Propaganda and lack of concern for ending government shutdown

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Originally Posted by Alan

I doubt it. The Medicaid issue is their dominant talking point (and almost certainly the only issue the average voter is aware of) but it's only a small part of their goal. Outside of Medicaid the Dems also want an additional $1.1 Trillion or so in spending.

I think the Senate will be voting again today so we'll see if the Democrats will be able to successfully keep the government closed for at least another day.

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If the dems are smart, they took a lesson from Trump and should ask for way more than they expect to get as part of the deal making. I've not heard of the additional 1.1 trillion beyond medicaid cuts? It's maybe a bargaining chip. Not denying it, it's just not come up in what ever news I've seen and both parties seem to only talk about medicaid. Do you happen tom know what the money will be used for?

Several cities around here and the state government has been have had what sounds like big layoffs due to budget short falls. At least one claim is the loss of federal money and there have been talks about tax increases to make up for the short fall. I don't know if that's why your having tax increases and I'm not real conversant of the local minor details here. Everything is more expensive, but I'd be wondering where the additional tax money will be spent. A guess is that a lot of federal infrastructure money has been pulled or clawed back.

The gold bugs seem to be enjoying MAGA economic instability.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

If the dems are smart, they took a lesson from Trump and should ask for way more than they expect to get as part of the deal making. I've not heard of the additional 1.1 trillion beyond medicaid cuts? It's maybe a bargaining chip. Not denying it, it's just not come up in what ever news I've seen and both parties seem to only talk about medicaid. Do you happen tom know what the money will be used for?

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As I understand it, the extra money they want is basically just a reversal of spending cuts in this year's One Big Beautiful Bill.

I think the other salient point which needs to be made is that the so called Medicaid and healthcare cuts are actually the temporary short-term subsidies provided when the Democrats controlled Congress. They were initially funded during Covid times, and then extended in the Democrat controlled Inflation Reduction Act. But the thing is, the Democrats never made any effort to make them permanent when they had the opportunity, they are not being cut but rather they are expiring at the time the Democrats specified and now that they are in the minority, they want the Republicans to do what they never intended to do themselves. It's all performative political theater.

I've heard a different version of why the Medicaid benefits were temporary instead of permanent, where the blame fell more on the GOP. I actually am not sure it matters or which is most accurate. The question being whether our hard earned Federal tax dollar should allow more people to have health insurance at an affordable cost, or whether they should either be on their own in the expensive private insurance market or have an employer with health insurance benefits and group rates. It seems like the voters have wanted the ACA in a majority.

The GOP has proposed a better plan for affordable insurance, but I take it as vague talk.

But it is political theater. The GOP hasn't hesitated to cut taxes and spend money on the military and border security to grow the large national debt to a new record, but we quibble about this.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

I've heard a different version of why the Medicaid benefits were temporary instead of permanent, where the blame fell more on the GOP.

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Well that's interesting! I could swear that the original legislation authorizing the subsidies was the American Rescue Plan which passed in the House and then in the Senate with absolutely no Republican support, although the Democrats had enough of a majority in both to pass without the need for Republican votes.

Then, as I recall, when it was extended during the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act the Democrats again passed it in the House without a single Republican vote and then after some late stage negotiations between Schumer and Democrat Senator Manchin, it passed in the Senate on a party line vote of 50-50 which was then broken by Vice President Harris providing the 51st vote in favor.

While I'm sure someone somewhere placed blame on Republicans, in my book if the Democrats could pass the legislation with expiration dates twice without a single Republican vote, I can't imagine why they didn't make it permanent if that's what they wanted. Of course, you shouldn't just take my word for it, perhaps you could look it up and let me know if I got it wrong.

Edited to add: I see that the Democrats have again successfully voted to keep the government closed. I think this is the 6th time they've succeeded in the past week!

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Originally Posted by Alan

Well that's interesting! I could swear that the original legislation authorizing the subsidies was the American Rescue Plan which passed in the House and then in the Senate with absolutely no Republican support, although the Democrats had enough of a majority in both to pass without the need for Republican votes.

Then, as I recall, when it was extended during the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act the Democrats again passed it in the House without a single Republican vote and then after some late stage negotiations between Schumer and Democrat Senator Manchin, it passed in the Senate on a party line vote of 50-50 which was then broken by Vice President Harris providing the 51st vote in favor.

