I want to be clear. I did NOT diagnose you. You used the word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
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I want to be clear. I did NOT diagnose you. You used the word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
CL, the people who are working most/best/innovating, with troubled teens are in residential treatment field, and counselors. There are a couple of books out written for parents on “how to help your troubled teen without losing your mind.” But you may not want to read any books.
Many suicidal individuals could have been saved through effective treatment - medication and/or talk therapy. One way to help them is to model accepting this type of treatment.
On Intervention some young people are only willing to receive behavioral health help when their parents go for help also.
Admitting psychological problems and seeking help for them is a big step in destigmatizing mental illness and saving lives.
Steve, I am so glad you found a good counselor and are feeling better.
hicken Lady, sorry my post gave offense. I think many people on this board are kind and reach out to those who state they are in pain. It's one of the things I appreciate about this board and about people in general.
I want to comment on those who posted here and tried to help.
I think your kindness is apparent, and I think you make the world better by your kindness.
Chicken Lady, I hope you find what you are looking for.
Gardnr, I used the word “depression” responding to to nswef. I was not trying to say I am depressed, I was trying to say, a therapist gives people tools to handle depression. What tools would they give me to handle the actual problem? If your neighbor cuts all your bushes down and piles them in your driveway and you get angry, you do not have an anger problem, you have a neighbor problem.
again, my communication style does not work here.
and mschrisgo2, I like books.
I do understand that people are trying to help, but many of them are trying to help solve a problem I feel they have assigned to me in error and I am not able to make them hear the problem I actually need help with. This is as frustrating online as it is irl, when say - you ask your mom for help with the kids and she comes over and decides to rearrange your house because she thinks that is what you need, and meanwhile, you are still trying to feed a baby and potty train a toddler and now you are bumping into furniture that wasn’t there before.
Sorry CL
Have you considered that most of us and the people in your life you are asking
these questions of: Do not have any more answers then you do?
Therefore we all are just trying to help you find ways to cope with how you feel?
You did say that both you and your Dh thought you were broken that does imply
to most people that a fix is needed and being asked for?
So, I see now that you did not mean a fix for you but, the world
Again, sorry there is no one fix for that.
Steve to you I am glad to hear you were able get past the dark spot!
Admitting to needing help is what got me past it too.
Take care
I had been sent a link to the article a long time ago and it took me a while to find it. Hopefully it works:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-per...thy-1480689513
The part that has stuck with me ever since I read it was this quote by neuroscientists Tania Singer and Olga Klimecki:
"In contrast to empathy, compassion does not mean sharing the suffering of the other: rather, it is characterized by feelings of warmth, concern and care for the other, as well as a strong motivation to improve the other’s well-being. Compassion is feeling for and not feeling with the other.”
Another part of the article stated:
"These studies also revealed practical differences between empathy and compassion. Empathy was difficult and unpleasant—it wore people out. This is consistent with other findings suggesting that vicarious suffering not only leads to bad decision-making but also causes burnout and withdrawal.Compassion training, by contrast, led to better feelings on the part of the meditator and kinder behavior toward others. It has all the benefits of empathy and few of the costs."
Anyway, thought this might help or at least provide some food for thought. Hugs out to you, CL.
I'm sorry, CL, for misinterpreting the problem. The way I see it, you didn't frame your need in terms of suggested books and tools to learn how to deal with suffering teenagers. You framed it as a real emotional emptiness and despair around that part of your life. I think many of us read it that way, whether you intended that to be the message or not. If you are asking for advice on tools on how to help kids with their pain, I retract my advice, because I certainly am not qualified in that area. I'll say again, that I think you are an amazing human being doing the most she can with her heart and her talents. I hope you find tools you need to help you.
CL, what about studying to become an art therapist? I always thought that would be such a cool way to work with families.
CL: In your initial post, you quoted your DH as saying that you are "broken." You also asked, "what do you do? How do you make it enough? How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?"
As Catherine referenced, if you had asked for resources in dealing with depressed/suicidal teenagers, the conversation would have evolved quite differently.
Anecdote on depression and medication: My sister takes medication for depression. She is an RN in a bone-marrow transplant unit in a major hospital. I don't think I could ever do her job, and I wonder sometimes if she would have the same struggles with depression in a different line of work, i.e. to what extent in the problem within her and to what extent is it a "normal" response to the nature of her job? However, her medication most definitely does not stop her from caring, she is incredibly caring and compassionate. It does make it possible for her to function and provide very real and necessary help for these people, as opposed to curling up in a ball on her couch and crying for them, which really does them no good whatsoever.
deleting for when I have more time to write...
CL, this is a really good thread to start so thank you for doing so. As I have read the posts that followed, I offer this response.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosarugosa
Most people are caring and most deal with similar pain; at times, it is a huge storm of emotions and deeply troubled thoughts. Fundamentally, it is a normal part of human experience. Some people withdraw and freeze into remoteness as their response.
