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I'm not angry, I'm sad. Sad that we've come to the point where a group of people can be called out as enemies of the state and a rather considerable portion of the country see nothing wrong with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
If this continues without popular pushback, we'll be a poorer nation for it.
”oat keepers?”Quote:
Originally Posted by frugal-one
I haven’t heard that. I don’t watch Fox News as you do so I don’t know these things.
I get Bill Burr and Bill Barr mixed up. One of them is worth listening to. The other one probably is not.
I'm sad about that too. But I am not at all sure we're talking about the same group of people. If your reference includes those - many MAGAs- who promoted "pizza-gate", "own the libs" and "stop the steal", who declared, re: a rally promoting white supremacy that there are "good people" on both sides, and who shout over and over that "liberals" are the enemy of the state - then I will be heartened by your stance.Quote:
I'm not angry, I'm sad. Sad that we've come to the point where a group of people can be called out as enemies of the state and a rather considerable portion of the country see nothing wrong with it.
Maybe you're being sarcastic, but it's: oath keepers (not oat keepers): https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...p/oath-keepersQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Is that what they're calling feed bags these days? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Seriously, the Oath Keepers are one of the many "militias" readily to mobilize on their Commander in Chief's command.
No i am not being sarcastic and I dont even know what Oath keepers are but probably have vaguely heard of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Really I don’t sit with bated breath in front of the tv awaiting the latest media drop intended to get me all riled up. I haven't even wandered over to Youtube this morning to review our President’s Reich-like (the visuals, baby!) speech as jp has commanded me to do.
And my Facebook feed is all about flowers and bulldogs. We dont allow dumb politics on my feed.
I agree. Can't stand the FB politics. I just heard about Oath Keepers in passing at some point in this crazy MAGA timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
I think it's important to stay informed at this precarious time in history. That said, my top of the line ;) Chinese Hanspree TV died, so I'm not exactly plugged in, if you get my drift...
I do agree that President Biden's backdrop was cringeworthy. Who vets these things?
Thank you! And if that setting turns out to be the worst thing about the speech, then i may be ok with Daddy Joe’s rhetoric.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
All it lacked was a rousing round of Carmina Burana...Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJNp5UKRtbQ
President Biden is less than an inspired speaker, but there are undoubtedly people who needed to hear what he had to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
I saw the most astonishing live performance of Carmen Burana years ago. It is a monster production to put on because it requires an orchestra. An adult choir. A children’s choir. Vocalists. And other ensembles I can’t remember. And this production had dancers.
I think I'd enjoy that.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
typo.. haha. oath ... never heard of bill burr? And, fox news is not normally on my radar but it is big news when a high up republican dispels the current mega garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
https://news.yahoo.com/leaked-oath-k...182115979.html
I don't know anybody that does that. Since the orange one came into play things have spiraled downward with his minions following his "orders". Truly would not have believed this type of fascism would take hold, but it has.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
What defines a “MAGA Republican”, exactly? Biden seemed to be saying it’s anyone who is pro-life or deficit-unfriendly. Is it just a generic term like “deplorable”?
The operational definition I use is:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
- thinks the 2020 election was "stolen" and refuses to accept the result
- a very Know Nothing-ist nativism/jingoism/populism
- pushing policies to punish/score points on "the other"
- not interested in governance
- tends to be associated with various wack-a-doodle conspiracy theories
Marjorie Taylor Greene would be the poster-child.
Besides bae's list around me I see MAGA republicans who believe we are a Christian country and everything would be much better if Christian prayers were said in public schools.
Yeah--that's an integral part of the growing tend toward fascism/authoritarianism--beating the population over the head with a perverse version of the Christian religion, including insisting that the Founding Fathers were staunch believers, which was far from the truth--which is why separation of church and state should be iron clad.Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere
And I bet "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is also popular with that bunch.
Having finished my homework assigned by JP, I will now give my brief report on President Biden’s speech in front of Independence Hall in Philadelphia.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I thought it was… OK. It was, generally, a “Rah Rah America” speech and that is nice.
