Let the debate begin?

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Tomorrow we find out just how corrupt- or not corrupt - the Supreme Court of the United States truly is. Supposedly their decision re Trump's potential immunity for his many serious Felony crimes you or I would already be in prison for - especially his treason in attempting to overturn election results in the Peach State - will be released. (As a humorous aside, there are now five billboards scattered throughout the city of Atlanta - one even in Buckhead (!!!!!) welcoming Mr. Trump to Atlanta in his first Atlanta appearance as a Convicted Felon. Georgia rocks!!!)

I have little faith BUT will be taking the long view. Full immunity for Trump likely equals a faster split up of this country - or at least concrete steps towards achieving such, and more quickly than if the Supreme Court had done the right thing instead. There is no excuse for Donald Trump to be granted immunity - but maybe with a faster split this is the best outcome for the United States and us all? Remember - long view for the win. Rob

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I think you've embraced the popular misconception that the question the Supremes must rule on has to do specifically with Trump and that is not correct. It has to do with Presidential immunity, dealing with the office itself, regardless of who inhabits it.

I believe one of the considerations they must deal with is the possibility that since the Democrats have normalized doing everything in their power to prevent Trump from being elected again, what happens when the Republicans, or any other group, uses the same law fare techniques against past or future presidents. Without some form of immunity for those holding the office, I can't imagine anyone voluntarily holding the post.

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Originally Posted by catherine

So, wow. I just saw Biden's post-debate rally in Raleigh on CNN--was that the same guy I saw last night?? I'm starting to think the Trump campaign slipped him a mickey last night.

Seriously.. If you think of his State of the Union address last winter and then last night's debate and now the post-debate rally--it does make me wonder if last night was just a REALLY off night.

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President Biden can read from a teleprompter. That’s what you were seeing during the state of the union.

we learn that the president is fully on board from 10 AM until 4 PM. He’s doing his job then.


That’s funny because he’s doing even less than what I thought he was doing. I figured he needed a nap at 10 am in the morning having been up for two hours. Another nap around 2:30, dinner at five, work a couple of hours, rest and bed around 8 PM.

The Biden family huddled together yesterday at Camp David to make their deeply personal decision about running for president in 2024. Because you know it’s all about THEM. Not 330 million people, or even their loyal followers who don’t want Trump in the White House.
the editorial board of the New York Times is calling for him to drop out of the race. The Trump camp is really happy with Joe Biden being in the race.

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Originally Posted by HappyHiker

I was pulling for President Biden to pull off a powerful performance. Didn't happen. Trump fired a whole rapid-fire list of lies that evaded the questions put to him--and that left Biden unable to respond.

Felt sad and disheartened until I read a comment that we're not just voting for one person--we're voting for an entire administration.

Biden's administration is superb and qualified and experienced (imho). Trump's previous administration was either fired, quit or unfilled. And precious few of then are supporting his run this time around. That tells me a lot. People he hired despise him, pretty much. Including his former VP.

Biden has my vote if he chooses to run.

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Biden’s administration are the people who have been lying to the American public about the competency of President Joe Biden for years now. Yeah, I want these lying liars who lie to continue, the people who prop him up, the people who cover for him, and frankly, the people who make the decisions for the country. Not.

That said, the alarming turnover in the Trump White House was fearsome.

Well, it’s clear to me that the Democrats are as weak and ineffectual at stopping the train of their incredibly poor choice for president as the Republicans have been.

I see the decision was that presidents have immunity for “official acts”. I anticipate many future arguments over the definition of “official”.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Well, it’s clear to me that the Democrats are as weak and ineffectual at stopping the train of their incredibly poor choice for president as the Republicans have been.

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Within the Party establishment, as opposed to the chattering class allies, the major thrust seems to be pretending they didn’t see what they saw on Thursday. The argument being that Trump presents such a danger to “our democracy” that they must line up behind anything short of a ham sandwich as our savior.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Within the Party establishment, as opposed to the chattering class allies, the major thrust seems to be pretending they didn’t see what they saw on Thursday. The argument being that Trump presents such a danger to “our democracy” that they must line up behind anything short of a ham sandwich as our savior.

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Well, Sam Harris did say he would vote for Joe Biden‘s pickled head in a jar before he would vote for Donald Trump.


Sam Harris is a thought leader for me in many instances.

The next debate is scheduled for September 10. The Democratic National Convention is in August. They will probably be more dramatic than usual, what with Gaza protests, insider maneuvers to grab Biden’s candidacy, etc.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Well, Sam Harris did say he would vote for Joe Biden‘s pickled head in a jar before he would vote for Donald Trump.


Sam Harris is a thought leader for me in many instances.

