It's amazing that even as their physical body starts to fail, that drive to hoard remains to the end.
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It's amazing that even as their physical body starts to fail, that drive to hoard remains to the end.
I am in the process of helping to clean out a hoarders' previous home, a darling little garden cottage of about 650 sq ft. There is a long driveway, a deck, a patio, and a shed- all were stuffed full of TRASH. The house itself was stuffed with furniture- 14 pieces just in the bedroom- and literally a ton of clothing, enough dishes to serve and feed about 50 people at once, 3 refrigerators and 2 freezers full... and everything coated with a very thick layer of nicotine residue. YUCK!!
The house itself has had no maintenance, of course, for the 16 years they were there. The trees and roses are overgrown and in need of attention. There are at least 75 pots outdoors with varying degrees of dead plants in them.
An older couple lived there. The husband died of cancer, and 5 months later the wife just walked out and left it. The friend that I'm helping is planning to move in, in a couple of months when it is finally clean.
This past Monday we stacked up a pile 24 ft long, 4 ft wide, 4 ft tall for the "annual extra garbage" pickup- thankfully, free. Another truck and trailer load of beds, carpet, portable dressers, broken chairs, went to the dump the Friday before that. I took my car full of dishes to the local animal rescue thrift store. I felt bad because they were dirty, but they insisted it was fine, they were happy to get them, "people buy dishes."
We're still looking for a way to get 6 dressers, 3 tables, and 3 occasional tables back into use. Haven't been able to find an organization that will pick them up...
mschrisgo2, You are a good friend to help in all of this. Maybe as you get closer to the end, you can post on Freecycle or Craigslist for the remaining pieces like the dressers and tables that are in good condition.
Bringing a house like that back to life is no small thing.
I wonder if the husband was the hoarder and the wife was just...unable to take it anymore and walked away from the hoard.Quote:
Originally Posted by mschrisgo2
did you call your local thrift stores? Here they will come pick up with a truck. It is so nice of your to help with this mess. Very sad.
you are incredibly kind to do this for your friend
have you tried leaving the furniture on the edge of the front yard? around here that stuff is gone by morning
I had a lady addicted to QVC jewelry right up to ordering on the day she later died. I never saw so much jewelry (costume) in one place before even in a store. box upon box, trunk upon trunk of earrings and necklaces that were never once worn. Her children said she never went out so even when she was well she never wore any of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainey
I swear there is a hoarder switch in the brain.
today I was not so hot with my mom, she needed a towel, I opened the linen closet and the giant garbage bag filled with empty pill bottles fell out. I am so sick of seeing and handling this bag that is clearly trash. I gave her the towel but said I would be back later to deal with the bottles. She's screeching I can't throw them out. I think I'm not going back in and my father can cover this one.
the problem for me with hoarders is I need them to have a "why?" as in justify why you are keeping item xyz. And hoarders don't have a rationale why and I can't deal with the crazy answers when it comes to my mother. I can do it with others, with her it makes me crazy. Throw out the hundreds of pill bottles, why can't she do that? Even though I know the answer, I still get upset.
Random dehoarding narrative - I'm sorry, this is going to be long, or maybe more than one post.
so my plan for today was for my big job to be processing milk, because this is the peak of milk production, my freezer containers are full, and my fridge is backing up.
but first I needed to clean the kitchen. Which was a bigger job than I thought. And while I had the dishwasher running, I realized I couldn't find the cajeta recipe, and then I thought about just picking another job. But I decided to just put the laundry away while the dishwasher was running and make cheese instead.
and I was watching an episode of hoarders while I put the laundry away. It was an episode when the house wasn't awful, it was just FULL. No mice, no dog poop, no tiny little tunnels, no dust masks, just a lot of stuff.
and I LOOKED at my house, and I saw places where I am backsliding, putting things "here for now". So I decided instead of making cheese, I would work my way back in time.
i started with today's mail - all recycled or filed
then the flier I saved yesterday about the doll auction - recycled! I'm not going! (Unprocessed Mail prior to that is mixed into my "in box" - which sadly is an actual 12x10x18 box.)
then I started cleaning up from fair week - putting away the things I took to enter. As I moved around the house I found a book for the goodwill pile, and a plaque that says "my house is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy" - nice thought, but no. Goodwill pile! Pot I never glazed because I don't like it - trash! Dried grain stems "to make decorations" - compost! And I looked at the fair ribbons and realized that because I carried everything home in a basket, many of them were wrinkled (plan to return them is in purge thread) and I thought, well, I could press them, and then a voice in my head reminded me that I had been assured they cost pennies, and I THREW THEM ALL AWAY.
