Why NOT to vote Republican

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Originally Posted by catherine

So now classified documents have been found in Pence's house. Geez, wake me up when someone finds a dead body in some politician's closet. Until then, I'm bored already.

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It would have been funnier if he’d gone on “60 Minutes” the week before to scold someone else’s “irresponsibility.”

He didn’t say that apparently, but still pretty darn funny…

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1617...-of-Mike-Pence

It sort of makes one wonder what these guys may have digitized, put on a flash drive, and stashed somewhere. I guess DC hasn't gone paperless or the politicians are Luddites like me. I suppose there are reasons for paper versions, like the Top Secret stamps in red.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

It sort of makes one wonder what these guys may have digitized, put on a flash drive, and stashed somewhere. I guess DC hasn't gone paperless or the politicians are Luddites like me. I suppose there are reasons for paper versions, like the Top Secret stamps in red.

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When I worked with such things, we were not allowed to have our own electronic devices or cameras present when using the material.

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Originally Posted by bae

When I worked with such things, we were not allowed to have our own electronic devices or cameras present when using the material.

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Point taken. Since they seem to have gotten the documents to their closets from a secure area I can guess opportunities could arise.

Still seems strange that trump’s “competition/enemies” both talked about not being irresponsible and now gov docs are found in both their possessions. Is it possible to find something similar or as damaging on DeSantis?

Someone I know who has worked for multiple defense contractors and had various levels of security clearance for much of their pre-retirement life commented "apparently elected officials and their staffs don't go through the same training regarding the appropriate handling of confidential documents that I did..." At this point I won't be surprised if over the coming weeks we learn that multiple elected people, both current and past, from both parties are finding documents in their homes.

The thing I find remarkable is that there doesn't seem to be some sort of overarching document control process for the government to keep track of every copy of any given document. I've never dealt with confidential materials but thinking back to the early years of my employment with my former mega-corp insurance company when they still had paper files for everything any time I needed to send a policy file to another office the whole process was tracked. The file had a barcode on it from the moment it was created and there was a master document system that kept track of that document everywhere it went. If I needed to transfer a policy file to the chicago or new york or whatever office I'd ask the file room to do so, they would scan it out as "in shipment" including the fedex tracking number, then when it arrived in the other office it would get scanned in to their file room, and then scanned out again once it was delivered to the specific underwriter in that office. At any time in the process the document management system knew exactly where the file was. I realize that confidential documents add a level of complexity to this, but 1) it seems even more critical that a system like this exist for confidential documents, and 2) it doesn't seem that difficult to make tracking of confidential documents confidential in itself. They just need names that are random as opposed to "XYZ corporation 2010 policy file" which would've been how I could look up a file's location in mega-corp's file tracking system.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Still seems strange that trump’s “competition/enemies” both talked about not being irresponsible and now gov docs are found in both their possessions. Is it possible to find something similar or as damaging on DeSantis?

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Probably not. Like Reagan prior to his unfortunate election to the presidency, he's only a governor. He's probably never seen a confidential document unless it was shown to him by either someone who shouldn't have had it or by someone who should have known better than to show it to him. In other words, not completely impossible, but highly unlikely. And even more unlikely that someone with a confidential document would be dumb enough to let him keep a copy of it.

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Originally Posted by bae

When I worked with such things, we were not allowed to have our own electronic devices or cameras present when using the material.

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Back in the eighties, DoD had electronic security standards (TEMPEST) that everyone had to confirm to. Some rooms you worked in had degaussers built into the doorframes. They were constantly doing emanation security checks because early PC keystrokes had unique signals. Old hardware had to be destroyed by specialists.

It was a far cry from Mrs. Clinton’s closet server.

https://itep.org/fair-tax-plan-would...-from-wealthy/

meanwhile this national sales tax instead of all federal taxes and IRS would be abolished. I’ve read several articles about it. A big purchase like a car would cost Joe average much more. I don’t see how this would benefit the working middle class at all. If somebody has a different view I’d love to hear an explanation.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

https://itep.org/fair-tax-plan-would...-from-wealthy/

meanwhile this national sales tax instead of all federal taxes and IRS would be abolished. I’ve read several articles about it. A big purchase like a car would cost Joe average much more. I don’t see how this would benefit the working middle class at all. If somebody has a different view I’d love to hear an explanation.

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I am completely ignorant of most things that involve mathematics. I'm just trying to think of the things that would be taxable. It seems like a Consumption Tax. So people who buy the most stuff, pay the most tax. In theory, that's appealing to me. So, maybe it does impact the wealthy, but OTOH, how do you justify charging 30% extra for the basic things that the poor and middle class need?

