Oh, he's gone way past annoying. He pegged the annoying meter long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
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Oh, he's gone way past annoying. He pegged the annoying meter long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1
I think having Muslim boys shake the hands of both male and female teachers is a small thing. The rigid separation of the sexes in that culture, enforced from a young age, is what I think has contributed to the continuous oppression of women there.
Having them perform this small gesture is showing them that in Swiss society, where they now live, men and women are equal.
I wonder what percentage of Muslims this actually affects in Switzerland? Just like any other religion people say they are part of, there's a wide variation of what people do/don't do. Sizable number of Christians in this country would not have their kids go to a school, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainey
Yep. In ANY religion, it is a U-shaped curve. There are Reformed and Ultraconservative and everyone in between. In addition, add tribal or cultural norms that have nothing to do with the religion at all.
Is it a "small thing" to force people to do something they don't want to for no better reason than to police greater conformity to some norm the social engineers have deemed desirable? Should governments regulate articles of clothing or styles of grooming to impose a template of what a citizen should be?
You are punishing their thoughts with your philosophy. Thought police. That is a serious, serious, thing. Orthodox Jewish women don't shake the hands with men. Would you require that same attitude-adjustment of them in Swiss society?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainey
Forcing children to shake hands if their parents teach them not to do that seems silly to me. I think we as a society should save the "forcing against their will" for the very few things that have been demonstrated as necessary for public safety.
Frankly, I'd be happy to see the end of religions in general, but that aside...what's next, forced hugging? (Shudder) I agree with Iris Lily's last paragraph, completely.
Forcing people to touch....bad! Bowing, showing respect with a smile and an introduction...no need at all for forced physical contact.
I also think it's strange to force a handshake. How is that enforced? If I extend my hand to a Muslim boy and he doesn't accept the gesture, do I call the police? Would I call the police? Certainly not.
In terms of co-ed swimming, I also side with the Muslims. They should be free to decide for themselves the conditions in which they prefer to swim. If it's a swim class in school, they should be permitted to opt out if it's against their religion.
It's hard to encourage enculturation--definitely grey areas exist. Do we make Spanish-speaking immigrants speak English? Do we make everyone eat hot dogs and hamburgers to prove they're American? I understand that the more we can all feel we're part of the same tribe the better off we all are, but I don't think these kinds of laws are going to help do that.
I have some serious concerns about forcing people to do physical things that are outside their negotiated boundaries of consent and be denied agency over their own bodies. *Especially* when the people are children. The whole concept makes me wince.Quote:
Originally Posted by nswef