As the posters have offered their approach to dealing with the pain as they have encountered it as a part of their normal life, they have found a way to cope and shared their caring and support for you.
Triggers of this pain are unique to each as is the approach to find some form of coping. What is common to all is that they have encountered this kind of pain at some point or seen others doing so.
The loss of a child or a spouse or a business or 9/11 or a crime or a car accident etc., etc., are happening every day to millions of people around our wonderful world in some form or other. Some stay in the pain, some struggle with it for a long time until finding some resolution and some take charge. We are each unique and need to find our own pathway through it.
I happen to value my different experiences with emotional and mental anguish as I have grown so much resulting in becoming a wiser, more caring human being. I always try to walk in another's shoes now before judging and watch my speech so much more that I did earlier. I have gained such enormous gratitude for all the incredible amount of good going on around me every day that never gets mentioned in the news.
Please come back when you have found your peace and share with us.
Thank you to the people who chose not to diagnose me with a mental disorder (and even better, prescribe medication) based on their unqualified assessment of posts that explore only one part of my life.
Years ago, when I still worked, the winter weather in Portland took a bad turn. As I waited at my bus stop, an ice storm began in earnest. I waited for an hour with wind-driven ice pellets stinging my face, and when the bus finally arrived, it took the driver two long hours in crazy weather and traffic to make the trip. I arrived at work hours late only to be greeted by an announcement thanking "those who got to work on time." I vowed that I'd never make an extraordinary effort to get to work ever again, and I didn't.
As far as I can tell no one's input was helpful to you, and probably not a few of us will throw up our hands and just choose not to try in the future. For which you will undoubtedly be thankful.
Your husband knows you best and you've said how much you love him. His comment should be important enough to you to go seek some guidance. Obviously the tools we all have received from our counselors is useless to you. You have been offered soooo many exploration options and suggestions from the cumulative experiences of our members. And you have determined that NOTHING here is useful to you. Go to a counselor for professional discussion rather than the cumulative wisdom you've been given here. There is no shame in seeking professional help however you sound highly resistant to the idea that it might be exactly what will help you down this path to a healthier self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
I wish you peace.
Good advice so far. Have you considered all the media and being overwhelmed with it?
Sometimes watching the news makes me crazy. Just too frustrating. Makes me think there is no hope for the world.
Unplug for a while. Best wishes.
This made me snort as in it is a funny truth of life.Quote:
As far as I can tell no one's input was helpful to you, and probably not a few of us will throw up our hands and just choose not to try in the future. For which you will undoubtedly be thankful.
I am a moderator on another forum and I have to be nice on that forum because it’s Nextdoor, the neighborhood forum where people know me in real life. So yeah, I have to be nice. That is hard for me. :)
Anyway, someone made a post about two homeless people she sees regularly who beg for money, and what can we do about that sad situation, how can we help them, She is sad about them, etc.
Some smart assed person responded with “ well aren't YOU a caring and concerned monkey?!!?” which immediately makes reference in my mind to our greater family, the apes, who pet each other and touch hands to heads and etc to give comfort when they are all upset. It also makes reference to the current game of virtue signaling which I find tiresome.
But I immediately deleted that rude post, tho it made me laugh and I agreed with it,
because I am responsible for maintaining an atmosphere of respectful dialog and etc.
I dont have a specific point here other than the pain of the world is felt and handled differently by us humans, and if we dont all have the same reaction to a specific set of circumstances, that is normal and ok. CL is perfectly within her rights to be annoyed at all of the unhelpful monkey hands that reached out to her. The helpers may be annoyed as well. It is all ok.
IL, if she had asked the specific questions that she has now asked neither her or the other posters who tried to help and got chastised for it would have wasted their valuable time.
I can understand how being told to go to therapy or take meds (although I think people were mostly suggesting the former) could be offensive. I don't default to therapy because it's not a solution I've personally found helpful. Other people have. I might truly believe as good a resources (such as books and support groups) are available for free or cheap as spending a fortune on therapy. I don't think there are necessarily better answers in therapy than in a free support group. Others have other experiences.
My criticism of therapy is also that it never addressed the problems I wanted addressed. But those problems have to be in some theoretical possibility addressable as well, one can't demand the impossible.
Going back to original problem, adolescent suicide is indeed very depressing. That the next generation has so little hope should be as important an issue as dealing with other huge crises. I have an acquaintance here who is similarly troubled by it and her "contribution" was to become a CASA volunteer. It has given her an inside view to the troubled lives so many of these young people are dealing with. I don't know what the answer is but to me it is truly a sign of societal/cultural dysfunction.
Here is what is happening in 1 Northwest University: https://broncosports.com/news/2019/9...roncobold.aspx I think it is a fantastic beginning with the 18-23yo population.
