How to convince my girlfriend she does not need to go on pricey dates?

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Originally Posted by TVRodriguez

Thanks, and yes, I agree. As for sounding stupid, I fielded regular questions from some friends who asked me why I'd stay with someone who told me he didn't want to get married, that I was wasting my time. I also got flack for quitting my job (in a profession) to move 1300 miles, where I'd have to take another bar exam, when he could more easily have moved back to where we met. The day after our wedding, my brother kindly reminded me that there was still time for an annulment. I decided DH was worth it. On the greedy thing, well, heck, I made him pay more to "upgrade" my ring and spent $34,000 on a wedding.

UA, I have to give it up to you: you have taken a lot of heat over your positions here, and I give you a lot of credit for keeping your equanimity through it all. I can imagine that to be one of the reasons your girlfriend likes you!

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Again, I think you're being unduly hard on yourself by labeling yourself greedy. If the ring and the wedding were important to you, and you guys could afford it, how is that greedy?

When DH and I got married, I was happy to have a simple private ceremony, but he wanted a bigger celebration and he was happy to pay for it (I had no $, as I had a house payment already). We had a beautiful wedding and I'm so glad that he wanted to do it. It's not something I would have done for myself, but it truly was a magical once-in-a-lifetime experience, and he/we could afford it. So why not?

ETA: I suspect the GF likes UltraLiteAngler for his hot body, but he's too shy and modest to admit it! :)

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Originally Posted by watergoddess

ETA: I suspect the GF likes UltraLiteAngler for his hot body, but he's too shy and modest to admit it! :)

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LOL!

I am pasty white, doughy, balding, and middle aged! I think she was just finally like: "A guy that can spell and has a job...score!"

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Originally Posted by TVRodriguez

UA, I have to give it up to you: you have taken a lot of heat over your positions here, and I give you a lot of credit for keeping your equanimity through it all. I can imagine that to be one of the reasons your girlfriend likes you!

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I had one nearly 30 years ago, and would do it again although I'd remember this time not to try jumping rain puddles the next day. Did you know you can hear stitches pop?

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I worked for 4 male radiation oncologists so lots of talk about prostates that devolved into conversation about male junk in general over lunch. 2 had had vasectomies, 1 was gay and 1 had 4 boys with a wife deadset on having a girl while he was totally done. They did tell me women had 20 times the risk of complications of a tubal over a vasectomy and they each said they would do that and not even consider tubals. I was happy with what I was doing, hit menopause early, never had to do anything. Well, the poor guy ended up with one more pregnancy but it sadly ended in miscarriage of a boy. He got the vasectomy, he worked the next day (I don't think you are supposed to do that). A few years later, my friends and family members reached that age, issues with decades on the pill, tired of hormones even in an IUD and DHs who were not about to go back to condoms. 1 by 1, the vasectomies started, besides the normal male crying over anything medical, only my cousin had a problem, massive swelling. Probably because he went back to work the next day as a motorcycle cop, duh.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Why are they so fixated on getting married though? Something like 40 percent of new moms are not married these days.


I guess that I don't understand why biological clocks are such a worry. Adopting a kid is the same thing. If a woman reaches 45 and then has a hard time getting preggers, why not adopt? That could cut down on that hurried feeling and mean she could not post so much on Wedding Bee.

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if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption. If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one. And as for adopting a child being the same thing maybe on paper, I think there are a lot of women who would disagree with you. Are their reasons "right", are they selfish to want to carry their own baby? I'm not touching that one.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Because they're spineless ninnies? I would expect so, if they're on a "Waiting" board. So much of how women are socialized to act makes me gag.

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+1 x10

oops, I guess that should just be +10, lol

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Originally Posted by freshstart

if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption. If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one. And as for adopting a child being the same thing maybe on paper, I think there are a lot of women who would disagree with you. Are their reasons "right", are they selfish to want to carry their own baby? I'm not touching that one.

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I had a female friend in graduate school who called "raging baby wanting hormones" the baby rabies. haha

Another female friend simply calls it baby fever.

My ex told me once that she'd occasionally just have this "inexplicable urge to be pregnant." She did not rationally want kids, so she would let it pass, talk herself out of it, laugh at it, etc.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

What do you mean?

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Did you just wake up on this planet? Damn, we need a ROFL emoji.

Grab a thesaurus and look up "feminine." Or pick up a woman's magazine. Helpless, limited, mealy-mouthed, dissembling...on and on. Stereotypical males have their own limitations.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Did you just wake up on this planet? Damn, we need a ROFL emoji.

Grab a thesaurus and look up "feminine." Or pick up a woman's magazine. Helpless, limited, mealy-mouthed, dissembling...on and on. Stereotypical males have their own limitations.