and when I was in the basement I gathered up the egg cartons that I keep not using because they aren't really structurally sound anymore, and (pausing to imagine eggs tumbling to the floor) I threw them away. And I noticed I could smell the cat box.
the cat is an indoor/outdoor cat and only uses the litter box if he gets trapped inside too long. He was a 16th birthday gift for my son. And even after my son left for college, we kept up the fiction that the cat belongs to him. Whenever he came home (about once a month) he would clean the litter box. My son graduated in May, he packed up and moved to Wisconsin, he came back for a very fast visit for my daughter's wedding in June. The litter box has not been cleaned for two months. Here is reality - my son lives in Wisconsin. He did not take the cat. The cat is now mine. I cleaned the litter box. And I cried.
and then I dumped the used cat litter in the trash can so I wouldn't change my mind and try to save the fair ribbons.
i won't be done with fair clean up until I clean out my car and take stuff to goodwill on Thursday (I have plastic necklaces from fair to take). But I moved back to the week after we went east - I cleaned the boxes off the porch. I put the jam making equipment away, I still have more to do.
i know ultralite has suggested that all my activities are a form of hoarding, but I think they are more "what I would rather be doing than cleaning up after myself/dealing with the hoard. I would still rather be doing many other things, but I am realizing I need to put the breaks on and dig. I can't just do what I want because I am externalizing the costs.
when we started homeschooling, someone asked dh how the homeschooling was going, and he said "oh, the homeschooling is going great! (Dw) loves homeschooling. The house is going to hell, but the homeschooling is great." For 12 years, the house continued going to hell. The homeschooling is over. The homeschooling has been over for 5 years. And I need to stop "getting the hell out of the house" (to the barn, the studio, my classroom, thrift shops, art shows, the garden, the mental escape of my latest project...) and just take the time to get the "hell" out of the house - for the people who live here and the people who want to come back. And my new cat.
CL: it sounds like you gained some insight today. At one point in this thread UL said people always relapse and rarely recover no matter the addiction/disorder so I did a little research and found that this is not true. my personal/professional experiences have taught me this was incorrect so I looked at some studies. For example, people that abuse alcohol are 3x's more likely to stay sober if they quit on their own versus treatment or 12 step programs, etc. People only change when the pain of staying the same is more painful then changing. Some things are harder to quit then others. For example cocaine is tougher then alcohol or pot, etc. Also people must have the cognitive ability to make that decision. So if you end up with vascular dementia from drinking too much you have damaged the part of the brain that will help you quit drinking. Also some people relapse and some don't. But for some people relapsing is a part of the process and eventually they make it. Look at how many times it takes some people to quit smoking before they finally are successful. So how bad do you want to change, do you want it or does someone else want it for you, how uncomfortable are you willing to be to achieve change, etc? It is these types of tough questions that people need to ask themselves when trying to change. Also it takes 21 straight days for something to become a habit. Announcing to the world can be helpful as it makes you fully committed to the change. If change was easy everyone would do it. It is hard but entirely within our control if we choose it. People often drop bad habits when faced with a health crisis and are afraid that it will kill them. Others keep along the same path and die younger then they should. Some addictions are worse then others. I don't think anyone probably ever died from hoarding. All these points I make are things that each person has to look deep inside of themselves and decide how is it that we want to life our lives and what are we willing to give up or not to have the life we want. Hugs:))
Yes it seemed false to me to, not like any data I had heard on addiction, that almost everyone who tries to quit an addictive substance fails. But I didn't care enough to research when random made up "facts" are just being thrown out there, as I doubted they ever had any real basis in the first place.
ANM: I don't work much in the summer so had plenty of time to do some research:)) I also enjoyed learning what was really happening in the field now.
A lot of it depends on how a culture defines recovery.
Is trying and trying to overcome considered recovery?
Or is having and keeping your house clutter free for 5+ years considered recovery?
If you relapse are you still recovering?
Is simply having a fire extinguisher and a path to the door considered recovery?
CL You made a huge amount of progress. Good for you!
