Please explain this to me

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Obviously, you must be an introvert or you would realize it is impossible to always stay home.

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I am an introvert, and fine with being home 90% of the time. Frankly, I love having an excuse to turn down social engagements. I "get out of the house" by walking down to the lake or puttering in the garden. I love it when the summer neighbors are away during the week.

I was talking with my DD and future SIL on Mothers Day about that. They have decided, with their September wedding, to cancel the big shindig and have a very small, immediate family only event at my in-law's place in Maine. They are worried that they would put guests in a difficult position by asking them to travel.

But really, they are thanking God for this "silver lining" of COVID because they are both introverts and the only reason they entertained the idea of a big wedding is because my son-in-law has a big extended family. So they are thrilled to cut the guest list from 100+ to 28.

I know it's hard for extroverts to think this way. My extrovert son veers on thinking introverts are "weird" at best and "antisocial" at worst. But we are just happy with our own company.

I recall when I was in the final throes of childbirth that I did not want anyone else around me. I wonder if impending death might bring about the same feeling. I saw both my mother and little brother moments after they died and I wish that I did not have that image in my head. We did a FaceTime with my very non-techy mother in law on Mother's Day. She has been in her assisted living room now for two months without leaving. Best we can do for her right now. Back to masks...we stopped wearing ours on walks but always have on at the grocery or other places with people.

I think some of us might be right about what we would want our deathbeds and others may not really know and that is OK. But I do know one thing: not everyone wants the same thing and I hope I don’t have some cheerful do-gooder nurse stroking my brow and holding my hand and talking nonsense to me because it will be nonsense. She doesn’t know me and Most anything she says will not speak to me.


I will never forget when my father was dying some damn do -gooder member of the nursing staff came up to me as I was standing near his bed and plastered her body against me in a loooong hug. And all I could think of was oh God yet one more thing I have to endure.

I still resent that moment because it was all about her.

Maybe a couple of months before he died my dad was in the hospital, this was not the final time he was admitted, but the time before that when it looked like he would make it. When we went to visit him he said "what are you doing here, waiting for me to die?". "No, we are visiting you in the hospital" (or maybe waiting for you to get better one could have said). So maybe I took from that a month or two later when he actually was dying, that he would not actually want anyone waiting around for him to die (which is what it would have been if we had seen his death when he was unconscious on morphine anyway, just a waiting for death).

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

I have been in 3 stores in 8 weeks. All were super quick.

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This is my mother's mindset too. If I am quick and wear a mask it is OK.

I heard on the news the number of people volunteering to get groceries and run errands for the elderly greatly exceeds the number of elderly signing up for these services. There is no need for any high risk person to go out, but there is definitely the want.

The economy is being gutted because the government feels the need to impose restrictions and shutter businesses because high risk people do not want to stay home. If they want to risk their lives I wouldn't lock them up, but I dislike ruining things for everyone else because they don't like to shelter in place. It should be venture out at your own risk.

Oh absolutely, the number of do-gooders exceeds those wanting their help.

Our neighborhood had 15 to 20 volunteers signed up to run errands for those who are at risk. This was several weeks ago. Not one person is taking advantage of this well publicized effort. Not one.

The senior folks at my church are being sensible and staying in. They either have family or someone else willing to run errands.

I’ve been grocery shopping for the past month for a widow in her mid-80s I’m close to. We share a music stand in choir. She’s been staying home since early March. I drop the groceries on her porch, she sticks an envelope with her check out the door, and once I have it, I back up about 10 feet and chat for 5-10 minutes.

She said she goes out to the post office once a week to mail stuff. She uses the it drive by mail box. Saids it’s good for both her and her car to get out for that. She has no contact with anyone when she’s out. She has a small back patio she will sit on to get some air or goes for a walk around the block.

I haven't been in a store since some time in March. No do-gooders are clamoring to shop for me, either. I'm content to shelter in place for the foreseeable future, but I know people in my age group who make it a point to grocery shop once a week or so. With the distancing, masks, plexiglass barriers, directional arrows, and very limited human contact, I doubt they have much chance of contracting or spreading anything. But we'll see, I guess.

Nobody is volunteering here to shop for seniors. The 3xs I went into a store because I needed to eat. My husband usually does it but was out of town. Once my son arrived he has been doing it for us. But he leaves Monday to work in Alaska all summer. The restaurant had taken out half of the tables and wasn’t full. That’s the only unnecessary thing we have done. My husband may be working out of town soon so will need to do all the shopping.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Nobody is volunteering here to shop for seniors. The 3xs I went into a store because I needed to eat. My husband usually does it but was out of town. Once my son arrived he has been doing it for us. But he leaves Monday to work in Alaska all summer. The restaurant had taken out half of the tables and wasn’t full. That’s the only unnecessary thing we have done. My husband may be working out of town soon so will need to do all the shopping.

