Why NOT to vote Republican

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6-23-22, 8:42am
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I agree the capitol coupsters should have been met by an overwhelming response, but Trump didn't authorize any response for hours, aside from the overwhelmed Capitol Police, so people who had training in detaining unruly tourists--and not in hand-to-hand combat--were hung out to dry, with disastrous results.

"(I mean, *I'd* equate them in a way - in both cases, I would have preferred such an incredible and overwhelming armed police response that it would be remembered for generations, to discourage other idiots in the future....)"

You mean like Kent State is remembered? Again, we have a constitutional right to protest in this country. I don't want to live in a totalitarian society where you can be jailed for dissent, and we seem to be heading that way.

The US President is not responsible for security at the US capital. Trump had no authority to “authorize a response”; which I think is a good thing that there was no Praetorian Guard to add to the mix.
6-23-22, 9:12am
Tybee

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

Was our constitutional order really endangered by this buffoonery? Of course Trump was spouting BS. Maybe even criminally so. But doesn’t it take a similar level of hysteria to insist that we were a hair’s breadth away from buffalo-hatted fascism?

Or are certain parties desperate for a distraction from issues in the real world?

You characterize an armed mob, constructing a gallows, breaking into the capital and coming within 40 feet of the target, the vice president of the United States, with the intention to murder him, "buffoonery"? You think that the hearings are because the democratic party is desperate for a distraction?

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
6-23-22, 9:19am
JaneV2.0

Hitler failed at a coup attempt in 1923, and was jailed for five years. Apparently, you can't keep a bad man down, either.

The most chilling anecdote in the January 6 narrative was Mike Pence demurring "I'm not getting in that car" when the Secret Service came to collect him.

"Pence clearly knew what Trump might have had in store for him if he didn’t overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election as Trump had demanded. “It’s anybody’s guess what could have happened — martial law, civil war. You know, the beginning of authoritarianism,” Rep. Raskin said, speculating on what might have unfolded if the plan was successful. “I want people to pay attention to what’s going on here, because that’s as close to fascism as I ever want my country to come to." (HillReporter, April 23, 2022)
6-23-22, 9:56am
iris lilies

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

The US President is not responsible for security at the US capital. Trump had no authority to “authorize a response”; which I think is a good thing that there was no Praetorian Guard to add to the mix.

That was my immediate thought too, that Donald Trump doesn’t run law enforcement.

I suppose he could always put pressure on whichever government official runs the local National Guard ( I don’t know how that works in Washington DC) but calling out a national guard would have… taken a while.
6-23-22, 9:57am
iris lilies

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Hitler failed at a coup attempt in 1923, and was jailed for five years. Apparently, you can't keep a bad man down, either.

The most chilling anecdote in the January 6 narrative was Mike Pence demurring "I'm not getting in that car" when the Secret Service came to collect him.

"Pence clearly knew what Trump might have had in store for him if he didn’t overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election as Trump had demanded. “It’s anybody’s guess what could have happened — martial law, civil war. You know, the beginning of authoritarianism,” Rep. Raskin said, speculating on what might have unfolded if the plan was successful. “I want people to pay attention to what’s going on here, because that’s as close to fascism as I ever want my country to come to." (HillReporter, April 23, 2022)

Pence did not want to be seen leaving. The optics of him not being there, And the actuality of him being there, are important. It is your own spin that you think he had concern about what Donald Trump had in store for him.
6-23-22, 10:22am
gimmethesimplelife

I've got to say that I really resent the Texas GOP. They are making an already polarized country more unstable. With this talk of secession - and who in their right mind would flee to Texas to become part of a new Texas nation? Human life won't likely be worth Medicare or SS there - what would be in it for you?

And I really resent the line about Abnormal lifestyle choice. I need my bills paid by anyone who would judge me just to justify being judged in.the first place.

Thankfully I have no need to add show my face in the cesspool of Texas anytime.soon if ever.

Rob
6-23-22, 10:23am
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by iris lilies

Pence did not want to be seen leaving. The optics of him not being there, And the actuality of him being there, are important. It is your own spin that you think he had concern about what Donald Trump had in store for him.

