I suppose you're right. Some people don't think that a sitting present attempting to extort an ally into helping with his reelection effort by holding up military aid that country needs is a particularly big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
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I suppose you're right. Some people don't think that a sitting present attempting to extort an ally into helping with his reelection effort by holding up military aid that country needs is a particularly big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
I am of the school of thought that no matter how bad things are they can always get worse. I don’t happen to think it’s outside the realm of possibility that an equally dreadful or worse alternative to Trump may emerge from the Democrat’s national convention.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
If the Democrat is reasonably superior to Trump, I will vote for that candidate.
If the Democrat is clearly worse, I will hold my nose and vote for Trump.
If the two choices seem about equally awful, I will do what I did last time and vote Libertarian.
I try not to allow moralistic fervor to interfere with rational calculation.
Especially once that pesky "high crimes and misdemeanors" wording from the constitution has been rendered meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
I don’t think things could get any worse so nothing could persuade me to vote for the orange moron.
I think the problem with putting a veneer of legal phrasing on what is essentially a political crusade that commenced prior to the last inauguration is that people tend to begin believing their own propaganda in terms of who is being stonily objective and who is grinding an axe. It tends to trivialize the process down to another item in the partisan bag of tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
Has it's meaning changed since 1998 when the House Judiciary Committee voted along party lines on President Clinton's articles of impeachment? Or maybe since 1999 when every Senate Democrat voted 'Not Guilty' on each of the two articles coming out of the House?Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
That seemed to be a pretty partisan trial so I think justice was best served by an acquittal. I think the same applies this time, don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
I'm impressed at how consistently republicans have avoided trying to actually defend trump's (admittedly indefensible) actions and have stuck with the "it's just a partisan witchhunt" defense.
It only works because the Democrats jumped the gun and started working on impeachment before he actually assumed the office, 'partisan witch hunt' just seems to fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
Alan, I can accept that you are a Conservative and support Trump. Such is indeed your right and you owe no one any justification for your choice here. Given all the proceeding, and given that you.support Trump, here's an honest, non-snarky question for you. How do you justify Trump's now infamous call with the President of the Ukraine? I find it utterly fascinating that Conservatives are willing to overlook this BOTOH are OK with holding citizenship in the one country on this planet that locks up more of it's citizens than any other. My point here is even application of the standard. Trump breaks the law? There need to be consequences otherwise the Constitution is but toilet paper. Seriously. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
What makes you think that?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I see a recent poll indicates 50% of voters now favor impeachment. Up from 49% in October. All the sturming and dranging on both sides of the issue doesn’t seem to have had much impact.
Is the whole thing being tuned out by most Americans?
Half of Americans favoring impeachment is no small matter. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
You are very quick to defend Trump. As quick as I am to engage in anti police brutality activism. Seriously. If you are not a Conservative my vote is that you deserve an academy award for your performance. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
So we should ignore the facts that have come out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
falling into party lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
That’s not all that different from a year or three years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
What is a small thing is the number of voters influenced by the House hearings. Positions for the great majority of voters seem not to have budged much, despite the relentless media drumbeat. When the Senate stages it’s production, it seems unlikely we will see much movement in the opposite direction.
This seems to be a mantra of Conservatives, at least from what I am seeing in Urban Arizona. It's all about granting Donald Trump a free pass while ignoring his transgressions.....but yet hypocritically supporting "law and order"which locks up a higher percentage of American citizens than any other country on the Earth locks up their citizens. I honestly don't understand how Conservatives can look at themselves in the mirror and live with themselves and their hypocracy (sp?) but then I've been lower income for long enough in my life to understand that much of Conservatism doesn't work unless you are upper income.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
At least the rest of the world is seeing America as it really is via the Trump Presidency and more and more of the world will hopefully kick the American way to the curb. This last does give me some hope. Rob
Likely, yes, IL, but look at it this way. Would you want to be President if half the country supported your being kicked to the curb? RobQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
I don't think I've ever defended Trump, personally I think he's an ass. What I will defend is fairness and I'll always attempt to counter the goofy stuff some of you come up with. And as an aside, being conservative is apparently an ideology beyond your reckoning. It has nothing to do with supporting a particular politician.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Republicans have long ago abdicated the "law and order" position, IMO. Unless it involves making money off of for-profit prisons, or punishing other people's transgressions. They've flouted the rule of law from beginning to end where Trump's concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I wish our current President was a conservative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
But then maybe not because – what if he was an ass and also conservative, i.e. steering the ship according to conservative principles? But then, if he was doing that he wouldn’t be an ass. So I talked myself out of this idea.
In your lifetime, what Republican President haven't you and Democrats at large wanted to kick to the curb?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Barak Obama was elected with only 51% of the vote, one more percentage point.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
Should he have turned down the presidency on that basis?
obama’s 12th quarter approval rating on the Gallup poll is the same as President Trump’s 12 quarter approval rating: 43%
https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/...ald-trump.aspx
Should Republicans have been scouring the earth to find reasons to impeach President Obama?
Numbers can be a problem if you don’t relate them to something to provide meaning.
