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Almost 5 weeks now with a mask mandate in California and the situation there continues to deteriorate, making headlines again today. "The worst it has been since the pandemic began" per the LA Times article below. Epic failed policy to rely on masks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...s-cases-deaths
No public health expert calls for masks alone they call for other measures of the type yeppej also opposes (remember yeppej wanted to open things up).
How much of a difference wearing a mask makes:
https://www.npr.org/2020/07/21/89341...g-a-mask-makes
The states that are doing well are doing the opposite of anything yeppej recommends.
Of course. Who didn't see that coming. Doh.
I can't believe anyone thinks mandate means everyone follows it, especially in CA, where without massive outreach to many different communities it isn't going to happen anyway, and not so much of that as far as I've seen.
So called pent up demand on the economic side means economy returns to only part of what it was pre-corona even then and only for a month or so. I mean that's what the economic data tends to be. Now if there is a pent up demand for parties at people's houses or something, hmm ok, how would one ever get data on that, but that is really a very separate issue from economic opening it seems to me.
So Florida is too dangerous to have a political convention but safe enough for kids to go back to school. I guess we now have schrodinger’s virus.
Utah reports 267 deaths due to coronavirus.
There was a "spike" in new cases on the dates 7/8/20 through 7/11/20, when the state reported over 1,000 per day. The President of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wrote a letter to members dated 7/10/20 asking that they wear face masks in public, as a call to minister to one another.
The state government uses a color code to communicate to Utahans:
Green "lowest risk", applies in 10 Utah counties.
Yellow "low risk"
Orange "moderate risk"
Orange localities have restrictions based on public health concerns about the spread of COVID-19:
Maximum 20 persons in a social gathering.
Leave home infrequently.
Maintain social distance of at least 6 feet.
Wear face covering in public.
Limit out-of-state-travel.
In high contact businesses (such as barbers) strict protocols must be observed.
In restaurants take out is encouraged; extreme precautions are required for dining in restaurants.
In all workplaces: strict hygiene and social distancing.
At present, the town of Springfield and the counties of Salt Lake, Summit, and Grand are the Orange areas of Utah. I believe that areas which are now Yellow will be designated Orange, when (if) the 7-day moving average of new cases increases above a certain criterion.
Governor Herbert has been reluctant to mandate masks in public, but masks are mandatory for all who enter state-run facilities (such as liquor stores, DMV, Capitol Hill, etc.).
Most Utah residents are not without restrictions, considering all of the above.
http://coronavirus.utah.gov
There are liquor stores in Utah? huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by dado potato
Interesting insights, tho.
I'm not sure I couldn't see an argument for not wearing masks and letting the thing get out of control so that we could FINALLY get our @#$# state and local government to DO SOMETHING.
Because at is now, they don't care if locally there are 2k cases a day and state wide over 10k. It means absolutely nothing to them that a ton of people are getting sick a day. 10% positivity and they are still BS-ing about opening schools (the unions will stop some of that). Maybe we need to overwhelm the hospital system in order to get them to take this seriously, and bring an end to the mass sickness because they finally get serious about controlling it.
Because meanwhile the northeast has this thing under much better control. And they got there by going through a crisis early on and then doing a strict long lockdown and then having contract tracing etc. etc.. Please don't tell me they got there by electing more and better Democrats, because California is unequivocally Dem dominated (well the Dems could be better ones).
We may never get there. How bad it was there, scared their governments into not being garbage and taking the actions they needed to take. But controlled burn through the population forever the government is perfectly fine with and if it kills MORE in the long run, la-de-da they just don't care.
How difficult would it have been to take precautions early, study countries who did it right, and follow suit?
Stupidity and arrogance are a bad combination.
The liquor stores in Utah are operated by an agency of the state government.Quote:
Originally Posted by KayLR
Incidentally today they are all closed for State Holiday celebrating the 7/24/1847 entry of Brigham Young and the Mormon pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley.
“ I'm not sure I couldn't see an argument for not wearing masks and letting the thing get out of control so ...”
There’s so many negatives in that sentence that I can’t figure out which side you’re on. Ha!
