to answer catherin'e question from the other thread, I would like to see far less of a concentration of homeless on the block were I work. Spread 'em around. Send some up to St. Chuck for dmc to take care of :)
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to answer catherin'e question from the other thread, I would like to see far less of a concentration of homeless on the block were I work. Spread 'em around. Send some up to St. Chuck for dmc to take care of :)
We have some fairly famous section 8 places like that, around here. Once they start going downhill, even those in need, are afraid to move into them, and they were set up to give a hand up. When crime takes over, all suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Have to be careful removing peoples liberty. It has been done before and lead to things like euthanasia. A metal home is just a prison housing the prison that is holding the mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardenarian
What part, and do they have cash area's (these look no different really then most cashierless checkouts except for the literacy part, but McDonalds instituted that some time ago, due to literacy and non English speaking workforces).Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
It will drive prices up (things like a dollar menu going away), and will hurt small businesses the worst. (cash reserves are normally used for price fluxing items, these will be the first thing tapped for the increases). But maybe what a basic livelihood is, should legally be established first (already an issue/right to pursue happiness). (this also will outline things like no smart phones and big screen tv's, etc) After that is established, then we can start to establish a legal minimum living wage (legalese, living wage, is not the same thing as a minimum wage. It is thought that people are supposed to be smart enough to establish what they need, and search accordingly).Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Since Obamacare, they are choosing not to be treated, or is Obamacare not a law?Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Since I have two Trekkies in my family, I can tell you how wrong that is, since they miss a VERY BASIC PREMISE. You have to JOIN Starfleet (and Sisko's dad, and Picard's brother didn't). It would be more like if the WORLD had an army and needed other occupations besides a soldier.Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
Reminds me of a story from a sleigh ride. Someone came up and shook a friend of mines hand and thanked them for saving their life. They were going back to their room at the shelter and planning on killing themselves when they found the (amount) left for them. The one that they shook their hand, wasn't the one that placed it there, one of the other elves did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainey
"Many people think they can move into someone else’s neighborhood and start making it over as their own"Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Right there it starts off wrong. For example: There is no national language, and we find it acceptable to let those who move into this country to speak their native tongue.
So the person above, is now a resident (it ISN'T someone else's neighborhood then) and you reverse bigotry and bias against them? Then in the next part it talks about ILLEGAL and expects them to just let it slide? Thought this was a "melting pot", which means both parts should blend and choose the BEST of both not the illegal or worst parts.
How about this place, where there is no "bottom."Quote:
Originally Posted by bae
http://xposethereal.com/motivational...e-is-good.html
(Actually, sounds a little like where you live, bae!)Quote:
Officially a New Zealand protectorate, Palmerston receives many of the modern amenities that we take for granted. Housing, power (for a couple of hours a day), the internet (for a couple of hours a day), even – for a lucky few – a mobile phone signal.
Yet the people of Palmerston have no shop, just two toilets, and rainwater is collected for drinking water. Money is only used to buy supplies from the outside world – not from each other.
“That’s one thing I’m so proud of with the families living on Palmerston – we work together, we love each other and we share,” says Bob.
“For instance, when I’m out of rice or flour I can just go next door and if they have – they give. I’m really happy people don’t sell things here. The supply ship hasn’t been for six months but we don’t cry over rice or steak, we just manage with our coconuts and our fish. But the day the freighter arrives it’s like Christmas Day,” he laughs.
ETA: Actually Denmark is not doing badly, in terms of overall happiness of its population and how it has worked systematically to reduce the homeless population there, which is about 1/10 of ours.
Detroit, I wear my Made In Detroit sticker proudly on my car. I ride my Detroit bike. Detroit is in my heart that it can climb out of the pit. I seldom drive the 94 route to the northern areas, but when I do the wasted beautiful old buildings is overwhelming. I used to say the same thing, all the homeless or those that could fix and have a home and there are those homes. Sorry but agree with others, that would not be the place to revitalize for homeless.