I actually liked Reagan when I was very young until I understood how evil his policies were for the Underclass. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Thank You, Alan. I can respect you for the fact that you are willing to publicly admit that Donald J Trump is an ass. Just curious, what is about him and/or his actions that made that clear to you? RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
He thinks more of himself than Obama did, and I didn't think that was possible. But remember, being an ass doesn't mean everything he does is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
To be fair, conservatives argue a lot among themselves about what it means to be a conservative. You find a lot of lively debates in the pages of National Review about various aspects of what the proper conservative position should be on any number of issues. They ran an “Against Trump” issue back before the last election that outlined a number of objections to calling him a conservative.
I have found it more difficult in recent years to think of the GOP as a purely Conservative party. They seem to be more like what the Democrats have been since Jackson: more a collection of interest groups and ethnic identity groups than a party built around a cohesive political philosophy.
But I suppose the other side is going through much the same thing, with the socialist wing contesting with the “moderates” for control. They also need to reconcile all those race/gender/class-based ideologies and a virulent cancel culture.
I don’t think it’s easy for anyone right now except the outrage addicts on both sides.
Going back through my lifetime:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Eisenhower, I was too young to judge at the time, but I would have liked him. He wasn't afraid to raise taxes and try to balance the budget, unlike other Republicans, and he coined the term military-industrial complex in order to warn us about its dangers--a warning we have yet to heed and therefore we do, in fact suffer under its undue influence half a century later.
Nixon--well, he kicked himself to the curb
Reagan--He was charming and witty as he sold us on the myth of trickle-down economics. I didn't want to kick him to the curb, despite his oversight of the ballooning of the national debt. At least I believe he was a fundamentally decent human being.
Bush 41--Again, he didn't represent my politics, but Democrats didn't have to kick him to the curb--- he did himself in by the end of his first term
Bush 43--Well, what can I say about a man who started a war under false pretenses and allowed the financial industry to build a house of cards that took a big chunk of prosperity and stability right out of the back end of the early years of the millennium. But even with that said, he didn't come across as pathological.
So, for me, Trump really is the one who's the scariest. I find CNN's relentless mission to get rid of him before 2020 very tiresome, and the Democrats mission to impeach him misguided, but I can't say I wouldn't love to see him kicked to the curb.
ETA: I really would have liked Teddy Roosevelt. He was a progressive Republican, and his love for nature and his achievements as a conservationist were directly in contrast to the policies of our president who would sell out the whole planet for 30 pieces of silver.
It's interesting to me how different people can have such widely divergent takes. I didn't perceive Obama as thinking a lot of himself....I saw a man with his ego in check for the most part. I don't see such in Donald J Trump. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Obama was confident.
I wonder if the GOP realizes that it's saving pennies but spending dollars by refusing to impeach? People I have spoken to in my zip code say they will not forgive it forget a GOP acquittal. Neither will I. How this helps the GOP I don't understand. Were it only the 85006 who sees it this way it would be no big deal - problem is, this take here is far from being isolated. The GOP would be best served by impeaching and letting Pence take the Presidency. Though I still do worry about Trump supporter violence/domestic terrorism and about economic fallout as a result thereof. These are the consequences if voting in incompetence to this level.....will America learn from this fiasco? Stay tuned....Rob
Agreed. Confident but not arrogant/cocky like 45 is. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry
Not if one believes this study.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDAHL
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/u...gtype=Homepage
Can you give us a synopsis, I'm too cheap to get behind the paywall.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
TLDR. people consider impeachment more important than any of the other things they consider important.
wow do people even follow the news, they do know the UN climate conference completely failed right, by like everyone's admission. No impeachment only helps if it gets rid of Trump somehow, otherwise, it matters not.Quote:
TLDR. people consider impeachment more important than any of the other things they consider important.
The poll may be limited to what congress can actually do though, as long as Trump is president, that's not much. I mean one could prioritize Medicare For All for instance all they want, but that's not going anywhere under Trump. So the poll seems to suffer from having basically confused premises, or at least that's how it is presented: you can't combine a set of policies that exist if Trump is president (which is the only case in which impeachment is relevant) with a set of policies that could exist only if he is not president (which is the only context in which many other priorities are relevant). Which hypothetical are we even asking about? Because they don't overlap in reality. One of these things is not like the other ...
The point of the poll was that whether you want impeachment to succeed or fail doesn’t matter. Most people care more about THAT then anything else. In other words republicans care more that impeachment fails than anything else and democrats care that it succeeds more than anything else.
I think if any other president in US history had had to admit that their charity was a total fraud and had to pay a $2m fine the news about it would have been the cause of screaming headlines for months and the opposing party would have been calling for their resignation over this one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
But because trump is so absurdly corrupt in everything he does this news was basically about as interesting as Davis Muir saying ‘and today was Tuesday.’ It came and went without a whiff of shock or outrage from anyone on either side of the aisle.
Ok. I’m convinced. The latest republican argument finally got to me. Apparently newt gingrinch is worried that impeachment will ruin people’s christmases. I have to admit, it’s about the best, and most logical, reason anyone has put forward for why the dude shouldn’t be impeached and removed.
https://americanindependent.com/impe...-bill-clinton/
The point wasn’t that voters don’t care one way or another. The point was that the House hearings have done little to change minds on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1