Protesting is so good for the soul.....

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Originally Posted by oldhat

Someone is going to have to explain to me--anti-corporatist socialist that I am--why everyone is in such a lather over this. I'm not up on every detail of what happened, but isn't it true that this guy refused a lawful order to leave the plane? If he felt he was being wronged, he could have hired a lawyer and sued the airline--indeed, I would have applauded him for doing so. It's also true that United's PR people screwed the pooch in a big way, and that Chicago cops are mostly thugs (I have personally witnessed their thuggery). But other than that, why all the fuss?

I'm guessing that this has more to do with air travel having become such a nightmare of psychological stress and physical discomfort. The incident itself was less important than its acting as a trigger for an outpouring of public rage.

Meanwhile, there are currently about a dozen major scandals brewing in Trumpland, any one of which would under Obama have kept the media in hysterics for weeks. And Orange Hitler has discovered that the quickest way to boost your popularity ratings is to bomb some furriners, giving cable news a nice supply of war porn.

I'm afraid the media is reverting to form.

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I have a little trouble buying your assertion that the media is kinder to Trump than it was to Obama.

I think your theory of why the United incident has resonated so broadly is absolutely correct. Especially with the imagery that makes it so meme-able.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Au contraire. I will never forget and for the remainder of my life will tell the truth about United Airlines when the opportunity presents itself, hopefully impacting their balance sheet even if in a very small way. I will also be active against the United Airlines brand the remainder of my life via social media. Human rights and human dignity are worth that. Rob

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So, there is no redemption possible in Rob's World?

The problem is that people are constantly overreacting to everything that happens to them. It is a good thing it was filmed so there is evidence of what happened. People were yelling at the cops to stop but to physically intervene would have meant to be hurt too. The victim behaved badly too. United provides lots of jobs so it would be bad if they went under. Also it was one of their small partners that did this so they need some training too.

What happened to the other 3?

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Please accept my assurance that there is no humour in this situation in the 85006, there is no humour here for Dr. Dao, and there is currently no humour for the United Airlines brand given the PR nightmare they face that will not go away, and given the huge multi-million dollar lawsuit settlement they will have to pay out given their basic lack of concern for basic human rights and basic human dignity.

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Your beginning to sound Trump like (HUGE). I didn't realize it was a human right to fly.>8)

Better go talk to your deity about that, and tell those people at the airport, that they need to donate their time, as it is a human right, so they shouldn't be making money off of it, either.:treadmill:

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Originally Posted by oldhat

Someone is going to have to explain to me--anti-corporatist socialist that I am--why everyone is in such a lather over this. I'm not up on every detail of what happened, but isn't it true that this guy refused a lawful order to leave the plane? If he felt he was being wronged, he could have hired a lawyer and sued the airline--

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He refused an order, now whether it was lawful or not, to be honest should be up to a court to decide. It was a mistake to tell the cops no, as they have the right to use force for their safety and to get the job done. Lawful gets decided after the fact in a court. (law part, verses enforcement parts) Besides the lawsuit against the airlines, I expect he has a criminal court appearance now for failure to comply, which could end up placing him on the government no fly list.

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Originally Posted by dmc

What happened to the other 3?

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Good question. If they know the airlines may need x number of seats, then why don't they reserve some seats on the plane.

Just heard on the news tonight that United now will reserve seats for crew in this situation at least one hour before a flight.

Many airlines around the world have a policy of overbooking flights, hoping that no-shows and offers of cash/hotels will ensure the problem disappears! I know most British airlines do it.

Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.

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Originally Posted by bae

Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.

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You can sometimes improve the odds of that happening by treating gate personnel like human beings.

I used to occasionally get moved to first class when I traveled in uniform; which felt odd after getting spat at in college ROTC. Once, in an airport lounge a guy bought a round so he could tell me all about how the Air Force kept dropping bombs on him in Vietnam. I said we must have had our reasons, but bought him a drink by way of compensation, and we parted on friendly terms.

Here's a great article about the "between the lines" of this incident written by a pilot's wife

https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.c...t-flight-3411/

While the action of the security team (who were NOT United employees BTW) seem extreme, the article does help explain what led to it.

I admit to being a bit of an apologist for United. I just received my million mile card from them. Rob, I understand the anger and the whole "evil corporation" thing, but I just don't see United as evil. They completely botched the PR in this incidence, but to be honest, if I were to protest a corporation for wrong-doing, there would be several other companies in line before United.

