Gunman shoots in elementary school in Connecticut

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Originally Posted by peggy

I don't think anyone could have stopped this crazy from doing what he did. Yes, the semi-automatic guns made it possible for him to kill a large number in a relatively short time, but disturbed people will find a way.

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I agree. However a person with a .12 gauge pump action shotgun that can carry 9 rounds (like mine) can do a huge amount of damage at close range - killing or greating harming several people with one shot. And that can be fired just as fast as you can pump it (a second or less between rounds). And a standard 6 shot revolver can be reloaded within less than a second with a speed loader - and someone could carry a large number of those on a belt. Same with a magazine for a pistol or hunting rifle. Even a standard bolt action rifle can be "cocked" and fired just as fast as you can do the bolt thingie. So even banning the use all semi-automatic firearms won't stop gun violence - at least not of this type. As someone has said, there are over 300 million legally registered firearms in this country - not counting those that are illegal and unregistered. That means that of those 300 million plus firearms out there, only a tiny fraction of those are used in a crime - and even less in a case like this of a mass shooter. To me that makes gun owners overall a safe and sane bunch. In comparision there are approx. 250million registered vehicles in the USA and close to 40,000 vehicular deaths/year - each and every year. I don't see anyone wanting to ban autos because using them may cause accidents or deaths for many people.

And for those who say there are no restrictions on firearms in this country - check out the different states policies. I'm in Calif, which has the toughest gun laws in the nation. Buying a gun is difficult here, and carrying a loaded, concealed gun legally is next to impossible because it's impossible to get permits (issued by the county sheriff around these here parts) - yet we have one of the highest gun-crime and death/injury in the nation. Many done with non-semi automatic firearms.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Something else that I am not getting - why is the Constitution so sacred and holy? Why is it so immune to change without a massive struggle?

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To protect people's rights. To make sure that the majority doesn't trample on the minorities civil and human consitutional rights. To make it difficult so that any one group of people - say those who believe that homosexuality is a sin and that it should be made illegal and punishible as a crime - can't easily change the law in their favor even if they are in the majority. It's there to insure that you may one day (soon I hope) be able to marry your male partner even if other's are against it.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

Thinking about it, it does seem odd that most of these shooters are actually not the disadvantaged, who really in many ways are treated the worst by society, but seem more often to be people with quite a lot of economic advantages. I know having money isn't everything, their home life could be horrible abusive etc., but is it an upper middle class phenomena?

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Maybe they and their more well-to-do families place higher expections on them then do lower income or working class people. Children of upper middle class families seem to have a larger burden to suceed placed upon them - to excel in school, in sports, in social areas, etc... and when the kids - who may have certain feelings of entitlement many upper-middle income kids seem to have these days - don't or can't meet those expectations and fail, they can't hack it mentally. How many of them haven't been able to do well inschool and have dropped out or flunked out even if brilliant? How many have not been able to function socially or competetively in the high pressure social world of their teen age peers? How many of them had lots of strong parental disaproval at their life choices ("but you can be a doctor or lawyer or politician, why do you want to be a plumber or electrician?" You'll ruin your life")? Those things, coupled with general teenage rebellion against their parents, peers and society in general, as well as mental illnesses and the negative stigma attached to them - especially by wealthier parents who expect their kids to be perfect and act in certain appropriate ways in society - can leave them feeling angry and displaced in the upper middle class world they are supoose to belong to.

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Originally Posted by Iris lily

hey-- you are right, it is Over her name not Under.

Redfox is carrying on the long standing tradition of over-moderation on this board but for a brief 2 year respite. I realize that "over moderation" is in the eye of the reader but for the record, I protest.

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Going by the book this conversation is probably better suited to the rough and tumble confines of PP. As a participant I'm glad it's here because there are a lot of very sane and logical members who will jump in here, but not go near a PP discussion (further evidence of their stability). Their input is valuable in part because the PP gang already knows what the others think. I tend to want to run as far and as fast from moderation as possible, but there are times when a gentle reminder that we're all in this together, regardless of the source, can be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Eggs and Shrubs

This may be important to you but I wonder if it's really that important to the grieving parents of dead children? The UK, and many other countries, has managed without a written constitution for a 1000 years.

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Yet the UK has had at least 3 fairly recent instances of a lone gun man killing children in schools - elementary school age children. Does the UK ban hunting rifles and shotguns? I don't believe so. They can kill - and do - so unless you truely completely ban anything that fires a projectile, you will always have this problem - in the UK as well as other countries. The ansewer is to not opnly make gun laws stricter (I'm all for that) but mainly to address the "why" and "what". Why do some individuals feel the need to do this kind of violence against helpless children? What can we do to make sure those people are given treatment to prevent this? And again, most states don't allow the average citizen to carry a firearm - even to buy a firearm - unrestricted. There are already regulations against most firearms purchases, transport, and use. I agree they can be stricter and I'd like to see nationwide laws rather then state by state.

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Originally Posted by Spartana

Yet the UK has had at least 3 fairly recent instances of a lone gun man killing children in schools - elementary school age children. Does the UK ban hunting rifles and shotguns? I don't believe so. They can kill - and do - so unless you truely completely ban anything that fires a projectile, you will always have this problem - in the UK as well as other countries. The ansewer is to not opnly make gun laws stricter (I'm all for that) but mainly to address the "why" and "what". Why do some individuals feel the need to do this kind of violence against helpless children? What can we do to make sure those people are given treatment to prevent this? And again, most states don't allow the average citizen to carry a firearm - even to buy a firearm - unrestricted. There are already regulations against most firearms purchases, transport, and use. I agree they can be stricter and I'd like to see nationwide laws rather then state by state.

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THREE shootings? I can name one, Dunblane. What are the others? After Dunblane in 1996 hand guns were banned in the UK.

Veering off the gun control topic, has anyone else noticed that the shooter's mother is frequently not included in the victim count? I can't tell if it is because she wasn't killed at the school, or if it is seen as insensitive to include her with the names of the other people who were killed, but it's beginning to be really noticeable.

Obama's speech at the memorial--he referred to twenty children and six adults. Mentioned all the names but hers--is that because it was specifically a memorial for those shot at the school?

Connecticut's governor is planning a moment of silence this coming Friday, when church bells will ring 26 times, not 27. There are many other examples. It's become much more noticeable in the last day or so.

Is this just because people are focused on the children and their teachers, or because people are silently blaming her for her son's actions?

She was, after all, a victim. She has a son and siblings and a mother who can be assumed to be grieving.

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Originally Posted by Miss Cellane

Is this just because people are focused on the children and their teachers, or because people are silently blaming her for her son's actions?

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Probably a mix of both, with a little "she doesn't fit the constructed narrative" spicing thrown in.

Also not mentioned were the ongoing victims of this sort of killing, which claim ~4000 young folks each year, and so probably 10-20 people on the same day as the Connecticut shootings:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...unt-rich-lowry

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Originally Posted by bae

Probably a mix of both, with a little "she doesn't fit the constructed narrative" spicing thrown in.

Also not mentioned were the ongoing victims of this sort of killing, which claim ~4000 young folks each year, and so probably 10-20 people on the same day as the Connecticut shootings:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...unt-rich-lowry

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Yes, my minister was preaching on the shootings this past Sunday and he prayed that we view this particular event as a window to the world where children are dying unjustly every day--from violence or disease or starvation. I appreciated that prayer. Just because every suffering family isn't under the CNN microscope doesn't mean it's not happening.

I really appreciated your comment, redfox. I think this discussion was getting abusive and toxic. I'm out of it for that reason.