Will Trump behave himself at the G20 summit?

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Originally Posted by Tybee

I am not familiar with that study-- can you remember when you saw that, so we can look for a link?

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http://www.marketwatch.com/story/low...of2&yptr=yahoo

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Originally Posted by bae

I don't know that I disagree with their actions. If you are elderly, the last months of your life can be very very expensive. Both parents were in hospice care, but the expenses are still heroic. And if the patient wishes treatment instead, I imagine the costs are even more special - the dose of the cutting-edge cancer medication that they were arranging for my father-in-law was going to be > $20k. (And it would be easy to shriek "Greed! Profits!", but I simply have no foundation to analyze the cost situation for that medication.)

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My mother-in-law died in Vermont, on the last day of our annual family vacation, at Bennington Hospital. We had to make a decision to either let her go, or put her through surgery. It was interesting because it was a Friday night, and the hospital was what you would imagine for a small VT hospital, and there was only one surgeon there, a doctor who was well on in years himself. He gently counseled us on the value of sparing my MIL the surgery, and to discern whether it should be done just because it's available and MIGHT give her a few months, or whether it's her time to go. We decided to let her go and she died the next day.

I've always wondered what if we had been in New Jersey and had taken her to one of the big academic teaching hospitals in the area? Would they have pushed for surgery? Would the dialogue have been different? Would we have made a different decision?

I think we made the right one. She was frugal to a fault, too.

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Originally Posted by dmc

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/low...of2&yptr=yahoo

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Thanks!

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

First, I expect that quarter of a million figure was wildly inflated on paper, but still--how the hell do medical "care" providers get off charging such exorbitant amounts? I'd love to see an accounting of actual costs, minus profit margins, kickbacks, and padding. The one time I had an operation, some forty years ago, I was charged $70 for a light used in the surgical theater. Really? But back then, I could have easily paid for the whole thing. Not any more.

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yes, my friend who pays cash for extensive medical treatments Including cancer treatment, negotiated her $240,000 hospital bill down to $75,000 cash payment. That was the amount for two surgeries in a ten day hospital stay when she was hit by a car. But she is not the norm by any means.

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Originally Posted by catherine

My mother-in-law died in Vermont, on the last day of our annual family vacation, at Bennington Hospital. We had to make a decision to either let her go, or put her through surgery. It was interesting because it was a Friday night, and the hospital was what you would imagine for a small VT hospital, and there was only one surgeon there, a doctor who was well on in years himself. He gently counseled us on the value of sparing my MIL the surgery, and to discern whether it should be done just because it's available and MIGHT give her a few months, or whether it's her time to go. We decided to let her go and she died the next day.

I've always wondered what if we had been in New Jersey and had taken her to one of the big academic teaching hospitals in the area? Would they have pushed for surgery? Would the dialogue have been different? Would we have made a different decision?

I think we made the right one.

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What an interesting story. I think you are quite right, it probably would have been different in NJ, and not for the better.

Some wealthy people do not care about others. Until his family experiences real tragedy he will never understand or care about the plight of others. You can't make someone have a conscience or have empathy. Bae, I have had family members die from cancer with hospice at home and it was not expensive because they were not seeking treatment. Yes there was some expense for the home health aid to bathe them twice/week and a nurse a few times week also. I think both your MIL and FIL saved themselves a lot of suffering by going early as it is very painful to die of cancer. I have seen it happen too many times. IL: yes some pre-existing conditions are caused by lifestyle but many are caused by genes. Everyone on my Mom's side of family get HBP at about age 31. Despite healthy living, good diets, regular exercise they still all get it. One of my sons who is very healthy, hikes all the time etc got it at 31. I got it at 50 despite not being overweight and walking 6 miles a day. All my sibs have it too. Everyone on my Mom's side of the family has died of cancer. If we are going to start judging others by lifestyle then we also will have to decide who is worthy and who is not. Yes Rob should feel grateful for his HI paying his bills. If we had single payer he would never have to worry about it. We spend a small fortune on defense and helping other countries instead of our own people. We could easily fund HI with that $. IL: my friend's story was to illustrate that eventually you run out of $ for healthcare. The poor man worked until a year before he died. He worked when incredibly sick at age 66 trying to keep the paycheck rolling in. No one should have to do that.