(But, in line with the topic, I signed up for the Climate March on Washington on April 29 and I'm looking forward to it, and I'm glad they won't be checking my credentials for my in-flight carbon footprint because I might get hung from the Washington monument.)

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Originally Posted by bae

So, there is no redemption possible in Rob's World?

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I and the other protesters of the 85006 (actually to be fair, protesters came from all over the Valley, and not just my zip code) are not seeing behavior from United Airlines that would in any way justify the smallest chance at redemption. Best thing that could happen now is for the brand to go belly up and sell their planes to competitors for pennies on the dollar. I can't see justice being served any other way due to the actions of the United Airlines Brand which not only speak louder than words but scream from rooftops and can be heard from thousands of miles away - even in China there is much anger regarding the United Airlines Brand, and I'm very pleased and grateful to see this. Rob

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Originally Posted by bae

Iceland Air has bumped me every single leg of this trip so far. To First Class. It's very odd- they have called me up to the counter after I am checked at in, usually just a few minutes before boarding. My only theory is that they had an empty 1st class seat, and throw it at me because they are nice people. I performed an emergency in-air medical intervention on one of their flights in Feb, perhaps they flagged me? Anyways, they are now my favorite airline.

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I flew Iceland Air for my trip to Europe when I was 20 that my family in Austria paid for. I remember liking them - they were generous with food and beverage, too - but this was 30 years ago this May that I flew them. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

I and the other protesters of the 85006 (actually to be fair, protesters came from all over the Valley, and not just my zip code) are not seeing behavior from United Airlines that would in any way justify the smallest chance at redemption. Best thing that could happen now is for the brand to go belly up and sell their planes to competitors for pennies on the dollar. I can't see justice being served any other way due to the actions of the United Airlines Brand which not only speak louder than words but scream from rooftops and can be heard from thousands of miles away - even in China there is much anger regarding the United Airlines Brand, and I'm very pleased and grateful to see this. Rob

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What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.

United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.

I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?

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Originally Posted by dmc

What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.

United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.

I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?

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I, too, am surprised that the OP isn't framing this as another police brutality incident. The airport police, the higher ups including Mayor Ram, and ultimately the taxpayers should pay for this outrage.Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by catherine

Here's a great article about the "between the lines" of this incident written by a pilot's wife

https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.c...t-flight-3411/

While the action of the security team (who were NOT United employees BTW) seem extreme, the article does help explain what led to it.

I admit to being a bit of an apologist for United. I just received my million mile card from them. Rob, I understand the anger and the whole "evil corporation" thing, but I just don't see United as evil. They completely botched the PR in this incidence, but to be honest, if I were to protest a corporation for wrong-doing, there would be several other companies in line before United.

(But, in line with the topic, I signed up for the Climate March on Washington on April 29 and I'm looking forward to it, and I'm glad they won't be checking my credentials for my in-flight carbon footprint because I might get hung from the Washington monument.)

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The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.

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Originally Posted by dmc

What happened to the other 3?

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Presumably they grudgingly accepted the "offer". Personally i wouldnt really call it an offer if the alternative to not accepting it is having the government carry out violence against you.

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Originally Posted by jp1

The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.

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I do agree with that. I few hundred lousy bucks would have saved them a ton of money lost in angry customers.

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Originally Posted by jp1

The problem with her perspective is that she ignored the one thing United could have done to solve the problem without resorting to the threat of government violence (and follow through of that threat) to enforce a civil contract. Bump up the offer to the point that someone will accept. If $800 flight credot doesnt cut it maybe $1000 cash or $1500 cash will. As onerously one sided as united's contract is with its customers it should be their duty to offer whatever it takes to get volunteers if they need to bump people. Taking the cheap way out that they did is about as anti-capitalist as can be.

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You might want to go back and reread her.
There are clauses in that contract, that are federally regulated rules (getting the flight crew to their plane to not delay air traffic). They enforced the contract, via a clause they have a legal argument and responsibility to use. If they didn't, and they delayed too long, then they are in violation of federal law.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

You might want to go back and reread her.
There are clauses in that contract, that are federally regulated rules (getting the flight crew to their plane to not delay air traffic). They enforced the contract, via a clause they have a legal argument and responsibility to use. If they didn't, and they delayed too long, then they are in violation of federal law.