I hit the WDIV, WXYZ sites each morning and leave with them same feelings. There is good, but it is far over powered by the bad in The D.
Neat article, Redfox.
I agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by razz
Here is some information/suggestions from SHARE International
Quote:
European Union countries are considered to have among the most socially advanced housing policies in the world. Among developing nations, countries such as Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Indonesia, Senegal, Singapore, and Tunisia are praised for their efforts.....
Much of the progress comes at the local level. "The places where you see success stories are the places where there are very strong community organizations present, a very high degree of participation in the community, and where the government has acted as a facilitating rather than a repressive force," says Scott Leckie. "Most of the success stories are small-scale, community by community, neighborhood by neighborhood, but they get replicated in other places once people find out about them."
Biau agrees: "The ideal situation would be to have a strong municipality defining the city-wide policies, and for each squatter settlement or slum to have a few CBOs (community-based organizations) and NGOs [Non-Governmental Organizations] co-ordinating the implementation of these policies. I believe that the key partnerships in the future will be between local authorities and CBOs and NGOs, at the city level."
Racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Who said we can't copy the ideas of our enlightened Starship Enterprise leaders? Some of those ideas remind me of B.F. Skinner's Walden II. I say, let's just erase the boundaries between nations, rename the world Starship Enterprise and all become members!Quote:
Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff
But I do think you bring up a great point about helping. I just finished a book based on Buddhist ideas, and one of the things the author talked about was the difference between "helping" and "serving." He says that helping can be a forgery of serving.
I do think we need to discern between the helping that is a projection of our own egos, and an attitude of service, which is an egalitarian sharing and mutual appreciation. If our public servants are truly public "servants" they need to be humble, to listen, and to set an example of the kind of joyful community we can all participate in.Quote:
Service and its emanating quality, compassion, are innate responses when our heart is exposed to the needs of others. Helping, on the other hand, is what the mind feels it should do when it sees people who are deprived. The difference between serving and helping is that the former is not a deliberation; it is a response. Helping is based on sacrifice, not strength, and is associated with motive and labor. Its intention is to allow the person who is helping to feel better about the disparity between herself and the person helped. The helper's reward is the pity she feels for the disadvantaged and teh social outrage she feels for the injustices of life....
Service comes from the perception that we are not isolated beings, and the interactions we have through service come from the truth of our inseparability. The joy we feel as we serve is the joy of sharing within that truth and is the joy of our commonly shared aliveness."
I don't think racism is the only explanation, although it's certainly a part of it. I think it's really a "lowest common denominator" sort of thing. People who view others as perpetual victims seem to think it's cruel to expose those "victims" to alternative worlds since their 'soft bigotry of low expectations' mentality would rather see their inferiors remain on the plantation they know rather than allow them to aspire to something more, and possibly not succeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Yep, it OK to have a guy dealing drugs outside your door, he's just someone who has a felony on his record and trying to support a few kids. I'm sure he can get them in the business soon enough. And folks drinking and arguing at the park are just celebrating life.
How dare someone try and clean up the place. We should buss Iris lilies homeless to San Francisco and New York to help keep those neighborhoods in decline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
When I moved into a rural county I learned very quickly that it was good manners to get to know folks for a few years before trying to bring my big city ideas into a functioning community. Then, after that few years, I learned that not only was it respectful and good manners, it was critical to understanding what relationships and systems were already in place that were not immediately obvious, and which served the community quite well, thank you very much.
Your comments seem to presume that communities of color & poor folk are inferiors, that they live at "the lowest common denominator", and that it's somehow racist to not expose them to "alternative worlds". That being polite and respectful is this mythical "soft bigotry of low expectations" thing. It's simply good manners, common courtesy, to build relationships with new neighbors for a bit before presuming your innovations are needed, welcomed, or an improvement. Get to know folks, understand what systems exist before presuming one knows best. Who the hell do I think I am, to have any kind of expectations of others when I am the newcomer?