Catherine, you made the right decision.

Okay, having looked at the link, and it's an interesting story, for sure, here is quote:
"People who make the most money spend the biggest chunk of their incomes on luxury goods, but even the poorest households spend a significant amount on luxuries, according to an analysis released The wealthiest families (the top fifth of earners) spend around 65% of their incomes on luxury goods and 35% on necessities, according to the study, which looked at spending habits between 1984 and 2014. Middle-income households weren’t far behind: They spend 50% on luxuries and 50% on necessities.
Even the lowest-income families (the bottom fifth of earners) spend 40% on luxuries and 60% on necessities, according to the study’s author, Torsten Slok, chief international economist for Deutsche Bank Securities."
But I am very confused by what follows;
"It’s worth noting that by the specialized nomenclature of the dismal science, even eating at McDonald’s is a luxury — that is, we do it more as our incomes rise — while smoking and lottery-ticket buying are categorized as necessities. For its part, the Deutsche Bank report explicitly defined luxuries as goods or services consumed in greater proportions as a person’s income increases and necessities as those goods or services that make up a smaller proportion of spending as a person’s income increases."

The way that is written, lottery tickets and smoking are necessities--which does not make sense. It would follow if you made 10,000 a year, McDonald's would take up more of your money than if you made 100,000?

Thanks DMC for pointing out that eating is a luxury whereas smoking and lottery tickets are necessities. Total garbage study!thumbsup!

Those are not DMC's categories, they were the categories of Deutschebank. It was how DB defined luxuries that I was questioning, not something DMC asserted.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

DMC is wealthy and could give a shit about anyone else.

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That seems to be a personal attack, and outside the forum guidelines.

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Bae, I have had family members die from cancer with hospice at home and it was not expensive because they were not seeking treatment.

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I guess I'm lying then, since I helped both of them set up and manage their hospice and care situations, and was there helping care for them, and saw the bills with my own lying eyes, and had to manage both of their estates.

(And boy, my lying eyes saw some serious predatory practices in the elder care/home health care industry....)

Personally, I would prefer a reasonably-priced fee for service system with deductibles assigned on a sliding scale. I would prefer to deal directly with my doctor, without interference. (Actually, I would prefer to stay healthy enough to avoid the whole matter.)

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Originally Posted by bae

That seems to be a personal attack, and outside the forum guidelines.

)

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" couldnt give a shit" it is pretty close to a personal attack, close enough for TT to consider editing it, especially since it isnt truthful or factual. Dmc IS kinda wealthy, though, that part is true.

Thank you, Teacher Terry for your consideration.

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I would prefer to deal directly with my doctor, without interference.

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Right?

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(Actually, I would prefer to stay healthy enough to avoid the whole matter.)

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So say we all :-)

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Originally Posted by jp1

It's nice to know that you think it would be funny if trump's wealthcare bill passes and my friend Amy's breast cancer reoccurs that she would be forced to either die or go bankrupt paying entirely out of pocket for treatment for a pre-existing condition.

I bet you and paul ryan have a blast together at kegger parties.

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Thank You for your humanity displayed here, JP1....it gives me some hope for human beings yet. Rob

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Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

The rich have always had a quirky sense of humor--witness "dead peasant insurance." Hahaha, oh rolling on the floor with laughter. So funny.
The mass of us are just "peasants" and "useless eaters" to them.

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Plus One Trillion, possibly more. Rob

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

Also, frankly, it doesnt help my empathy to hear ad nauseum how one member of our group here despises the taxpayers of the U.S.A. for their lack of "human dignity" and yet sucked down a good quarter of a million $ in hospital care in recent years with no charge to him.

While I don't expect groveling thanks, I do expect simple recognition that he was taken care of. But his drumbeat of "not good enough, never good enough, despicable" leads me to think that there are a lot of people out there with unrealistic expectations of how much things cost and how much the taxpayer is willing to give. This attitude is extremely wearing.

