here we go again...

i would love to homeschool DS.

but, we realized that we simply couldn't appropriately manage it. His social needs are much higher than ours, and so we were getting completely burned out just trying to get to enough group settings for him.

kindy provides us an opportunity for our normal quiet need, while meeting his social need.

if he'd been so quiet a kid as DH and I, then it would have been easy.

but, he's just a kid who loves to be around people. We balance it with plenty of quiet home time, but yeah. . .

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Originally Posted by bae

Hopefully having pointed words with Rush Limbaugh and his ilk some day :-)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...0/IMG_0386.JPG

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More power to her!
I used to fence when I was her age. Lots of fun and great exercise.

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Originally Posted by bae

Hopefully having pointed words with Rush Limbaugh and his ilk some day :-)


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...0/IMG_0386.JPG

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It sounds like she has quite a bit more to offer the world than Rush does.

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Originally Posted by chanterelle

How many eons was that?!? If it was '74 thru '78 then we must have met!! This spinner/weaver never passed up a sheep barn it it could be helped!

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1982ish... On San Juan Island. The best county fair ever, still!

There are homeschoolers who homeschool to give their children a wider education, and those who homeschool to make sure that no suspect information enters. We have friends who have homeschooled and represent the two extremes......

In the family that homeschooled three to allow them a wider education and exposure to more and to instill a genuine love of learning, one kid works in the Ecuadorian jungle with Achuar Indians, one is a professor of French literature at a university and the third is a master brewer and expert on mushrooms, his two passions that he has managed to make a living from pursuing. The other family homeschooled five, very fundamentalist (the ones in the long calico dresses, etc., who were fed a careful fundamentalist curriculum that emphasized creationism, etc.), and the three oldest girls are now all married in their early twenties, one in a shotgun wedding at 17, the other two, including one boy are still at home. The boy is quite handy, good with livestock, gardening, a chimney cleaning business, etc., but all five have very limited horizons for their lives, which is sad.

So....one size does not fit all.....I think your daughter, bae, sounds like a wonderful young woman, and much enriched from exposure to far more than she would have been likely to have been exposed to had she attended school full time. Much like our first friends' kids.

The ones who are homeschooled to be sure that no "polluting" ideas, or information that would contradict or question religious views, not so sure about that one. The kids are wonderful kids, kind, good, friendly, etc., but not very well prepared to live in any world but the very narrow one of church, home and others who think the same way. Not so sure that is good........

i think it's fine, actually.

i know many families like this -- the amish come to mind. but, they have 'safety valves' such as that rebellion time put right into their culture so that a person can make a free choice. most of them continue to be amish.

i can't fault people for wanting to share those values with their kids and raise them in the way that they think is "right." For them, those narrow options are the right options, the healthiest options -- and it may be true from their POV.

their community, their sense of identity, their simplicity, their kindness -- sounds to me like it's a good life overall.

We debated homeschooling my DSS when we got custody, as she was going into 7th grade, because she was getting out of a bad domestic violence household, and all the middle schools in Seattle with any room in them had metal detectors, police guards & gangs. She was depressed, and we feared for her mental health. Instead of homeschooling, we took a second mortgage & put her into a private girls middle school. It was a fantastic decision under the circumstances.

it's really always about weighing multiple factors. :)

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Originally Posted by Zoebird

i think it's fine, actually.

i know many families like this -- the amish come to mind. but, they have 'safety valves' such as that rebellion time put right into their culture so that a person can make a free choice. most of them continue to be amish.

i can't fault people for wanting to share those values with their kids and raise them in the way that they think is "right." For them, those narrow options are the right options, the healthiest options -- and it may be true from their POV.

their community, their sense of identity, their simplicity, their kindness -- sounds to me like it's a good life overall.

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The Amish choose to remain Amish for the most part because they don't have the education, experience or even the basic skills to function in a modern world. Teenagers turned loose on this 'foreign' world is like asking a 3rd grader to navigate high school successfully. The 3rd grader, or the Amish teens, will be scared, overwhelmed, and after the first rush of excitement, ready to 'go home'. I see the Amish as a curiosity, but a repressive society. They are extremely rigid and very harsh to those who DO choose to reject that life, another pressure point to staying in the flock. These people definitely DON'T want their kids to find themselves or their own way. Rumspringa is a farce as a way for the kids to choose. It's more a calculated way to scare the sh*t out of some impressionable teens to keep them close and in the flock.
I know a lot of people like to romanticize the Amish, but on closer inspection, what we romanticize is the simplicity of life and quaint wood stoves/oil lamps/horse and buggy. That's just the window dressing, and truthfully, something any of us could have. The rigidity of the 'reasons' is not so romantic. Looks good from the outside, but if you are a teen who loves music, or art, or travel, or yoga or just about anything outside of the narrow life focus of this group, well, you're pretty much screwed.

http://0.tqn.com/d/pregnancy/1/7/m/d/3/0812price.jpg

12 weeks.

I like the sound of your Renaissance daughter, Bae. Keep up the good work!

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Originally Posted by poetry_writer

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12 weeks.

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"Twelve weeks into your pregnancy, or 10 weeks after conception, your baby is developing fingernails. Your baby's face now has a human profile. By now your baby might be about 2 1/2 inches (61 millimeters) long from crown to rump and weigh about 1/2 ounce (14 grams)."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pre...SECTIONGROUP=2

I had an ultrasound at 9 weeks, and I miscarried. It looked almost human, and was also a blighted fetus. Live birth is amazing! It never ceased to amaze me when I was farming and having to pull stuck lambs. Watching a calf be born breech was awe inspiring. Whenever there were spontaneous abortions, I realized how important full gestation in live birth animals such as we are.

wow, peggy, that was really condescending.

you assume that the amish are fully unenlightened as a community, unaware of or without any access to modernity. that is really condescending and a deep misunderstanding of the amish.

second, you assume that i am "romanticizing" the amish (or any insular community) with no awareness of my understanding of or experience with this community.

to characterize the amish participating in rumspringa as "unleashing a 3rd grader into the modern world" is grossly inaccurate.