I learned this in a white, rural, working class community that had it's share of second home rich folks, but that thrived as a farming & fishing community. After some years there, my desire to jump into community work was welcomed, because I took the time to weave myself into the existing community. That is what this article is about. Calling it racist is pure projection.
If someone is dealing drugs, which is usually a crime of survival and addiction, the most successful interventions are not bussing them somewhere else. The most successful interventions are treatment and jobs. It's pretty shocking how little empathy you seem to feel for your fellow human beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
The above was from the article you posted. There was no mention of intervention, just that it was normal for the neighborhood. You shouldn't change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Its shocking some feel we shouldn't be changing the culture of the neighborhood.
How many generations do we house and feed and keep dependent on nanny government before we accept its not working. How many people are now on food stamps or other government aid. Why is it easier for some to live off the government than get a job? Why do we encourage single mothers to have children they can't afford in the first place by giving them more aid for additional kids? Why work when no one in your community does?
I remember the first time I went to East St. Louis. We had a job over there and I figured I'd check on it during the day when everyone was at work or school. I forgot everyday is Saturday in the Hood. Not the life I would want, but the guys hanging out outside the store and sitting on the porch seemed to be taking it easy.
If you want to change the culture of a neighborhood, simply have some patience for awhile before you jump in and presume that your way is best. Get to know folks, listen to their stories. It's hard, in a pluralistic society, to learn to get along with people one disagrees with. I've lived in a multicultural neighborhood for 13 years, in SE Seattle, and based upon my rural community experience, I took my time getting to know folks before jumping in to suggest some changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
When I did decide to do some organizing, I teamed up with others, and together, we started a Community Kitchen. It took off and has thrived ever since. I know my neighbors, including the gang bangers. Because I've known them since they were very young, some toddlers, I know why they have chosen what I see is a very destructive path. However, they know I care about them as individuals.
There are a few now teens & young adults I don't invite in anymore, but I will hang out with them and talk about their lives when we see each other at the mailbox. One young woman came to me when she was raped, because she trusted me. She was 14, and couldn't tell her family. Because I did not judge her, she got some help when she trusted me enough to tell me about the assault.
The 21 year old who lives across the street can be scary, and his older brother tells me he has an illegal weapon under his bed. The older brother is a social worker, and is working on his brother to turn back on the gang life. I hope it works, because I've known this kid since he was 6; I used to cuddle him and read him stories in our back yard garden, feeding him strawberries. I know he remembers this too. I want him to find some hope in life, so that he turns around.
The city prosecuting attorneys and cops I know understand that legal intervention is the LAST resort, not the first. So I continue to care for him as an older woman on his block who he's known since he can remember, asking about how he's doing, and I even told him that I want to see him box when he feels like he's ready for it. He recently took up boxing, which is a sport I just abhor, but I think it's a good thing for him, and he was really pleased that I want to support him.
It's really worth it to take the time to get to know a place before presuming one knows better. I love my neighborhood, and I love that I am in relationship with neighbors who I see as whole people, not just poor, or thugs, or whatever your preferred racist stereotype is.
Your just trying to gentrify the place. You should embrace the atmosphere. The fights in the park are just the locals working things out amongst them selfs. Who are you to judge. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
It's so much easier to mock and disrespect than to have a productive conversation, isn't it? How different are you from the dudes hanging out in the 'hood, that you judge?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Your assumption is that if we took away all the safety nets and government support all of a sudden sick people would get better, jobs would magically appear that would fit everyone's skill level and provide them with enough income to actually pay rent, and the mentally ill and addicts would all of a sudden get with it, and employers would happily hire them. In the case of the homeless, which is what we are discussing here, there are 10 times as many homeless in the US as there are in Denmark--and guess what... Denmark also is the most socially progressive, with many social programs that the citizens are fine paying for. They have different homeless programs for different situations and they ARE working. Our situation with the homeless is not working because there aren't enough people taking the time and investment to look at the big picture, examine the root causes, and come up with housing models that actually work. If the programs aren't working, why are you blaming the people?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Poor is an economic condition and a thug is a thug, has nothing to do with race. But everything is racist to some.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
And if someone wants to change a neighborhood that they move into, that is their right. As long as they are not breaking any laws. The neighbor hood may change, maybe not.