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I know of Sam Harris, but my gut feeling based on the little I had read and overall ignorance of him was a negative one, because of his feelings about religion. However, I just did a quick Wikipedia review and I see that I can relate to 2/3rds of what Wikipedia says about him which of course may be true or untrue (but I tend to think of Wikipedia as pretty neutral overall.

Unfortunately, the trajectory of the evangelicals in this country is pushing me more and more away from organized religion. Despite the fact that I have been very devoted to Christianity throughout my early life and even wanted to be a nun.. despite my complete admiration for certain Christians like Dorothy Day and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.. despite my growing universalist/pantheistic/Christian/Buddhist/Hindu bent... I am starting to feel more closely aligned politically with the secular philosophers than the religious ones.

And I do love that quote about voting for Joe Biden's pickled head in a jar before a vote for DJT.

Evangelicals would push anyone away from Christianity.

So..... does anyone think that Biden threw the debate on purpose?

Just wondering if he could have made a personal decision.. not discussed with anyone except Jill... that he would throw the debate so that he could bow down without pressure from the party? Have a couple of years to himself at the end of his life.

There's a conspiracy theory for you. It would, at least, make a good "Wag the Dog" movie.

Doesn’t seem consistent with his character. The man has spent the last half century stooping to any lie or betrayal he could to enhance his power and reputation. He’ll just fire a few scapegoats on his staff and keep going until the voters, the party or nature stops him.

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Doesn’t seem consistent with his character. The man has spent the last half century stooping to any lie or betrayal he could to enhance his power and reputation. He’ll just fire a few scapegoats on his staff and keep going until the voters, the party or nature stops him.

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I thought we were talking about Biden, not Trump?

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Originally Posted by catherine

So..... does anyone think that Biden threw the debate on purpose?

Just wondering if he could have made a personal decision.. not discussed with anyone except Jill... that he would throw the debate so that he could bow down without pressure from the party? Have a couple of years to himself at the end of his life.

There's a conspiracy theory for you. It would, at least, make a good "Wag the Dog" movie.

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He is digging his heels in today telling us his jet setting around the world caused extreme fatigue.
He would never give it up voluntarily, the power and the glory. And none of these guys would tarnish their legacy by enacting a feeble old man role for show.The legacy thing is important to each and all of them.

Frankly right now, I am reconsidering my Biden vote. I may have to go back to my third party vote of the last two elections. I cannot vote for sneaky liars, those pretending that Biden (/who obviously will never resign) is healthy enough to be President.

Sam Harris said, paraphrasing, those who were in on shoring up Biden should feel shame, and those on the outside should feel fury.

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Originally Posted by catherine

So..... does anyone think that Biden threw the debate on purpose?

There's a conspiracy theory for you. It would, at least, make a good "Wag the Dog" movie.

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If Biden threw the debate, he missed a career calling in acting.

I wonder what Vegas odds are that he will withdraw. His odds of beating Trump in the most recent polls do not paint a pretty picture.

Just heard on the radio news that Biden is doubling down on not leaving the race.

I'm just assuming Trump will win at this point.

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Originally Posted by early morning

I thought we were talking about Biden, not Trump?

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The last effective strategy left to the Biden people seems to be threatening the voters with a Trump apocalypse. Unless Trump obliges (as he well may) with something truly horrible, that may not be enough.

I encourage all who believe in our country & democracy to not have a defeatist attitude--but to fight for what we believe in.

What will YOU do to make sure democracy prevails?

A defeatist attitude is simply that--defeatist.

Fight, vote, change attitudes & minds.

I am thinking that this could be our last Independence day under a Democracy or Democratic Republic. Read Project 2025, pay attention to the Supreme Court decisions, think about a House of Rep. that refused to do its job. The states that are killing women with insane laws that invade the privacy of every female.

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Originally Posted by HappyHiker

I encourage all who believe in our country & democracy to not have a defeatist attitude--but to fight for what we believe in.

What will YOU do to make sure democracy prevails?

A defeatist attitude is simply that--defeatist.

Fight, vote, change attitudes & minds.

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yes! Thank you.

I think we'll remain a Constitutional Republic despite Democrats efforts to convert to a pure democracy, and a Supreme Court adhering to constitutional principles rather than the emotional flashpoint du jour is a feature I'd hate to lose.

I'm not up to speed on Project 2025, actually I'd never heard of it prior to yesterday and suspect it's something someone came up with after the Supremes decided that unelected bureaucrats cannot take the legislature's place in creating law. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to look a little further into it.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I'm not up to speed on Project 2025, actually I'd never heard of it prior to yesterday and suspect it's something someone came up with after the Supremes decided that unelected bureaucrats cannot take the legislature's place in creating law. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to look a little further into it.