90% of amish youth (source) between ages 16 and 27 spend time in their community's 'youth groups' that allow them to experiment with aspects of modernity, seek educational opportunities (usually in trade schools) as well as work within their communities. Most of these young people continue to live at home, work within their family's businesses, and still have a lot of fun as young people exploring the modern world from the safety of their community.

These youth groups can be small or large, with most of them sitting between 75 and 125 young people at any given time. Some will be more conservative and spend more time doing "churchy" things, while others will be more rambunctious and go so far as to own cars, travel to cities, have computers, cell phones, and other technologies, watch television, listen to a variety of music, and go to movies.

Typically, by the time a young person is 27 (and usually before), they are encouraged to make a choice to join the church or 'drift away' entirely and may be shunned (they may also not be shunned, though it is still worthwhile to recognize that the young people are still considered very separate from the rest of the community).

I also have found in my own experience with amish families -- such as being in a buying group from one of the farms that was within about 45 minutes drive of our place -- that the children are quite savvy and very capable at very young ages, girls included. Part of it is the life of work, the skills that they learn outside of their education -- which in pennsylvania must continue up to age 13 and meet the curricula standards of the state up until 8th grade.

I met several young amish women who had decided to become nurses and then ultimately midwives for their communities, who are also still active in their midwifery community that is not amish (professional organizations). These young women are as educated and capable as their peers -- and as enlightened and intelligent. And, their skill is invaluable.

Likewise, I knew a family of builders -- all amish -- whose young men knew several trades each in relation to building. They built "english" homes and could even do the electrical fitting, the HVAC, and other elements that they -- themselves -- do not use. Most of the young men, during their rumspringa time (or youth) went to trade schools in addition to apprenticing within their communities.

Most of the amish people whom I'd met over the decade of being in PA and meeting many different families (through different ways) showed a very quiet and closed community of people who were very intelligent, vibrant, and enlightened. They were widely read and had very clear sense of business, farming, trades, and the politics involved with all of this (laws, regulations, and so on) -- and they also went and spoke at various governmental meetings that would impact their ability to work and trade according to their values and needs.

Are there also problems in the amish community? Yes, there are problems with in it.

There are several different kinds of problems -- everything from abuse in families, hiding of people with disabilities, and genetic health problems that are as yet to be solved (though there are several 'english' doctors who are working on that specifically -- one of them formerly amish himself, but desiring to go to medical school, he did, and simply "missed the time" that he could become amish. in deciding to stick with modern medicine as a profession -- he simply 'drifted away' from the amish community. And yet, not fully shunned, he is their go-to physician for his community, and he's managed to find a treatment for three common genetic diseases -- I'll look for the source, it was a local newspaper article in the Lancaster New Era newspaper from about 5-6 years ago).

I would also venture out and say that I know many families of traditional, "weird" christian groups. I am very curious about people and their lifestyles.

I grew up with a family that was "Free Will Baptist." They had very strict lifestyles and a very insular community. The family that I knew had three girls and a boy. The three girls became nurses, and the boy became a welder. They are all married, have children, and are doing well. Their community allows computers (so i found them on FB), but doesn't allow tv, movies, or non-church music. They still live near their parents, still go to the same church, still follow the same dress codes.

They were not home schooled -- they went to the church's school (which is much the same in a lot of ways). They were normal, fun kids -- as far as I could tell -- and I enjoyed their company. I often went to church events with them, over to their church-friends homes, and even camping with them one week. While I never particularly bought into their religious views, they always seemed like nice, normal people to me. Several of their church friends were home schooled, but their mother worked to bring in more income. Dad was a mechanic, mom worked as a secretary.

I knew several other families of various religions -- mostly modern folks of various indian religions, muslim families, jewish families, and several kinds of christian families.

I have always been curious about groups and communities that "close in" or hold people close. I get concerned about cults, of course, but I seem to feel a difference between these more isolated/insulated communities and cults (usually in that they are not dealing with a hierarchical structure, that each family has it's own agency and sovereignty, and that individuals can walk away, even though it may be difficult).

I grew up for many years in Amish country. The Amish helped take care of my grandfather, their neighbor, when he was in his 90s. I still drop by and visit with some of them when I'm back in the area. We don't Skype much.

So what I'll say about Peggy's usual gemmummelt is sis mer iwwel.

