Estrogen and animal products (long)

Very interesting abstract, Suzanne - thanks for posting.
For those unfamiliar with the units in the abstract, the concentration is given as picograms/g for the meats. A picogram is 10^(-12)g. A 100-g serving of the Japanese chicken fat (the highest concentration in the abstract) noted would have 0.00000000657 g of estrogen, compared to the birth control pill of 0.035g per tablet (that number from this version of the abstract: http://www.asco.org/ASCOv2/Meetings/...stractID=49420). However, this is magnified over a lifetime of exposure as noted, and is clearly unnecessary exposure as well, since other meats had zero (or at detection limits, which were not noted).

Thanks for doing the figures, Rosemary! This study here has a rather eye-popping chart http://www.feedstuffsfoodlink.com/ME...9746173644359A. Phytoestrogens work like estrogen; although they're described as "weak', again the lifetime exposure should be considered. Running one's eye down the table, the soy products leap out.

This is from the book The McDougall Program for Women:

"Plants produce chemical compounds that have powerful anticancer effects. Among these are a group of chemicals collectively referred to as phytoestrogens. These are weak estrogens that compete with the cancer-promoting estrogens in a woman's body for the estrogen receptor sites in the cells of her breasts, uterus, ovaries, and other tissues. By occupying these estrogen receptor sites, these safe phytoestrogens decrease hormone stimulation of tissues and thus inhibit the growth of cancer."

This is the most convienent source for me to quote at the moment but I have seen the same information in other places as well. According to those who are pro-vegan, plant estrogens are better for us then animal estrogens if in no other way than being weaker and less dangerous. So I'm wondering how much of these phytoestogens are safe? For how long?

Someone like myself, who is trying to reduce the estrogen in my body, is better off eating a weaker source of estrogen, at least for the time being. That doesn't mean there isn't a better long-term solution. That frankly, is what I'm trying to find.

Jane, do you think that there is any chance that you just took things too far for your body by going so low fat and vegan? What kinds of animal products do you eat now and what percentage of your diet do they make up? I don't doubt for a second the things that you say about it being very negative for you. I agree that a no fat diet is an unhealthy diet. Also, I have read about other ex-vegans who feel much healthier after returning to eating meat so I consider the information you offer as valid and very much worth considering.

I have read information about people who do well on a low carb/high protien diet. My understanding is that some of them even have better cholesterol and trygliceride numbers eating this way. It almost seems as though you can have carbs or animal proteins but not both.

Suzanne, I don't understand the negativity of vegetable oils such as the reference to corn oil. Is it just a problem with rancidity? Or is there a problem with most/all vegetable oils?

Those of you who eat animal products, how do you go about providing yourself with grass fed, naturally raised foods at an affordable price? The few things I see at the co-op are horribly expensive! And how are you confident that you're getting what you pay for and not simply factory farmed foods with a different label? Please don't give me the ole "its cheaper than the medical bills" line. I get that.

Ok. There are so many more things to discuss but I'll stop for now and wait for responses. Thanks to all of you who are participating in this conversation.

BKE, I've twice written a reply that has disappeared into a black hole. This is only a test!

First, while plant estrogens may be weaker, they’re so abundant in soy products that their concentration could well have very significant effects, especially long-term. For example, a half-cup of dairy milk gives you 18 ug, while the same amount of soy milk gives you 6,028 ug. 100 g (3.5 oz) of beef fat gives you 19 ug estrogen, a soy burger of the same weight provides 4,430 ug. Dairy ice cream provides 16 ug estrogen, soy ice-cream a whopping 13,494 ug. My point is that if you want to lower your body estrogen, soy products may not be the best way to go!

MacDougall ascribes his success to the simple absence of meat, without considering that the ban on processed foods, industrial seed oils, white flour, and sugar, along with insisting that smokers quit their habit, probably also has major beneficial effects. The only way he could be sure about the no-meat hypothesis would be if he randomized people into replicates of 3 groups. One would continue to eat their usual diet but give up smoking; one would continue to eat animal products while observing all other dietary restrictions, and the third would cut out animal products while observing all dietary restrictions, i.e. eat vegan. You need multiple repeats of the grouping to iron out environmental influences. If, after a long-term period (many of these studies last only a couple of weeks!), ALL groups eating no animal products were significantly healthier than the other two groups, then there would be grounds for some confidence in the vegan diet.