I do not like the fact that he chose to dress down only one “extreme “ ideological group as disrupting America when there are others. And he got it really wrong when he said MAGA peeps believe the U.S. is “carnage, darkness, and despair.” Based on regular interaction with you all on this website, I think Rob and JP and others have the same opinion. I think that Daddy Joe got that way wrong. It’s more likely he didn’t want to call out the people in his own camp because well, he wants them to vote in November. Let’s not insult them.
At least he defined MAGA people and I believe I do not fit that definition so I will not be hauled off to the Gulag/have my Instagram account blocked for wrongthink.
Then there was lots of blah blah blah about what he has accomplished, and that’s fine, he gets to do that because he is the President (and which is why I don’t listen to these speeches.) We have the best economy now of first world places so I guess that’s good. Certainly employment is strong. He said we were coming out of the “darkness of Covid, Charlottesville, gun violence and insurrection” to see the light. Ummm, ok. I do not believe the criminals in my old neighborhood got that memo about gun violence but who am I to question the President.
So that is my report. I cannot give this speech a letter grade because I seldom listen to Presidential speeches so I don’t have grading criteria.
"So that is my report. I cannot give this speech a letter grade because I seldom listen to Presidential speeches so I don’t have grading criteria."
I never listen to presidential speeches, either; I figure I'll catch the highlights on the news.
Most speeches are past my bedtime.
Antifa and Black Lives Matter--the usual groups the right cites as scary and threatening--are anything but. If Antifa were actually a thing, I'd join up, because I definitely hate fascism. And BLM exists to highlight and protest police brutality. They aren't forming militias, holding rallies exhorting people to rise up against the government, spreading propaganda and lies about a "deep state," and systematically choosing politicians to reinforce this anti-American agenda. They don't have stooges like Lindsey Graham predicting/encouraging violence if the DOJ dares to prosecute Trump for withholding state documents. MAGA presents a clear and immediate danger to our democracy, and it's MAGA followers President Biden referenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Scary left-wing groups barely register on lists of domestic terrorists, they're basically non-existent at this time.
"Left-wing terrorists, according to the FBI, have a revolutionary socialist agenda, and present themselves as protectors of the populace against the alienating effects of capitalism and U.S. imperialism. Notable early participants in left-wing terrorism were various socialist and anarchist groups from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Leon Czolgocz, who shot President William McKinley in 1901, embraced anarchist beliefs, though no anarchist group would accept him for membership." (faqs.org)
Sigh. I guess the looting, burning, and murdering by BLM enthusiasts doesn't really happen in St. louis.I am mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
NOT
Jane you really are physically far removed from the bullshit. It DOES happen. The leftie perps are idealogoically united if not organizationally united although I see a certain amount of organization, especially when the Ferguson bullshit hit. Now THAT debacle used social media communications to organize plans of action and timetables. Even the cops are in on it, standing back to let the hoards run rampant through my city. All this takes place less than a mile from my house.
Don’t tell me there are no “scary left wing groups.” It is out of control rioting from my point of view. You don’t have to see it, and good for you out there in leafy suburbia land.
I'm not here--at all--to make excuses for the small percentage of people at BLM protests who committed crimes, and I won't argue with you about criminals in St. Louis who take advantage of protests to shoot up the place, but you're right--these don't represent an organized, coordinated, well-funded movement to take over the country like the white nationalists have coalesced into in recent years.
I wouldn't characterize the MAGA crowd as wallowing in "carnage, darkness, and despair," I see them awash in belligerence, narrow-mindedness, and paranoia. So I think his speechwriter could have done better.
Personally, I have some trepidation about the future (I finally understand how Hitler rose to power), but I'm old and can hunker with the best of them. It's up to the generations behind us to pull in the reins and steer us back to a steady democratic course.
I don’t see BLM as a terrorist organization, despite the impressive level of destruction they have contributed. They are more in the way of a 1960s-1970s grift, shaking down contributions and mau-mauing the flak catchers for the material benefit of the leadership.
They’ve acquired some pricey real estate in the name of social justice. One leader rejected the idea of financial disclosure forms as “triggering” and “unsafe”. There are various civil suits and AG inquiries ongoing. There may be a few committed ideologues in the mix, but I see them as in a different category from the tiki torch guys.
