Can We Just DUMP all social issues?

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Originally Posted by puglogic

And that, heydude, is the situation in a nutshell. We are a very diverse country and can't agree on what's critical and what's not.

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The basic fallacy of the U.S. is that, because we speak a single language*, we have a common culture. Nothing could be further from the truth.

* I see no evidence that significant numbers of children born in the 50 states don't learn English.

The U.S. is a multinational state, with dramatically different cultures. As a child of immigrants from Ireland who grew up in the Northeastern U.S., I would be far more socially comfortable in Ireland, Greater London, or New Zealand than I would be in west Texas or North Dakota.

Because we deny these dramatic differences, our assumptions of how to structure a government are fundamentally flawed. It is hard enough to make social or tax policy in Maryland, where 90% of the population lives inside a circle 60 miles across. Trying to set more than broad standards for southern California, Maine, and Texas from Washington is insane.

[QUOTE=JaneV2.0;69803]

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

I’ll take an honest king over this kind of piffle inviting me to identify with the State anytime. I don’t always agree with Murray Rothbard, but we are in accord on this topic. ... ...

That brings up a good point. There' a cohort of people who really want an authoritarian father figure in their lives--you see it in monarchies, dictatorships, cults, traditional patriarchal families, and mainstream religions. Our Founding Fathers weren't that sort. Most of them were skeptical of mainstream religion, all rejected the monarchy, and of course they were famous for enshrining "We the People" in the Preamble to the Constitution.

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That’s right. “We the People” are signing this document assigning a central government with powers strictly limited to those enumerated herein, and explicitly forbidding extension of those limits (although I wish they had worded the commerce clause a little more tightly). The federal government was designed as a limited-use tool, not as a proxy for some kind of extended family. We allowed government some basic housekeeping chores, and would take care of the rest ourselves.

Flapdoodle about how we are all somehow connected through the nexus of government encourages all sorts of foolishness and usurpations in that it justifies the growth of government power at the expense of everything else.

[QUOTE=LDAHL;69833]

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

That’s right. “We the People” are signing this document assigning a central government with powers strictly limited to those enumerated herein, and explicitly forbidding extension of those limits (although I wish they had worded the commerce clause a little more tightly). The federal government was designed as a limited-use tool, not as a proxy for some kind of extended family. We allowed government some basic housekeeping chores, and would take care of the rest ourselves.

Flapdoodle about how we are all somehow connected through the nexus of government encourages all sorts of foolishness and usurpations in that it justifies the growth of government power at the expense of everything else.

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No it doesn't . Thinking the government is some alien, separate entity is what causes trouble. We are the government and the government is us is how we (founding fathers) set the whole thing up. We have the power to form the government, by election, voting, and we have the power to take it down, vote their butts out, rise up in opposition, like the people in VA who rose up against the invasive ultrasound. That was a clear case of 'we are the government'. We have a voice, and we should have a voice. Passively saying "oh, it's the government, not me" kind of absolves you of responsibility. And of course it's a good rallying cry to get the peasants whipped up into a frenzy of 'taking the government back', although the peasants never seem to notice that each and every election is supposedly 'taking the government back', and nobody ever asks to what? Bush? Really? Is that what the republicans want to take it back to?
What bothers me is that this view of government as enemy disenfranchises just about everyone. The government is a tool WE THE PEOPLE use to order and run our country, period, and until we start 'owning' that, we will just go on and on fighting this shadow, never winning. It's a tool. Look at it that way. If a tool isn't working for you, you go get another tool, or you reshape the tool to work. The very wealthy understand this. They've worked that tool to fit their need, then convinced the emotional masses that it's not their tool to refit. Keeping the masses mad at 'the government' is a distraction away from a simple problem of how do we retool this.
Here is an example. You have a lawn mower that is cutting too close. It scalps some of the higher parts of your gently rolling lawn. You can either mow the lower parts, raise the blade and mow the rest, or mow all at a higher blade setting. Do you get mad at the lawn mower? Do you get mad at the lawn? No, you simply look at the job , mowing, and at the tool, lawn mower, and decide the best way to do the job. You fit the mower to the job. The government is like this. We need to identify the job, then fit the tool, the government, to the job. We may need to adjust it as we go along because, like the lawn, not everything is flat and equal.

Be wary of those who try to convince you that you aren't a part of this government/country. Don't fall prey to the heightened rhetoric of non-existent scenarios like FEMA re-education death camps, or people being jailed for opposition opinion. This isn't happening. The only way these things could happen is if you abdicate yourself from the ability to stop it, (and by you I mean all of us) which is the point of telling you over and over 'move along, nothing to see here, you aren't a part of this government, you have no voice'. Don't you buy it!

You know why we went to Iraq? Sure, George Bush lied and pushed and got what he and Cheney/Rumsfeld wanted, but the Congress is to blame, and I'm blaming the Democratic congress as much as the republican. And this is why. They abdicated their responsibility to an incurious, ignorant frat boy under the excuse of 'this is beyond our control'. They let the emotional rhetoric overwhelm their reason.

