Expectations and demands and stepping away

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Originally Posted by catherine

Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. Not surprised. I'm sure there are lots of people who think St. Francis, Peace Pilgrim, and even Andrew Carnegie, who said "The man who dies rich dies disgraced" were nuts. As Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” If we lived in culture in which people--not vast sums in 401k plans--were each other's safety nets we could probably eliminate some of the other DMS codes like depression and overeating. Our rugged individualism and rejection of community has not paid big dividends, IMHO.

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I generally agree with this. I also think the DSM is largely a bunch of self-reverential twaddle, but that's how i regard psychology in general.

I suppose it's human nature to find everyone else wanting and then sort them into categories--we all do it--but codifying the results and making far-reaching decisions based on these largely subjective judgments troubles me. Remember, it was only a few years ago that it was pathological to be gay, according to the DSM. Now, apparently, it's generosity.

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Originally Posted by Gardnr

So yes, we're surprised you're giving away instead of saving.

Financial flashpoints are painful, distressing, and/or dramatic life events associated with money that are so emotionally powerful, they leave an imprint that lasts into adulthood. Financial flashpoints become the foundation of our financial struggles.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Financial Enabling: Giving money to others whether you can afford it or not; giving when it is not in the other's long-term best interest; having trouble or finding it impossible to say no to requests for money; and/or even sacrificing one's own financial wellbeing for the sake of others.

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Here are some of my financial flashpoints:

My father expressing ire when he saw what I was wearing to church--an ill-fitting hand-me-down from my cousin--because my mother had "a closetful of new clothes"
Being petrified, after my parents' divorce, that my brother would tell my mother how I had given 3 Saltine crackers to my best friend, because we weren't allowed to have snacks at all--never mind give them away--during that period of our lives before my mother remarried.
Watching my stepfather descend into drugs and alcohol immediately after inheriting 80k (in 1970 money), which ruined his life and my mother's.
Watching my mother lose everyone she owned: health, husband, home and all personal possessions in one event. Her husband walked because she didn't put anything in her will for him.
Navigating my own family poverty. Being chronically in the crapper--not being able to give kids lunch money, having the phone and electricity shut off, having to go to family for help, losing my home to foreclosure at age 33.
Being surprised and delighted that I was able to achieve material success and earn a good living, and backtrack on the prior poverty of my young family's life.
Watching money burn as the recession destroyed my savings.

Yes, these were financial flashpoints, and there were more. Yes, I have enabled where I didn't have to, or shouldn't have. Mea culpa.
On the positive side of my "disorder" I have learned that I don't have to be afraid. My life has gone pretty much as I've hoped for. I am not retiring much later than I hoped. I always planned to work until 70. I may work longer, but that can be at a much reduced timeline, and I like my job. It's not as if I have to punch a clock in a factory until I'm 80.

I feel very blessed to have been able to buy two houses, send my kids to college, help out when I choose to, and be surrounded by people I love. My life is very full.
I also still believe, disordered thinking or not, that money is not a big deal. And I think that a system that uses money as the only measure of well-being is incredibly dysfunctional.

That's the appeal of the simple life for me. I don't have to worry about stuff and I don't. My heroes have always been people who don't subscribe to the mainstream culture--the Nearings, Thoreau, Dorothy Day.

I appreciate the love I feel from my friends here and I appreciate your gentle questions and concerns. I truly believe I've come out the other side of my financial flashpoints, and I am satisfied with my own learnings about money--and that is, it's a crude substitute for true security.

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Originally Posted by catherine

I also still believe, disordered thinking or not, that money is not a big deal. And I think that a system that uses money as the only measure of well-being is incredibly dysfunctional.

That's the appeal of the simple life for me. I don't have to worry about stuff and I don't. My heroes have always been people who don't subscribe to the mainstream culture--the Nearings, Thoreau, Dorothy Day....

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I think this is an admirable and mentally healthy point of view. I wouldn’t be surprised if, when stacked up against you, an outside shrink would label me a little more “disordered “in my thinking about money. I am a little bit of a Simon LeGree Silas Marner*.I like the hoarding!!! On the other hand I don’t care much about the things money buys because I don’t buy high-end things that must be cared for carefully. With the exception of a couple antiques that I feel an obligation to preserve, my stuff is just stuff. It is easily expendable. But the $$$ in the bank—that’s where my power sits! What me, disordered? Nah, not a bit. Haha.

yesterday I bought a red sports car with cash. For some reason I felt, starting out on this buying journey, that I had to keep it to around $10,000. That was entirely arbitrary. Who said the price had to be $10,000 ish? No one.

Then the Trump economy gave me a gift of $20,000 in one of my retirement accounts. So I thought, why not spend this much? And thenI saw a car I did not even know existed—a Fiat built in a Japanese factory. Euro styling, Japanese engineering. And by any measure it is still a low to mid level car, not an expensive one, so any money guilt I have is not reasonable.