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IL, IL, IL......How unfortunate it is that we BOTH hold US Citizenship, no? Say we were Canadians, living outside of Vancouver (I vote for Surrey as when I was in Europe two years ago, Surrey, BC, Canada, is where I portrayed myself as being from, it's a classy name and most of the world likes Canada and Canadians)....this whole convo would be unnecessary as our lives would be worth socialized medicine. Just as this convo would be unnecessary in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON. If you choose to believe that the American way of not caring the slightest bit about the next person is acceptable, I can not change your mind - that's your deal. Please don't judge me one iota for rejecting this line of thinking 100% and caring for my fellow man/woman and believing they are worth access to health care, too, funded by the collective. I saw through America at the age of 8 (very grateful for this, too!!!) and such thinking as yours I have pretty much been incapable of for 42 years now (as of this August 17th).

My point is that you get to think as you wish in regards to this issue. Just understand that not everyone is going to agree with you nor will everyone else share your opinion. Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening. Though I'm sure there are numerous zip codes in the US where my views would also be seen as threatening. As I've said for years - Karl Marx was right about one thing: It all boils down to social class. Which is especially cruel in the United States as those remaining in the middle class in the US can find themselves knocked off this perch in the blink of an eye, quickly learning how abusive your line of thinking can be for those no longer on said financial perch. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

IL, IL, IL......How unfortunate it is that we BOTH hold US Citizenship, no? Say we were Canadians, living outside of Vancouver (I vote for Surrey as when I was in Europe two years ago, Surrey, BC, Canada, is where I portrayed myself as being from, it's a classy name and most of the world likes Canada and Canadians)....this whole convo would be unnecessary as our lives would be worth socialized medicine. Just as this convo would be unnecessary in ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON. If you choose to believe that the American way of not caring the slightest bit about the next person is acceptable, I can not change your mind - that's your deal. Please don't judge me one iota for rejecting this line of thinking 100% and caring for my fellow man/woman and believing they are worth access to health care, too, funded by the collective. I saw through America at the age of 8 (very grateful for this, too!!!) and such thinking as yours I have pretty much been incapable of for 42 years now (as of this August 17th).

My point is that you get to think as you wish in regards to this issue. Just understand that not everyone is going to agree with you nor will everyone else share your opinion. Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening. Though I'm sure there are numerous zip codes in the US where my views would also be seen as threatening. As I've said for years - Karl Marx was right about one thing: It all boils down to social class. Which is especially cruel in the United States as those remaining in the middle class in the US can find themselves knocked off this perch in the blink of an eye, quickly learning how abusive your line of thinking can be for those no longer on said financial perch. Rob

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And yet your still here. And how many from the 85006 came from somewhere else? And when you say funded by the collective, don't you really mean someone else.

i do enjoy reading your post though, very interesting.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

" couldnt give a shit" it is pretty close to a personal attack, close enough for TT to consider editing it, especially since it isnt truthful or factual. Dmc IS kinda wealthy, though, that part is true.

Thank you, Teacher Terry for your consideration.

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im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Good thing you don't live in the 85006 - you would find yourself socially isolated here as your views - at least as far as health care goes - would be considered threatening.

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Good gracious! That sure sounds like a fun community to live in. Civic-minded, celebrating diversity, and full of community spirit...

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Originally Posted by dmc

im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.

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Ouch. DMC, I've read your reaction here and I've read what apparently IL posted before.....and all I am going to say is....please...let us all play at least neutral in the sandbox. If I can swallow my resentment of America for having me live in fear 24/7/365 of the United States due to the economic terrorism that was American health care before ObamaCare made things saner for me and the millions of easily expendable folks like me holding US citizenship....is it a far stretch for me to call for civility? You don't have to agree with or see things my way or any other poster's way - just neutral to other poster's takes. One kind way I can put this is that you don't know what someone else's struggles are, no? Just want to keep things somewhat civil here, this is the extent of my agenda. Thank You in advance for understanding. Rob of the 85006

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Originally Posted by bae

Good gracious! That sure sounds like a fun community to live in. Civic-minded, celebrating diversity, and full of community spirit...

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Bae, exactly! How would you like to come on down and join our next protest? I'll be glad to let you know the cause, the date, and the time, and closer to the actual protest, if food and beverage are to be provided by a Valley charity or if you are on your own for food and beverage....Rob of the 85006

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Originally Posted by dmc

And yet your still here. And how many from the 85006 came from somewhere else? And when you say funded by the collective, don't you really mean someone else.

i do enjoy reading your post though, very interesting.