First of all, what the hell are you talking about bae?!! If you weren't so intent on impressing everyone with your dazzling command of foreign language (and dead language) and actually trying to communicate an idea, perhaps folks would be a bit more impressed! I'm mumbling...What?
I don't think I'm being harsh on the Amish. this is the life they choose, fine. There is no requirement to admire it. I don't, obviously. I'm not talking about the quaint window dressing we all see, but the realities of the life. We can all admire simple living and buggies and oil lamps and farming. I do. But I admire it as a CHOICE, and not as some edict from god. Or rather the leading elder of the order, who has surprising latitude to enforce his interpretation of the 'rules'.
8th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else. These people don't just have a comfortable relationship with computers or technology, and although you say you know those who do, we know that isn't the norm. It just isn't. That's their whole thing, remember? Being shunned by your community, and even your parents is a very big pressure on young people. People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.
They can certainly choose this, that's their right. It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.
So, if a kid wants to be a yoga instructor? How would they fare there? Do you think they could stay in their community and do this? I don't think so. What about being an artist? or a Musician? Or a scientist? And what if this kid was a woman? This community has a fairly narrow focus on approved careers. And if you want something different? Sorry. You have to choose between your parents, friends, and community and the thing that floats your boat. I don't think I'm being condescending. Anyone who has lived an extremely sheltered life would be overwhelmed by modern American life. We have fundamentalist who won't let their kids go to public school because they fear the messages and ideas 'out there', but these people still have TVs and magazines and presumably function in the modern world. Take even those modern things away and you have a pretty sheltered person, innocent and ignorant of modern ways. Mind you, that doesn't equal to stupid, it just means what it says, ignorant of the ways.
Do you think Amish sit around the table talking politics? Or modern music, movies, the art museum, fencing, world languages, science, world politics, advances in medicine, business, or a zillion other things we talk about and take for granted everyone knows even a little about.
Michael Jackson. You probably don't listen to him, or even admire his music, but you know who he is. And if someone makes a reference to him, in what ever context, you probably get it. That's a cultural reference. And there are a million of those we don't even think about that color our everyday lives. And someone like bae might as well be a space alien with his constant 'impressive' use of Latin and obscure historical references (and not so obscure) How many Amish do you think have read 1984? or Animal farm? of Atlas Shrugged? Or Catcher in the Rye?
This is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to demonize them, but I'm also not romanticizing them either. They are what they are. A fairly closed, strict religious sect, quaint buggies aside.

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Originally Posted by poetry_writer

http://0.tqn.com/d/pregnancy/1/7/m/d/3/0812price.jpg

12 weeks.

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As my dear husband likes to say, "you can stick a candle in a cow patty, but that don't make it a birthday cake"
I'm fairly certain an ape baby at 12 weeks looks a lot like this.

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As my dear husband likes to say, "you can stick a candle in a cow patty, but that don't make it a birthday cake"

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I WILL be stealing this phrase! Thanks...

peggy,

wow, just, wow.

ok, where to begin.

in order to be educated and capable, one doesn't require a formal education.

The reality is that just because the education isn't formal after a certain point doesn't mean that learning (and living) stops. It just means that it's channelled in directions that the community feels is valuable.

I have pointed out where young women are becoming nurse-midwives, where young men are out learning trades, and this means that many are seeking education beyond high school. How could they possibly qualify for these programs if they weren't capable because they had nothing greater than an 8th grade education?

The reality is, they do have an education. it doesn't look like a typical high school education, but they are literate, capable, and hard working. There's no reason why they shouldn't be accepted, so long as they can fulfill the prerequisites to get in and then finish the coursework satisfactorily to get their degrees.

And, many of them do go on to college. Here is an article about one girl and her sister who attend college near their amish family.

There is a lot that is relevant in that article-- one think that strikes me though is that this girl -- with only an 8th grade education -- learned email in one try. Because, guess what? It's not that hard. And, she has close connections to her family, and wants to become a midwife. She probably is managing to use a computer every day -- because she's smart and capable.

This is not to say that it is easy for young people who choose not to become amish. 5-20% of amish youth choose not to. And yes, some are shunned. But, from what I can tell from my reading (online, since I was looking for articles to demonstrate my own experience), the ex-amish population is very supportive in providing for these amish youth looking to find their way and many still maintain connections to their amish communities.

Finally, you state that you do not believe that the amish talk about politics at the dinner table. This always depends upon the family. I know many non-amish families who do not talk about politics at the dinner table. That being said, I do know that many amish are very much involved in politics and political life, as a means of protecting and preserving their way of life.

For example, any laws related to the dairy industry and the production of raw milk would be of great interest to the farm where we would go for/with our buyers club. we were seeking them out for raw milk, and the regulations are strict. any political action they can do in that regard, they will -- to protect their way of life and their livelihood.

On the flip side, there are also concessions to modernity. Pastuerization and refrigeration of dairy before it goes to market is important (if you are doing that instead of the regulations for raw dairy). This means that many amish actually have some pretty hefty mechanical equipment -- modern equipment -- in their dairies.

And this is relevant because -- while we often think of them as shunning everything for their quaint buggies -- they also are subject to many health and safety regulations as their part of the food supply. Their religious exemption doesn't work.

What is interesting is that the dairies that dealt in pasteurized dairy around the stoltzfous farm (one of many) where we got our raw dairy, formed an independent company that owned and maintained those items, and not being a "person," it technically didn't break the religious rules for people using mechanized equipment.

But, whenever those laws and regulations are up for question or change, the amish community is quite up-front about and in the political process, discussing the benefits and drawbacks of different elements of a given regulation in relation not only to their work, but also to their way of life.

and fwiw, when i was out and about in and around lancaster county, i saw many amish people (and families) at the public library checking out all manner of books, communicating with people in the broader community, and even taking course work that might be interesting to them. my MIL takes a 'tatting' class (a form of lace making, i think) with several amish women and girls, who apparently are quite good at it and want to use the technique in some of the handicrafts that they make and sell in their family's shop in the primary amish-related tourist district. my MIL says that they are really vibrant, and that they really didn't' 'get" Eat Pay Love, though they all ready it because the title was so nice.

They didn't understand why she left her husband and why she didn't want children, but they thought she had a fun adventure.

So you can go right on thinking that these are backwards people and you are not being disparaging. And, you can go on thinking that I'm romanticizing people whom I actually knew and talked to for years.

But that doesn't make it so.

red fox,

yes, gestation is everything. viability is wrapped up in it. and from there, legal personhood, really.

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Originally Posted by Zoebird

Finally, you state that you do not believe that the amish talk about politics at the dinner table.

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I've eaten hundreds of meals at Amish dinner tables. I suspect Peggy has eaten...none.

Yet she somehow knows what they talk about...