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All the more reason to bump up the offer and get someone to volunteer so that they could get on with flying the plane. Government force isnt the right way to get your customers to do something. Offering up enough money is.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-unite...134223391.html

And as this article points out, the rules for bumping a passenger PRIOr TO BOARDING are dufferent from the rules allowing them to deplane someone who has legitimately been boarded. Untied appears to have breached their own toghtly worded contract of carriage when they did this.

It is right before 6PM now and I am about to leave for the airport in Phoenix to protest United Airlines with my husband (how did I get so lucky to end up with a man who understands???) and some other protesters from the 85006 including my cousin who I co-own a house with in the 85006 with and who is a frequent business traveller. All I can say tonight is that I am unable to respond to other posts regarding my protesting activity but I don't mean to ignore you - I will get back to you, especially to Float On, who raised some interesting points. Right now I am off to the airport to protest against the United Airlines brand with my husband and other protesters from the 85006. And I'm grateful for the food and beverage which I understand will be provided by Chicanos Por La Casa. Rob

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Originally Posted by dmc

What about the city of Chicago? Shouldn't you also be demanding the mayor be thrown out, arrested, and sued? And let's not forget about his pension.

United handled this badly, but this is will soon be forgotten by the majority of travelers.

I am a little curious about your protest party's. Do the 85006 look at protesting as a social function? Do they have a committe to chose what the next protest is going to be for? Do they sell T shirts proclaiming their zip code?

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A quick response - given that I am from the lower social classes, is it not my moral obligation to protest against United Airlines and the evil that this brand represents? Would I not be just as guilty as United Airlines is, understanding America as I do coming from the lower social classes, if I chose not to protest? Coming from the lower social classes and seeing America clearly as I do, how could anyone realistically expect me and my husband and others from the 85006 not protest? Appalling as it may seem to the upper social classes, I am all about human rights before profit. Deal. We of the 85006 have certainly had our share of profit over basic human rights FOR FAR TOO LONG. (capitalized to show respect for my husband and my in-law from Mexico, and to my Mother, an immigrant from Austria). Rob

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Your beginning to sound Trump like (HUGE). I didn't realize it was a human right to fly.>8)

Better go talk to your deity about that, and tell those people at the airport, that they need to donate their time, as it is a human right, so they shouldn't be making money off of it, either.:treadmill:



He refused an order, now whether it was lawful or not, to be honest should be up to a court to decide. It was a mistake to tell the cops no, as they have the right to use force for their safety and to get the job done. Lawful gets decided after the fact in a court. (law part, verses enforcement parts) Besides the lawsuit against the airlines, I expect he has a criminal court appearance now for failure to comply, which could end up placing him on the government no fly list.

Good question. If they know the airlines may need x number of seats, then why don't they reserve some seats on the plane.

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I am trying my best to accept that this was not a direct attack against the lower social classes in America and I am trying to believe, as best as I can, that this was not a direct insult to all the victims of the United States of America, and America's need to keep people from the lower classes down as best as possible to increase profit as much as possible for the upper classes. My husband, my Mother, and my in laws wish me to be brutally honest with you but......this site has been good to me and I will leave any retaliation against you to karma and walk away. And yes, those of the lower social classes are capable of incredible displays of class on a daily basis. Rob

Pulling into the Sky Harbour Airport in Phoenix now, at least for parking. Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob

So this one incedent from a company that employs thousands makes the whole company evil. They called the cops to get the doctor off the plane since he refused, and this is an attack on the lower classes.

i agree they handled it badly. But protesting for the downfall of a company for this is just silly.

Have fun fun at your protest.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob

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Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0a&oe=594F675C

You seem infatuated with victimhood and class. Evidently since childhood. How's that working out for you?

He will never leave Alan. He is part of the identity politics that is so popular now. He is a victim, that explains his lot in life.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0a&oe=594F675C

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I'd love to start over in Chile with my husband and both our extended families if for no other reason, the affordable health care Chile offers, both socialized and private. I am enough of a realist to comparison shop America on these terms and I'm afraid America fails such tests. No excuse for this period, but I knew that at the age of 10 - such is not news for me at this late date. Rob

PS But at least the protest is going well, and there is support from many different zip codes, not just the 85006. Gives me some hope. Rob

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I, too, am surprised that the OP isn't framing this as another police brutality incident. The airport police, the higher ups including Mayor Ram, and ultimately the taxpayers should pay for this outrage.Or something like that.