Not my spin; I wasn't there. From Only I Can Fix It (Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker)

Speaking about the threats to Pence on Jan. 6 and the chants by rioters to hang him, Raskin said the vice president's Secret Service agents — including one who was carrying the nuclear football — ran down to an undisclosed place in the Capitol. Those agents, who Raskin said he suspects were reporting to Trump’s Secret Service agents, were trying to whisk Pence away from the Capitol. Pence then "uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I've seen so far: 'I'm not getting in that car,'" Raskin said. "He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do," Raskin said.
6-23-22, 10:25am
gimmethesimplelife

Forgot to add - I promised my family in Austria I would not enter Texas until it's safe again, if ever. My family is worried specifically about secession - they have not featured the rest of the Texas GOP's insanity in the Austrian media.

Rob
6-23-22, 10:54am
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tybee

You characterize an armed mob, constructing a gallows, breaking into the capital and coming within 40 feet of the target, the vice president of the United States, with the intention to murder him, "buffoonery"? You think that the hearings are because the democratic party is desperate for a distraction?

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I think some dumb people did some dumb things that day, and some bad people did some bad things. I think criminal actions merit a law enforcement response. But I don’t think the republic was at serious risk of collapse.

I wouldn’t particularly mind seeing DJT eating prison food, but I also think trying to keep fear alive is a desperation move by a party staring down an electoral catastrophe.
6-23-22, 10:58am
JaneV2.0

Isn't the logical result of Federalism that we'll have fifty states all going their own way? Like the South can reinstate Jim Crow--if not outright slavery--and the Southwest can consider joining Mexico?
6-23-22, 11:43am
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Isn't the logical result of Federalism that we'll have fifty states all going their own way? Like the South can reinstate Jim Crow--if not outright slavery--and the Southwest can consider joining Mexico?

I think it means states can go their own way so long as they don’t violate the rules they agreed to when they ratified the constitution. I don’t think we require an all-powerful central government fine-tuning our lives for us as the only alternative to chaos.
6-23-22, 11:48am
bae

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

I think it means states can go their own way so long as they don’t violate the rules they agreed to when they ratified the constitution.

I think that was the whole point of the US Constitution in fact.

Quote:

I don’t think we require an all-powerful central government fine-tuning our lives for us as the only alternative to chaos.

There seems to be a desire by some to treat states as simply quaint lines on a map, but clearly administrative districts incapable of dealing with their own affairs.

https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/d...6141/cre22.png
6-23-22, 11:48am
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

I think it means states can go their own way so long as they don’t violate the rules they agreed to when they ratified the constitution. I don’t think we require an all-powerful central government fine-tuning our lives for us as the only alternative to chaos.

Slavery was legal when the Constitution was ratified; huge cohorts of people were disenfranchised, etc.
6-23-22, 11:50am
bae

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Slavery was legal when the Constitution was ratified; huge cohorts of people were disenfranchised, etc.

And then, as time moved along, we modified the Constitution, using the provisions previously-agreed-upon.
6-23-22, 11:53am
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by bae

And then, as time moved along, we modified the Constitution, using the provisions previously-agreed-upon.

I'd like to believe it is "a living document."
6-23-22, 11:57am
bae

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I'd like to believe it is "a living document."

Well, it contains within it the directions for modifying it, so, yes, of course it is.

It does not contain however any text suggesting "if you don't like what this says, you can just make up random stuff and run with it".
6-23-22, 12:03pm
Alan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

Slavery was legal when the Constitution was ratified; huge cohorts of people were disenfranchised, etc.

That's because the Constitution didn't address slavery as that was considered a states issue until it became an issue the Federal Government could use to punish the southern states. And even then the Emancipation Proclamation only applied to those states the Feds deemed to be "in rebellion".

I'm not sure why our Juneteenth celebrations are based upon the abolition of slavery in Texas when slavery was still legal in northern states such as New Jersey for an additional year or so afterwards. I can only surmise it's part of an ongoing effort to demean the south.
6-23-22, 12:04pm
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by bae

I think that was the whole point of the US Constitution in fact.

There seems to be a desire by some to treat states as simply quaint lines on a map, but clearly administrative districts incapable of dealing with their own affairs.

https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/d...6141/cre22.png

What I like about the constitution is that it devotes so much space to what the federal government can’t do, and the various checks it puts on various players to prevent the exercise of arbitrary power.
6-23-22, 12:13pm
bae

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

What I like about the constitution is that it devotes so much space to what the federal government can’t do, and the various checks it puts on various players to prevent the exercise of arbitrary power.