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Are you sure? Do you belong to Next Door? That’s one source of information about shop-for-others efforts. I will bet churches have organized to do that as well, all over.

Yes I am on Nextdoor. This is a very transient community. We don’t belong to a church.

A Senior Center?

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Yes I am on Nextdoor. This is a very transient community. We don’t belong to a church.

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I know you dont belong to a church, but if there is a church set up to provide this service (like my neighborhood) and they have no takers, i bet they would shop for you.

I know that our do-gooders would wet their pants to help anyone, including those in contiguous neighborhoods at this point, since no one is taking advantage here of the service.

We have a virtual neighborhood meeting tonight in ten minutes and will virtually get updates on all of our virtuous social programs.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

This is my mother's mindset too. If I am quick and wear a mask it is OK.

I heard on the news the number of people volunteering to get groceries and run errands for the elderly greatly exceeds the number of elderly signing up for these services. There is no need for any high risk person to go out, but there is definitely the want.

The economy is being gutted because the government feels the need to impose restrictions and shutter businesses because high risk people do not want to stay home. If they want to risk their lives I wouldn't lock them up, but I dislike ruining things for everyone else because they don't like to shelter in place. It should be venture out at your own risk.

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You don't know what the hell you are talking about!! Out 3x in 8 weeks is not excessive. BTW... Don't you work? You have been on this site all day? What does that say about you... unless it is your day off?

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Originally Posted by Yppej

A Senior Center?

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Mine is closed.

If I were a senior I would let someone else get my groceries for me. Waiting in line to get into the store in what have been below freezing temperatures, wearing a mask, trying to find things that are not in stock, having people come up close to me because they don't care about social distancing since they think masks protect them, etc is not fun. There is no joy in shopping anymore, not to mention the health risk to older people.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Mine is closed.

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Meals on Wheels is expanding to deliver groceries as well in some areas.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

If I were a senior I would let someone else get my groceries for me. Waiting in line to get into the store in what have been below freezing temperatures, wearing a mask, trying to find things that are not in stock, having people come up close to me because they don't care about social distancing since they think masks protect them, etc is not fun. There is no joy in shopping anymore, not to mention the health risk to older people.

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I'm in the Chicago area. Only the big box stores are making people wait outside. The regular grocery stores aren't doing that. Huge reason why I'm going to the regular grocery stores. Might cost a bit more, but no waiting outside and I'm in and out quickly.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

Meals on Wheels is expanding to deliver groceries as well in some areas.

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You really don't have a clue.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

If I were a senior I would let someone else get my groceries for me. Waiting in line to get into the store in what have been below freezing temperatures, wearing a mask, trying to find things that are not in stock, having people come up close to me because they don't care about social distancing since they think masks protect them, etc is not fun. There is no joy in shopping anymore, not to mention the health risk to older people.

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Didn't you say you are over 50? You are a senior! It is easy for you to say let someone else shop for me. Some of us don't have family or don't want others picking out our food. I shop every 3 weeks. I don't think that is excessive and if you do, who cares? BTW.. shopping was never fun.

Meals on wheels is for people that can’t cook for themselves and meet certain income requirements. Plus locally there is a shortage of drivers because many are older themselves. My husband is 5 years younger and has diabetes. He is the shopper and wants to do it so he gets what he wants. We could use Walmart pickup but don’t like their meat. Once he is working out of town I will use it for everything but meat which will mean less time in a store. I wouldn’t want to take a spot away from people older than me who need it more for others to shop for them . Everyone gets to determine their own level of risk because we are all adults.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

Didn't you say you are over 50? You are a senior! It is easy for you to say let someone else shop for me. Some of us don't have family or don't want others picking out our food. I shop every 3 weeks. I don't think that is excessive and if you do, who cares? BTW.. shopping was never fun.

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Check the ages for special senior hours, and for senior discounts most places. I think you are confusing the age of eligibility for AARP which is 50 with senior citizen as defined by pretty much everyone else. It has occurred to me that I could find cleaning supplies if I went to the store during senior hour before they sold out, and with my gray hair I probably could get in without being challenged, but I am honest and am not doing that. Also since I have to go to work I'm already exposed to germs, it's not like I can stay safe by having someone else shop for me.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Meals on wheels is for people that can’t cook for themselves....Everyone gets to determine their own level of risk because we are all adults.

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Meals on Wheels is operated by different agencies in different states. I am well aware of their traditional mission. Some agencies are expanding that during the pandemic. Other groups are as well. You are not interested and don't want to connect with do gooders - your choice, but it does not mean they are not out there.