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Jane: Like it volleyball, I was setting you for a spike! I was hoping you'd go on a tirade and say insightful and perhaps darkly funny stuff.

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if her biological clocking is in overdrive in her late 30s onward and finally realizes it is not going to happen, 45 feels old to start a family even by adoption.

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it is kinda

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If she wants that fine. I don't think biological clocks are just a "worry", I think it's multifactorial, raging baby wanting hormones being one.

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I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe). I think maybe a woman might wonder if she is missing anything by not having kids, especially if everyone around her does and it's all they talk about. Wondering if they might enjoy it or find it meaningful. But I don't think it has anything to do with hormones really.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.

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agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.

is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

well read about female sterilization it's a much bigger operation than a vasectomy - MUCH, ...
yes my point of view most of the time is men don't understand anything, doh men - haha I never said they should date me (and they think there is something wrong with you if you take birth control more seriously than them, why worry your pretty little head about that dear .....) But Alan is too cool :)

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A tubal ligation is analogous to a vasectomy; they access the fallopian tubes and cut, tie, and/or cauterize them. I had some discomfort for a day or so. I've had much worse experiences at the dentist's office. And no side effects of any kind.

It was important for me to take responsibility for birth control; it was no one's responsibility but mine and I would have been the one to live with the consequences of any failure. I believe it's up to the partner who most wants not to be a parent to take action.

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Originally Posted by freshstart

agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.

is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering

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Uh... have you not heard the incessantly-repeated phrase "I don't even need a man! I'm an independent woman."?

What is humorous is how that phrase and similarly worded phrases are used on internet dating sites. I talked and went on so many dates with women who would say that to me: "I don't even need a man!" or, with slightly more tact: "I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!

It was jarring.

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Originally Posted by freshstart

agreed. I understand a woman's desire not to marry, but should she have a child outside of marriage, she does not have much of a safety net for either of them if things go south. I liked when men and women entered into domestic partnership in NY, but they got taxed on receiving their partners benefits, like health insurance. So marriage provides legal protections to both. Not a huge marriage fan now, but I would never have a child with a man I'm in a relationship with without a marriage. You would not believe the legal issues that come up when divorcing with children. Imagine determining any of that stuff with no marriage to "protect" you.

is it some woman-empowering thing to have kids sans marriage but stay in LTR? because, unless you are a high earner, disentangling from that mess is anything but empowering

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This book I am reading called Promises I Can Keep sheds some light on this maybe...

Apparently many single moms in the "ghetto" or disadvantaged urban neighborhoods have bizarre views of marriage. The authors cited an example of how they were talking to a group of inner city single moms and the single moms said things like: "You white women are sure into your husbands."

It was like they saw marrying a guy as taxing to their grit, resources, and independence to mother their kids the way they want. But they would still live with a boyfriend, or more likely a string of boyfriends with whom they'd have a kid and then split and repeat.

But at the same time they think of marriage as something that their great-grandparents did "back in the day." A few women said things like: "We don't believe in divorce. That is why none of the women in my family are married."

There were lots of other wacky things along these lines.

"need" tends to imply helplessness and dependence, I can see not embracing the word. FWIW I have never placed a personal like that but I imagine.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

"need" tends to imply helplessness and dependence, I can see not embracing the word. FWIW I have never placed a personal like that but I imagine.

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I need water, food, sleep, and shelter to live. I need certain kinds of relationships to be happy -- friends and a life partner, maybe family too. haha

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

i I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe). I think maybe a woman might wonder if she is missing anything by not having kids, especially if everyone around her does and it's all they talk about. Wondering if they might enjoy it or find it meaningful. But I don't think it has anything to do with hormones really.

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true as this is when hormones beneficial for pregnancy and motherhood are declining. It's not hormones but I've seen wistful 38 yr olds who would maybe like a baby to crazed, asking everyone to set her up so she can develop a relationship quickly and get that golden ring- a baby. I knew a lot of the latter. A door perhaps starting to close and desperately trying to bide time before it does.

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Originally Posted by freshstart

true as this is when hormones beneficial for pregnancy and motherhood are declining. It's not hormones but I've seen wistful 38 yr olds who would maybe like a baby to crazed, asking everyone to set her up so she can develop a relationship quickly and get that golden ring- a baby. I knew a lot of the latter. A door perhaps starting to close and desperately trying to bide time before it does.

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A very close friend of mine told me, at age 37, that she values having a baby more than her husband. She lamented his lack of understanding. I asked: "Did you tell him that you'd rather have a baby than him? Did that motivate him to 'try' more often?"