The Paleo and Low-Carb communities also report very impressive health improvements. They also ban processed foods, flour, sugar, and seed oils, and – like MacDougall’s groups – they don’t smoke. Many of them don’t drink alcohol either.

The title of this talk is a little provocative; “How To Win An Argument With a Vegetarian.” If you can get past that, I strongly recommend it – it’s well-researched and put together. http://vimeo.com/27792352

Now for seed oils: Most of these are produced by heating to very high temperatures, as well as exposure to noxious chemicals like hexane that dissolve the oil. The process makes the oils rancid; in order to sell them, manufacturers have to bleach and deodorize their products. Again, some of the chemicals used are not particularly friendly. The oils are stored in clear plastic bottles, often for long periods, and we already know that estrogenic compounds leach out of plastic bottles into drinking water, so they very likely leach into vegetable oil as well. Light is a potent energy source, and the strong lighting of supermarkets could well trigger chemical reactions in the oils that would not be healthy.

Corn and sunflower oils are implicated in not only breast cancer, but also cancers of the colon and prostate.
http://foodforbreastcancer.com/foods/corn-oil http://ebm.rsmjournals.com/content/229/10/1017.full
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...e-cancer-study
http://www.livestrong.com/article/33...sunflower-oil/
http://foodforbreastcancer.com/foods/sunflower-oil

There is a school of thought that suggests that the carcinogenic effects of seed oils may be their high content of omega-6s and low content of omega-3. However, olive oil is protective against cancer, and it is low in omega-3. The protective effect could be because it’s easy to extract olive oil with pressure alone, or at low temperatures. The damaging effect of seed oils could also be due to the manufacturing process. I use only extra-virgin cold-pressed olive oil, I keep it in glass bottles, and I keep it in a cool, dark, cupboard.

Carl Felton’s examination of aortic plaques showed that only 26% of the gunk was saturated fat; the rest was unsaturated, and most of it was polyunsaturated. Analysis of body fat showed that most of it was polyunsaturated. Felton suggests that the unstable polyunsaturates easily undergo chemical reactions in the body which allow the LDL to penetrate arterial tissue, setting up inflammation. Inflammation is now thought to be a major driver in developing CAD. For what it’s worth, I had to take my dog to a specialist veterinarian, and this guy told me that the inflammation molecule is almost identical to that of a polyunsaturated fat molecule. He said my dog was to have no sugar, flour, or seed oil.

Now, affordability. I buy grassfed beef from Marin Sun Farms at a local deli/butchery at $5.99/lb for Diamond Jim cuts, and I also get Australian beef from Trader Joe’s - $4.99/lb for stewing beef, $5.99 for ground beef. Trader Joe’s sometimes supplies pastured poultry. While the upfront cost looks horrendous, analysis shows that it’s not as bad as it seems! I worked out that the cost per ounce of cooked meat either breaks even or is lower than that of CAFO products. For instance, a pastured chicken weights 6 – 7lb while a supermarket chicken weighs around 3, yet the carcasses (bones!) weigh the same. CAFO meat is often loaded with fat – a supermarket chicken may have nearly a cup of fat in the body cavity, while a pastured bird has very little. Pastured birds, because they’re not mainlined corn and soy, are pink, not yellow, because there’s so little subcutaneous fat. Grassfed beef is a darker red, has less marbling, has less fat, and the fat is softer and yellower than that of CAFO beef. The nutritional value of grassfed products is so much higher that I can eat less of the meat while maintaining good nutritional levels. Overall, I haven't found a huge upward leap in my food bill.

Supermarket chickens are usually “enhanced” with 2% of their body weight of a flavor solution, which is essentially water with a little salt and some sugar, and much supermarket beef and pork is also so enhanced. Lean pork chops are injected with sugar solution to make them tender in the absence of fat. Because CAFO beef oxidizes readily, becoming unappealing to the eye, it’s often treated with Sta-Red, to keep it cherry-coloured.

This is very long! I’ve made it into a Word document this time in case it vanishes again.

Suzanne, thanks for all this detailed information! A very useful and informative distillation of a wide body of literature for the benefit of those of us who are concerned about these issues.