Is this in any way similar to VAT taxes in Europe!
Would there be exceptions to these taxes--like not taxing food, for instance?

I'm interested in hearing other points of view on this. I haven't heard of this proposal. But if it was generated by the Church of Scientology, right away, I have to be skeptical

This idea has been proposed in each Congress for the past 30 years or so, sometimes by Republicans and sometimes by Democrats. It never goes anywhere, although I suppose it could lead to a productive conversation regarding the role of taxation and perhaps better ways to fund a government.

I'm more a fan of a flat tax on income, but it would take some fancy marketing for any major change to the way we're taxed. I remember campaign promises to simplify income tax reporting so it could be done on a postcard. I confess to not knowing much about a national sales tax but I can picture it as discouraging spending to avoid taxes, which is generally not good for a capitalist economy.

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Originally Posted by Alan

This idea has been proposed in each Congress for the past 30 years or so, sometimes by Republicans and sometimes by Democrats. It never goes anywhere, although I suppose it could lead to a productive conversation regarding the role of taxation and perhaps better ways to fund a government.

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Good luck on any kind of productive conversation.

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Originally Posted by Rogar

I'm more a fan of a flat tax on income, but it would take some fancy marketing for any major change to the way we're taxed. I remember campaign promises to simplify income tax reporting so it could be done on a postcard. I confess to not knowing much about a national sales tax but I can picture it as discouraging spending to avoid taxes, which is generally not good for a capitalist economy.

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I totally agree about spending. Our economy is about buying lots of stuff we think we need. It would hurt many producers

I've always heard that sales tax is more regressive than income tax, which sounds totally logical to me. Spending as a % of income or even of total assets is going to be much higher for poorer people.

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Originally Posted by catherine

I am completely ignorant of most things that involve mathematics. I'm just trying to think of the things that would be taxable. It seems like a Consumption Tax. So people who buy the most stuff, pay the most tax. In theory, that's appealing to me. So, maybe it does impact the wealthy, but OTOH, how do you justify charging 30% extra for the basic things that the poor and middle class need?

Is this in any way similar to VAT taxes in Europe!
Would there be exceptions to these taxes--like not taxing food, for instance?

I'm interested in hearing other points of view on this. I haven't heard of this proposal. But if it was generated by the Church of Scientology, right away, I have to be skeptical

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In general, a sales tax gets collected once at the retail level, while a VAT gets collected at each stage of the production process. Exempting certain commodities or services is one way to address the regressive concern. It can get complicated when you quibble over, say taxable prepared meals vs groceries. My State’s statues, for instance, devote more space to the definition of a sandwich than to municipal accounting standards. Another method you sometimes see is an annual or quarterly rebate meant to cover basic necessities.

I think a VAT or flat income tax with few exceptions is about as fair and simple as you can get. Income taxes offer the greatest scope for using the tax system to reward friends or punish enemies. I read California is looking at a wealth tax that would employ armies of bureaucrats to determine the value of art, unrealized gains and other items. Elizabeth Warren keeps making noises about a constitutionally questionable federal wealth tax.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Income taxes offer the greatest scope for using the tax system to reward friends or punish enemies.

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I suspect there's an army of K street lobbyists who would say "hold my chardonnay, watch this" if they heard this statement.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

In general, a sales tax gets collected once at the retail level, while a VAT gets collected at each stage of the production process. Exempting certain commodities or services is one way to address the regressive concern. It can get complicated when you quibble over, say taxable prepared meals vs groceries. My State’s statues, for instance, devote more space to the definition of a sandwich than to municipal accounting standards. Another method you sometimes see is an annual or quarterly rebate meant to cover basic necessities.

I think a VAT or flat income tax with few exceptions is about as fair and simple as you can get. Income taxes offer the greatest scope for using the tax system to reward friends or punish enemies. I read California is looking at a wealth tax that would employ armies of bureaucrats to determine the value of art, unrealized gains and other items. Elizabeth Warren keeps making noises about a constitutionally questionable federal wealth tax.

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I welcome the State of California imposing the weath tax! I would like to see how that works.

There are European countries doing this and everything Euro is good.so yay, bring on the wealth tax—to the state of California. :~)

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I welcome the State of California imposing the weath tax! I would like to see how that works.

There are European countries doing this and everything Euro is good.so yay, bring on the wealth tax—to the state of California. :~)

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I understand Norway, Switzerland and Spain have recurring (ie not just at death) taxes on net worth. France and Italy have partial wealth taxes, I think on foreign residents or assets held outside the country.

A number of countries have tried and then discontinued it because it’s difficult to administer and incentivizes a certain level of gamesmanship.