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First I've heard of it and I had to look it up. The part about reclassifying thousands of civil service jobs to government appointments, then filling the jobs with republican appointments, was the first thing that caught my eye. I can see where people have concerns about it inciting violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025

https://www.project2025.org/policy/

How many people actually believe that democracy is hanging by a thread? When Rachel Maddow talks about being sent to a camp, should a reasonable person take her seriously? Do constitutional checks and balances no longer apply? Or are we being subjected to a lot of perfervid rhetoric?

I think DJT would be somewhere between mediocre and dreadful in a second term, but it seems ridiculous to me that it would somehow be possible for him to seize dictatorial powers that he didn’t seize in his first term.

If the Democrats believed their own propaganda would they really have chosen Joe Biden as our savior? Our have they just run out of ideas?

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

How many people actually believe that democracy is hanging by a thread? When Rachel Maddow talks about being sent to a camp, should a reasonable person take her seriously? Do constitutional checks and balances no longer apply? Or are we being subjected to a lot of perfervid rhetoric?

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Both sides are spreading some irrational paranoia, but I see the 2020 election as being one Mike Pence away from risking the loss of Democracy as know know it. I sure don't see the dismal country the MAGA folks campaign on. Biden has been a mistake. I seem to recall he was elected as a one term president to beat Trump and it should have stayed that way. It's a mess, but not without choices that could make a difference in our future.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

How many people actually believe that democracy is hanging by a thread? When Rachel Maddow talks about being sent to a camp, should a reasonable person take her seriously? Do constitutional checks and balances no longer apply? Or are we being subjected to a lot of perfervid rhetoric?

I think DJT would be somewhere between mediocre and dreadful in a second term, but it seems ridiculous to me that it would somehow be possible for him to seize dictatorial powers that he didn’t seize in his first term.

If the Democrats believed their own propaganda would they really have chosen Joe Biden as our savior? Our have they just run out of ideas?

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I think that the way the Supreme Court is chosen automatically compromises the checks and balances of the legislative and executive branches. The left-leaning justices will vote for Roe v Wade every time. The right-wing justices will vote to limit abortion rights every time. They are human beings, and the scales of justice are definitely tipped in one way or another, depending upon which way the wind is blowing.

Freedom and democracy mean different things to different people. Some think freedom is the unfettered right to bear arms, no matter who owns them, and what kind of arms they bear. Others feel freedom is the right to send children to school without the fear of them being terrorized and killed in a massacre by an AK-47--wielding mentally ill individual.

I personally feel that the freedoms of everyday citizens are limited by the whims of the oligarchy. I think that believing we're free is part illusion, because of the money that is used to support that belief.

I fear for Steve Bannon and DJT and their ilk to seize power because I truly believe that they do not have the common good at heart. I'm not saying there aren't powerful Democrats wielding their swords as well, but I think if I were to lose freedoms by one party vs the other, I'd opt for the party that takes away the freedom to outlaw the common rights of its citizens whether we "approve" of them or not. I vote for metrics that take into account more than GDP and Wall Street stock prices.

This article is scary. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/o...sultPosition=4

The ultra-right wants to return to what they wrongly believe is a "Christian" nation and that alone make me skeptical that democracy will thrive under the next administration if DJT winds up back in the White House. And, as someone who believes that the health of the natural world is essential to survival, I fear for propaganda that perpetrates the narrative that we are the masters of the universe and that the ecosystem is so much bitcoin for trading. If we are bible-thumping people--haven't we learned anything from Noah? Are we going to have to scramble to save the last of our non-human brothers and sisters? Or ourselves--just to maintain our current lifestyle?

Dana Carvey was doing impressions of old, tired, and out-of-it President Biden years ago.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/IQ7Gi2Eul4E

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Dana Carvey was doing impressions of old, tired, and out-of-it President Biden years ago.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/IQ7Gi2Eul4E

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Brilliant! "Where's the mother ship?"

President Biden is in Wisconsin campaigning this afternoon and he’s shouting with vitality and he assured everyone he’s not dropping out of the race and he is by God going to “beat Trump in 2020.”

Yes, he really said that.

Where is the hook to remove him from this stage of politics?

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

President Biden is in Wisconsin campaigning this afternoon and he’s shouting with vitality and he assured everyone he’s not dropping out of the race and he is by God going to “beat Trump in 2020.”

Yes, he really said that.

Where is the hook to remove him from this stage of politics?

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A Madison friend was actually at Biden’s rally today. She said he was on his game, but of course, he was reading from a teleprompter.