Did you read the article you posted? This is just normal behavior evidently. We shouldn't try and change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
I'm not saying we should do away with all the safety nets. It just should not be a lifestyle. And some of the homeless probably should be put back into mental institutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Yes, having safe & secure inpatient treatment facilities for mental illness treatment would be really helpful. (My sis works in this field, and her stories are pretty hard to hear.) The civil rights are important as it's not illegal to be mentally ill.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I have come to wonder what the word lifestyle means? What's the difference between 'lifestyle', and 'day-to-day living'?
And you feel that the best thing for them is to keep them there. Give them enough that there is no reason to try and do better. Why work for $9.00 a hour with the hope to make more in the future when you can get more doing nothing. There are some that cant do better, but I actually believe most can.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Yep, I think Alan has it correct. Bigotry of low expectations.
No difference, except some lifestyle's may be determined by society to be illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
What I think is "best" for someone else is immaterial. I think that everyone, including poor folks and people of color are smart enough to make their own decisions about who they are and what they want out of life. It's very patronizing for me to have any kind of expectations, low, high, in between. Which is why this "bigotry of low expectations" thing is bogus.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I'm curious, why do you bring up "people of color"? Do you have something against those that don't have color?Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Nope!Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
It is interesting to note that LBJ's War on Poverty will be 50 years old this year. I will have to go back and read how/why it failed in order to understand why we seem to be moving in the opposite direction with each passing year.
Ive just noticed you use that phrase from time to time. Do some see most things as race? I don't refer to Joe as Joe, a man of color. He's just Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I absolutely see race; it's an important part of someone's identity, history, and culture, be they Scottish & Caucasian, Guatemalan American (my oldest daughter), Egyptian immigrant (my BIL), first generation Latino (my fav neighbors), etc. Race is a social construct deep with cultural, if not biological and scientific meaning. Ethnicity is culture. Anyone who claims to not see race is fooling themselves, or operating on the presumption that the only way to view people as equals is to not see a core part of their humanity.
I also see see gender, height, & age. These attributes add to my understanding of someone as I get to know them.
My son married a hispanic girl. They have a son. I would find it offensive if you judged him because he looks like his mom. I don't think there is any deep social construct within him. The only biological difference is his apperance, he does have blue eyes like me though. He acts no different from my other grandson and I expect no less from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Didn't Archie Bunker feel the same way?Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
I don't know; did he?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
It's interesting that you interpreted my seeing race as judging. Why is that, do you think? Do you actually not know which of your friends and neighbors are of a different race than you?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
And, why do you use the phrase "I expect no less from him", as if having a Latina mother and he being a mixed race kid means he would been seen as "less"?
It goes back to the article of gentrification. And that is part of "people of color's" culture. I do think that drug dealers, prostitutes, and drunks in the park are not things to aspire to. And I'm sorry but I do think less of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
Its been years since I saw the show, that was back in the 70's I think. I'm sure he was considered a bigot for judging people for their identity, history, and culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
I see we are sending a billion to the Ukraine. I wonder who will actually end up with that money.
I'm sorry, I'm confused. What is part of people of color's cultures? And yes, no one aspires to a life of law breaking. Rather than thinking that they are less than you, what if you had some curiosity about their story, and wonder why a person would be in that park, selling drugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Yes; judging people. Very different from seeing their whole selves, which includes color, race, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc
Isn't that in itself judging them? Arnt you bringing your preconceived opinions with you from their race or color.Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox
I'll admit how someone looks matter. A young person dressed in nice pants and a dress shirt gives a different outward appearance as someone with their pants hanging down and their cap on backwards. Black or White.