My understanding of the California proposal was that it would be a tax on the worldwide assets of current and former residents.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

My understanding of the California proposal was that it would be a tax on the worldwide assets of current and former residents.

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Molon labe.

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Originally Posted by bae

Molon labe.

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Thermopylae will seem mild compared to the serried ranks of lawyers contesting the value of vineyards, Klimts and Gulfstreams.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Thermopylae will seem mild compared to the serried ranks of lawyers contesting the value of vineyards, Klimts and Gulfstreams.

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Hmmm, I have a vineyard. Check. No Klimts but some Rodrigue paintings and some stunning Navajo/Hopi/Coast Salish art. Check. No Gulfstream, but I have a buddy with a De Havilland Beaver which I trade him wine for rides in. Check.

Out of California ~25 years now - check.

Dang. I’m impressed. Just when I thought republicans couldn’t get any creepier Florida’s high school athletics association decided to dial it up to 11. Student athletes will now have to provide their school administration details about their menstrual cycles. Such a weird look for the party that claims to be all about freedom.

To paraphrase dr oz ‘a girl’s sexual health should be between her , her doctor and her school administrator.’

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

I understand Norway, Switzerland and Spain have recurring (ie not just at death) taxes on net worth. France and Italy have partial wealth taxes, I think on foreign residents or assets held outside the country.

A number of countries have tried and then discontinued it because it’s difficult to administer and incentivizes a certain level of gamesmanship.

My understanding of the California proposal was that it would be a tax on the worldwide assets of current and former residents.

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California will solve their homeless problem with all of those new tax dollars.

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Originally Posted by jp1

Dang. I’m impressed. Just when I thought republicans couldn’t get any creepier Florida’s high school athletics association decided to dial it up to 11. Student athletes will now have to provide their school administration details about their menstrual cycles. Such a weird look for the party that claims to be all about freedom.

To paraphrase dr oz ‘a girl’s sexual health should be between her , her doctor and her school administrator.’

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Does the GOP run the Florida High School Athletic Association?

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Does the GOP run the Florida High School Athletic Association?

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No they don't, but dis-information and lack of context does seem to excite people.
Did Florida HS Athletics Association Recommend Requiring Student Athletes To Submit Menstrual Info? (msn.com)

Here are the facts: A panel of the FHSAA has submitted this recommendation to the FHSAA Board of Directors, which will meet on Feb 26-27, 2023, in Gainesville, Florida, to render a decision. Until then, submitting menstrual information is not yet a state requirement.
The committee voted to adopt a national registration form that makes answering questions on menstruation mandatory for student athletes, but diverges from the guidance of that particular form by requiring all answers (medical and reproductive history) to be submitted to school officials — not just the page with doctors' signature clearance.
The ongoing controversy began in the fall of 2022. Florida student athletes, in general, are required to answer dozens of questions on a form before their doctors clear them for practice or play. These questions have to do with physical fitness, and aim to prevent injuries.
For around 20 years, Florida's female student athletes have been asked to answer a number of additional questions that pertain to their menstrual periods. However, this section of the form has been optional, something that may change if, or when, the FHSAA sports medicine panel's recommendation receives full board approval.

The current version of the form states "FEMALES ONLY (optional)" and asks the following:

When was your first menstrual period?
When was your most recent menstrual period?
How much time do you usually have from the start of one period to the start of another?
How many periods have you had in the last year?
What was the longest time between periods in the last year?

In Florida, these written forms with students' medical information are submitted to school officials, contrary to a number of other states where only a doctor's signature is required to clear an athlete for play. While period information is important for doctors to know as it affects an athlete's physical health, some parents and medical professionals raised red flags with the questioning, when, according to an October 2022 Palm Beach Post investigation, a number of school districts shifted the forms to a digital platform.

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Originally Posted by bae

Hmmm, I have a vineyard. Check. No Klimts but some Rodrigue paintings and some stunning Navajo/Hopi/Coast Salish art. Check. No Gulfstream, but I have a buddy with a De Havilland Beaver which I trade him wine for rides in. Check.

Out of California ~25 years now - check.

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I think you’re safe unless the rest of the PNW get ideas. They can get pretty creative with other people’s money too.

Rumors are that Nikki Haley is gearing up to announce a run for president. I'd have to learn more, but if it were Biden vs Haley it would be an interesting contest. I've always thought she is a sharp woman and a refreshing change from the old schools. Th little bit I get is that she may be promoting a new version of Republican, but that's probably too much to wish for.

Looks like Tim Scott is teasing a run now.