Strange situation...

Noteworthy on the vasectomy issue: A few women I went on dates with told me -- either outright or subtly -- to consider getting a "secret v-sec" if I did not want kids because otherwise I'd never meet someone because I was up front about not wanting kids. They obviously sent me on my way, but this was their parting advice.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

"I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!

It was jarring.

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I don't see what's jarring about that. Personally, I don't need a man. I love my husband, and I want him around. But I don't need him. And yes, one of the reasons I want him is because he is a wonderful father to OUR kids. Want vs. need. I could have lived a very fulfilling life without him or any man, I believe. But I would rather have him than not. Because I want him. Same with kids. I don't need to have kids, but I wanted them, and now I have them.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

I'm not sure what this even means, unless it just means being horny or something (ok maybe 30 something is a woman's sexual peak, that I could believe).

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcKKY3WjzB4

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Uh... have you not heard the incessantly-repeated phrase "I don't even need a man! I'm an independent woman."?

What is humorous is how that phrase and similarly worded phrases are used on internet dating sites. I talked and went on so many dates with women who would say that to me: "I don't even need a man!" or, with slightly more tact: "I don't need a man, but I want a husband someday who'll be a father to my kids." Uh...what?!

It was jarring.

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yeah, heard it, then had baby without marriage, and changed their tune to "this sucks, I am getting screwed because I tried to be an independent woman!" when they find themselves fighting for custody, paternity and child support.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

A very close friend of mine told me, at age 37, that she values having a baby more than her husband. She lamented his lack of understanding. I asked: "Did you tell him that you'd rather have a baby than him? Did that motivate him to 'try' more often?"

Strange situation...

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wouldn't that motivate him to walk out the door?

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Originally Posted by freshstart

wouldn't that motivate him to walk out the door?

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Probably... but I cautioned her to hold her tongue. Maybe when the baby fever passes she'll be happy to just have a supportive husband who fixes stuff, grows a garden of delicious veggies, takes care of their dogs, works steady, and puts up with her totally intense schedule as a pediatrician. She has lots of nieces, nephews, and such in her big, close family.

Maybe that hormonal motherhood thing is a function of the MEST gene. I suspect not everyone has it; certainly it doesn't run strong in my family. I never had the slightest twinge of "baby fever." But if I did know I wanted a baby, I'd plan carefully for one and consider artificial insemination by someone known to me, if marriage didn't come easily or naturally.

It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock. I get that two loving parents comprise the gold standard, but I've known women who chose not to marry the father of their children for various (good) reasons, and those children are happy and healthy. A solid extended family can work wonders in such situations.

You know, the more I think about it the more I have no clue what my gf really wants regarding marriage. No clue.

Is she being quiet and "waiting?" Or is she older now and is just "over it."

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Noteworthy on the vasectomy issue: A few women I went on dates with told me -- either outright or subtly -- to consider getting a "secret v-sec" if I did not want kids because otherwise I'd never meet someone because I was up front about not wanting kids. They obviously sent me on my way, but this was their parting advice.

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I heard that, too, the men would say they were told that. Many of them realized this was kind of good advice, say you do not want children so much so you've had a vasectomy, date ends. Hopefully he put the money he saved on his "imaginary" vasectomy into his 401k

I used to help by BFF, a man, find appropriate women his age and demographic on Match, he was 55, 5'5", chubby, a little Mr Magoo with his vision, old acne scars, but he was a lawyer and that got him dates with what frankly, looked like Russian Brides for Sale. He could never "keep" these women and could not understand why. He loved art, literature, poetry, fine food, romantic trips, classical music, interior design. His dates liked the fine food but bailed after one romantic trip. And he'd start all over. Perusing women 25-30 on Match who were hot and not looking to marry or even date him. he'd get a few dates because he's a lawyer but that can't overcome being 30 yrs older, 4" shorter and she gets none of you clever references. It took two years of convincing and trial and error, he met and married a wonderful, beautiful woman his age with her own career and loved him for him, not his assets.

I have no idea what my point was, I had one and forgot it

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Originally Posted by freshstart

I heard that, too, the men would say they were told that. Many of them realized this was kind of good advice, say you do not want children so much so you've had a vasectomy, date ends. Hopefully he put the money he saved on his "imaginary" vasectomy into his 401k.

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No, they suggested I get a secret v-sec and then just be like: "I dunno why you're no preggers, hun! Guess we'll keep trying..."

Point is: They thought my romantic situation was hopeless! haha

Other women told me, as parting advice: "Date a single mom. Then she already has a kid and it is not yours! And a single mom will be very appreciative to have you."

What?!