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There is something here to be said in regards to police brutality, IL, and multi million dollars settlements with the city of Chicago certainly are appropriate to keep the Chicago police in check going forward and to keep basic human rights and basic human dignity a top consideration going forward. You have a point - certainly there is much cash-in-able liability here in regards to the city of Chicago. However, the evil United Airlines Brand did draw first blood and so should be retaliated against first. Such is only fair, no? Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

There is something here to be said in regards to police brutality, IL, and multi million dollars settlements with the city of Chicago certainly are appropriate to keep the Chicago police in check going forward and to keep basic human rights and basic human dignity a top consideration going forward. You have a point - certainly there is much cash-in-able liability here in regards to the city of Chicago. However, the evil United Airlines Brand did draw first blood and so should be retaliated against first. Such is only fair, no? Rob

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I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.

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As do I for your lack of concern for basic human rights/dignity and for your stated continued support of the United Airlines brand going forward. However, realistically, do EITHER of our opinions matter going forward? What matters to the United Airlines brand at this point is the court of public opinion (not looking good here in Phoenix, AZ, but I can't speak for the rest of the country), not looking good in China, one of the brand's largest markets, and I rather believe (most importantly) not looking good in a court of law. What really matters now is to increase negative publicity in regards to this brand and to increase public pressure for a HUGE lawsuit settlement, in the range of above $300 million USD or so, so that other corporations also begin to live in fear of the general public. We shall see, IL, but at the moment it does not look as if this brand is going to get off easy. You can partially thank persons such as myself and my cousin and my husband, and even my Mother, who says she will protest tomorrow (though I don't believe she should so soon after her knee replacement, you know?) Rob

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Originally Posted by jp1

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-unite...134223391.html

And as this article points out, the rules for bumping a passenger PRIOr TO BOARDING are dufferent from the rules allowing them to deplane someone who has legitimately been boarded. Untied appears to have breached their own toghtly worded contract of carriage when they did this.

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Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

A quick response - given that I am from the lower social classes, is it not my moral obligation to protest against United Airlines and the evil that this brand represents? Would I not be just as guilty as United Airlines is, understanding America as I do coming from the lower social classes, if I chose not to protest? Coming from the lower social classes and seeing America clearly as I do, how could anyone realistically expect me and my husband and others from the 85006 not protest? Appalling as it may seem to the upper social classes, I am all about human rights before profit. Deal. We of the 85006 have certainly had our share of profit over basic human rights FOR FAR TOO LONG. (capitalized to show respect for my husband and my in-law from Mexico, and to my Mother, an immigrant from Austria). Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

As do I for your lack of concern for basic human rights/dignity and for your stated continued support of the United Airlines brand going forward. However, realistically, do EITHER of our opinions matter going forward? What matters to the United Airlines brand at this point is the court of public opinion (not looking good here in Phoenix, AZ, but I can't speak for the rest of the country), not looking good in China, one of the brand's largest markets, and I rather believe (most importantly) not looking good in a court of law. What really matters now is to increase negative publicity in regards to this brand and to increase public pressure for a HUGE lawsuit settlement, in the range of above $300 million USD or so, so that other corporations also begin to live in fear of the general public. Rob

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So your d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't protest and hope economically this airline is destroyed financially and ruins your zip codes major employer? And this is because of some imaginary self imposed class system, you believe is out to get you? No, no obligation other then what you self impose upon yourself.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

I am trying my best to accept that this was not a direct attack against the lower social classes in America and I am trying to believe, as best as I can, that this was not a direct insult to all the victims of the United States of America, and America's need to keep people from the lower classes down as best as possible to increase profit as much as possible for the upper classes. My husband, my Mother, and my in laws wish me to be brutally honest with you but......this site has been good to me and I will leave any retaliation against you to karma and walk away. And yes, those of the lower social classes are capable of incredible displays of class on a daily basis. Rob

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No one can help you with what YOU believe. That is up to YOU. I deal with real people, in real life. Some victims of rape, incest, attempted murder, burglary, theft, etc. Others are perpetrators, Pedophile, murderers, thieves, abusive people of various sorts. You wish to retaliate for what YOU perceive as an injustice, go ahead, what can you do other then form a protest in front of your computer (like to see that,:laff:)!

