Article: 87 year old hoarder facing eviction (warning: incredibly sad)

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Again, I would say two years ago is not out in front of this issue. I think mental health services need to be in there a the first sign of hoarding.

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ah yes the delusional belief in this society that "mental health [care]" is the answer to all human problems. It should be available for those who wish to use it sure (and one could argue more readily available than it is fine). But how does the old joke about shrinks and a light bulb go, "it has to want to change". Sometimes someone can be nudged to change, but that is usually how it works best when there is a want to change.

Never even mention what kind of nightmare watching people all the time for the first signs of hoarding will be ... (and forcing them into mental health care? that's more risky than what is done to drunk drivers, at least they are only forced into 12 steps, not into the mental health system ...)

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

ah yes the delusional belief in this society that "mental health [care]" is the answer to all human problems. It should be available for those who wish to use it sure (and one could argue more readily available than it is fine). But how does the old joke about shrinks and a light bulb go, "it has to want to change". Sometimes someone can be nudged to change, but that is usually how it works best when there is a want to change.

Never even mention what kind of nightmare watching people all the time for the first signs of hoarding will be ...

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Well, I don't think waiting until the last minute and then barging in and evacuating the place is a good plan. Why? Because that can make a hoarder suicidal.

Watching people all the time? How about, keeping an eye on your neighbor to make sure they are okay/their stuff is not getting stolen/their house is not getting vandalism/dude ain't beating his wife, etc.

We watch people all the time to make sure they are okay -- the kid crossing the street, the old lady climbing the stairs, the cyclist on the side of the road.

So you notice Billy Joe Jim Bob, your neighbor, is starting to exhibit some hoarding problems. You contact some mental health services. Maybe they can get in there early and help.

But I am curious. What is your amazing plan to fix these situations?
Don't be shy. We're just spitballing ideas here.

I hope I can reach the end of my life without having a neighbor who watches me for signs of hoarding and then "helpfully" contacts mental health services.

So far, so good, but I guess we have to be on the alert for such threats to our freedom and our right to live in peace with our own choices.

If it was a stand alone dwelling, really nothing, unless it was a major rodent etc. problem for the neighbors or something, then yea. With an apartment it is more complex as it is directly connected to the other apartments, landlords can generally evict when they want (renters rights are seldom that strong), so perhaps they should just give an eviction warning.

I think the watching people all the time is a small town thing, which is why I have trouble relating to it, as most people mind their own business in my experience. Which is a blessing and a curse overall, but does sound preferable to always watching for the first sign of hoarding. Hoarding probably falls into eccentricity, not a very interesting eccentricity perhaps, and at a certain point harmful to the eccentric, but nonetheless. Eccentricity is what makes human life interesting.

The mental health thing is ambiguous, it's often been fairly coercive, long history of this. Is the number of deaths from hoarding even a problem that needs fixing? Yes ok all unnecessary deaths are tragic. And yes the landlord can evict to protect his building and other tenants oftentimes. But put into context. Is riding one's bicycle everywhere more dangerous? Don't answer that, it almost certainly is, as I certainly know people who got badly messed up that way.

I am amazed at the amount of info on this issue for firefighters. http://chamberofhoarders.com/ This was just one site with specific examples of the dangers.

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Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore

If it was a stand alone dwelling, really nothing, unless it was a major rodent etc. problem for the neighbors or something, then yea. With an apartment it is more complex as it is directly connected to the other apartments, landlords can generally evict when they want (renters rights are seldom that strong), so perhaps they should just give an eviction warning.

I think the watching people all the time is a small town thing, which is why I have trouble relating to it, as most people mind their own business in my experience. Which is a blessing and a curse overall, but does sound preferable to always watching for the first sign of hoarding. Hoarding probably falls into eccentricity, not a very interesting eccentricity perhaps, and at a certain point harmful to the eccentric, but nonetheless. Eccentricity is what makes human life interesting.