High school tool available:
https://www.sprc.org/resources-progr...-signs-suicide
https://save.org/for-students/
https://depts.washington.edu/nwbfch/...ide-prevention
Google is full of tools and ideas!
I think a good therapist can guide you out of your "reality,' which may be distorted because you are bound to one set of thoughts and feelings that are causing you pain. We tend to put a lot of weight on what we perceive to be the reality of our situation, and until someone gives us a different window, our "reality" will be our framework. I've had therapists who were able to allow me to see that what I perceived to be true were not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
yea I never actually came to share their values and worldview though, heaven knows they tried to make me and at times I tried to make myself. And eventually it was freeing just not to have to police my thoughts anymore, so they are bad thoughts, sinful thoughts, oh sorry that's old school, new school: "irrational thoughts". Well devil may care, I don't!Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
There may be very specific reasons why it didn't work, most of the therapists I worked with were male, maybe the gender gap was unbridgeable. They were usually older, maybe the generation gap was unbridgeable (ok boomers :laff: ). Yea yea we perceive reality from our vantage right. Noone has a lock on reality on many things, yea sure if we are talking a scientific question there is having more and less evidence of course, but on values and stuff oh boy ...
This was one place where I was getting stuck. I like to look at the world in an analytical, logical fashion. Always worked for me before. But the world just laughs at that, especially lately. My counselor identified that several situations in my life, unrelated by people or time, actually had similar roots. It was an "aha" moment for me and made it possible for me to realize several truths about the particular family situation I was in, as well as others. It didn't hurt that my counselor also went on and on about self-worth, which I have for a long time discounted. But that fit into this main situation as well. Counseling made a huge difference for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
I understand others have not had good results with counseling. There are cr2ppy counselors out there. There are impediments to doing the work. My ex-wife had such prior bad experience with counseling that she did not want to go to marriage counseling until I announced that, if we didn't go together, I was going by myself -- and leaving the marriage anyway. She went -- but refused to participate. I guess counseling didn't work for her then, either.
Despite Chicken Lady's protests, those of us who did recommend counseling did it out of caring and positive personal experience. It saddens me that CL seems to have interpreted the (maybe sometimes strong) suggestions as either a mandate or as evidence of not listening to her. But I think many of us have walked down roads similar to the one she's walking down now and having a neutral party to speak with made a big difference. We each make our choices and have to make them in our own time. No offense meant, CL, and I hope you find what you're looking for somewhere.
To the many who commented positively on my pulling back from the brink, thank you! When I started writing to-do lists and figuring out better dates and times for it, I realized I needed more help than I could muster within myself. I went to counseling grudgingly. I do not regret it; nor do my wife or my grandkids or my friends. I never want to see anyone else think that checking out is their only way out. That may not be pertinent to CL's situation, but that grind can get to ya and it creates a reality of its own. Thankfully, those days are behind me.
Don't discount drugs. I understand your experience with the narcotics. I'm not a pharmacist or a medical person at all, but I would think there are drugs out there that can help you without you becoming addicted to them. I understand you want to heal the underlying cause. Sometimes we have to remove some of the pain so we can rest and heal, not just physically, but also mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Please reach out for help. If that doesn't work, reach out again.
I lost my post switching pages, so I am sorry, but I will serial post. I have been away from the internet all day.
happystuff, I cannot read the article, and I would like to, because it looks like one of the tools I am looking for. An answer to How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?"
How to still love them, still be open to them, and treat them with compassion without being overloaded by the waves of empathy until I am no good to anyone.
and I led with the pain because the pain is what us driving me to seek answers. The feeling that I am not doing all that I can for these kids because I need more tools. But the solution to that is tools, or new ways to find tools, or perhaps re happystuff, different ways to USE the tools.
Catherine, i said I clearly can not communicate with most of you. That is on me. It is also not the first time. The only way I see to make it the last us to stop talking - speaking of which, Jane and IL, amen.
Tybee,
the art therapy idea is interesting. I have a feeling I end up doing some of that informally in my studio class. But while full scale returning to school is not in the cards, seeking out more information on how to incorporate some of that appropriately in proven ways would not be a bad idea.