Everyone does not get to determine their own level of risk. The government is putting in place many mandates. A pastor in my state has been repeatedly fined. Before each service he had ServPro come in to sanitize, congregants sat 6 feet apart and wore masks, etc. It did not matter. Freedom of religion and other rights are being taken away, but not the right to shop or, in Nevada, eat out in a restaurant.

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Originally Posted by bae

I have been present for many many deaths, and my impression is similar.

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I lost count of how many deaths I witnessed in my years of trauma Surgery. I was with Dad, then a good friend (at the family's request), then my BIL, then my Mom as well. I would not give up being present for them. I believe it is a privilege to support someone during transition be it stranger or family. I once experienced the patient leaving the OR before the pulse and BP changes began. He hovered in the OR until he flatlined and then promptly left.

Yes, with family/friend, it took awhile before the person's appearance in the final moment disappeared in my head and the living person took front stage. But it happens through the grieving process and now I have to really call it up and haven't done that for quite some time.

Death is the final stage of life. I don't think one should be alone. I'm on a RN Covid support group. RNs are staying with their patients, talking to them, holding their hands until they die. Then calling the families and providing as much detail as is requested. Families are grateful to know their loved one was not alone.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

Everyone does not get to determine their own level of risk. The government is putting in place many mandates.

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I have vehicles that are capable of exceeding 200mph, that handle well, that have amazing brakes, and that are well-maintained. I also have lots of professional high speed, evasive, dirt track, offroad, and emergency vehicle driving training, and decades of track time.

And yet there are speed limits, and I sorta-kinda follow them. Heck, I even wear seat belts.

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Originally Posted by bae

And yet there are speed limits

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Not everywhere. Not on the autobahn if you are driving a car as opposed to a truck, not in various other countries, and within my lifetime not in Montana.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

Not everywhere. Not on the autobahn if you are driving a car as opposed to a truck, not in various other countries, and within my lifetime not in Montana.

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I used to do a yearly 2-laps-of-Montana road rally every year, when they "didn't have a speed limit". In fact, they did - at nighttime it dropped to 55mph, and during the daytime it was "reasonable and prudent", and left to the discretion of the law enforcement officers. I had some chats with them about what their standards were, and they were pretty well thought out. You could not go arbitrarily fast in an arbitrary passenger vehicle.

The Autobahn certainly has speed limits in many sensible sections, and there is a Richtgeschwindigkeit of 130 km/hr on the others, which causes you to assume significant liability if you are involved in an accident above that speed. They also limit the types of vehicles allowed to go that fast, and they also have more stringent vehicle inspection and driver training requirements than we have in the US.

Etc. etc.

But you know this all...

I have filled out paperwork and helped people here get meals on wheels doing volunteer work. I have colleagues still working in the field. Social workers have their hands full so won’t steal resources from people much older than us.

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Originally Posted by Yppej

Meals on Wheels is operated by different agencies in different states. I am well aware of their traditional mission. Some agencies are expanding that during the pandemic. Other groups are as well. You are not interested and don't want to connect with do gooders - your choice, but it does not mean they are not out there.

Everyone does not get to determine their own level of risk. The government is putting in place many mandates. A pastor in my state has been repeatedly fined. Before each service he had ServPro come in to sanitize, congregants sat 6 feet apart and wore masks, etc. It did not matter. Freedom of religion and other rights are being taken away, but not the right to shop or, in Nevada, eat out in a restaurant.

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If it were up to you, you would take away more rights. Especially those who you perceive should not be out and about. Hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

If it were up to you, you would take away more rights. Especially those who you perceive should not be out and about. Hypocrisy.

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I would not make it mandatory for seniors to stay home. I would not fine them $300 the way people who practice their religion or who don't wear a mask are being fined. But I would strongly suggest it and I would set up delivery services to support it. I would as in Texas let them stay home and still collect unemployment insurance if called back to work. I would not crash the economy and take away other people"s rights if seniors choose to leave home. I believe in the right to die including assisted suicide. If seniors choose to recklessly risk exposure and die let them but don't turn our society upside down to protect them.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

I have filled out paperwork and helped people here get meals on wheels doing volunteer work. I have colleagues still working in the field. Social workers have their hands full so won’t steal resources from people much older than us.

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Again, Meals on Wheels is expanding due to covid 19. This is not taking anything away from those who were already receiving services. Here is an article on it:

https://www.mealsonwheelsamerica.org...uring-pandemic

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Originally Posted by Yppej

I would not make it mandatory for seniors to stay home. I would not fine them $300 the way people who practice their religion or who don't wear a mask are being fined. But I would strongly suggest it and I would set up delivery services to support it. I would as in Texas let them stay home and still collect unemployment insurance if called back to work. I would not crash the economy and take away other people"s rights if seniors choose to leave home. I believe in the right to die including assisted suicide. If seniors choose to recklessly risk exposure and die let them but don't turn our society upside down to protect them.

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It is a good thing you have no clout.