Viewing government as enemy makes about as much sense as viewing the screwdriver as enemy because you can't cut a board with it.
But, it's in the best interest of some to, first, convince us to keep our hands off THEIR tool, and second, it's really the liberals, or conservatives who are the real enemy. And by that 'the government' who just happens to be controlled by 'the other side', from whom we need to TAKE THE GOVERNMENT BACK!

Government is a tool, an institution. It’s not a culture or society. Saying “we are the government, and the government is us” is like saying “we are the torque wrench, and the torque wrench is us”. Or perhaps “we are the Department of Motor Vehicles, and the Department of Motor Vehicles is us.”

The framers wisely wrote a constitution designed to keep government off our backs rather than create a genie to grant our wishes. Treating it like the head of some kind of extended family exalts the collective over the individual in a way that will ultimately be unhealthy for both. Suspicion of government power is a proud American tradition, and an excellent inoculation against Political messiahs selling the latest in snake oil.

+1 LDAHL. Well said.

I prefer "I own the torque wrench, and if it doesn't do the work I purchased it to do, I'm going to junk it and buy another." I also buy my tools with a great deal of care and scrutiny, rather than trusting mass media to tell me what to buy. No, I'm not the government, but I do make intelligent decisions on what government to purchase, based on my own unique set of needs, wishes, beliefs, and values, and NOT on which one Fox News promises me will be the best one.

If only our government came with a lifetime guarantee.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Government is a tool, an institution. It’s not a culture or society. Saying “we are the government, and the government is us” is like saying “we are the torque wrench, and the torque wrench is us”. Or perhaps “we are the Department of Motor Vehicles, and the Department of Motor Vehicles is us.”

The framers wisely wrote a constitution designed to keep government off our backs rather than create a genie to grant our wishes. Treating it like the head of some kind of extended family exalts the collective over the individual in a way that will ultimately be unhealthy for both. Suspicion of government power is a proud American tradition, and an excellent inoculation against Political messiahs selling the latest in snake oil.

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Exactly! It is a tool. When I say we are the government and the government is us, I'm simply trying to own it. I'm trying to point out that it's not some enemy to line up against a wall and shoot. It's simply the system we use to order our country. And it's worked pretty good so far.

But this isn't what the elected leaders in government, nor the screaming talking heads are saying. Oh it's the way people used to view it, know it, and we all got along so much better. Sure there were policy differences, there are two (+) parties out there who have different views of how to govern, but for the most part we all understood this and tried to find compromise. In a country this big and this complicated, not everyone is going to be satisfied, but we can find common ground if everyone just moves a bit in the other direction.
But that's not what's happening now. It's not just policy differences, it's 'the liberals hate America and are trying to ruin it'. It's 'your working harder for less because the liberals are playing class warfare...oh and they hate America!' Oh I would put up examples of liberal trashing but to tell the truth, they really aren't very good at it, although some are learning. But it's funny how the government is never the enemy when republicans are in charge...

Rabble rousers and agitators use the ignorance of the masses to their advantage. They want to get their guy elected? Saying he has another economic plan that we think will work doesn't get more than a yawn. But say the opposing guy is a Kenyan Muslim who panders to terrorist, hates America and is personally responsible for higher gas prices, your in! Tell them he is trying to take away their god and guns, and they have their pitchforks all ready to storm the village. These nasty voices don't want the masses to know that gas is a commodity that is traded on the world market, and that is what determines the price. No, they want them ignorant, and whipped into a frenzy. Why, even the guy running for President has said so, and received a round of applause from the ignorant. (who apparently didn't realize the snob talking has 3degrees)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjbJOSwq3A

Anyway, I digress. We are the government and the government is us simply acknowledges that our government isn't a dictatorship or monarchy, but a system manned by us, you, me, our neighbors. Even bae here is part of that machine, and trying, I'm sure, to order it to the best of his ability. And I'm sure he would be the first to tell you that he doesn't always get his way, but that compromise is the way. It's not his government, it's not my government, it's our government. We used to know this.

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Originally Posted by peggy

Oh it's the way people used to view it, know it, and we all got along so much better.

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When was that? 1968? The Whiskey Rebellion? Bleeding Kansas? The Civil War? The Pullman Strike? The Red Scare? We haven't fallen from grace, we were never there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

When was that? 1968? The Whiskey Rebellion? Bleeding Kansas? The Civil War? The Pullman Strike? The Red Scare? We haven't fallen from grace, we were never there in the first place.

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I think it goes back to the basic fallacy of the U.S. having a common culture.

The differences between regions and peoples in the U.S. are too big to bridge without balancing between an authoritarian government and high levels of internal violence.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]...The framers wisely wrote a constitution designed to keep government off our backs rather than create a genie to grant our wishes. Treating it like the head of some kind of extended family exalts the collective over the individual in a way that will ultimately be unhealthy for both. ....

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It disturbs me to see the riots about austerity measures in Europe. Clearly those populations view their good Nanny G as the granter of swell genie wishes. Awful.