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Originally Posted by Tradd

A Madison friend was actually at Biden’s rally today. She said he was on his game, but of course, he was reading from a teleprompter.

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In the clip I saw of him today in Wisconsin he was not out of it at all and his date faux pas wouldn't be a big deal if we weren’t all sore and tired from the bullshit of last week.

Resign, Joe, resign.

One of his supporters had a "Pass the torch Joe" sign.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRv1c-fa...pg&name=medium

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Originally Posted by catherine

I think that the way the Supreme Court is chosen automatically compromises the checks and balances of the legislative and executive branches. The left-leaning justices will vote for Roe v Wade every time. The right-wing justices will vote to limit abortion rights every time. They are human beings, and the scales of justice are definitely tipped in one way or another, depending upon which way the wind is blowing.

Freedom and democracy mean different things to different people. Some think freedom is the unfettered right to bear arms, no matter who owns them, and what kind of arms they bear. Others feel freedom is the right to send children to school without the fear of them being terrorized and killed in a massacre by an AK-47--wielding mentally ill individual.

I personally feel that the freedoms of everyday citizens are limited by the whims of the oligarchy. I think that believing we're free is part illusion, because of the money that is used to support that belief.

I fear for Steve Bannon and DJT and their ilk to seize power because I truly believe that they do not have the common good at heart. I'm not saying there aren't powerful Democrats wielding their swords as well, but I think if I were to lose freedoms by one party vs the other, I'd opt for the party that takes away the freedom to outlaw the common rights of its citizens whether we "approve" of them or not. I vote for metrics that take into account more than GDP and Wall Street stock prices.

This article is scary. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/o...sultPosition=4

The ultra-right wants to return to what they wrongly believe is a "Christian" nation and that alone make me skeptical that democracy will thrive under the next administration if DJT winds up back in the White House. And, as someone who believes that the health of the natural world is essential to survival, I fear for propaganda that perpetrates the narrative that we are the masters of the universe and that the ecosystem is so much bitcoin for trading. If we are bible-thumping people--haven't we learned anything from Noah? Are we going to have to scramble to save the last of our non-human brothers and sisters? Or ourselves--just to maintain our current lifestyle?

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I cani’t read the article, but .steve Bannon is creepy.

We're getting worried here even more at Casa Rob's. After the Supreme Court decision seemingly making the President above the law, Trump will be furthered emboldened to carry out his Authoritarian Dictatorship threats. This can not end well.....but long view I do believe a Trump victory will serve to split this country apart faster, likely something long term best for this nation irregardless. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

We're getting worried here even more at Casa Rob's. After the Supreme Court decision seemingly making the President above the law, Trump will be furthered emboldened to carry out his Authoritarian Dictatorship threats. This can not end well.....but long view I do believe a Trump victory will serve to split this country apart faster, likely something long term best for this nation irregardless. Rob

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You could always make a run for the border!

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Well, Sam Harris did say he would vote for Joe Biden‘s pickled head in a jar before he would vote for Donald Trump.


Sam Harris is a thought leader for me in many instances.

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I too would vote for Biden's pickled head in a jar over Trump, but why are those my choices? I mean WTF? With all the people in this country, how is this the choice we are facing? It makes my head hurt.

As a whole, it feels like our populace has gotten very stupid the past few years.

Like watching the movie "Idiocracy" all over again.

I wish Joe would get a grip on how much people want him to pass the torch. It's not enough to say "I'm in it to win it" when there is SO MUCH at stake! You can forcefully spout slogans all day long but it doesn't change ANYTHING. I roll my eyes at stupid empty slogans anyway because they remind of an old job of mine as a window dresser/display person at a high-end department store back in the late '90's. After every morning meeting the store manager made us shout "Yes we can!" at the top of our lungs and I absolutely inwardly cringed during it. I always stood in the back and refused to go along. Two years later the company went bankrupt.

Shouting that slogan en masse did nothing to change shifting consumer tastes, just as praying and forcefully shouting empty slogans that you'll win the next election isn't going to do a damn thing. The perceptions gleaned from that debate debacle will not change now no matter how many times he insists that he can still do the job effectively. Joe IS TOO OLD and the expectations are simply unrealistic that he will be able to maintain his stamina and mental acuity. Joe has got a lot done in the past 3.5 years and should stand proudly on that record of navigating our way out of the Covid crisis. Really I am pissed at the DNC for its ineptitude over the years. They have never learned to play the long game and as a result has strategically lost to the Republican Party, whose been at this power chess game for DECADES.

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Originally Posted by pinkytoe

As a whole, it feels like our populace has gotten very stupid the past few years.

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Yes, and the rural/small town people I come across online are the stupidest of the stupid. Conspiracy theory stuff left and right.