The War on Thanksgiving

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iris lilies

Yes, thank you.

But so many here insist that I *WILL* appreciate what I have, dammit! on the holiday for which that appreciation has been scheduled. And that appreciation takes the form of staying at home. One size fits all regardless.

---

I appreciate what you're saying, IL. Certainly people have a right to do what they want to do. But my beef isn't with the people who might want to shop, go to the movies, or whatever. Of course, people need to celebrate the way they want. My complaint is that shopping/consumerism has co-opted so much. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for those Norman Rockwell days, and for Sundays when all the stores were closed, and also when they were closed on evenings during the week except Thursday, but to me it's a cultural message that shopping is SO IMPORTANT that we have to be able to do it 24/7. Perhaps it's inevitable, it's fair game, it's not illegal, and I don't have to do it if I don't want to. All true. And many times I've been thrilled I could buy a book on Amazon at 2 a.m.

But what we do tells us who we are as a culture. And I'm just not liking what I hear these days when the balance is so shifted towards what can we buy and how much profit can we make.

I remember when stores weren't open on Sundays or holidays--and wishing they were. You don't have to shop, but if you need something it's nice to be able to run out and get it. I'm generally aware of the blessings in my life every day of the year, and think of Thanksgiving mostly as a day when you stuff yourself with mediocre food (after hours of plummeting blood sugar) and sit around in a stupor watching football on TV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alan

Coercion? I guess I see things a little differently after spending the 70's, 80's and some of the 90's working every holiday and odd shift that came along. If I had only known I was being coerced I might have refused the duties of my position and possibly quit in protest. That would have shown them, the big bullies.

---

It's true that you can choose to quit (unless you are talking about when you were in the military - then there is no way out :-)!) but if you have people (kids, spouse) who are dependant on you and bills to pay it's not always that easy. Lots of stories out there on the media about people being fired for refusing to work on holidays. A lot of these jobs didn't start being open on Holidays until fairly recently - and the hours and days required to work seem to keep expanding - so they may have originally taken the job and worked many years for the company thinking they would always have holidays off. And it's not just retail - many corporate companies (like my sister's work place Northrup-Grumman) no longer give the Friday after Thanksgiving off as a holiday so they can save money. Something that many places have always done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spartana

...many corporate companies (like my sister's work place Northrup-Grumman) no longer give the Friday after Thanksgiving off as a holiday so they can save money. Something that many places have always done.

---

I had to take a vacation day to have today (not to shop, thank you very much) off, in the past I didn't.

I've wondered if that's been part of the reason for the shift of shopping to Thanksgiving - and why so many people are doing it. I would think not nearly as many people can make it out to shop on Black Friday as they could a generation or two ago.

I don't think overtime law requires premium pay for working holidays period. With overtime law (if one is hourly, salaried is another ballgame) you only get premium pay for working over 40 hours a week. Because a week with a holiday in it you are not considered to have worked over 40 hours a week (since minus the holiday it's only 32 hours) no overtime is required. Yea I couldn't believe it either, but that's actually the law.

"Last week I worked eight hours on the 4th of July holiday, which fell on Wednesday. For the whole week I worked 40 hours. When I got my paycheck this week I was paid for 40 hours at my straight time rate. Aren’t I entitled to extra pay, of at least double time, for working on a holiday?"

"A. There is nothing in state law that mandates an employer pay an employee a special premium for work performed on holidays, Saturdays, or Sundays, other than the overtime premium required for work in excess of eight hours in a workday or 40 hours in a workweek. Unless your employer has a policy or practice of paying a premium rate for working on a holiday, or you are subject to a collective bargaining or employment agreement that contains such a term, your employer is only required to pay you your regular rate of pay for all the straight time hours worked on the holiday, and the overtime premium required for work in excess of eight hours in a workday or 40 hours in a workweek. Since you did not work over eight hours on the holiday, or more than 40 hours during the workweek, you were paid correctly.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_Holidays.htm

Oh and since federal law supersedes state law, you can be sure there is nothing in federal law about it either. So just keep believing you're always going to get overtime pay for working holidays ... yea ... that's the ticket.