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Originally Posted by freshstart

I used to help by BFF, a man, find appropriate women his age and demographic on Match, he was 55, 5'5", chubby, a little Mr Magoo with his vision, old acne scars, but he was a lawyer and that got him dates with what frankly, looked like Russian Brides for Sale. He could never "keep" these women and could not understand why. He loved art, literature, poetry, fine food, romantic trips, classical music, interior design. His dates liked the fine food but bailed after one romantic trip. And he'd start all over. Perusing women 25-30 on Match who were hot and not looking to marry or even date him. he'd get a few dates because he's a lawyer but that can't overcome being 30 yrs older, 4" shorter and she gets none of you clever references. It took two years of convincing and trial and error, he met and married a wonderful, beautiful woman his age with her own career and loved him for him, not his assets.

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This is an important lesson all men should learn: "I don't get all the women I want. I get all the women that want me." -- David Lee Roth

If you are not a rock star that translates into: "You get very few!" haha

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

It seems to me distasteful to glom on to the nearest man in some panic-stricken race against the clock. I get that two loving parents comprise the gold standard, but I've known women who chose not to marry the father of their children for various (good) reasons, and those children are happy and healthy. A solid extended family can work wonders in such situations.

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or even a circle of friends.

I don't think I have a very strong MEST gene. I was equally happy to try for kids or not, had them, they are wonderful and beyond what I ever imagined but I can picture a life without children (leaving my emotions and deep love for my own children out of this) being fulfilling and satisfactory as well. I had kids young, when said friends started with baby fever, a part of me wondered if this was just a thing in your 30s and I'd have it too. Never did and I'm glad, we are good with what we have in each other.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

This is an important lesson all men should learn: "I don't get all the women I want. I get all the women that want me." -- David Lee Roth

If you are not a rock star that translates into: "You get very few!" haha

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how true for most, but I prefer brains

what phrase did you see on Match or the like, over and over but expressed as if the person just breezily thought of it? the biggest one affecting me was "fiscally conservative, socially liberal", I saw and heard this so many times and it is utter BS 95% of the time. But my all time favorite started out being a chick line "all of my baggage fits in the overhead compartment!", I saw this all the time when I was helping my friend. Then the men got hold of it and every person acted like it was a clever line they'd just came up with!

yeah, well, there are those packing bags that all the air is removed so they take up 1/3 of the space, anyone who said that stupid line had those bags and unlucky for you should one pop open to real life size!

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Originally Posted by freshstart

how true for most, but I prefer brains

what phrase did you see on Match or the like, over and over but expressed as if the person just breezily thought of it? the biggest one affecting me was "fiscally conservative, socially liberal", I saw and heard this so many times and it is utter BS 95% of the time. But my all time favorite started out being a chick line "all of my baggage fits in the overhead compartment!", I saw this all the time when I was helping my friend. Then the men got hold of it and every person acted like it was a clever line they'd just came up with!

yeah, well, there are those packing bags that all the air is removed so they take up 1/3 of the space, anyone who said that stupid line had those bags and unlucky for you should one pop open to real life size!

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Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."

I'd see that and be like: "Next!"

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."

I'd see that and be like: "Next!"

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Mood swings, anyone? Check your blood sugar, Toots!

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Mood swings, anyone? Check your blood sugar, Toots!

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I heard it was originally attributed to Marilyn Monroe. :(

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Another classic used by the ladies on dating sites: "If you can't handle me at my worst then you don't deserve me at my best."

I'd see that and be like: "Next!"

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OMG, that's a good one. It was hard not to want to edit and rewrite it for them, lol. My friend and I were thinking we could totally do this, $20, we'll make your profile a witty masterpiece, well, we'll make it less shitty and more likely to get you laid! Match was an adventure, apparently I do not have good searchable terms to look for a certain kind of guy. I searched "the New Yorker", 1 hit, a woman, we wrote each other how bad our dates were, cracked each other up for months. Then she told me she was bisexual and I already knew she liked the New Yorker!

Anyway, while be driven around town to see doctors, I have a solution for your problem: friends with benefits. That's perfect for two people like you, you kinda suspect this is not going to lead to marriage, unless it changes. And maybe it would if you said you think you should both see other people, you'll realize pretty quick if you want her and only her and I'm guessing so will she. I wouldn't present it as FWB, though, just keep that in your noggin.

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Originally Posted by freshstart

OMG, that's a good one. It was hard not to want to edit and rewrite it for them, lol. My friend and I were thinking we could totally do this, $20, we'll make your profile a witty masterpiece, well, we'll make it less shitty and more likely to get you laid! Match was an adventure, apparently I do not have good searchable terms to look for a certain kind of guy. I searched "the New Yorker", 1 hit, a woman, we wrote each other how bad our dates were, cracked each other up for months. Then she told me she was bisexual and I already knew she liked the New Yorker!