I consulted with an Amish friend of mine just last week about some sustainable agriculture legislation we are working on here. He knew more than most of our highly-paid consultants....

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Originally Posted by peggy

As my dear husband likes to say, "you can stick a candle in a cow patty, but that don't make it a birthday cake"
I'm fairly certain an ape baby at 12 weeks looks a lot like this.

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Could you post a picture of an ape baby ultrasound? Are you saying babies are on the same level as an ape? Not sure of your point.

Zoe, please re-read my post. I never said they were ignorant, or stupid, or illiterate. What I said was, they are a closed society with fairly strict rules, and IF a kid wanted to pursue art or dance or music, or science, or electrician or nuclear engineer, or travel, or yoga instruction, or a zillion other career paths, they had to basically leave their community and seek it elsewhere. And even though I haven't sat at 'hundreds' of Amish dinner tables, I'm pretty sure their parents aren't encouraging them to pursue these other careers. I'm pretty sure farming and related skills, equipment repair, animal husbandry, etc...are the approved careers. I'll bet fashion design isn't one of them.
I never said they don't set aside their 'rules' to make items for the tourist, but that is a reality of the modern world they had to adjust to. Same with hay balers and such. (Pulled by horses) These are necessary evils they had to incorporate to survive. And I'm sure they know what regulations they need to follow in order to sell their product. Again, I never said I thought they were stupid.
Despite your related stories, I know Amish aren't regularly using computers, going to college, traveling anywhere, watching movies, and integrating their community in the big wide world. I didn't say they live in a cave, I just said they live outside the normal society. And no, the young aren't prepared to live outside that society, which would account for such a small number leaving. When you have to go by horse and buggy you can't get very far from home. And when the modern world, i.e. the world in which their community is located, expects you to at least have a 12th grade education, or beyond, then no, you aren't prepared to live in that world. You said oh but they do continue their education in things beneficial to their community. Well duh! But there really isn't a lot of call for buggy repair in the modern world. OK, that's exaggeration, to a point. Sure, the girls are all taught the good homemaking skills, and I'm pretty sure each community has at least one midwife. That has been true for most communities worldwide since ancient times. These are needed skills in that community. But how many of those girls are encouraged to fence, or target shoot, for instance, or get involved in politics, or fashion design, or evolutionary biology, or anything a smart girl might find an interest in? How many girls do you think are even encouraged to pursue buggy repair, or engine repair (for the hay baler). I'm guessing zero. This is what I mean by a repressive society.

I don't know why you all are getting so upset because I don't happen to admire a closed religious sect that shuns the modern world that is all around them. They just seem stuck in time. Quaint, sure, but not something I admire. What the english see is not the everyday lives, which they keep very private. I never condemned them, just said I don't admire them. And i feel sorry for any kid in that society who yearns to pursue anything other than the narrow list of approved career choices. Not much choice there.

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Originally Posted by poetry_writer

Could you post a picture of an ape baby ultrasound? Are you saying babies are on the same level as an ape? Not sure of your point.

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Not really sure of your point in posting the picture. I'm assuming since this thread is about government intrusion in mandating an unnecessary medical procedure before a woman can seek a legal procedure of abortion, you posted the picture as your 'proof' that we are killing babies. And so I remarked that a picture of a fetus doesn't prove anything. A picture doesn't prove viability.
http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php As you can see, embryos at the stage when most are aborted don't really resemble 'humans' if we are going by pictures to judge.
It was surprisingly hard to find ape embryo ultrasounds. Maybe because they don't seem to give signs of being pregnant until fairly close to delivery, I don't know. There were lots of pictures of ultrasounds of ape hearts and other internal organs on vet websites. I did find one embryo picture but then lost it and couldn't find it again. It did look remarkably like your photo, but with a tail. (we too have 'tails' in the beginning)

On the topic of intrusive government programs, are the Amish exempt from Obamacare? I thought at least some branches proscribed insurance, as well as most medical technologies.

The fiction that if we just knew what fetuses looked like, we'd all assume a pro-forced birth stance is apparently behind these intrusive, paternalistic laws. And anyone who thinks being a frankly unwanted child is less painful than an early-term abortion isn't applying logic, IMO.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

The fiction that if we just knew what fetuses looked like, we'd all assume a pro-forced birth stance is apparently behind these intrusive, paternalistic laws. And anyone who thinks being a frankly unwanted child is less painful than an early-term abortion isn't applying logic, IMO.

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+1

I have no trouble believing where you are getting at in general Peggy, it is afterall some people's reported experience just growing up in small towns, the insularity etc.. I really think it is common knowledge that community and culture especially small scale and tight knit, and not just government, can be repressive (although little is as brutal as government is when it turns totalitarian).

Heck most people probably experience this to some degree just in their families. There are approved and unapproved paths (and this goes far beyond simple morals) and THAT'S JUST THAT (after all how many parents would say: music, art, dance, yoga, travel - how are you going to make a living? how about getting a business degree? .... and that's the mild form).

But .... I don't actually know that much about the Amish in particular. I think the decision to stop at a certain level of technology has some wisdom (heck anti-civ types would take us back much further than that - for anti-civs: what is the fate of women in a society with no technology when it seems so many used to die in childbirth?).

The Amish in general don't "stop at some level in technology". They aren't trying to live in some past world.

They do however adopt new technology very mindfully, after evaluating how the technology will influence their culture and their land. I've known Amish farmers engaged in decades-long research projects to see how various tools and methods play out over time.

There could be something important for the rest of us to learn from this. If more of us took the time to sit down to dinner with our Amish neighbors, instead of caricaturing them....

Wednesday I leave for a long weekend in Lancaster Pa. There is a big quilt show that I have been attending every year for 20 years. We generally stay in Bird-in-Hand and Intercourse.

