Wealth inequality in America

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Perhaps, but isn't it more likely that capital will be allocated to funding a substitute for that labor; either through automation or finding a substitute labor source outside the reach of the "central coordinators"?

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First, since automation is the cost-reduction gift that keeps on giving, there is almost no chance that automation will not be employed, in a situation it could be, regardless of the wage rates. Self-serve gasoline stations are the norm in 49 states, I believe. Banks charge more for walking up to teller rather than using the ATM. And we generally check ourselves out of the supermarket these days, never interacting with cashiers. None of these things were the case when I was born... how about you?

Second, the vast majority of jobs that fail to pay a living wage cannot be off-shored, so much so that I'd love for you to present a nice list of such jobs you think can be, to help the discussion along. I don't know about you, but I'm not traveling to Viet Nam to pick up my morning coffee, to buy groceries, etc. And the last instruction manual I leafed through that was written and edited in some other country was so devoid of cogency that there's really no risk there.

There is something to be said regarding farm wages, but I feel that reciprocal tariffs (charge them what they charge us) obviate some of those concerns. Regardless, I know a lot of people don't think about the fact that they're essentially eating someone else's misery, but that unfeeling nature is a moral failing that we should be looking to remedy, not reward. Sometimes, education is the best way to deal with such problems.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

And even if we were were to erect the regulatory or trade barriers that would make that more difficult, wouldn't that create a permanent flow of capital to more congenial climes?

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We're still one of the largest markets in the world. When China start exporting rice to us while we're exporting rice to them, then we had better start thinking about waste on a global scale.

It's almost CSA season up here in the Northeast - our annual effort to get our neighbors to try to think about how much petroleum gets expended to keep the store shelves stocked with field greens. Foreign trade is good stuff, don't get me wrong, but sometimes we're better off keeping things local. Why are we the last nation, it seems, to do anything to protect its markets from being unilaterally raided by exploitative foreign players?

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

how interesting. Your fewer workers sound like they have a good deal if they are willing to work hard.

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I don't think they are necessarily working harder, or more hours, rather, they are working much smarter, doing higher-value work with their hours.

I will note however that some hand operations, such as properly pruning grape vines, an experienced, skilled person can easily do 10x the work of an "OK" worker, and do a much better job of it. You may need to change your cultivation methods to allow this sort of skilled work to occur though. If you don't have access to such pruners, you may need to adopt methods more suitable for your "average" pruner to avoid damage.

I noticed the same thing when I was in engineering - some engineers were 10-20x more productive than their quite-good peers. And if you designed your processes around the average, you couldn't really make use of the super-productive people.

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Originally Posted by bUU

First, since automation is the cost-reduction gift that keeps on giving, there is almost no chance that automation will not be employed, in a situation it could be, regardless of the wage rates. Self-serve gasoline stations are the norm in 49 states, I believe. Banks charge more for walking up to teller rather than using the ATM. And we generally check ourselves out of the supermarket these days, never interacting with cashiers. None of these things were the case when I was born... how about you?

Second, the vast majority of jobs that fail to pay a living wage cannot be off-shored, so much so that I'd love for you to present a nice list of such jobs you think can be, to help the discussion along. I don't know about you, but I'm not traveling to Viet Nam to pick up my morning coffee, to buy groceries, etc. And the last instruction manual I leafed through that was written and edited in some other country was so devoid of cogency that there's really no risk there.

There is something to be said regarding farm wages, but I feel that reciprocal tariffs (charge them what they charge us) obviate some of those concerns. Regardless, I know a lot of people don't think about the fact that they're essentially eating someone else's misery, but that unfeeling nature is a moral failing that we should be looking to remedy, not reward. Sometimes, education is the best way to deal with such problems.

We're still one of the largest markets in the world. When China start exporting rice to us while we're exporting rice to them, then we had better start thinking about waste on a global scale.

It's almost CSA season up here in the Northeast - our annual effort to get our neighbors to try to think about how much petroleum gets expended to keep the store shelves stocked with field greens. Foreign trade is good stuff, don't get me wrong, but sometimes we're better off keeping things local. Why are we the last nation, it seems, to do anything to protect its markets from being unilaterally raided by exploitative foreign players?

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Given the way technology is improving and American educational competiveness seems to be declining, I would thing saying it will be impossible to automate or outsource brewing your coffee, delivering your groceries or producing readable tech manuals has a certain "man-will-never-fly" aroma to it.

So what to do about the Eloi? I don't see interfering with markets is a good answer.

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So what to do about the Eloi? I don't see interfering with markets is a good answer.

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Direct cash transfers on top of wages then really, earned income tries to do that, only it only applies to a subset of the working poor.

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Originally Posted by redfox

As the market economy and public sector decline, he forsees the growth of a "third sector"-voluntary and community-based service organizations-that will create new jobs with government support to rebuild decaying neighborhoods and provide social services. To finance this enterprise, he advocates scaling down the military budget, enacting a value-added tax on nonessential goods and services and redirecting federal and state funds to provide a "social wage" in lieu of welfare payments to third-sector workers."

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Whether the market economy and public sector decline or not this is a logical assumption. Right now a lot of the folks who would end up in that third sector are not producing anything that benefits society (no blame, just how it is). That is not sustainable over the long haul so at some point we will have to figure out how to reverse it. The CCC and other work programs of the 1930's weren't perfect, but had significant benefits for the participants and for the country as a whole. It might just be time to move again in that general direction.

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Originally Posted by Gregg

. . The CCC and other work programs of the 1930's weren't perfect, but had significant benefits for the participants and for the country as a whole. It might just be time to move again in that general direction.

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My grandfather did construction for the WPA, and as for so many other families, it saved his from losing their home.
But today, that same construction work (dam building, etc.) uses a lot less labor and fewer jobs would actually be created.
I'd like to see the same work programs but with a green focus: training people to do semi-skilled work to retrofit houses and buildings to use less energy. win-win.

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Originally Posted by Lainey

My grandfather did construction for the WPA, and as for so many other families, it saved his from losing their home.
But today, that same construction work (dam building, etc.) uses a lot less labor and fewer jobs would actually be created.
I'd like to see the same work programs but with a green focus: training people to do semi-skilled work to retrofit houses and buildings to use less energy. win-win.

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Lainey, that plays directly into the automation discussion that's been going on. You're exactly right that similar work today requires much less labor than it did 80 years ago, but the other side of the coin is that we have so much more in the way of work that needs to be done than we did back then. Every aspect of our infrastructure needs work (much of it was built in the middle of the last century after all). It shouldn't be terribly difficult to prioritize what projects are most critically needed and what ones give the most bang for the buck to identify starting points.