here we go again...

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Originally Posted by Zoebird

Midwest,

Great point.

For me, the question begs -- what is lost?

A cell may have life, but not consciousness. The cell may develop consciousness -- this is really about potential.

What is lost for the cell, if removed from the possibility of gestation, is the potential for consciousness.

What is lost for the carrier for gestation is the cells with a potential for consciousness -- and whatever emotional attachment she may have to that (if any).

Then the next question is what is the level of harm here, as this would define the moral import.

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At the conception, I would agree there is no conciousness. To me that doesn't mean there is no value to the life, but I can conceed that a 2 cells probably don' thave conciousness. Somewhere between conception and birth conciousness develops.

I believe conciousness develops prior to birth and prior to viability outside the womb.

Given that framework, it seems to me that the needs of child with conciousness and its future outweigh the needs/wants of the host prior to the child being viable outside the womb. I would make an exception in my framework for that of a mother whose health is endangered by the pregnancy because I don't believe someone should be required to give up their life for another.

As far as level of harm, abortion ends of the life of the child with a future of possibilities.

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Originally Posted by creaker

Little or no possibility = some possibility. Again it comes down to the same issue - when is it appropriate to kill?

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I agree with you there is some minute possibility for a future when pulling the plug. Of course in pulling the plug there is also the minute possibility that the person could survive without life support.

In the case of an abortion, there is near certainty the child will have a future (assuming a healthy pregnancy) without an abortion and a certain probablity of no future with an abortion.

In one case (pregnancy), you are unnaturally ending a natural process. In the other case, pulling the plug, you are allowing a natural process to take its course. Another distinction.

And I could be totally wrong and a fetus could be ensouled and possess keen consciousness from the beginning or before. Martha Beck wrote a fascinating book called Expecting Adam that gives credence to that possibility, and reincarnation researchers have written about subjects reporting having been aborted and then returning, often to the same family.

The fetus/infant could be fully aware and intelligent at the moment of conception, and "ensouled", and be certain to be the next great statesman/scientist/musician/philosopher who will save our world, but that still would accord it no moral right to use another person's body against that person's will for even a moment, much less nine months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

I agree that the decision to carry to term belongs to the woman carrying the fetus, regardless.

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Originally Posted by bae

The fetus/infant could be fully aware and intelligent at the moment of conception, and "ensouled", and be certain to be the next great statesman/scientist/musician/philosopher who will save our world, but that still would accord it no moral right to use another person's body against that person's will for even a moment, much less nine months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

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I have to agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Zoebird

I'm sorry for this accidental inference. I can see how it can be taken this way, and It was not what I intended at all.

Instead, I meant to use it to say that I understand and value this specific position -- that of life being connected to heart beats and brain waves!

This was also intended to be reflective of your assertion that your DIL is pregnant and that the infant has a heartbeat (congratulations btw!), and I wanted to call attention to that element as being important.

I'm sorry for not doing so with more grace and clarity in my communication.

I'm also sorry if you believe -- because of this -- that I am somehow "sick."

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Thank you. the convo gets rolling sometimes too fast....

I guess I can only say, in the end, I realize not every will agree on this. I believe each and every life is precious. I believe in a soul. I believe we should love the unwanted and unloved children in the world in any way we can. I believe humans are more valuable than bugs or animals, although I love animals. I believe life begins at conception and the heart beat you can find so early in pregnancy is the heart beat of a life, full of potential and hope and joy. I believe we are loved and known before we are formed in the womb. to me each little life is profoundly precious and special.

"I guess I can only say, in the end, I realize not every will agree on this. I believe each and every life is precious. I believe in a soul. I believe we should love the unwanted and unloved children in the world in any way we can. I believe humans are more valuable than bugs or animals, although I love animals. I believe life begins at conception and the heart beat you can find so early in pregnancy is the heart beat of a life, full of potential and hope and joy. I believe we are loved and known before we are formed in the womb. to me each little life is profoundly precious and special. " (poetry_writer)
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And there is nothing wrong with believing what you believe, just as there isn't anything wrong with holding a different viewpoint. The trouble arises, I'm afraid, when some try to impose THEIR beliefs on others, as though what they believe is "THE TRUTH" and all other views are wrong.

I would defend a woman's right NOT to have an abortion as ferociously as I would defend her right to choose one. That's what pro-choice, means, after all. Respecting others' beliefs to have control over their own bodies, health and reproduction. Whether that means carrying a child to term, or aborting the pregnancy.

Enforced abortion would be as wrong as forcing women to recind control of their own bodies to another, unwanted presence.

I believe you, and I hope that you are doing everything in your power to help and care for unloved and unwanted children who are already born as strongly as you are caring about the ones not yet conscious. As well as all the little children of the world who go to bed hungry, in countries at war, and who drop through the many cracks in our social welfare system.

I respect what you are saying, poetry_writer. I hope that you are able to respect what some others are saying as well, without such epithets as "sick", etc. It IS a two way street, this respect business.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

+1
I just read somewhere that sterilization is particularly popular with Catholics, maybe because you only have to apologize once.

I would argue that tubal ligation is not such a big deal; it has to be a lot less painful than a Brazilian wax job.:0!

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I wish that were true. The procedure can damage the blood supply and nerves. I'd do it again, but I really wish the side effects had been explained to me beforehand. I went from zero cramps to go-to-bed-for-three-days-every-month cramps instantly, for the next 25 years.