I commend CL for keepin' at it! Definitely defying the odds! :)
so I decided to look into the stats on hoarding. The DSM-5 now recognizes it as it's own disorder instead of being a part of OCD. Studies have shown that the brain scans of people are different then people without the disorder when having to make decisions about junk mail/newspaper that they own, etc. 50% of hoarders have major depressive disorder and 48% have anxiety or social phobia. Hoarders tend to put feelings on objects such as a doll would get it's feelings hurt if no one bought it, etc. The people that have been most successful have a specific type of cognitive behavioral therapy designed for hoarders. If you just use the regular CBT the results show about 30% recovered. Small studies with the new technique show up to a 70% success rate. UL: different studies use different criteria as I am sure you are aware. No if someone is sober for a month and keeps relapsing l would not call that successful. You can research it if you are interested.
I have researched it. Which is why I know that complete recovery is very, very, very rare for hoarders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Actually, people have died from hoarding - the Collyer brothers being perhaps the most famous example.
and thank you for the positive reinforcement.
CL: I care about people and wish you the best. Everyone has issues that they deal with. UL: you are way too negative about many issues. You act as though there is no hope for when people have problems, etc and that is just a bunch of crap. You can choose to see the world that way and it can be your reality but it is not the reality for many others.
Since we've touched on the addiction aspect, I've been wondering if hypnosis would ever be successful for hoarders. I'm remembering that Jason Robards, a long-time alcoholic, finally got sober with hypnosis. I've also heard hypnosis can be helpful for gambling addicts. Apparently it's more successful if you have one behavior that needs to stop, vs. over-eating, i.e., they cannot give you the message to simply stop eating.
An idea for another reality show???;)
I think hoarding might be more like over eating. Even Buddhist monks have robes and bowls.
CL that is interesting you made a conmectin between the hoard and your free time.
Thats what horrifies me about hoards, the sheer amount of time it takes to deal with them. Moving them around, thinking abot them, sorting through them and agonizng over stuff in them. I Would never help someone clean out a hoard, I just do not have the patience for it.
I dont like clutter, its true, but mainly I dont like the investment of my time in messing with it. I think that activity is a waste of life energy, like Joe Dominquez urges us to assess.
The thing is - the hoard as it is now, takes up very little of my time. Shrinking it and keeping it from growing by throwing things out, recycling, donating, giving away, and putting things in their places, takes a lot of time. Cleaning around it is slower than cleaning without it, but the added cleaning time is less than the dehoarding time on a week by week basis. Perhaps there will be a tipping point for that (when the only dehoarding left is throwing away, recycling, and putting away of things used daily?).
it's like laundry - it is faster and less effort to simply wash all of your clothes in one load each week and then live out of the laundry basket than it is to sort them, launder them appropriately, and put them away neatly. But it isn't very civilized and you often look rumpled or stained. My son did this for 4 years - he had a laundry sorter with a "clean" bag and a "dirty" bag.
I just prefer to be realistic and not mislead people with false hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Think about this, people who lose weight -- I mean a lot, like 50 lbs. or more -- the vast majority of them gain it all back or more. Only about 3% of these folks keep the weight off for 5+ years.
So tell me that a 97% failure rate is a reason to be hopeful.
Right now, since hoarding is comparatively new, I think it is important to note that we don't have all the data about recovery rates.
But what we do know is that complete recovery for hoarders is very, very rare.
This may change as new treatments arise. But there are lots of treatments for weight loss, but still only about 3% of folks keep the weight off.
Again, I think we need to consider what "recovery" means.
We also need to think about partial recovery and harm reduction.
So I don't want to give someone false hope. It is not that I am being negative.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I wonder if this is a murkier assessment that one might think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
By this I mean, one has to work to earn money to buy the stuff that goes into a hoard. You don't work for money, but your husband does. So maybe you spend his life energy by hoarding.
Building an add-on to the house costs much time and money. But perhaps if you just had less stuff, you'd have more of that space to use and then not need the add-on.
Maybe you would not need to own so much land (that your husband had to work to pay for) if you had less animals and the same goes for that barn full of stuff.
I think acquiring, keeping, storing, cleaning, churning, organizing, ruminating over, etc. the hoard might be costing you more time, more brain power, and more life energy and resources than you'd assume.
It is a common "critique" of minimalists to say something like:
"All you do is think about your stuff all the time and how you can have the absolute minimal amount of it!"
Then this often smug type of person says:
"I have lots and lots of stuff, but I don't think about it. It doesn't take up much of my time at all. I don't focus on it."
But I think if you took a group of 100 minimalists and 100 hoarders and did a time usage audit on them you'd find that the minimalists spend very little time dealing with their stuff (which is why we become minimalists in the first place!) whereas stuff is what a hoarder's life is all about and they'd be spending massive amounts of time dealing with the hoard.