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

I'd love to start over in Chile with my husband and both our extended families if for no other reason, the affordable health care Chile offers, both socialized and private. I am enough of a realist to comparison shop America on these terms and I'm afraid America fails such tests. No excuse for this period, but I knew that at the age of 10 - such is not news for me at this late date. Rob

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You cannot force others to go with you (inlaw's and that is their choice). So are you going to actually get information about immigrating to there while you are there, or is there something that is going to make you a victim and unable to do that?:doh::treadmill:

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Originally Posted by Alan

Just saw this on Facebook moments before reading your post. On the spur of the moment and with your history of hundreds of similarly themed posts, it seems appropriate.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0a&oe=594F675C

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Where is the tantrum crying kid meme, with the they won't let me Calexit post?

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I find your arguements ridiculous. So, no.

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Could you at least point to arguments? He has yet to even state what "human rights" were violated.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Pulling into the Sky Harbour Airport in Phoenix now, at least for parking. Wish me a bitchin' meaningful protest of basic human rights and basic human dignity against what America truly is......Rob

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Nope. I find your position absurd.

I think, after many years, that I understand inherently why this country does not work for me. Strangely enough being part of this board has helped me to understand this. For America to work for you, you have to be OK with the doctor on United Airlines being bloodied up and violently dragged off that infamous United Airlines flight. This goes way beyond mere protesting of the United Airlines brand - we could be talking about any brand here, realistically. What has dawned on me is that to believe in America in it's current form you have to either be OK with this violent treatment of a legally paid passenger OR be willing to look the other way. I am unable to do either, and realistically, I am doomed to never fit into this society other than at a surface level, and this only provided I keep my mouth shut.

No snark here - I really have to thank both United Airlines and also the conservatives on this board for making this crystal clear to me. At a very basic level I just don't fit into this society as I am unwilling to gloss over, ignore, or look the other way regarding such callous and heinous injustice. For me there are no excuses for United Airlines and this society, if one wishes to fit in, expects one to make up excuses or just find some other way to go along with intense injustice. No can do. At least I get this on a level down to my DNA now. Rob

PS I just came back to add that I'm not complaining here - I'm very grateful that I don't fit into this society now that I see this more clearly and I very much like what this says about me as a person. Thanks to those persons and the United Airlines Brand who helped me see this.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.

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I absolutely agree with you. Once United had decided to use violence to get him off the plane it was game over and his options were to either give up or be bloody right, to warp an English phrase. His likelihood of winning was roughly the same as the people who think that they will be able to successfully use their second amendment rights if the time ever comes to overthrow our government. Which is to say, pretty much zero. My point was only that United was wrong and he was right. It wasn't that that means anything until the inevitable trial.

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Arguments for the court, not for on the plane, unless your a lawyer. As an example, I have seen a lawyer go through a police DUI checkpoint and he knew what buttons he could press to push the issue. One of the officers recognized him and knew to leave it alone. But I also know of horror stories where lawyers crossed the line. The average Joe, I wouldn't recommend armchair lawyering.


So your d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't protest and hope economically this airline is destroyed financially and ruins your zip codes major employer? And this is because of some imaginary self imposed class system, you believe is out to get you? No, no obligation other then what you self impose upon yourself.

No one can help you with what YOU believe. That is up to YOU. I deal with real people, in real life. Some victims of rape, incest, attempted murder, burglary, theft, etc. Others are perpetrators, Pedophile, murderers, thieves, abusive people of various sorts. You wish to retaliate for what YOU perceive as an injustice, go ahead, what can you do other then form a protest in front of your computer (like to see that,:laff:)!


You cannot force others to go with you (inlaw's and that is their choice). So are you going to actually get information about immigrating to there while you are there, or is there something that is going to make you a victim and unable to do that?:doh::treadmill:

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My in laws do wish to leave the US (my husband's parents) and even my mother is thinking this country is getting to be too much for her to deal with - the United Airlines incident was just one of many things making her feel ill at ease about remaining in the United States. It would be easier for her to remain here given her age of 75 - she's getting up there to adjust to a new society, you know? My point here is that no forcing in needed in this case. As to my husband, he sees this country for what it is, is here to save money, and the only really nice thing he has to say about it is that he's grateful it's not as violent as Mexico - yet. As to the other issues in your post, I will come back to them later. Rob

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Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff

Could you at least point to arguments? He has yet to even state what "human rights" were violated.

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Ummm.....you really are OK with Dr. Dao being blooded up and violently dragged off that United Airlines flight??? Ay carumba, all I can say is that I'm sorry if that is truly the case, and that my mind reels with this - if it indeed the case that you are truly OK with how this Doctor was treated by United Airlines. Rob