Tammy, wondering where you were, you must be getting better :)
Yea I'm pretty negative about the situation :~)
I'm on the side of controlling the spread of the virus and minimizing deaths but I don't think masks alone are going to make this go away (bring R below 1) and our politicians here seem to be content with what I see as an unacceptable status quo. They seem to have settled on a plan of letting 2.5k people get sick with this a day indefinitely as long as it doesn't increase well beyond that (and sometimes I'm not even sure if they care if it DOES increase well beyond that, I don't know why they are trying to get waivers to open up schools with 10% testing positivity).
And I see the northeast is doing better (for the time being, I know things can change), and I wonder why we can't do likewise. Maybe because we didn't have a really bad period early on, and maybe we never will. But 2.5k people getting this every day, up to 12k a day statewide. Maybe those states with an early really bad crisis are actually better off in the end in terms of number of people getting sick from this, as their governments took it seriously.
I don't like that we have to learn the hard way, but we don't seem to learn the easy way, although I'm not even sure we would learn the hard way either.
My bf is currently more at risk than me because of his work situation and the coworker living with a confirmed covid case who is now in quarantine. Yes I saw my bf last weekend, but I am now quarantining from my bf temporarily >8) Gah.
I’m on day 16 of my covid experience. Most of the aches and pains are gone. I’m still sleeping 16-18 hours a day. I can do one 10 minute something (a shower for example) and then I need to rest again. Other symptoms come and go also. As soon as I pronounce a symptom gone, it returns. So I guess only speak for the moment ...
Sure is!Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Tammy, thanks for the update.
Tammy: I'm glad you are at least moving in the right direction. How id DH doing?
ANM: I think our state government has done a spectacular job, but it amazes me to see so much hatred directed at our governor for trying to keep us alive and make the virus go away.
Tammy, hope you get to the point soon where symptoms go away and STAY away!
That's mystifying and appalling to me, too--this irrational and sometimes violent response to temporary common-sense restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosarugosa
RR the difference is probably that you are retired but other people still need to work and see their livelihoods in jeopardy.
Better-run nations addressed that with strict early shutdowns paired with stipends so workers weren't left to fend for themselves and businesses didn't have to shut down permanently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
Bet the states in the U.S. that did a good job with the virus if they continue to, end up doing far better economically in the end. No that isn't California at this point obviously.
It's painfully obvious now that early and decisive shutdowns would have saved lives, businesses, and mounting frustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
Last week, a group of people in Australia were caught at a birthday party in violation of new lockdown orders amid a surge in COVID-19 cases.
Police issued fines to 16 people, totally more than $18,000. The fines might seem steep, but they serve a purpose in encouraging people who should know better to follow the rules and take the coronavirus pandemic seriously --- the article stated.
Can you imagine the outrage if that was done here? .. or it may make people think???
We have a lot of laws that seem unnecessary to me, but I follow them--and would expect a citation if I didn't--and they don't involve a deadly virus.
I'm convinced that nothing could make some people think...
I doubt it's against the law to go maskless in any democracy. It may violate a regulation but I don't think any democracy worthy of its name would prosecute it as a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
Husband recovered faster - it took him about a week.
For much of our history public health authorities did indeed have police power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569983/
“The uncontrollable nature of epidemic diseases moved the Supreme Court to uphold such extreme measures on the basis of the defense of the common good.8 The communitarian philosophy underlying this approach was carried into later judicial holdings, further consolidating states' exercise of public health police power.”
I’m in Mackinaw City, MI in the Straits of Mackinac this weekend for a diving trip. Friday night friends from OH who were camping out had my dive buddy, his wife, and I for a BBQ. Social distancing maintained. No masks as we were outside. Tonight the three of us ate at a restaurant (Darrow’s). 50% capacity. Long wait to get in, even at 5pm. Lots of people in the area. Came across a very small wedding on the beach yesterday. Mackinac Bridge in the background. Maybe 20 guests. Got a lovely photo of them with the bridge in the background. Got the pic to the bride’s mom as it was a good one. They had some snacks on the beach (it’s a park) afterward. Very nice.
Thanks for the laughs, as I read above "no masks on a diving trip". Must be really good at holding your breath.:laff:
Then the thought of the three of you, wearing your diving gear to the restaurant.