But, at the end of the day, it's only a piece of paper, and people have to have a shared desire to live by it.
6-23-22, 12:38pm
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by bae

But, at the end of the day, it's only a piece of paper, and people have to have a shared desire to live by it.

I think that by and large they do. The internet and much of the media give a disproportionate voice to the crazier outliers. One might feel that there are millions seething over Roe or guns or fraudulent voters or rigged elections based on what we hear, but that’s not what I get from regular, unaugmented people.
6-23-22, 1:27pm
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

That's because the Constitution didn't address slavery as that was considered a states issue until it became an issue the Federal Government could use to punish the southern states. ...

So should it still be a states' rights issue, in your opinion?

And the federal government only stepped in to "punish" the South? Not because the ownership of people is an abomination?
6-23-22, 1:44pm
Alan

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

So should it still be a states' rights issue, in your opinion?

And the federal government only stepped in to "punish" the South? Not because the ownership of people is an abomination?

It started as an economic issue, the south was becoming more prosperous than the north and the north was beginning to lose money from tariffs as southern ports began to take away their business. If the federal government had only had slavery in mind, the Emancipation Proclamation would have applied equally to all states rather than just the southern ones.

I guess you could say it's always been a states rights issue since the 13th Amendment required the states to ratify it. I believe New Jersey was the last state to ratify the amendment which is why slavery was only outlawed in that state in 1866, well after all the southern states were brought into line using unconstitutional means.
6-23-22, 1:53pm
ApatheticNoMore

I'm kind of okay with states having more power, but we need to somehow change the funding, but that's hard to do. Like states absolutely will never have more power, and it's silly to pretend they do, when I'm paying more than twice in federal taxes than state taxes, and the federal taxes do not directly trickle back to the states and the states don't have money issuing power really either. So financially the federal government is far more important than the states due to this, it's just a reality. And there is no easy fix, but federal government money trickling back to the states to administer might work. So anyway, I don't think it's much use to pretend states are more powerful than they are.

The states also need to be subject to democratic (small d) rule but that is another although related discussion. But if they are gerrymandered beyond all democratic accountability then they would just be little dictatorships.
Or as they have been called laboratories in autocracy: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...fb4-story.html

Canada seems to do federalism right. I mean their provinces seem highly functional. The U.S. doesn't really seem to do federalism right at all. Maybe our states are just too small. Although in population size some are, some aren't.
6-23-22, 4:02pm
catherine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

I believe New Jersey was the last state to ratify the amendment which is why slavery was only outlawed in that state in 1866, well after all the southern states were brought into line using unconstitutional means.

)
Nope....A Southern state--Mississippi was the last. Texas ratified it 4 years after NJ: (NJ 1866; TX 1870)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirte...s_Constitution
6-23-22, 4:18pm
Alan

Quote:

Originally Posted by catherine

)
Nope....A Southern state--Mississippi was the last. Texas ratified it 4 years after NJ: (NJ 1866; TX 1870)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirte...s_Constitution

That is technically true, although slavery was essentially outlawed by Federal force in both Texas and Mississippi by the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. I believe the last slaves in the south were freed when federal forces gained control of Texas in 1865 while the last slaves in the north were not freed until New Jersey freed them by amending their state constitution at the same time they voted to ratify the 13th Amendment in 1866.

I did mis-speak when declaring New Jersey as the last state to ratify, I should have said it was the last state to free slaves. Thanks for pointing that out.
6-23-22, 9:12pm
frugal-one

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

The US President is not responsible for security at the US capital. Trump had no authority to “authorize a response”; which I think is a good thing that there was no Praetorian Guard to add to the mix.

trump galvanized the thugs to the capital so he should have stopped it.
6-23-22, 9:16pm
frugal-one

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

I think some dumb people did some dumb things that day, and some bad people did some bad things. I think criminal actions merit a law enforcement response. But I don’t think the republic was at serious risk of collapse.

I wouldn’t particularly mind seeing DJT eating prison food, but I also think trying to keep fear alive is a desperation move by a party staring down an electoral catastrophe.

Are you watching the hearings? You, obviously, have blinders on.
6-23-22, 9:20pm
frugal-one

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

I think that by and large they do. The internet and much of the media give a disproportionate voice to the crazier outliers. One might feel that there are millions seething over Roe or guns or fraudulent voters or rigged elections based on what we hear, but that’s not what I get from regular, unaugmented people.