This of course is in the middle of a very commercial area of Amish farms. The first years we went there were gas lamps in the fabric stores and the streets rolled up at 5 pm except for a few restaurants. One of the first years we were at a fabric store and they had a stack of quilts on a bed. They would turn them back for customers to see and the owner of the store only had one helper and happened to mention that they had to wait for help to get them back right on the bed. We volunteered to help and spent an hour helping a young girl turn quilts and move quilts as many had been sold and they invited us to share lunch with them in the back of the store. More like a back porch. These were older women and they had a system. Some liked to piece the quilts, some liked to quilt and the more gregarious and least shy worked in the store. It was a wonderful experience for us. There were no men as they were in the fields plowing and were going to another farm for lunch as they bought the equipment with them to help. They shared equipment. They had no phone in the house, but even back then there was a phone in the garage. My mother in law had quite a conversation with one of the women as they shared a love of weaving and both had grandchildren and she would go there several times a year and always stop and chat with her.
Fast forward and over these twenty years we have seen gas lamps in the stores give way to electric lights, yet the young women still work there. Many of the farms have struggled to stay solvent so they often sell to the public.
I do think they are very aware of politics since many laws apply to them as well- I have seen many an Amish man sitting reading the paper. The kids go to schoolhouses on scooters and by walking, carrying their lunch pails. Like any farm area, the school year is somewhat dictated by crops going in and coming out, and selling and putting food up.

It makes me sad to see this area north of Lancaster so commercial now, but south of Lancaster there is little commercialization. Believe me, you don't want to get stuck in the backroads in the dark unless you know where you are going as there is not a light for miles. The stores are open later, even till Midnight Friday night, and the stores have websites. But everything that can close will do so on Sunday. I would personally like to see that happen here- our lives are too hectic and a family day for everyone that can would be great I think.

Now we have Amish and Mennonites flocking to the East of Lake Ontario because land is cheap, and there is also a newer community in Southern NY and there have been a few problems as some of their ways are foreign and like any small town, there are lots of people doing things they way they always have with people they have always known.

If I have to say one thing about the Amish is that they take care of their own. If a barn burns down, they are all there raising a new one. They share tools and skills. If a person gets too old they find something for them to do. There is a fabric store we have gone to for all these years and the once robust female who ran the place had a stroke and she still is at the store, talking to customers from a stool. Through the years many of the young women we encountered were less shy than the local home schooled Christian girls I have run across who seem to me to be more isolated. They seemed to be more confident and less scared.

We could greatly benefit by adopting some of their ways. Of course, my observations are just that, observations based on my limited view of my tiny slice of the world.

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Originally Posted by morris_rl

If those of a liberal political bent are failing to even replace their numbers and those of a more conservative political bent are increasing in numbers and many of them are not being indoctrinated in the public school system, what implications do you think this will have over the next 30 to 40 years in the social and political spheres?

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Hopefully some of them will see the light and leave the cult. It is possible....see the No Longer Quivering website for testimonials.

http://nolongerquivering.com/

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

Wednesday I leave for a long weekend in Lancaster Pa. There is a big quilt show that I have been attending every year for 20 years. We generally stay in Bird-in-Hand and Intercourse.

This of course is in the middle of a very commercial area of Amish farms. The first years we went there were gas lamps in the fabric stores and the streets rolled up at 5 pm except for a few restaurants. One of the first years we were at a fabric store and they had a stack of quilts on a bed. They would turn them back for customers to see and the owner of the store only had one helper and happened to mention that they had to wait for help to get them back right on the bed. We volunteered to help and spent an hour helping a young girl turn quilts and move quilts as many had been sold and they invited us to share lunch with them in the back of the store. More like a back porch. These were older women and they had a system. Some liked to piece the quilts, some liked to quilt and the more gregarious and least shy worked in the store. It was a wonderful experience for us. There were no men as they were in the fields plowing and were going to another farm for lunch as they bought the equipment with them to help. They shared equipment. They had no phone in the house, but even back then there was a phone in the garage. My mother in law had quite a conversation with one of the women as they shared a love of weaving and both had grandchildren and she would go there several times a year and always stop and chat with her.
Fast forward and over these twenty years we have seen gas lamps in the stores give way to electric lights, yet the young women still work there. Many of the farms have struggled to stay solvent so they often sell to the public.
I do think they are very aware of politics since many laws apply to them as well- I have seen many an Amish man sitting reading the paper. The kids go to schoolhouses on scooters and by walking, carrying their lunch pails. Like any farm area, the school year is somewhat dictated by crops going in and coming out, and selling and putting food up.

It makes me sad to see this area north of Lancaster so commercial now, but south of Lancaster there is little commercialization. Believe me, you don't want to get stuck in the back roads in the dark unless you know where you are going as there is not a light for miles. The stores are open later, even till Midnight Friday night, and the stores have websites. But everything that can close will do so on Sunday. I would personally like to see that happen here- our lives are too hectic and a family day for everyone that can would be great I think.

Now we have Amish and Mennonites flocking to the East of Lake Ontario because land is cheap, and there is also a newer community in Southern NY and there have been a few problems as some of their ways are foreign and like any small town, there are lots of people doing things they way they always have with people they have always known.

If I have to say one thing about the Amish is that they take care of their own. If a barn burns down, they are all there raising a new one. They share tools and skills. If a person gets too old they find something for them to do. There is a fabric store we have gone to for all these years and the once robust female who ran the place had a stroke and she still is at the store, talking to customers from a stool. Through the years many of the young women we encountered were less shy than the local home schooled Christian girls I have run across who seem to me to be more isolated. They seemed to be more confident and less scared.

We could greatly benefit by adopting some of their ways. Of course, my observations are just that, observations based on my limited view of my tiny slice of the world.