Gardnr,
i skimmed over some of your stuff and will go back. It is good. My problem is that I am prohibited from implementing programs like that or sharing a lot of that information because I am officially unqualified and I spend time with my kids in a professional setting. If anyone is going to make a decision to make information like a suicide hotline available, it would have to be the not-very-good at her job, but slowly (so d@mn slowly) getting better guidance counselor. I am not helpful if I get fired. And no I can’t share the resources with her and suggest she implement them because she is still too insecure and protective of her domain. She will get defensive and offended and then verbally pat me in the head and suggest I stick to art. Been there. Recently.
i May be too analytical and logical, but the idea of someone guiding me out of my reality.... two of my kids studied education. My son was in a class in which his professor said “if your students are not paying attention and connecting with the lesson that is your fault and you need to change the way you are presenting the material.” And my son raised his hand and said “or maybe they can’t engage because their gunshot wound reopened and they are bleeding through their shirt. That happened to my sister (who was student teaching) last week.”
my reality is the gunshot wound. I’m not sure how guiding me to the other frame of reference is going to help the kid who is bleeding.
on a final note, today I asked a woman I love and who loves me and has known me for 22 years and who incidentally recently started medication for depression that has improved her life if she thinks I could possibly be depressed and might benefit from therapy or medication. And she laughed out loud. She said “you are sad because of sad things. And you are angry because you have an overdeveloped sense of righteousness. But you are definitely not depressed.
I would most definitely be making up those poster type pages announcing the resources available, with the tear off tags with phone numbers. Discreetly post in bathrooms and everywhere else a thumbtack works. It doesn't take a counseling education to post a piece of paper. That way you are in no way providing verbal information/guidance to anyone. An interested party has to get it for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicken lady
Let it be known that I have pulled my head back and am no longer sticking my neck out. 😄
But I feel terribly guilty if I want to discuss salad spinners, or instant pots or anchovies or something, even if I have time off and am not doing a darn thing (and all I really gotta do is live and die).
I rather like talking philosophy (whether or not it involves salad spinners). Other than that much information is online, as they said back in the day google (bing, duckduckgo) is your friend!
ANM, you go ahead and rock out with the salad spinners. I won’t harsh your bliss.
CL: I am always amazed at how difficult effective communication can be. When DH & I communicate poorly, I wonder what hope there can be for the rest of the world since we have been a happily bonded pair since we were children. In any event, just because it's difficult doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
Steve - Add me to the list of people who are very happy that you made it out of the dark place. I'm grateful that you are alive on this planet. You make it a better place. And I'm sorry that you were ever in that place to begin with. The book that I have found most helpful in coming to a place of acceptance is When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times by Pema Chödrön. Of course, I also believe that when we're ready, the teacher shows up in one form or another. You were ready and allowed the teacher in. I wish you continued peace and happiness.
Your post made me think of the saying about comparing our insides to other people's outsides. I never would have thought that you were in that place and in that amount of pain. You've always struck me as a very happy and contented person. More and more I find that getting to know others challenges my perceptions and allows a connectedness that is not possible when we are closed off. Thank you for sharing your struggle. I hope that we can lessen your burden, even if just a little bit, and provide you a sense of connection, even if it's from afar.
Thank you, Geila. I thought long and hard about writing what I did. Not the kind of thing one broadcasts from rooftops. But it seemed appropriate. At least my post seems to have served a broader purpose here.
I have long believed pain is not a stopping place. I have difficulty understanding why anyone would want to remain there. Of course, there's recognizing that one is stuck -- and that can be subject to interpretation. I denied being stuck for a long time. Some might have caught on to that faster than I did; others might have needed even longer. People; they're just hard to figure out.
Steve, Imdont especially like computers any more, they annoy me too often.
But the humans, they are impossible.
Dogs—that’s the ticket. And cats.
Also so glad you are here Steve. Your absence would be a big loss.
Thanks so much for sharing, Steve. So glad you are here as well.
When I think I am not doing enough or doing things "right" or helping as much as I can, etc. etc. etc. I try to remember to just go back to basics - smile as much as possible, be nice, and be kind. These three things are chosen behaviors and are ALWAYS possible, and if I can get through a whole day doing those three things, it gives me hope.
Steve, I was a fan of the old T.V. show M.A.S.H. and still watch it in reruns on an oldies channel. When I finally heard the words to the opening theme song I was, shocked is not the right word, but startled maybe to hear "suicide is painless, it brings on many changes. And, I can take or leave it if I please.". Suicide is NOT painless for the families and friends who are left with the pain forever. My husband came from a family where suicide was way too commonplace. I am talking his father, 2 uncles and 2 brothers. At the minimum. There may have been a niece also. So I have seen the devastation, questions, and overwhelming pain that is left in the aftermath. When my husband passed away suddenly of an apparent massive heart attack, one of my first thoughts was "at least I won't have to see him go through what his brothers went through". And, they were good, functioning members of society. Not some hopeless derelict who gives up on life. But they did, they had too in their minds. I am so happy Steve that you got help and didn't give up.
CL I have no answers. I know the world is a very depressing and ugly place at times and I guess my way of dealing with it is hiding my head in the sand too much. I seldom watch the news. On facebook, I scroll by things that "hurt my heart" and if I do see/read something terribly bad, it haunts me for a long time. I have a friend who also is a potter and we were discussing an issue one day where I was wanting to do something, do more, and she very gently said "you do what you can". I recall those words in different situations. I do what I can.