I work for the county. In Ohio, counties, as employers, do not have to pay overtime for over 40 hours worked; they can set their own policy:
Ohio Revised Code
» Title [41] XLI LABOR AND INDUSTRY
» Chapter 4111: MINIMUM FAIR WAGE STANDARDS

4111.03 Overtime.
(C) A county appointing authority with the exception of the county department of job and family services may, by rule or resolution as is appropriate, indicate the authority's intention not to be bound by division (B) of this section, and to adopt a different policy for the calculation and payment of overtime than that established by that division. Upon adoption, the alternative overtime policy prevails. Prior to the adoption of an alternative overtime policy, a county appointing authority with the exception of the county department of job and family services shall give a written notice of the alternative policy to each employee at least ten days prior to its effective date . (and Ohio has other exemptions from overtime pay....)

I am salaried, but our hourly people are only paid overtime when they work over 80 hrs in a 14 day pay-period. They are paid a premium (1.5) for holidays, but that is only at the discretion of our judges and could end at any time. Our judges are great, but they are elected officials, so....

That said, I am thankful to have the holiday off, and to be paid for it. I'm not against retail stores being open on Thanksgiving - their choice. I don't have to like it, so I won't buy from them - my choice.

Ha Ha Ha It's good to see the 'Fox' followers here haven't disappointed. They have, (feebly I might add) tried to rally to the right and 'so what' the whole subject. *
See, the problem is, Fox, in their 'rightness', can't possibly AGREE with anything that even remotely smells of 'leftie' causes, even if they would have happily co-opted the idea if only they had thought of it first. God forbid if there is consensus on, well, just about anything! If the left thinks it's a good thing, then it MUST be bad and of course, leftist/socialist/commie/god hating/baby killing/liberal ideals. Oh the horrors!
Now all I really want for Christmas is a great big shout out to oxygen from President Barrack Hussein Obama.;)


*bae is the only sort of right winger here who is going his own way, as he often does. However, I do believe he COULD have used this day of discounts to obtain a new pair of glasses, cause, dude, that ain't no bird!:0!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peggy

*bae is the only sort of right winger here who is going his own way, as he often does. However, I do believe he COULD have used this day of discounts to obtain a new pair of glasses, cause, dude, that ain't no bird!:0!

---

Sorry, Peggy, as an evil sort-of-right-winger, I'm on duty during this holiday. I had to respond to a multi-car accident yesterday just as I was beginning to carve the roast. Had several calls in the middle of the night, and looks like today is shaping up to be a busy day. (By the way, avoid having seconds if you are expecting the pager to go off, trying to Lift Heavy Things seems problematic if you are in a turkey stupor. I won't point fingers at any of my team-mates, but still, ick...).

No time to shop.

The rest of you folks, *please* don't drink and drive during the holidays, or any other time. It's just so messy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catherine

I appreciate what you're saying, IL. Certainly people have a right to do what they want to do. But my beef isn't with the people who might want to shop, go to the movies, or whatever. Of course, people need to celebrate the way they want. My complaint is that shopping/consumerism has co-opted so much. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for those Norman Rockwell days, and for Sundays when all the stores were closed, and also when they were closed on evenings during the week except Thursday, but to me it's a cultural message that shopping is SO IMPORTANT that we have to be able to do it 24/7. Perhaps it's inevitable, it's fair game, it's not illegal, and I don't have to do it if I don't want to. All true. And many times I've been thrilled I could buy a book on Amazon at 2 a.m.

But what we do tells us who we are as a culture. And I'm just not liking what I hear these days when the balance is so shifted towards what can we buy and how much profit can we make.

---

I very much agree with this, Catherine. It's similar to the change from seeing ourselves as citizens here in the U.S. to consumers. We're not citizens, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails, we're just trying to get more of everything (food, goods, etc.). THAT'S what frustrates me to no end--and I'm not saying that I don't participate in this. As humans we're all consumers. But gobbling up more than our fair share of things comes with a price.

Yes, Alan, it is coercion. If stores hadn't been open on Thanksgiving, people would have waited for Black Friday to spend their money. You seem to know enough about business to know (as I do) that working over a holiday on a non-emergency basis is rarely considered an "opportunity"; it is pretty much a requirement even if the employer offers it as "voluntary".

I say this as someone who has been on coverage for or actively worked through many a holiday and didn't get paid a dime extra for it. My bonus was "getting to keep my job". I know how it works.

I also know that most employers would just as soon suck you dry and kick you to the curb. What the hell, maybe employers should just tell people the new work week is 120 hours a week for the same pay. If they don't like it, hey, they can just walk, right?