Anyway, while be driven around town to see doctors, I have a solution for your problem: friends with benefits. That's perfect for two people like you, you kinda suspect this is not going to lead to marriage, unless it changes. And maybe it would if you said you think you should both see other people, you'll realize pretty quick if you want her and only her and I'm guessing so will she. I wouldn't present it as FWB, though, just keep that in your noggin.

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She is super Christian and therefore does not believe in FWB.

I am not much of a FWB type guy anyway... though it sounds fun on paper. I really try to do right by any woman I date.


On Match.com I noticed the "Match Clones." There was this huge class of women on there who essentially had the same profile!

"I love to travel. I am a big fan of (insert popular sports team in my area here). My family and friends mean the world to me. I have an amazing puppy/cat! I have a great education, an excellent career, and now I just need my partner in crime. I'd prefer a guy who is tall, works out regularly, and has a house and a car. You have to make me laugh! I like romantic comedies, red wine, and Grey's Anatomy. You must be willing to take salsa lessons and be romantic too. I'd like to be married and start a family within two years. Can't wait to hear from you! My favorite books are 50 Shades of Grey and The Bible."

This is like 90% of women on internet dating sites. Lawd help me! haha

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

She is super Christian and therefore does not believe in FWB.

I am not much of a FWB type guy anyway... though it sounds fun on paper. I really try to do right by any woman I date.


On Match.com I noticed the "Match Clones." There was this huge class of women on there who essentially had the same profile!

"I love to travel. I am a big fan of (insert popular sports team in my area here). My family and friends mean the world to me. I have an amazing puppy/cat! I have a great education, an excellent career, and now I just need my partner in crime. I'd prefer a guy who is tall, works out regularly, and has a house and a car. You have to make me laugh! I like romantic comedies, red wine, and Grey's Anatomy. You must be willing to take salsa lessons and be romantic too. I'd like to be married and start a family within two years. Can't wait to hear from you! My favorite books are 50 Shades of Grey and The Bible."

This is like 90% of women on internet dating sites. Lawd help me! haha

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Hahaha hahaha hahaha! Fifty Shades of Grey and the Bible! Oh hahaha! That's great. The whole thing is great. Too funny.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I recognize that for some people, commitment without marriage is what they value. That's fine. I just think that in the vast majority of cases where they bring children into the world, kids are best served by two committed parents with legal protections.

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+1 Maybe that sounds old-fashioned to many people, but as a mother of 4, I can say that in MOST cases, having 2 parents is better than 1. Having kids isn't like buying a car--you get it and then just spin it through the car wash and get standard maintenance on it and it's good to go. It's messy, extremely time-consuming and resource-depleting and emotionally draining. Having someone to share it all with serves both the parent and the child well.

And, sharing the joys is wonderful also. Who else can you gush and gush about your kids with, without others thinking you are a total boor, if not your partner?

I know people who have chosen to have kids and gone the single route by recruiting a sperm-donor, and I respect their desire for motherhood, and I'm sure they're giving it 100%. But on those days when you only have 50% in you, it's nice, for you AND the kids, to have back-up.

OMG, it's even worse now.

I can't remember when I did it, '04, I think. The book du jour was oh, that awful book, Da Vinci Code. Eventually, I stopped reading after Da Vinci Code was mentioned. One guy tried to convince me how much he loved the Kike Runner, he must've said "Kike" 5 times, I was dying. Thinking this guy is probably saying this all over the internet, I said, "do you mean Kite Runner? That was a great book." He says NO and insists it's Kike Runner, you know, slang for Jews? I am familiar. Keep up the good work, you should look for women whose lives are changed by the Secret. You'll get along great! 2004, openly uses words like Kike? Vomit.

there have to be better alternatives these days? Maybe one for people choosing a simple life....kind of like the people here. We make a dating site for the alternative crowd, whatever that may be, multiple "groups", like Vegans and Tiny Housers, Dumpster Divers, 100 items or less, etc., and we sit back and rake in the cash. Sounds, well, simple!

alright, the pope is exploding all over my tv, I have to denounce all of this shit! But it could work....

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/v...elaLaverne.gifOh DING DING DING DING DING. DING? She's "super Christian" and you're basically atheist / agnostic? To me, "super Christian" implies that she wants to pursue a spiritual path that you think is at best unimportant and at worst (worst for the relationship, I mean) a load of nonsense. And she feels the same way about your passion for minimalism and your financial conservativism. Exactly how is that supposed to work?