Jury duty morning.....

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

With all due respect, for any non-violent misdemeanor, I'd have to say I disagree. I don't see how it's possible to forgive America for this based on the fact that you can be arrested these days for sneezing too loud......For a serious felony, I would say that yes, the employer should have the right to take this into consideration, yes. My problem is that like with so much of America these days, there is no sense of proportion or perspective - this I personally will never be able to forgive. Rob

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So you will never be able to forgive your grudge against America, but you insist America should forgive any crimes you deem less than serious. You insist on your “right” to various benefits, but chafe at dirtying your hands at the most quotidian form of public service.

Me, I’m a warts and all kind of guy. I’m happy to do what I can to advance the American project even though there may be aspects I’m not thrilled with. My moral compass must not be the precision instrument yours is.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

So you will never be able to forgive your grudge against America, but you insist America should forgive any crimes you deem less than serious. You insist on your “right” to various benefits, but chafe at dirtying your hands at the most quotidian form of public service.

Me, I’m a warts and all kind of guy. I’m happy to do what I can to advance the American project even though there may be aspects I’m not thrilled with. My moral compass must not be the precision instrument yours is.

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Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily? I am 51 years of age, please someone explain this one to me. I have yet to hear an explanation that makes any sense to me, period......I may be in a place where I am doing better now, and I am not ungrateful for this and I am more than willing to work my rear end off and pay any and all taxes I owe - but I can't unsee such things as this aforementioned overreach.

Let's just hypothetically say I won the lottery next week and come up with a off the top of my head number - $7 million for the sake of argument. This money would still not make me unsee anything or realistically change me in any real way - other than I'd probably buy one nicer watch and maybe have some remodeling done on the house I co-own. I wouldn't unsee the above, however. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily?

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I kind of don't believe that such a charge really prevents them from getting work (although it might for certain jobs yes ..). Because people with criminal records work period. Now 100 other factors may not be in their favor, I really don't know their situation, this explanation just doesn't fully add up though. Also you can get old charges removed from your record as well I believe, so I don't think they are always permanent (consult a lawyer on that one though).

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

I kind of don't believe that such a charge really prevents them from getting work (although it might for certain jobs yes ..). Because people with criminal records work period. Now 100 other factors may not be in their favor, I really don't know their situation, this explanation just doesn't fully add up though. Also you can get old charges removed from your record as well I believe, so I don't think they are always permanent (consult a lawyer, this does not constitute legal advice :~)).

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In Arizona there is no expungement as I understand until your 99th birthday, at which point your record reverts to clear. Not going to help many people though as most people don't live that long......so this may not hold true in all states as some states are indeed nicer about such issues, but not Arizona. A public intoxication here is enough to make it nearly impossible to find work - though to be fair, self employment I believe is still an option. Not everyone is cut out for it, though. And I still stand by my original point - this is overreach. Perhaps not the original conviction, but the life ruining effects of it indeed are. Yet another reason one should never trust nor speak to the police.....I would agree being drunk in public is stupid but in the abscence of any violence or other illegal behavior while a given person is intoxicated in public, is it really worth ruining a life over?

I don't come equipped with the ability to forgive America for how draconian this is, I just don't. Rob

PS And for those who don't get this, this person is on Medicaid and food stamps completely legally - costing the system money vs. having them work and pay taxes into the system. For those of you who believe in America, would you not rather have this person working? How exactly is the system served by denying this person access to legal income? I just don't get it......

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily? I am 51 years of age, please someone explain this one to me. I have yet to hear an explanation that makes any sense to me, period......I may be in a place where I am doing better now, and I am not ungrateful for this and I am more than willing to work my rear end off and pay any and all taxes I owe - but I can't unsee such things as this aforementioned overreach.

Let's just hypothetically say I won the lottery next week and come up with a off the top of my head number - $7 million for the sake of argument. This money would still not make me unsee anything or realistically change me in any real way - other than I'd probably buy one nicer watch and maybe have some remodeling done on the house I co-own. I wouldn't unsee the above, however. Rob

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If someone told me they’d been unemployable over the past fifteen years soley due to a single night in the drunk tank, I admit I’d be somewhat skeptical. I certainly wouldn’t take it as evidence of the moral bankruptcy of America.

I do agree that even sizable amounts of money may have little impact on one’s baggage. I would be willing to test the hypothesis however.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago.

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I work with a Director of Quality Control who has a Public Intoxication and Indecent Exposure (Urinating in Public) record. Employers aren't particularly interested in misdemeanor charges unless they impact upon the employee's ability to be trusted. I think your acquaintance is not telling you the entire story.

My brother is a felon, he served 8 years in a Federal Penitentiary on Drug Distribution charges. He can find a job, he just can't find one he wants. Your story seems similar.

In my former corporate job, I lived and breathed background checks for a Fortune 100 company. We almost never failed to hire based on a misdemeanor and certainly never for an old irrelevant misdemeanor. I think the only times we didn't move forward on a candidate with a misdemeanor record was if it involved relatively recent dishonesty in the workplace, or if candidate lied to us about the circumstances (and then it was really about the lying and not the misdemeanor) or if a candidate had a large number of misdemeanors.
In recent years, felony convictions did not necessarily mean we would not hire someone. There is a lot of "ban the box" legislation, so the felony had to be relevant for us to fail a candidate. We were also bound by the VCCA (Violent Crime Control Act) and were prohibited from hiring anyone who had ever been convicted of a felony involving dishonesty or a breach of trust.