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No snark here at all....seriously. I'm glad you found my post here interesting. This actually gives me some small amount of hope for the human race....Thank You for that. Rob of the 85006

There you go Bae. You can start looking for your outfit now. Food And beverage included, maybe you could even get in a little looting.

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Originally Posted by dmc;27\2864

There you go Bae. You can start looking for your outfit now. Food And beverage included, maybe you could even get in a little looting.

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Now, DMC.....was there any reason for this? Why the assumption that I agree with protestors looting? Seriously. This is uncalled for. I invite you to go back into my posting history where during the elections last year I stated more than once I was against looting. I really don't appreciate the assumption that I am OK with looting based on the beliefs I hold.....You get to believe as you wish and I understand that I have to accept this in my role as moderator....flip the script a bit and here's the deal....you get to hold your beliefs, too, even if I have disagreed with such beliefs since the age of 8 during the summer of 1975.

Whatever. It is however totally inappropriate to mention looting....I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? And finally, about my outfit....it is on hold for the joyous day of a Trump impeachment....what is so hard to understand about that? I will not be wearing my Westside Thrift Shop Outfit until the joyous day of Trump's impeachment. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Bae, exactly! How would you like to come on down and join our next protest?

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No thanks. I don't feel like being shunned, or socially isolated, for my views if they happen to be different from those of The Speaker For The 85006. I wouldn't feel it to be a safe space.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? Rob of the 85006

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Seriously???

You need to step down as a moderator then Rob. Or the owner of the board needs to remove you.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Now, DMC.....was there any reason for this? Why the assumption that I agree with protestors looting? Seriously. This is uncalled for. I invite you to go back into my posting history where during the elections last year I stated more than once I was against looting. I really don't appreciate the assumption that I am OK with looting based on the beliefs I hold.....You get to believe as you wish and I understand that I have to accept this in my role as moderator....flip the script a bit and here's the deal....you get to hold your beliefs, too, even if I have disagreed with such beliefs since the age of 8 during the summer of 1975. Whatever. It is however totally inappropriate to mention looting....I don't wish to ban you but I will bring this up behind the scenes with other moderators as this is truly too disrespectful to the struggles of the lower social classes. Nothing personal.....but this crosses the line and for once I am calling human rights/human dignity. How could I live with myself if I didn't? Rob of the 85006

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i didn't say you were ok with looting. But many of the protest from the lower classes include looting and burning these days. Do you not watch the news?

As far as banning, I really don't care. If it will make you feel better, go ahead.

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Originally Posted by bae

Seriously???

You need to step down as a moderator then Rob. Or the owner of the board needs to remove you.

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So it is acceptable then to assume I am looting as a feature of protesting? This assumption does not equate with harrassment? I will admit I don't live in your area of Washington State but here in the 85006, such an assumption equates with harrassment. I expect an apology not from you but from DMC. DMC truly crossed the line big time here and on this one I am going to call him on it....not for me so much as I realize that DMC and I will never be drinking shots of Presidente while hearing of Trump's insults to Mexico and it's people from other residents of the 85006....I bring this up only because it is so disrespectful to so many law compliant protestors I am privileged to know in the 85006. Their bravery and willingness to protest the numerous evils in the current American landscape deserves at a rock bottom minumum neutrality. This one is non-negotiable in my book after having lived in fear of the United States for years. Rob of the 85006

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Originally Posted by dmc

i didn't say you were ok with looting. But many of the protest from the lower classes include looting and burning these days. Do you not watch the news?

As far as banning, I really don't care. If it will make you feel better, go ahead.

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It is not for me to ban you, nor do I wish to hold such power. All I ask for
is for basic respect for the social classes beneath you. Are you capable of such? Truly based on my experience with you to date I rather doubt it. You really did cross the line when assuming that I was part of looting just for joining protests with other residents of the 85006.....This was completely unacceptable. Non-negotiable here is this stance. Rob

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

So it is acceptable then to assume I am looting as a feature of protesting? This assumption does not equate with harrassment? I will admit I don't live in your area of Washington State but here in the 85006, such an assumption equates with harrassment. I expect an apology not from you but from DMC. DMC truly crossed the line big time here and on this one I am going to call him on it....

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Step down.