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Originally Posted by frugal-one

It is a good thing you have no clout.

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In multiple news conference I have heard Donald Trump say even one death from covid is too much. So your approach of trying to save everyone no matter how high risk or the costs to everyone else is certainly not unique.

ETA Do you remember bubble boy, who couldn't risk bumping into hard surfaces or he would bleed to death? Maybe we should reconfigure our whole society because he would like to leave home. Maybe even in hot weather we should all walk around in thick uncomfortable quilted padding to protect him. We can't risk losing even one life, there is no cost/benefit analysis to be done.

No one's freedom of religion is being impinged upon--maybe freedom of assembly--but churches can hold virtual services and/or broadcast sermons. With luck, this is a temporary situation. One of those defiant pastors* met his maker a little sooner than he anticipated.

*https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/de...of-coronavirus

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In multiple news conference I have heard Donald Trump say even one death from covid is too much. So your approach of trying to save everyone no matter how high risk or the costs to everyone else is certainly not unique.

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You really think this is Donald Trump's policy? Donald Trump says a lot of things, 99.5% of which have no correspondence with shared reality. Back in the real world this isn't his approach, and it strikes me as nearly impossible to argue it is.

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Originally Posted by bae

A simple cloth mask is in essence creating "virtual distance". The point isn't that it is a Level A Hazmat suit.

A simple cloth mask adds several feet to the effective distance between you and another. Which is huge if you do the math, given the cubic nature of 3 dimensional space. (There are some other useful considerations involving air exchange rates in enclosed spaces).

Wearing a mask in circumstances where you can't maintain 6+ feet of distance is A Good Thing generally.

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exactly why I wear a mask when I am very infrequently am out with any possibility of contact. I walk at 6 am to avoid people. Besides the obvious greater difficulty of swapping spit, masks make it more difficult to touch your nose and mouth which is another good thing. Also, I avoid any closed spaces where people are which seem to make things more hazardous. I’m willing to forgo picking out my own pineapple for a few months if it puts me at lower risk to contaminate others and doesn’t add to the burden placed on medical workers. They have been the true heroes and sometimes victims in all of this.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

exactly why I wear a mask when I am very infrequently am out with any possibility of contact. I walk at 6 am to avoid people. Besides the obvious greater difficulty of swapping spit, masks make it more difficult to touch your nose and mouth which is another good thing. Also, I avoid any closed spaces where people are which seem to make things more hazardous. I’m willing to forgo picking out my own pineapple for a few months if it puts me at lower risk to contaminate others and doesn’t add to the burden placed on medical workers. They have been the true heroes and sometimes victims in all of this.

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this is pretty much what I do, although I’ve not been successful in using shopping services. DH does shopping. I also don’t walk early to avoid people I’m always meeting people on the sidewalk but honestly everyone steps aside and it seems to me that 6 feet more or less are maintained.


I did observe one guy running at me spit on the ground on the sidewalk and I thought to myself well yeah OK I should really be keeping my shoes outside. In the early weeks of thisI did start a program to keep my shoes outside in that truck stuff in the house but I gave up on that. I do periodically put my slides-on shoes in the dishwasher

I’m a little ashamed to admit it, but during my tenure as a civil servant, the “one death is too many” platitude/argument was something of a joke. A politician or citizen would resort to it whenever they lacked the evidence to prove a point. Not being responsible for allocating limited resources or setting priorities, it nevertheless makes you sound caring and foresighted.

I remember once that our Sheriff was making a pitch for (fairly expensive) horse patrols in our county parks. A board member asked him what the record of crime in the parks was. Rather than admit it was fairly minimal, we were treated to an extended rant of the even one would be too many variety.

The corollary was the “how many people have to die before you do something” gambit. It was often associated with what we called “grieving mother syndrome”. The basic format was high school kid gets drunk and kills self and others by crashing into a tree or rolling his car. The mother than decides the kid’s death was due to the road’s design rather than the dear departed’s blood alcohol content. Tearful phone calls, public hearings and letters to the editor ensue. In some cases a project is authorized that takes precedence over correcting a much more dangerous situation. It was common to ask questions like “how many people have to die before you change that light bulb? “

One refreshing aspect of military service was when you asked that question, they could provide you with an estimate.

My mother has turned into a shopaholic. Since yesterday she has gone to at least 4 more stores. I tried to enlist my father in getting her to stay put but he said she has cabin fever and needs to get out. This mask thing has gotten people totally out of control. Before the mask mandate more people were staying home, now it is a free-for-all. The stores are more crowded than before including with many elderly. I guess it is a distraction from the anxiety of possibly dying to go places and do things.

As a former social worker programs have requirements. You have to FINANCIALLY QUALIFY. Locally we are short of drivers because most of the volunteers are retired. I am done explaining this to you.