I don’t buy it either. We regularly hired people with DUI’s in their background. I gave a job to a guy just out of college who told us he was going to lose his license due to his having a second dui conviction. He had to supply his own vehicle for work due to insurance, but we paid him for the vehicle.

I know there were many others, we did have a policy that you couldn’t be hired for two years if you failed a drug test.

Sounds like he really just doesn’t want to work and is using his past as an excuse. Or just not interested in the jobs that are out there.

It is unlawful to deny a job based solely on a misdemeanor in Arizona.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...n-records.html

also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses. Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet? To be successful though when you are given a chance you have to be hard working, on time and compliant with all directions.

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also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses.

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yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.

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Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet?

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there is that

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

In Arizona there is no expungement as I understand until your 99th birthday, at which point your record reverts to clear.

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You must live in some alternative Arizona.

http://azlawhelp.org/articles_info.c...&articleid=147

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Originally Posted by bae

You must live in some alternative Arizona.

http://azlawhelp.org/articles_info.c...&articleid=147

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Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.



there is that

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Goodwill has been publicly called out both in Arizona and online for their policy of not hiring anyone with any kind of record whatsoever, a record that dates back to 2007. As to the Salvation Army I don't know, perhaps they do work with those with minor records, here I will admit I don't know whether they do or not. Rob

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

It is unlawful to deny a job based solely on a misdemeanor in Arizona.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...n-records.html

also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses. Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet? To be successful though when you are given a chance you have to be hard working, on time and compliant with all directions.

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As to your first sentence, it happens every day in Arizona. I can't speak for other states, but it happens every day in Arizona. And it is very difficult to prove and many of the people it happens to can't afford an attorney and are so beaten down to begin with they just give up. Realistically, as I've slowly explored yet another area in which America works against it's citizens and not for them, I'm yet more afraid of this country. Rob

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.



there is that

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arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

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a good place to start with justice reform would be in a courtroom serving on a jury.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?

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In the Phoenix area this holds true....check out the stats for Yuma and for Nogales and for Santa Cruz County (this is a small County right on the border with Mexico that has Nogales on the US Side as it's County Seat). The whole state is not low unemployment like Phoenix is. Though I will say that over half this state's population lives in Metro Phoenix - 4.5 million in the Metro Area out of a statewide population of just over 7 million. (Arizona just cracked over 7 million in population and is now the 14th most populous state). Rob

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

a good place to start with justice reform would be in a courtroom serving on a jury.

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Part of me agree with you - had I been called up and served I could have auto-voted not guilty and spared an individual a permanent criminal record for life - this would be true reform and a very pure form of reform, too. As it unfolded, not a single person from any of the juror groups went upstairs to a courtroom for the selection process the day I served. So now reform via this method was possible - not my fault. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

As to your first sentence, it happens every day in Arizona. I can't speak for other states, but it happens every day in Arizona. And it is very difficult to prove and many of the people it happens to can't afford an attorney and are so beaten down to begin with they just give up. Realistically, as I've slowly explored yet another area in which America works against it's citizens and not for them, I'm yet more afraid of this country. Rob

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Please provide more than anecdotal proof of this. If it is true, why have not these people banded together for change? Is there no aclu or legal aid in Arizona?

Perhaps American is not the one working against it’s citizens, but the citizens themselves. People can overcome remarkable hurdles. Women would not be voting, African Americans would still enslaved and be using coloreds only bathrooms and ten year olds would be working in factories if they just stood around waiting and hoping for things to change. Life is hard and unfair. Every day is a fight for millions of Americans. But change does not come easy.

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arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?

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no and noone ever could because what would proof even consist of? If I had data that most of the labor force in various industries was illegal would that be proof or would I have to prove citizens were turned down for the job (the latter is near impossible to ever have proof for). Even showing most of various industries is illegals isn't so easy because employers don't exactly announce that they hire illegals as well that is technically illegal - if one is going to break the law it is generally a good idea not to announce it and even to have fake documents if you can. If anyone has this data perhaps it is the IRS but I don't know how much they share it. My boyfriend does work in the construction industry though, it's no secret.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

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I think you aren’t understanding what you are reading. And don’t have a context to evaluate it.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Part of me agree with you - had I been called up and served I could have auto-voted not guilty and spared an individual a permanent criminal record for life - this would be true reform and a very pure form of reform, too. As it unfolded, not a single person from any of the juror groups went upstairs to a courtroom for the selection process the day I served. So now reform via this method was possible - not my fault. Rob

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im sure the victim in the case might not agree with you.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

no and noone ever could because what would proof even consist of? If I had data that most of the labor force in various industries was illegal would that be proof or would I have to prove citizens were turned down for the job (the latter is near impossible to ever have proof for). Even showing most of various industries is illegals isn't so easy because employers don't exactly announce that they hire illegals as well that is technically illegal - if one is going to break the law it is generally a good idea not to announce it and even to have fake documents if you can. If anyone has this data perhaps it is the IRS but I don't know how much they share it. My boyfriend does work in the construction industry though, it's no secret.

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so illegals don’t seem to have a problem getting work, but Robs friend can’t get a job because of a supposed petty crime. I don’t understand why his friend didn’t just escape the country and live elsewhere, he must already live close to the southern border.

Just wanted to make an update. Arizona does not have an ecoungement law per se but for the past few years there has been a new law where past offenses can be sealed - not all, but some. So some progress at least locally. Rob