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Yes yes, they quilt and sew and eat lunch and read the newspaper....>8)
I never said I thought they were worms or idiots, or muzzled. You think I'm surprised they TALKED to you? (here's my surprised face :0!) You all are sure reading a lot into my posts that isn't there.

ANM got it. I was talking about repressive societies. Not just individual families but as a culture. And yes, some towns are like that except if you decide to go off and become a nuclear scientist I'm pretty sure those towns will let you move back and live with them and belong to their church. Not so with the Amish. If you reject the religion/lifestyle, you're lost. Have you ever heard of anyone 'becoming Amish'? Probably not. That is a closed society. You are born into it and once you're out, you're out. No getting back in. There are some fundamentalist churches/groups who are quite repressive, but even there if you choose to be an evolutionary scientist, they will eventually come around and welcome you into their flock, although they will continue to try to show you the evil of your ways. ;)
Of course they are friendly to english. They want you to buy their products after all, they are business people. But don't think you are privy to their inner lives. You can not be, ever.
These are my observations too, which apparently are WRONG and I'm not allowed to have. So, go ahead and tell me how they eat REAL food, and can count past 100 and put their pants on one leg at a time. But if you re-read my posts you'll see that's not why I don't admire them.
sheesh! I guess it's a faux pas to say I don't admire the Amish. Kind of a requirement for the SL crowd. PC even!
*I also evaluate each new technology very carefully, as I think most on here do, but I also value sending my daughter to school beyond the 8th grade. And even if my kids pursued a career I didn't think was great, I certainly wouldn't shun them or tell them they can never rejoin my society/church. Or marry the good little Amish girl down the road. Another hallmark of a repressive society. You can't marry out of the faith.

I am *reading* your post. You expect me to "read into" your post that you MEANT that you felt these children (poor kids!) were sadly not being encourage to "pursue their dreams!" beyond what their community values or they would be shunned!

But here is what you WROTE:

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Originally Posted by peggy

I'm not talking about the quaint window dressing we all see, but the realities of the life. We can all admire simple living and buggies and oil lamps and farming. I do. But I admire it as a CHOICE, and not as some edict from god. Or rather the leading elder of the order, who has surprising latitude to enforce his interpretation of the 'rules'.

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It's not a choice.

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8th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else.

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Really, I'm reading into this?

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These people don't just have a comfortable relationship with computers or technology, and although you say you know those who do, we know that isn't the norm.

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"we" do? evidence?

Oh, wait, here is your evidence:

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It just isn't. That's their whole thing, remember?

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Obviously, you are very ignorant of the amish. Do I know about the amish? DO i remember? Yes. What about you?

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Being shunned by your community, and even your parents is a very big pressure on young people. People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.

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Yes, and obviously this is not a problem of just the amish, as you write. If this was your whole point, why make all of the other ignorant, condescending statements that you made?

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They can certainly choose this, that's their right. It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.

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Yes, That's right. I'm reading into your opinion that you find these people "non productive and backwards."

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So, if a kid wants to be a yoga instructor? How would they fare there? Do you think they could stay in their community and do this? I don't think so. What about being an artist? or a Musician? Or a scientist? And what if this kid was a woman? This community has a fairly narrow focus on approved careers. And if you want something different? Sorry. You have to choose between your parents, friends, and community and the thing that floats your boat.

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As evidenced, a kid can choose to leave, and they may not be fully shunned by their community. I've given several examples.

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I don't think I'm being condescending. Anyone who has lived an extremely sheltered life would be overwhelmed by modern American life.

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Culture shock is not a terminal disease. Culture shock can be overcome, and in most instances, is. And even if it is overcome, often people choose to go back to their original culture/environment anyway. It is, perhaps, a more educated choice.

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We have fundamentalist who won't let their kids go to public school because they fear the messages and ideas 'out there', but these people still have TVs and magazines and presumably function in the modern world. Take even those modern things away and you have a pretty sheltered person, innocent and ignorant of modern ways. Mind you, that doesn't equal to stupid, it just means what it says, ignorant of the ways.

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Right, and ignorance can be overcome.

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Do you think Amish sit around the table talking politics?

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Yes.

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Or modern music, movies, the art museum, fencing, world languages, science, world politics, advances in medicine, business, or a zillion other things we talk about and take for granted everyone knows even a little about.

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Yes, to many of these things (not music or movies, but pretty much the rest of it).

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Michael Jackson. You probably don't listen to him, or even admire his music, but you know who he is. And if someone makes a reference to him, in what ever context, you probably get it. That's a cultural reference.

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Right, without knowing all the cultural references of another culture, all is lost. I live in NZ. I don't get 90% of cultural references here. Seriously.

Poor me, so backwards and unproductive and not able to make a choice about how to live!

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And there are a million of those we don't even think about that color our everyday lives. . . . How many Amish do you think have read 1984? or Animal farm? of Atlas Shrugged? Or Catcher in the Rye?

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Right, because without these things, we just can't have a good life in the modern world, or have a real choice in regards to deciding not to continue in modern life or their own traditions.

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This is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to demonize them, but I'm also not romanticizing them either. They are what they are. A fairly closed, strict religious sect, quaint buggies aside.

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So, this is what you are talking about?

That these people are ignorant, non-productive, and backward and incapable of making it in the modern world, and because of that, incapable of having a choice in regards to whether or not to continue in the modern world or be amish?

Demonized view? no.

Ignorant and condescending? yes.

For whatever it is worth, I greatly dislike the intellectual dishonesty of not owning the statements that you make, and then blaming the reader for "not understanding what you meant."

It is easy enough to communicate clearly. You have editing options on this forum, even.