I think we can probably go around and around in circles for ages debating the merits/accuracy of different hypotheses. As Suzanne points out, a real "proof" would require much more rigorous testing with the variables controlled for in a more subtle way. But who's to say we can't do our own mini versions of controlled trials right here? bke, you are on to something by limiting the estrogens, clearly, based on how your body and spirit has reacted to their absence. But as Jane and Suzanne are trying to say (I think) it might not be the absence of meat, but rather the absence of factory farmed meat that is the key. So maybe the next time you are facing one of those horrible cravings, you can reward yourself with a nice roasted pastured chicken or a grass fed steak. Not suggesting you do that all the time, but try it and see if it helps and monitor carefully to see if the estrogen-induced issues return with the consumption of this kind of meat. If they don't then maybe you can add it back into your diet a few times a week and see if that helps keep the cravings from developing at all while still keeping your estrogen issues at bay. I guess I see this as being all about balance. I think it is perfectly fine for people to be vegetarian or vegan if it works for them, but for many it doesn't (I am one of those -- was vegetarian for two years in my teens and became horribly anemic and weak).

I do think the cautions about processed soy products are worth heeding. If you continue to consume a lot of processed soy stuff, I would also track carefully your body's reactions. Try to keep those separate from any non-CAFO meat you may consume, to avoid confusing issues.

lhamo

"Jane, do you think that there is any chance that you just took things too far for your body by going so low fat and vegan?"

My experiments with vegan and low-fat diets were separate (oh, the dirty tricks I pull on my poor, long-suffering body >:(...) Certainly my brief vegan stint was low in animal fats, i.e. none. I'm not convinced that a disproportionate intake of vegetable oils is healthful.

Lately, I've been running 60% fat, 15% carbohydrate, 25% protein ratio (by percentage of calories), and I eat animal protein at most meals. I don't think those ratios are set in stone, but I know my body likes its protein.

Due to age/metabolism/who-knows-what, I don't thrive on ketogenic levels of macronutrients.

Thanks for the kind words, Lhamo. Yes, I do think there is a huge difference between factory-farmed and grassfed animal products. I also think that the single best thing anybody can do for their health is to buy single-ingredient foods and prepare meals from scratch in accordance with your personal requirements. As I said above, MacDougall's diet success could be mostly owed to the elimination of baked goods, processed foods, sugar, flour, and oils, which are also nixed by Paleo and Primal eaters -and those Paleo and Primal people do have a lot of success. I strongly believe that humans are not all the same; some people genuinely thrive as vegans while some as genuinely thrive on other diets. I fully agree with your mini-experiment idea. My own diet is not based on any particular dietary doctrine, but on personal experience. I'm always pleased when I come across literature explaining why something that I'm doing works, of course!

Such a tremendous amount of good information! Thanks for taking so much time to discuss this with me.

The info on the the quality/costs of grass fed meats is priceless. I wouldn't have considered all the different aspects of this. I'm going to look much more closely at what my co-op has to offer the next time I'm there. These items should say pasture raised or grass-fed correct? Not just organic, right? How about eggs and dairy-how are they typically labeled?
And what exactly are organic animal products?

There are definitely things about vegan that I don't care for. Ie: I would much rather use real butter than try and find a decent replacement. Both because I think the chemical composition of margerine is scarey stuff and because real butter tastes so much better!

Something that is just not sinking into my brain-how many units of phytoestrogens equals a unit of animal estrogen? There effects aren't equal right? I keep thinking that I can eat a lot more plant estrogens to equal animal based estrogen and that that is why vegan is better. Not that I am looking to eat as much as possible, but that the consumption is simply lower much like the caloric levels of vegan substitutes tend to be lower. Example- equal portions of soy milk vs dairy milk. I have to look at that chart you posted again.

I know McDougall's version of things is not the answer-I'm not even trying that. But niether is the SAD diet I was consuming before. What I'm doing now is tolerable but just that-tolerable. I'm not enjoying 80% of what I eat. I'm eating because I have to. Bottom line, I don't want to be a vegan, but I am concerned that it is necessary for my health. I'd love to become confident about eating animal products again!

I watched "How to win an argument..." I have written down several things to investigate and have requested "The Paleo Diet" from the library. I must admit there was a lot of interesting information in that video clip.