The mental health thing is ambiguous, it's often been fairly coercive, long history of this. Is the number of deaths from hoarding even a problem that needs fixing? Yes ok all unnecessary deaths are tragic. And yes the landlord can evict to protect his building and other tenants oftentimes. But put into context. Is riding one's bicycle everywhere more dangerous? Don't answer that, it almost certainly is, as I certainly know people who got badly messed up that way.

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One more thing to throw in there is how a hoarded house effects a neighborhood -- and not just if there is a fire that could leap from building to building.

Some hoarder houses stink. Would you want hoarders whose house stinks right next to your house? And why does it stink? Or suppose you want to sell your house in North Dakota and move to sunny Arizona. Oh, wait... no one wants to buy your house because it is right next to a hoarder's house.

Other problems for the community arise, not just fires.

Remember, this is not some issue I am just waxing on about. My mom and dad are compulsive hoarders. My grandma on my mom's side was a compulsive hoarder. My best friend from my old neighborhood (we went to school together from middle school until graduating from college), his mom is a compulsive hoarder.

So it might not be spy vs. spy like you think it is. It might be that you notice your 2nd cousin's mom has a problem so you contact mental health services. Or maybe you are over at your friend's dad's house and realize he lives in a tinderbox and smokes stogies on the daily. Might went to talk to Fire Marshal Bill about that.

See? It is not necessarily Big Brother. It stems from the same concern you'd have if your neighbor's wife had black eyes and fat lips every week or two after you heard yelling from their bedroom next door.

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Originally Posted by UltraliteAngler

Remember, this is not some issue I am just waxing on about. My mom and dad are compulsive hoarders. My grandma on my mom's side was a compulsive hoarder. . . .
See? It is not necessarily Big Brother. It stems from the same concern you'd have if your neighbor's wife had black eyes and fat lips every week or two after you heard yelling from their bedroom next door.

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That has to be really hard. Are you thinking about reporting your parents? If so, to whom would you report them?

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Originally Posted by bae

And generally those have notification requirements, the landlord can't just barge in on the tenants willy-nilly, they have the right to "quiet enjoyment" of their home.

I did however once recently use my inspection clause to make entry to a rented unit belonging to my mother that we suspected was Going South, and gathered enough information there to allow law enforcement to get a warrant. Horrible thing, a perfectly nice family descended into Meth Hell in about 3 months.

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True on no immediate entry typically. But if this woman and her sons could clean up the issue in 24 hours, we wouldn't be talking about it.

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Originally Posted by sweetana3

In this case, they have worked with her for over 2 years trying to get her to help find a solution. She has been to court twice over this issue. Her supporters apparently are stating that the stuff is a museum and should be allowed to stay. Now they are trying to get the public involved because she has lost the legal issue.

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It being a museum would make it a public place and subject to more stringent safety codes. Locally there has been a push in the last few years, to increase inspections of rental HOMES (not just apartments) and make the owners fall under many of the same restrictions, after so many problems with low income area's and slum lords. That would mean the landlord would have to place a 24 hour notice, and then appear with the inspector, who would treat it as a commercial building.
There has of course been push back and forth, by owners/good tenants and owners/poor tenants and neighbors of them.

Not sure after at least a two year fight, how surprising this whole thing or the strong eviction possibility is. Trying to place ones head in the sand, doesn't make life go away.

Once you are impacting your neighbors, etc then something needs to be done. It is sad but the sons have had 2 years to help their Mom fix this situation. This is not a surprise. I don't believe we should watch people & report to MH. People only change when it is less painful then staying the same. I am all for therapy but you have to want the help-ie to change.

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Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

Once you are impacting your neighbors, etc then something needs to be done. It is sad but the sons have had 2 years to help their Mom fix this situation. This is not a surprise. I don't believe we should watch people & report to MH. People only change when it is less painful then staying the same. I am all for therapy but you have to want the help-ie to change.

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But at the same time, waiting until the last minute or until the place goes up in flames or collapses is not a good solution.