Oh, I'm spending massive amounts of time dealing with the hoard. Today the mail came, and I handed it out to the correct people. Then I opened my mail and saved 5 coupons for things we use (which took less than 5 minutes, so even when you add on the extra time to use each coupon, I'll be 'making' above minimum wage on the groceries, and the paint one is huge - this is one of the places where my time becomes "income" for us.)
then, and this is where the hoard part comes in, I spent two hours churning through all the papers finding every single coupon and putting the expired ones in the recycling and the good ones in a folder( and recycling some other stuff). So there - the dehoarding - is where it takes time. Otherwise it takes seconds to toss the unopened coupons into the hoard, seconds to grab the flier before I leave for the store, if I can still see it, and seconds to push the box back and forth with my foot when I sweep. Or I don't take the coupons - lost savings opportunity, no time investment.
And honestly, there would be the LEAST time investment if my kid just tossed the whole box of papers after I die. If I left behind 30 boxes of papers, it would still be Least time per paper, it's just that it would be all in a row and not my time.
(optimum time use - put recycling bin next yo mailbox and toss all mail in directly. Do not look at mail.)
if you vacuum every day, your house is cleaner than if you vacuum once a week - but the vacuuming isn't 7x faster if the carpet only has 1/7 of the dirt.
at one point, btw, I had more than 30 boxes of random paper. Now I have 1. In between getting "paid" for time spent handling paper and spending virtually no time handling paper, there is a lot of "wasted" time. But it is the same sort of wasted time as swimming laps is pool to lose weight. Yes, clearly it would be better to eat less. Assuming that works with the swimmer's metabolism. Which it may not.
also, most of the stuff in the hoard was "free" or super cheap. The feeling that I was not contributing financially and didn't WANT to be spending money unnecessarily was part of what contributed to me collecting giant piles of stuff the kids or I might need. I still have two shoeboxes of pencils that are slowly being used to refill the supply in my classroom as kids walk off with them. I have never bought a pencil. If you spend $7 on a big bag of clothes at a thrift sale (which is a fun activity, so no more life cost there than fishing) and your kid wears three things that would have cost $5 or more when they were needed, you have just cut clothing expenses in half!
btw, I do work for money now. Far fewer hours for the same poverty level total I made when I supported dh financially for the first 4.5 years we were married. - my investment in his degree seems to have paid off a lot better than your investment in yours.
and please read the original elephant thread and reach an understanding of the reasons for the addition before commenting on them. You don't have to agree with them, they just have nothing to do with the quantity of stuff in the house. If the house were literally empty, the rooms would still be too small and badly located.
i need the land to keep the people far away. The animals turn mowing (dh time) into barn chores (my time)
if if you did a time audit of hoarders and minimalists, you would see that we both spend way to much time on this website, but no one is under the impression that they are paying me to do something else.
Are you unhappy about spending massive amounts of time trying to dehoard and/or churning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I'd just not use coupons and toss them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
It seems like you feel as though your are dehoarding for everyone else, but not really for you. How true is this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Not bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Not sure what you are getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Confused here, but congrats on fewer boxes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
How often to you buy stuff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Probably! My degrees are almost worthless! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I might...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I dunno about this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Most of the time I am on here I am at work. I am not on here on the weekends!Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
UL: so in looking at studies on weight loss it states that the common folk lore since the 1950's is that only 5% of people keep the weight off for a year. Of course just like people that abuse alcohol people that overeat tend to lose weight themselves and don't use a formal program so stats are hard to get. Some studies have sent out surveys to people to ask about this and what they discovered is that many more people not in official studies have maintained weight loss, etc. Unfortunately you are a pessimistic doom and gloom person, people are their addictions, they never change, etc. Spending my life working with people professionally has taught me that this is absolutely not true for the majority. It is certainly true for some people. I have seen people overcome horrific things and not be bitter. You tell people that their is no hope-which is not true. My hope is that people in need of help seek out strong, positive people, professional help if they need it or use their inner motivation/strength to help themselves. Over and over again I have seen people be successful at beating all types of addictions and leading rewarding lives. Other people choose to be victims, hate their jobs, etc. that is their choice.
I am not saying there is no hope! hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
I am saying there is not much hope.
Big difference!