I found many of the statements condescending to me personally, because it was asserting that I don't know what I know. That I don't know amish people, or that I don't know about their lives, and that I haven't studied them in academic context even (which I have). That is condescending.

Secondarily, I found many of the statements absolutely ignorant about the amish and disparaging of them in the process. Honestly, to call them -- repeatedly -- ignorant and backwards, and then assert that you did not mean/say those things?

I honestly don't know how to respond to that. Other than with shock, and a clear quoted post -- quoting back your own statements to you.

If you would like, you can substitute the term "peggy" and "peggy's community" for every statement, and see whether it holds up. See whether you would feel disparaged by it.

"Peggy is non productive, ignorant, and backwards, only capable of washing toilets, entirely overwhelmed by a culture that she has never experienced such that any choice she might make to return to her own culture is not really a choice."

Yeah, it's disparaging, isn't it?

no , it's not because it doesn't make any sense. I never once called them ignorant and backwards, which by the way isn't the same thing. A person can be ignorant of many things but not be backwards.
So, you assert that the Amish are just like us except they drive buggies. Just as educated, just as worldly, just as prepared to exist in a 21st century world. They are scientist, and doctors, and lawyers, and electricians, and librarians, and college professors, and authors, and artist and musicians, and yoga instructors, and world travelers, and chefs, taxi drivers and airplane pilots, and and and....so, why exactly do they shun cars? Why do they not have electricity? Or modern pluming? Or encourage their kids to pursue their dreams? And why is it so important to you I admire these people? I don't denigrate these people, I just don't admire them. That's not condescending. That's just looking at it in a realist way. The other side of not admiring them is not disgust or hatred. It's ambivalent, at best. I just refuse to romanticize them.
Maybe you think it's quaint that their kids have very little choice in their futures. It's their kids after all, and they do look sooo cute in those pictures of them peeking out the back of the buggy. I just take a different look and see young girls, about bae's daughters age, who couldn't even dream of doing 90% of the things bae's daughter gets to do and enjoys. And it's BECAUSE I respect those little girls that I say I feel sorry for them in that they won't be able to have those advantages of culture, education, experience that bae's daughter has. Simplicity, as a choice, is fantastic, and freeing for those who choose it freely. Being forced to choose between your family and community and those experiences bae's daughter enjoys at the encouragement of her family is not choice, really. How many people choose to turn their backs on their family and community. Not many.
You see that as condescending. It's not, but apparently you think so. I see it as lack of opportunity for these bright young people. This is what I've said before. You just refuse to read it.

So, if they leave they might not be FULLY shunned by their families? Maybe just a little shunned? Do you read what you write? Would you want to be ANY shunned by your family? How is that not incredible pressure on these young people?
I think it's you who has an unrealistic view of this society.
http://www.amish.net/faq.asp
Answer: The Amish children do not attend formal schooling past the eighth grade. Amish parents provide training from an early age through young adults, teaching them the skills necessary to be farmers, or other skills, i.e., carpenters and parents. This training prepares them much better for their life as an Amish adult than what they would receive in formal schooling. The issue of compulsory school attendance until age 16 was decided as the result of the arrest and conviction by Greene County, Wisconsin, authorities, of three fathers (two Amish and one Mennonite). The United States Supreme Court in the case of Wisconsin vs. Yoder ruled in l972 that it was unconstitutional to force the Amish into high school. You will find excellent information on the subject of Amish schooling and the Supreme Court Decision at the website of the group who defended the Amish, The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom, headed by the Rev. William C. Lindholm, Chairman.

This is all I'm saying. Quit reading more into it than I intend. I never said they were backwards. i just said they live on the edge of this 21st century civilization. I feel sorry for the kids who, I'm sure like most kids, see this exciting world and can't really join it without leaving their families/communities/church.

Admittedly it's probably the religious aspect I don't like. I guess it's really kind of a cult when you think about it. A rather harmless, non threatening cult, but a cult none the less. Now I'm sure you'll find something horrible about me saying that.
Do you think those polygamist Mormons in Texas are a cult? Harmless and to be admired? How are they different than the Amish, besides the obvious more than one wife? Look beyond the cute dresses, which by the way, unless you didn't notice, are exactly the same with small variation in color, no pattern. Do you think they all just happen to share the same style sense or is there something else going on there?

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You admire the Amish, that's obvious. Doesn't mean you want to be Amish. I don't, also obvious. Doesn't mean I hate or despise the Amish. It doesn't make one or the other of us right or wrong. It's just two observations on this world of ours.

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Originally Posted by peggy

Yes yes, they quilt and sew and eat lunch and read the newspaper....>8)
I never said I thought they were worms or idiots, or muzzled. You think I'm surprised they TALKED to you? (here's my surprised face :0!) You all are sure reading a lot into my posts that isn't there.

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My post wasn't about you. It was about me and my experiences.

Peggy,

I never asserted that they are "just like us except that they drive buggies." If I did, please quote my statements directly.

Second, you asserted in post 85:

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It's also my right to say I think it's a rather non-productive community at the very least, and terribly regressive at the most.

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th grade, despite some people's thought, does not prepare you for the realities of modern life. Sure, it prepares you to wait on tables, or scrub toilets, but not much else.

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A non-productive, backwards (that's what regressive means) who are only prepared to wait on tables or scrub toilets.

Despite evidence to the contrary.

I never asked you to "admire" them. I found your statements ignorant and condescending towards the amish and towards me and my experience of them. It's not at all important that you 'admire' anyone -- but i certainly expect that people of divergent world views from yours at least be accorded the respect that you feel that you deserve.

For the rest of it, that will have to wait.

But you are only digging for yourself a deeper hole to work your way out of. Perhaps you'll want to read your post and do the edit function?

Can I call a time-out and make the observation that this misunderstanding seems to be escalating? I suspect the medium rather than the message. It's impossible to hear affect and all the other body-cues in communication on these pages.