In my book, if the Democrats could pass the legislation with expiration dates twice without a single Republican vote, I can't imagine why they didn't make it permanent if that's what they wanted. Of course, you shouldn't just take my word for it, perhaps you could look it up and let me know if I got it wrong.

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In the time I had to look things up, I did learn a few new things. The ACA became permanent under Obama. There are the "enhanced" benefits passed during the Covid epidemic to provide more financial assistance to mid-income and rural people affected by the pandemic, which was then extended. I did not see anywhere who voted for what. I can only assume that the political powers in charge at the time represented their voting base and were in the majority. It does seem like it has been overwhelming popular and it's possibly the GOP has misrepresented their base? Even MTG likes it. The quick number I saw for the enhanced benefits was half a trillion, which is no drop in the bucket.

Any more Congress is so divided that most everything is voted along party lines.

But the question is whether the Medicaid benefits should be extended, and if it is a benefit of living in a rich country with wealth inequality and expensive health costs, or if it should be based on a free market of insurers and providers consistent with a capitalistic system. It does seem like we can create some form of fiat money for a variety of reasons based on who is in charge. Right now it seems like imaginary domestic terrorists and international enemy adversaries have the stage.

EDIT: and regardless of it all, Mike Johnson continues his deceptions about illegal using up the medicaid benefits, which is a partial truth at best. If there were better legitimate argements, he's not using them much and it is his main talking point that probably appeals to his base since illegals have reached demonization status.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I've been working class my entire life, certainly not one of the wealthiest among us, and the Democrats want to increase my taxes. Did you know that in retirement my biggest monthly expense by far is taxes encompassing local, state and federal?

Interestingly enough, locally we have an election coming up next month where there will be 3 new tax levies on the ballot. If they pass my local tax burden will increase by an additional $2000 or so. On top of that, if the Democrats wishes are fulfilled I'm anticipating another couple of thousand dollar federal tax increase. I'm not sure how anyone can expect working class people to live under these onerous tax burdens.

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You have a voice and can vote on tax increases. Your health insurance is not negotiable. According to the pundits, health costs could go up by 40% or more. I don’t know about you, that would be a lot more than $2,000. Also, taxes cannot always decrease if you want services.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Well that's interesting! I could swear that the original legislation authorizing the subsidies was the American Rescue Plan which passed in the House and then in the Senate with absolutely no Republican support, although the Democrats had enough of a majority in both to pass without the need for Republican votes.

Then, as I recall, when it was extended during the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act the Democrats again passed it in the House without a single Republican vote and then after some late stage negotiations between Schumer and Democrat Senator Manchin, it passed in the Senate on a party line vote of 50-50 which was then broken by Vice President Harris providing the 51st vote in favor.

While I'm sure someone somewhere placed blame on Republicans, in my book if the Democrats could pass the legislation with expiration dates twice without a single Republican vote, I can't imagine why they didn't make it permanent if that's what they wanted. Of course, you shouldn't just take my word for it, perhaps you could look it up and let me know if I got it wrong.

Edited to add: I see that the Democrats have again successfully voted to keep the government closed. I think this is the 6th time they've succeeded in the past week!

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As I am hearing it, republications are the ones keeping the government closed. Have they even come back to work?

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

You have a voice and can vote on tax increases. Your health insurance is not negotiable. According to the pundits, health costs could go up by 40% or more. I don’t know about you, that would be a lot more than $2,000. Also, taxes cannot always decrease if you want services.

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I think my reply to your statement having to do with providing healthcare to working class people or giving tax cuts to millionaires was to point out that those "tax cuts" can make the difference between working class folks such as myself being able to live in my home of 30 years or not. When a person such as myself pays approximately 30% of their retirement income on taxes (local, state and federal) leaving us in a position of not being able to live comfortably without significant savings, what are your desires doing to those without savings? Wanting to increase taxes because you don't approve of millionaires makes things extra difficult for millions of working class folks.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

As I am hearing it, republications are the ones keeping the government closed. Have they even come back to work?

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The House has already done their part, the current action is in the Senate where both parties are voting every day, sometimes multiple times each day.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Edited to add: I see that the Democrats have again successfully voted to keep the government closed. I think this is the 6th time they've succeeded in the past week!

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There is a reason why our forefathers required a 60% vote in the senate. Possibly to allow input and negotiation from more representations, which doesn't seem like has happened yet.