But I don’t see the tiki torch guys as a well organized and funded conspiracy either. I think Biden’s poorly lit rant was merely an attempt at borking his opposition. I see clowns on both sides, not a nascent American Reich.
The tiki torch guys are a small part of a much larger developing picture.
I wish I shared your rosy outlook that this trend toward nationalism and authoritarianism is harmless and transitory. But I fear that those who promote Trumpism depend on the passivity of the populace to achieve their ends.
oh I absolutely see a governmental trend towards authoritarianism, but if you don’t see it on all political sides then that’s a huge part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
You might be surprised to find that I do see authoritarian tendencies on the left--especially in the medical, nutritional, and academic fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
And I’m sad that a group of hypothetically rational people don’t see the threat that maga poses to this country. If it continues without anyone holding them to account we’ll not just be a poorer nation but we won’t be a nation at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Thank you for your book report. Overall I thought I was well done and I will grant you a B+. The only reason I’m not giving an A is because I would have appreciated more detail on who you think it is in energetic Joe’s party who needs to be called out and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
As one who declines the invitation to panic over the newly branded “MAGA” threat, I would like to point out all the prosecutions of the capital rioters, the rejection of the attempt to reinterpret the 12th Amendment, the numerous unsuccessful lawsuits looking to change election results and the raid on Trumps property in Florida. Somebody seems to be holding somebody accountable. If there is a vast right wing conspiracy, they certainly aren’t very effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
In recent days, I’ve seen “MAGA” used to refer to Trump and his followers, various fringe nutcases, the pro-life movement and Wall Street. Democrats are promoting this new brand to the point of providing tens of millions of dollars to MAGA candidates. Does that sound like people genuinely concerned about a deadly threat?
We’ve become a nation of drama queens. At least in the chattering spaces of media.
It seems to routinely come up that, in spite of multiple investigations, they really cannot prove Trump of illegal activities (yet). I have wondered whether us common folk without access to an army of expensive lawyers would even come close to being so lucky in a similar situation. He and his legal team are masters of evasion through delays, appeals, and technicalities available only to the elite of position or wealth. I think the blind hand of justice is a myth for many of us relative to the upper crust. There are legal issues, then there are moral or ethical violations that are not as clearly defined and which seem acceptable to his base.
I’ll believe that people are being held to account when we start seeing the people who planned a multi-pronged plot to overturn the election get indicted. So far only traitorous little foot soldiers have been held accountable. The big leaders, including multiple traitorous senators who attempted to get fraudulent slates of electors from their states into the electoral college, have so far not suffered any consequences for their actions.
How far back are you willing to go in your desired purge and prosecution of members of congress? 2016? 2012? 2008? 2004? 2000? or even further? I think you'll find some degree of shenanigans involving elector certifications during just about every national election. Maybe you'd have to limit your desired prosecutions and guaranteed convictions to those folks who are still alive?Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
Point me to any other election in our lifetime where even a fraction of the members of congress attempted to thwart the electoral vote count. Literally half the Republican caucus did so this time around. I’m also curious about the other times when senators attempted to bring spayed of BS fake electors into the process. Or a time when a president who lost called state attorneys general and ordered them to ‘find me 11,800 votes’. Or when a failed sad sack sore loser president filed anywhere close to 60 BS lawsuits claiming fictitious voter fraud. Bonus points if you can point me to where all of the above happened in one single presidential election.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
He recently filed--it was just thrown out--a case accusing Hillary Clinton of interfering with the election she lost. I forget the particulars, but he is a pathetic little man.
In a roundabout way I hope the more egregious politicians in America are accelerating a process of decay that is helping to create fertile soils for the next era of civilization, one that places less importance on capitalism and more on the coexistence of humanity and nature. It would be a shame if precious life billions of years in the making was snuffed out within a few hundred or thousand years because of an apex life form with god-like powers but lacking god-like wisdom.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Just shy of my lifetime ... The Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party lost out to electors picked in rigged, racist Democratic Party primaries. Four years before that voter fraud in Illinois helped Kennedy win the presidency.
JP, depending how old you are you could start there, with your beloved Democrats.