UL: it is not true that there is not much hope-that is totally wrong!!! But I am done discussing this with you because not only do I read the studies but I have seen professionally first hand the change that people make on a permanent basis. However, I will never change your mind and that is fine. I just hope that no one that needs help listens to you because it will be an excuse for people to continue with their addictions. I don't think you are a bad person but I do think your upbringing has turned you into a negative, pessimistic person. So we will have to agree to disagree:))
If this social work thing works out then I might be an addictions counselor, which will be easy because I will just tell everyone there is no hope of them getting clean!Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
yea the studies on weight loss may be less optimistic, hunger is the most basic drive (or maybe thirst). But the addiction thing from substances was just what seemed totally off to me, and I have some familiarity with it (no not because I'm an addict of course, but I have exposure). And so of course it was.Quote:
UL: so in looking at studies on weight loss it states that the common folk lore since the 1950's is that only 5% of people keep the weight off for a year. Of course just like people that abuse alcohol people that overeat tend to lose weight themselves and don't use a formal program so stats are hard to get. Some studies have sent out surveys to people to ask about this and what they discovered is that many more people not in official studies have maintained weight loss, etc.
I don't discourage anyone from doing it, they could have better luck than me and so shrug, but personally no I don't recommend professional help, professional help is mostly a waste of time and money and has a lot of negatives built right into it (like power imbalance - people might be better off with peer support - I mean the power imbalance is seriously negative when you get down to it). I would recommend both self-help and peer support (even support groups) over professional help.Quote:
My hope is that people in need of help seek out strong, positive people, professional help if they need it or use their inner motivation/strength to help themselves.
How do you do that chopping a post into little quote boxes thing?
[QUOTE=UltraliteAngler;248659]Are you unhappy about spending massive amounts of time trying to dehoard and/or churning?
Yes.
I'd just not use coupons and toss them all.
But we've established I still have time available to sell. The coupons meet my pay requirements.
It seems like you feel as though your are dehoarding for everyone else, but not really for you. How true is this?
Probably, 10% me, 90% everyone else (including my desire for positive feedback in this section)
Not bad!
But then you los any mail you actually wanted. In which case, why not just get rid of the mailbox?
Not sure what your getting at
Keeping up up with the papers is like vacuuming every day - not really worth the return compared to letting them pile in and then sorting them, say, when I'm stuck on the phone with dh mom.
How often to you buy stuff?
as rarely as possible - basically the only non consumable things I buy for myself that I don't need are the dolls and maybe every month or two a trip to the thrift store for clothes, books, studio toys and household stuff - usually under $10 total unless I buy a furniture for a specific purpose. My last thrift store trip was in early June and I bought stuff for Dd's wedding flowers and I think a cookie mold I probably have too many of. I also bought - retail - a dress and a bra for the wedding. That would be an example of something I needed.
Most of the time I am on here I am at work. I am not on here on the weekends!
that was my point.
I copy and paste the opening quote code and the ending quote code so that it is in front of and behind, respectively, each part I want to separate into snippets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
ANM: yes as I stated earlier the studies show that 3x's as many people quit alcohol on their own then do in programs. But then again I know people who tried repeatedly on their own and only quit with either professional help or a 12 step program. Some places also have sober houses where people can live as long as they want. They rent a room, follow the house rules. Some people with addictions are lonely and their friends are all users so this has greatly helped people rebuild a new life. Everyone is different. UL: sorry but SW is not the right occupation for you. It needs people that are optimistic about others and their ability to change, emphatic, not negative, etc. Clients already have had enough negativity in their lives by the time they see a SW and what they need is encouragement, etc. Hope you are kidding about the addictions counseling.
About paper, here is what I do. Maybe this is an idea that could be useful in some context.
I get my mail. The junk mail gets tossed on my way back to my apartment building. My mailbox is outside. There is a dumpster on the way.
The mail with sensitive info goes into a very small box to be shred when it is full. The bills get put on the table, then paid, then put in the shred box.
I only have to shred like once a year.
I'll try that next time.
in July so far, I bought a box of reusable canning jar lids - which are in use, a doll, and a drink that came in a souvenier cup - which I kept. I also bought a class, food, animal feed, a goat, and gasoline.
I am kidding. I want to work for the government, city or county, in a capacity that I can kick hoarders out of their homes and condemn the houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
This is what I do with the mail - if I get it out of the box I toss the obvious junk mail into the recycling on the way into the house (if someone else gets it, the recycling has to be carried back out)
dh mail (I'm pretty sure if we have any sensitive info it's in here) including bills goes upstairs on his desk. There are also locations for the mail of other people in the household who may or may not pick it up promptly.
my mail either gets read and either recycled or set aside for later or just set aside for later. Usually on the kitchen table or counter near the phone. Then somebody needs to eat or cook or read blueprints, or knocks it to the floor with the phone cord and swears, and it goes into my "in box".