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

It is not for me to ban you, nor do I wish to hold such power. All I ask for
is for basic respect for the social classes beneath you. Are you capable of such? Truly based on my experience with you to date I rather doubt it. You really did cross the line when assuming that I was part of looting just for joining protests with other residents of the 85006.....This was completely unacceptable. Non-negotiable here is this stance. Rob

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Rob. ^ This is you, crossing the line. Repeatedly.

Step down.

What part of being assumed to be a looter for simply protesting being unacceptable to an extreme don't you understand, Bae? Rob of the 85006

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Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

What part of being assumed to be a looter for simply protesting being unacceptable to an extreme don't you understand, Bae? Rob of the 85006

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Step down.

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Originally Posted by dmc

im a straight white male. I'm used to being attacked. No big deal.

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Well, I kinda thought that. :)

Some day we will have a single payer healthcare system simply because we failed to agree on how to fix this horrible system we have now. Whether Obamacare is so abhorrent because it was a rush job or because it was intended to place us in a favorable frame of mind for accepting single payer.......doesn't matter.....it will be irrelevant. What this thread proves is we are incapable of problem solving without finger pointing and so we will look for a model to adopt. Well, lucky for us, there are plenty to choose from and before we kill each other over it.......we ought to pick one and commit for the sake of preserving the superpower we still are. Moving along the same path is sure ruin. After all folks...this isn't rocket science.....it's just healthcare.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Some day we will have a single payer healthcare system simply because we failed to agree on how to fix this horrible system we have now. Whether Obamacare is so abhorrent because it was a rush job or because it was intended to place us in a favorable frame of mind for accepting single payer.......doesn't matter.....it will be irrelevant. What this thread proves is we are incapable of problem solving without finger pointing and so we will look for a model to adopt. Well, lucky for us, there are plenty to choose from and before we kill each other over it.......we ought to pick one and commit for the sake of preserving the superpower we still are. Moving along the same path is sure ruin. After all folks...this isn't rocket science.....it's just healthcare.

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I think you are probably right about this, and for the reasons you state.

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Originally Posted by iris lilies

I think you are probably right about this, and for the reasons you state.

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Ayup.

I am however cautious about adopting "a proven model", as generally the countries that are brought up as exemplars are markedly-different from the USA in some significant ways. I've made a bit of a semi-professional hobby the past several years visiting many of these places to get a sense for how they run things, and while some are fabulous, their experience and constraints aren't quite comparable.

(To be fair, I'm also country-shopping, like Rob, but perhaps for rather different reasons... I even got a job offer out-of-the-blue from one of the Nordic nations.)

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Originally Posted by bae

Ayup.

I am however cautious about adopting "a proven model", as generally the countries that are brought up as exemplars are markedly-different from the USA in some significant ways. I've made a bit of a semi-professional hobby the past several years visiting many of these places to get a sense for how they run things, and while some are fabulous, their experience and constraints aren't quite comparable.

(To be fair, I'm also country-shopping, like Rob, but perhaps for rather different reasons... I even got a job offer out-of-the-blue from one of the Nordic nations.)

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I used to think we, as a country, were capable of crafting our own improved version of health care, complete with choice and cost containment. I'm pessimistic these days. American isn't as exceptional as we keep asserting it is, IMO--we're still basking in our post WWII glory, I'm afraid.

Post edited. Bae, I never ever said you were lying. I just reported what happened with my family and recently my good friend. When first on Hospice they billed Medicare for all her meds and we paid very small co-pays. Her small pension of 1950 covered her care and her meds, etc. It was not until she went into a more secure smaller side of the home because she required more care that we needed Medicaid to step in and pay for the almost doubling of the rent at the home. Since she died I just finished up paying the small co-pays that were left. I had to put her in a home a hour from us because they were the only decent place that would accept her small income for payment. Even the dumps in our town would not take her income and wanted about double. I am upset that 2 hard working people got the shaft. Now some will argue they paid their bills but I argue if medical bills had not taken all their $. I could have put her in a home in town so I could have seen a lot more of her which would have been good for her instead of just going weekly. I don't care that they left heirs with no $ and neither do his kids. I just care that there was not enough $ to provide her with care in this town. Others would have visited also but when people work f.t. they are not willing to drive an hour each way so had no visitors but us.