But now I have this shiny THING that needs to be cared for. We shall see if it is worth it.

* oops, wrong literary figure. Edited to correct.

If I were going to buy a sports car, it would likely be red--I approve!

I've always spent money pretty freely--even when I didn't have much. I don't think I have had any "flashpoints," per se.

Gard, explained what I was trying to say. We all have a complicated relationship with money. Growing up my family was generous but not to their own determent. We did the same and also made a few costly financial mistakes. We helped our kids when they were younger and needed it like ours did for us. 4 years ago my oldest and his wife moved in for 18 months even though they were in their early 40”s so my son could finish his college degree. They bought their own food. We have 5 kids between us and always paid if we went out to eat. That stopped when my job ended and everyone understood. My mom died practically broke but it didn’t matter because she was almost 90, had paid for her funeral and the town she lived in has nice Medicaid facilities if needed. We encouraged her to travel and enjoy her money which she did. She told us to take everyone that came to her funeral a specific place for lunch and sell her car to pay for it. It was very important to her to pay her own way.

It didn’t work out so well for my secretary. She got primary progressive MS at 58, had planned to always work yet had to retire by 62, lived in a inaccessible apartment and getting her needed services fell to me and another good friend because family was dead. She got caught between not being quite poor enough but not having enough either. It took 2 of us 2 years to get her into a accessible apartment she could afford and countless hours helping her in the meantime. All of that could have been avoided.

We see the money in our house as insurance because we could sell and buy a older, smaller condo and have that money for other things we may need as we age. We also have left our pensions 100% to the other if one of us die. You can’t do that with SS. You may get a slightly bigger check but still a significant cut in income. Some friends of ours are still working in their 70’s. They work from home. They inherited 300k 7 years ago and it’s all gone except for the 60k they put in the new house they built despite having a decent home they lived in. They now have CC debt again.

TT:
1) I, personally, am not extravagant like your friends. I downsized. I don't need much.

2) I'm like my MIL, who always used to say, when people would mention chronic disease, "I'll no' hae it." (I won't get it--actually more accurately interpreted as "I refuse to get it."). JK of course--Of course I can suffer a fate like my mother did at age 50, but I want to know, what is the number that gives you the best life if you are sick? What number makes you feel safe? Incidentally, my MIL never had any chronic disease--worked until she was 75, by choice because she loved her job, humping from the train from Westchester County through two subway lines to her job as Vice President of the Retail Workers Union every day. She hated retirement. She died at 85 of an acute illness while on vacation with us in VT. She left about $160k, and lived on $3k a month, but I don't see that she had a bad life at all. And she did plenty of financial enabling.

3) If we are lucky enough to get a Democrat in office maybe we'll finally get a healthcare system that's like the systems of every other civilized country on the planet. One that doesn't require you to work yourself to the bones for protection against some future possible catastrophe. Again, what did we do 100 years ago? Why is several hundred thousand dollars now considered prudent or even necessary? I don't buy it. If we had a life-affirming culture in this country, we wouldn't be so worried about long protracted debilitating and devastating illnesses.

If we don't make it to the promised land of decent healthcare, and I wind up chronically ill and too poor for decent living quarters, I will stand in solidarity with the hundreds of millions in the United States that will be in that same position.

I'll be fine.

What happened 100 years ago is that when people were old and broke they moved in with their kids and it wasn’t all roses. My mom said when they took in her grandpa it was a real financial hardship in addition to the house being small and some inter generational conflict. Because my grandma was orphaned and boarded out to farm families like a slave at the age of 12 she never turned anybody away. I don’t want to ever be a burden to my kids or live with them. The money in our house and our small savings makes me feel better. I have no illusions that it couldn’t all be wiped out by a major illness. We don’t have expensive taste or habits either. I agree that this country needs to work out HC for everyone. The cost of ours is a fourth of our gross income. Catherine, I wasn’t trying to insult you but was merely worried.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Catherine, I wasn’t trying to insult you but was merely worried.

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I know. I appreciate it. But Hakuna Matata has pretty much been my attitude throughout life and is amplified now that I have no family responsibilities and I wake up every day and smile in gratitude to my Maker, so if I'm not worrying, don't feel you have to worry for me. I'll be fine. ;)

We know several people in their 80’s still working for money. It shocks me! I just cannot grok that.

But one couple who we know pretty well does enjoy their part time jobs, professional level stuff. One has no responsibilities outside of the on-site/ paid hourly work. The other is a fill-in minister who is paid for the Sunday sermon, so he has to write it as well as deliver it, but there are no additional church duties. They can turn down work assignments if they like.

They use this money for extensive travel and they DO take fancy vacations (Viking cruises in Europe)

If my teaching job hadn’t ended I would have kept doing it until I got sick of it. I can see doing part time work if you really enjoyed it. My friends have to work at 73.