Haha. Glad to amuse you! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ToomuchStuff
Just got home. Drove through the UP of Michigan and WI for the drive home. On the way there I went through IN and then MI. Just shy of 1000 miles in 48 hours for two dives. We were cancelled today due to bad storms, so I came home today instead of tomorrow. Dives were fabulous.
Saw most people wearing masks. A few without. A few wearing them incorrectly. But mostly wearing them.
That sounds like a lovely Michigan wedding, Tradd, and they will treasure that photo.
Prayers for a quick recovery, Tammy. I'm sorry I'm just now seeing this. Hang in there - this blasted virus really is doing a number on Arizona. So much for sunlight and Summer making the virus go away - especially with the nonsoon we are having and the more intense than usual heat we are having this Summer. Feel better!!! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Tammy
Yep.....they are run by the State. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by KayLR
I strongly second this! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by happystuff
Not only did bf and his coworkers test negative, but even the coworker of his LIVING WITH a coronavirus positive tested negative and has been staying home for awhile. So that workplace is spared the coronavirus for now it seems, despite it being close at hand, and I'm no longer quarantining from my bf. They do 6 feet distancing and masks and stuff anyway but we have significant community spread so practices alone can only reduce risk so much, with so much coronavirus out there and it being able to travel in the air.
That's good news, proving to me that masks and distancing work.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
California hit another record today. Obviously masks aren't helping, and maybe they are even hurting. The people who struggle to breathe the most when wearing masks are also the people at highest risk of covid due to underlying respiratory conditions. Exacerbating their breathing difficulties by making them wear masks in hot weather is cruel and unusual punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
Actually it's the re-opening that's not working. San Francisco never re-opened indoor dining and our daily case count remains stable, with 52, 42 and 31 for the last 3 days. Orange County, on the other hand, reopened them mid-June and had 646 cases today. They have 4x the population but 10x the new daily cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
If people have respiratory issues unfortunately they just need to stay home because too many selfish people like Louie Gohmert refuse to take precautions like wearing masks to keep others safe.
I've seen video of a doctor wearing six masks simultaneously and demonstrating that his oxygen saturation remained stable at 99 percent. I saw an article about another doctor who ran an entire race wearing one. I have a hard time believing anyone's breathing is impaired by one. People with sensory or anxiety issues are a different matter.
I do not have any respiratory issues but I can get faint and dizzy wearing a mask when it is hot and humid.
+10,000Quote:
Actually it's the re-opening that's not working.
The errors in reasoning going on are basic, but:
1) Compliance. You can mandate masks all you want and it's great if this improves mask wearing in public places, that is reason enough to favor a mandate period. But if people have house parties without masks noone is enforcing it, if employers are letting people not wear masks especially in indoor jobs that's illegal and a problem (probably more low wage jobs where this happens), if people are living in extremely crowded conditions and not wearing masks at home it can be a problem too.
2) Even with perfect compliance, people wear masks at house parties, masks are not 100% effective. That masks are not 100% effective is being used to argue that masks are 0% effective is a real reasoning error. Black and white, all or nothing thinking.
In order to prove that masks aren't helping you would need some alternate California where noone was wearing masks and there were no laws to wear masks and show "no difference in cases". This doesn't exist. The states that are doing well in comparison to California pretty much all require masks and have weeks before California did. But it wasn't the only policy. I think there is some straw manning going on that many people advocate masks as the ONLY policy. Hint: if politicians do this follow the money, and if Trump admin does it just ignore it, but public health advocates mostly don't, politicians being rather corruptible, well that's not news.
L.A. county is reporting near 5k cases today (that includes backlog so average is more like 2-3k). Restaurants were opened end of May. They are planning on 15% of people to have got it by December. The number of people who got it in NYC in the peak was only 20% or so based on what we hear about antibodies. Yes if it's spread out in time it won't overwhelm hospitals. But they WANT to infect 15%, that is literally THE PLAN.Quote:
San Francisco never re-opened indoor dining and our daily case count remains stable, with 52, 42 and 31 for the last 3 days. Orange County, on the other hand, reopened them mid-June and had 646 cases today. They have 4x the population but 10x the new daily cases.