unfortunately when she accepted US citizenship, Austria took it's citizenship away. She kicks herself this day fo not just getting the green card and going no further.....RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Rob, I'm sorry to hear of your mother's misery, but wonder if it is indicative of the feelings of all immigrants?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I wonder because over the last couple hundred years, the United States has been the most immigrated to country in the world. There was a reason for that. Mostly, because the United States offered opportunity that may have been lacking in some other countries. An opportunity to advance beyond the class structures imposed in other parts of the world, an opportunity to be free of civil oppression or religious dogma, an opportunity to realize their full potential, unfettered by governmental intrusion.
Those people have historically been the foundation of a thriving country, building economies, creating new opportunities and generating wealth for everyone. But, maybe we don't need them anymore. Government is taking over the role of innovators, builders and creators. It decides how our economy works, where growth is allowed and where it is not and then takes care of people rather than forcing them to take care of themselves. Maybe ours doesn't do it as well as Austria's does, but perhaps your mother just needs to give it a little more time. I'm sure we'll catch up eventually.