How many more?

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Originally Posted by catherine

I'm going to side with LDAHL in this one. I don't think wealth is a zero-sum game. I'm not against individuals being wealthy. I'm not even against individuals being EXTREMELY wealthy. I'm against an economic system without the necessary checks and balances to ensure that the highest percentage of the population have equal say in how the government is run and an equal opportunity for success. This requires a more even distribution of wealth that what we have now.

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The planet is finite.

And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?

Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?

I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

I don't see it as a simplistic zero-sum game.

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How you see it may not matter. It still could be a zero-sum game. I am not saying it is or it isn't. But I am still open to the idea that it is.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

If bae were to scuttle his fleet of yachts tomorrow, it wouldn't improve the situation of the poor in South Sudan.

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I am not so sure that is true. Where did the metals get mined for those yachts? Where did the wood come from? The plastics to equip them? Where did the labor come from and under what kind of conditions? When you start asking and answering these questions you see a world-wide exploitation of people and the earth.

So the South Sudanese begin to look a little less distant.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

The planet is finite.

And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?

Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?

I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.

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The planet may be finite but human ingenuity is considerably less so. If bae had made his money strip-mining or human trafficking, you might have a point, but your assumption that wealth flows from necessarily evil sources or practices seems fairly shallow to me.

I would say human ingenuity is the reason we're running headlong into the finite-ness of the planet so quickly.

Follow the money, LD. You will find exploitation of humans and environmental destruction along that path at every step.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

I am not so sure that is true. Where did the metals get mined for those yachts? Where did the wood come from? The plastics to equip them? Where did the labor come from and under what kind of conditions? When you start asking and answering these questions you see a world-wide exploitation of people and the earth.

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Unless all that was accomplished with stolen materials and slave labor, I would call that beneficial economic activity transacted between willing buyers and sellers.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Unless all that was accomplished with stolen materials and slave labor, I would call that beneficial economic activity transacted between willing buyers and sellers.

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All? What about some? And define slave labor.

Have you seen the documentary True Cost?

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

The planet is finite.

And would your Jesus condone owning a fleet of private jets, an army of yachts, vast swaths of land all over the world, oil wells, coal mines, etc.?

Also: How does a person get extremely wealthy? What do they do to accrue that kind of wealth?

I am asking you to think deeper. You are still in the shallows.

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I think that when we start looking at people's gains as our loss, it's not helpful. It's better to just look at the big picture and work on creating a society that works for most of us. Would I be thrilled if values worldwide shifted and all of a sudden the dominant attraction to resource-sucking stuff was replaced by a mass desire for a simple, ecologically regenerative lifestyle? Of course I would! But until we have a complete breakdown of civilization, there will always be some people who are wealthier and some people who are poorer. Even "my" Jesus said "the poor will be always with us." At the same time I agree with almost everything in Pope Francis's encyclical on the environment. I agree with you that care for the environment and unfettered capitalism are at cross purposes. But who am I to say who can buy a yacht and who can built a chain of hotels and who host opulent parties and who can't?

My answer comes from economic standpoint--not an ethical or environmental one. From a political perspective, when the majority of the wealth is in the hands of the few, that's just a recipe for disaster, because he who has the money has the power, and that doesn't go unnoticed by the have-nots. If you look at history, things don't typically bode well for the 1%ers when the balance of power shifts into the hands of just a few.

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Originally Posted by catherine

I think that when we start looking at people's gains as our loss, it's not helpful.

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To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"

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Originally Posted by catherine

Even "my" Jesus said "the poor will be always with us."

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Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"

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I didn't communicate properly. You know that I am against this type of gross injustice, and that exactly what I said when I talked about proper checks and balances in a capitalistic society. What I am saying is that if YOU, UA, decided to buy a huge mansion and you also bought a huge lake in Ohio so you could fish from your Boston Whaler, if I say your gain is my loss while I, catherine, sit here poor in New Jersey, I'm just sounding jealous and unreasonable. That's all I meant. Sure you can reduce all production and consumption to exploitation --hey, I've read all of Derrick Jensen's books and I agree with much of them--but for the sake of our argument here, I think it's too simplistic.

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Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.

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This has absolutely nothing to do with exploitation OR the prosperity gospel. It's about the wealthy NOT noticing the poor and evading their responsibility to the poor and needy. He said the poor will be always among us, and, it's on us, individually and corporately, to help them.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

To whom? Tell that to the poor folks of West Virginia when the coal barons ravaged the place. Tell that to the many Africans exploited for precious metals, diamonds, and oil. Tell that to the pregnant Bangladeshi woman slaving away in a sweatshop 12 hours a day everyday. Say to her: "Don't look at the corporate oligarchs' gains as your loss. It is not helpful!"



Excellent rationale for exploitation! Spread the "prosperity gospel!" Jesus wants you to be rich -- and don't worry about the poor. Maybe throw them a crumb or two.

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UL, your words are nothing new or interesting. It would be nice to be relieved of your lecturing ways for a while. Perhaps you could give us a rest and hop on over to another site for a bit.