Peggy,

Yes, it is clear we have a difference of opinion. Of that, I do not care. What I do care about is when you are condescending toward me in the posts, as well as making all manner of false assumptions and accusations, as well as making disparaging remarks regarding the Amish.

You make two statements that you assert is your "point." The first, in post 85 is as follows:

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People do what they know, largely, in this closed community as well as the greater modern community. It's a whole lot easier to just go with the flow rather than seek further education, without family support, separate yourself from the community you grew up with knowing this community now say you as a traitor, and cast yourself into an unknown, unfamiliar world.

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and in post 115

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I just take a different look and see young girls, about bae's daughters age, who couldn't even dream of doing 90% of the things bae's daughter gets to do and enjoys. And it's BECAUSE I respect those little girls that I say I feel sorry for them in that they won't be able to have those advantages of culture, education, experience that bae's daughter has.

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With these, I can agree. That is to say, I can agree with the sentiment, and with the criticism of the amish culture in regards to this -- though the second one includes "pity" which I consider condescending.

Nevertheless, these opinions are fine by me.

Everything else -- which you seem to assert as evidence (with the exception of the amish.net information which would constitute as evidence) -- falls into wild claims and misinformation.

Foremost, you asserted that the amish would simply not survive in the 21st century world. Likewise, that they are "shunned" and therefore it's not a real choice.

I provided evidence to the contrary.

First, as much as 20% of the young people choose not to continue to be amish. This is a fairly large retention rate, I grant you. But does this per se demonstrate that they 'do not have a choice?' No.

It is easier to "go with the flow?" Yes, it is. And, the modern world may be overwhelming for many amish youth. And, those reasons may be part of why 80% choose to become amish.

But, because 20% can and do choose to leave, it certainly demonstrates that these people are actively choosing -- one way or the other, and that they have the opportunity to choose.

Likewise, you assert that they are "simply not prepared." You assert that they are not educated enough. I provided (linked) a direct story of a young woman who was in college and preparing to become a nurse and midwife. Obviously, while her formal education ended at age 13, she still had other knowledge, skills, and education on which to build this college degree and career. She also -- as it said in the article -- learned to use email in one try, and is likely even far more familiar with computers now.

In addition, in many other articles online, many ex-amish choose a wide variety of careers, from being musicians to doctors, lawyers, scientists, college professors and whatever else. Most of them -- because it is easy for them and they can make a comfortable living -- head into trades. This qualifies -- in my opinion at least -- as "making it in the 21st century."

Finally that article also demonstrated that this young woman was not shunned. I also asserted the story of an ex-amish doctor who still lives close to his family and has close ties to the amish community. He also is not shunned.

Shunning is complex, and usually done if a person is considered a "bad influence" on the family or youth in general. A person who is doing good work -- though outside the bounds of being amish -- likely will not be shunned by their families.

You assert that you are simply taking a 'realistic' view and accuse me of "admiring" the "quaint" amish and "romanticizing" them.

To form a realistic view, one has to have knowledge. That involves -- in these sorts of forums -- the accumulation of evidence. You provide that evidence as you go, to back up your claims. I have provided that. It demonstrates that my view *is* realistic.

Yes, you are welcome to your opinion and your sorry feelings for the amish. But, you are not welcome to be condescending toward me, or disparaging to another culture that you obviously have very little knowledge of. It is simply inappropriate.

I wouldn't tolerate it if you had put "Poor Black People in West Philly" as the group, or "Hispanics" or "illegal immigrants" or what have you. Why should I tolerate it since they are amish?

And hiding behind "oh well, we have to agree to disagree." I refuse to "agree to disagree" with your disparaging remarks. It's simply not just to do so.

red fox,

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept the "limitations of the medium" excuse here.

Foremost, I can only assume that most of us are familiar with this medium and it's limitations. Peggy, for example, has been utilizing this forum since January 2011. So, she has at least 1 yrs experience with this medium. I joined in April 2011, and so have a bit less. But beyond that, I have been on forums since 1994, which means that I pretty much understand the limitations of this medium.

I assume -- and I do not believe that it is unreasonable to assume -- that anyone who is over 25 and has been on a forum for over year has the capacity to communicate clearly within this media's limitations.

To assume otherwise is to assume that people lack the intelligence and adaptability to understand this media and communicate clearly within it. I do not like to assume that people are lacking in these things. Call it a "benefit of the doubt" approach if you will. Or an optimistic approach to people.

In this instance, I have quoted peggy's own statements and responded in a reasonable way -- providing anecdotal evidence as well as evidence from articles from the internet to counter her claims against the Amish.

She countered these with more wild claims, an accusation that her statements were being "read into" (eschewing responsibility for her own communication choices and blaming the reader for misunderstanding), and finally asserting that she is merely being "realistic" and asserting that my perspective is "romantic" and that I find the amish "quaint" (a position that I find personally condescending towards me and towards my relationships with amish people).

And no, I'm not reading that into her statements. They are clear as the bright blue sky -- because, guess what? I read her statements, and I read my own before publishing them, and I sometimes edit them after the fact if they do not clearly communicate my intent (my meaning).

Is it too much to ask that a person communicate clearly? And if they are called out for saying something that is inappropriate or condescending, that they look at it and say "I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. This is what I meant." as opposed to "You read into my statements! You obviously don't really get it!"

After all, I called out bae on the pepper-spray incident. And, I was right there too. You cannot simply hide behind "you are reading into it." he knows better; we all do. Why should any of us -- peggy included -- get a free pass?

Perhaps I'm just asking for people to be respectful of other people's cultures, other people's experience, and communicate with other people in this medium in a clear manner?

Is that inappropriate?