Haven't you seen the protests all over the country? Sheesh.
6-24-22, 12:19am
jp1

Quote:

Originally Posted by iris lilies

Pence did not want to be seen leaving. The optics of him not being there, And the actuality of him being there, are important. It is your own spin that you think he had concern about what Donald Trump had in store for him.

Pence more than didn’t want to be seen leaving. He was well aware of the trump traitors’ plans and well aware that he had refused to participate in them. He didn’t want to leave because he knew they would not bring him back and then simply stick whoever they could get up there in front of congress to pretend to be in charge and then not accept the electoral college vote.

Trump wasn’t going to kill him. Just steamroll him into irrelevance in his absence while the traitors tossed our government aside.

But sure, keep voting Republican because your effing taxes will be lower and people can more easily get guns. Priorities!
6-24-22, 10:35am
LDAHL

Quote:

Originally Posted by frugal-one

[/B]

Haven't you seen the protests all over the country? Sheesh.

One frantic zealot gets more coverage than thousands of normals.
6-24-22, 11:41am
iris lilies

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp1

Pence more than didn’t want to be seen leaving. He was well aware of the trump traitors’ plans and well aware that he had refused to participate in them. He didn’t want to leave because he knew they would not bring him back and then simply stick whoever they could get up there in front of congress to pretend to be in charge and then not accept the electoral college vote.

Trump wasn’t going to kill him. Just steamroll him into irrelevance in his absence while the traitors tossed our government aside.

But sure, keep voting Republican because your effing taxes will be lower and people can more easily get guns. Priorities!

Perhaps, I don’t know what was in Mike Pence’s brain as you apparently do. He probably had several ideas about why he didn’t wish to leave. It’s just good that he did not leave.
6-24-22, 1:21pm
gimmethesimplelife

Voting Republican likely will lead to a brain drain for the US as talented young people take their skills and energy to better countries - for a young professional now, would not remaining in the US tarnish their brand?

Rob
6-24-22, 1:41pm
bae

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife

Voting Republican likely will lead to a brain drain for the US as talented young people take their skills and energy to better countries - for a young professional now, would not remaining in the US tarnish their brand?

Rob

My daughter is finishing up her Ph.D. this month at Cambridge. She will almost certainly not be returning to the USA. I may go join her at some point once my elderly parents pass away. I've already "packed my two bags" in the sense that I have housing and assets secured over there.
6-24-22, 3:01pm
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by bae

My daughter is finishing up her Ph.D. this month at Cambridge. She will almost certainly not be returning to the USA. I may go join her at some point once my elderly parents pass away. I've already "packed my two bags" in the sense that I have housing and assets secured over there.

I counsel the young people I know to be prepared to emigrate as our rights continue to erode, but to continue to vote in the meantime.
6-24-22, 3:19pm
frugal-one

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDAHL

One frantic zealot gets more coverage than thousands of normals.

What planet are you from?
6-24-22, 4:05pm
gimmethesimplelife

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneV2.0

I counsel the young people I know to be prepared to emigrate as our rights continue to erode, but to continue to vote in the meantime.

Thank You, Jane. Rob
6-24-22, 4:29pm
JaneV2.0

Quote:

Originally Posted by frugal-one

What planet are you from?

The planet that's never heard of the First Amendment, apparently.

He makes me think of the Simpson's Superintendent Chalmers' observation "Good lord, the rod up that man's butt must have a rod up its butt."
6-24-22, 4:39pm
frugal-one

Disgusting turn of events... time to protest! I have never protested in my life but the TIME HAS COME!

https://apnews.com/article/abortion-...fa71f6e7a4d19d
6-24-22, 4:49pm
gimmethesimplelife

Quote:

Originally Posted by frugal-one

Disgusting turn of events... time to protest! I have never protested in my life but the TIME HAS COME!

https://apnews.com/article/abortion-...fa71f6e7a4d19d

Good for you!!! Rob
6-24-22, 5:32pm
frugal-one

Not good for me Rob! Disgusted by these fascist republicans and lying bastards put in the supreme court by trump. Such strong language has never been uttered from my mouth. If an old biddy like me feels this way, imagine what the streets are going to be like in the days to come?

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