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Originally Posted by Alan

No they don't, but dis-information and lack of context does seem to excite people.
Did Florida HS Athletics Association Recommend Requiring Student Athletes To Submit Menstrual Info? (msn.com)

Here are the facts: A panel of the FHSAA has submitted this recommendation to the FHSAA Board of Directors, which will meet on Feb 26-27, 2023, in Gainesville, Florida, to render a decision. Until then, submitting menstrual information is not yet a state requirement.
The committee voted to adopt a national registration form that makes answering questions on menstruation mandatory for student athletes, but diverges from the guidance of that particular form by requiring all answers (medical and reproductive history) to be submitted to school officials — not just the page with doctors' signature clearance.
The ongoing controversy began in the fall of 2022. Florida student athletes, in general, are required to answer dozens of questions on a form before their doctors clear them for practice or play. These questions have to do with physical fitness, and aim to prevent injuries.
For around 20 years, Florida's female student athletes have been asked to answer a number of additional questions that pertain to their menstrual periods. However, this section of the form has been optional, something that may change if, or when, the FHSAA sports medicine panel's recommendation receives full board approval.

The current version of the form states "FEMALES ONLY (optional)" and asks the following:

When was your first menstrual period?
When was your most recent menstrual period?
How much time do you usually have from the start of one period to the start of another?
How many periods have you had in the last year?
What was the longest time between periods in the last year?

In Florida, these written forms with students' medical information are submitted to school officials, contrary to a number of other states where only a doctor's signature is required to clear an athlete for play. While period information is important for doctors to know as it affects an athlete's physical health, some parents and medical professionals raised red flags with the questioning, when, according to an October 2022 Palm Beach Post investigation, a number of school districts shifted the forms to a digital platform.

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Havent we talked about this issue before? It seems familiar, but it’s fine if JP cycles it through “the GOP‘s greatest hits” even though it’s not a GOP lead issue.

Have we learned that taking home classified documents, and, well, taking them to all of your homes, it’s really not that big of a deal after all? Have we learned that lesson and can we move on now? It’s great when we can get educated and change our minds due to that education. Why just last fall, prior to the November elections, we thought it was a very big deal.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Have we learned that taking home classified documents, and, well, taking them to all of your homes, it’s really not that big of a deal after all? Have we learned that lesson and can we move on now? It’s great when we can get educated and change our minds due to that education. Why just last fall, prior to the November elections, we thought it was a very big deal.

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I think what we've learned is that taking these documents home is situationally bad, depending upon who does it. Now, we get to enjoy watching folks attempt to explain the difference at every interaction in which they can't simply ignore it.

Obviously it’s bad news for anyone to take home classified documents and staff needs to be trained better. The difference between Biden and trump is that Biden disclosed himself and allowed his homes to be searched. That’s the opposite of what trump did.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Obviously it’s bad news for anyone to take home classified documents and staff needs to be trained better. The difference between Biden and trump is that Biden disclosed himself and allowed his homes to be searched. That’s the opposite of what trump did.

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He tried to quietly return documents found by the lawyers he hired to “clean out his office” to the National Archive. Only when their IG began looking into the matter did he decide to impress us with his “transparency”.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

He tried to quietly return documents found by the lawyers he hired to “clean out his office” to the National Archive. Only when their IG began looking into the matter did he decide to impress us with his “transparency”.

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Not like trump who refused to return documents and said some of them were his to keep (or sell.).

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Not like trump who refused to return documents and said some of them were his to keep (or sell.).

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So it really comes down to whether you consider arrogance and intransigence to be worse than incompetence and hypocrisy. Personally, I wouldn’t trust either of those gentlemen with my PIN.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Not like trump who refused to return documents and said some of them were his to keep (or sell.).

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So, in your mind the difference is that Trump felt he was entitled to keep the documents and Biden couldn't say that after making such a big deal about Trump, yet probably felt the same since he distributed them to every location he may be at any given time, which would lead a reasonable person to believe he thought of them as his to keep (or allow his son to use the info for family profit). Is that about right?

In the world of us plebes I could see the judicial system making an example of someone to discourage more of the same, and to make a lasting impression on would-be-ers. I am correctly assuming that a law was broken?

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Originally Posted by Rogar

In the world of us plebes I could see the judicial system making an example of someone to discourage more of the same, and to make a lasting impression on would-be-ers. I am correctly assuming that a law was broken?

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I don’t think it’s been established that a law is broken.

But yes, it would seem that somebody needs to be made an example of to curb this. The problem is it’s not gonna be either one of the presidents current or ex, it will be someone down the chain of responsibility to serve as the example.

and of course, now I wonder what documents the Obamas have.