Proud of our UK NHS, flaws and all!
The idea of not having universal healthcare as a right would frighten me to death!
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Proud of our UK NHS, flaws and all!
The idea of not having universal healthcare as a right would frighten me to death!
I've been frightened by this in the US for years! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by IshbelRobertson
That's interesting, where is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
I am not going to give you my address, but you can read this -Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lily
http://www.insureme.com/health-insur...e-for-teachers
"Now posing a dramatic and serious challenge for school districts across the country, health insurance is no longer a guaranteed financial benefit for teachers."
The teachers in our district gave up health insurance years ago in exchange for higher wages, before health insurance rates skyrocketed.
Address? General vicinity, especially city was all I was interested in, or even the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
But never mind, Walter White and his cronies DO have health insurance package and a tidy one if I am to believe the website tool of the Albuquerque schools:
http://www.aps.edu/human-resources/benefits
That said, I lived in New Mexico and know how poor that state is, and it's likely that if any school districts are without health insurance, some of those would be in NM. Albuquerque would be one of the richer districts in the state.
Whether Walter White had or should have had insurance or not, it doesn't change the fact that millions of Americans are without any health insurance at all. The New York Times reported this number as 48 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
That is more uninsured in the U.S. than the entire population of Canada (48 million vs 35 million).
This has for years really gotten under my skin. Given that my mindset is more about the collective good of society, how do I forgive America for this? I don't know, I've never found a way to do so. I'm hoping that ObamaCare will be the vehicle that lets me drop this.....RobQuote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
Just out of curiosity Rob, what have you done all those years to provide for your own services other than to vote for whoever you thought would provide them for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
If you cannot forgive America for not providing everything you want, how should America feel about your refusal to do the same?
As I have posted time and time again, I see access to health care as a basic human right. Every other country in the developed world provides this and at a lower cost than our system in the US. What I have problems forgiving is that human life in the US has not been worth access to health care for so many - there is no structure, single payer, socialized, universal, whatever you want to call it - to provide this in the US. Until ObamaCare came along - and now we have a government shutdown as some folks in DC don't believe human life is worth access to health care. How does a thinking person that has comparison shopped their US citizenship against other countries citizenship forgive such a basic glaring lack? I have yet to ever run across anyone who could answer this question. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
So when 48 million people don't have health insurance, more people than the entire population of Canada, most of them working low income families, the sole reason as you see it is a lack of personal responsibility for all 48 million? Even though the majority do work, many are children, and one third don't have insurance because they lost their job?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
The answer is to just tell all 48 million to take more personal responsibility, and the problem would be solved? Does that mean the U.S. shouldn't have any waiters, fast food workers, farm workers or retail store workers because most of those jobs do not come with health insurance?
Alan, if you lost your job tomorrow would you have health insurance?
Very valid questions and points! RobQuote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
No, I was asking Rob specifically why he doesn't take personal responsibility for his desired services. He's told us hundreds of times how America doesn't work for him, I'm simply wondering if he feels a responsibility to work for America.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
He's never given me any indication that his life circumstances are any different than mine or virtually everyone else I know, with all of us being able to care for ourselves and our families without suffering such severe disappointment with the rest of the country for not doing it for us.
Over the last 40 years I've done whatever it took to care for myself and my family and as a result have not lacked health coverage for a single day. If I lost my job tomorrow, I don't see that changing.Quote:
Alan, if you lost your job tomorrow would you have health insurance?
Just curious Alan, have you priced an insurance policy pre-ObamaCare lately? Say you're one of the millions who have once held a decent paying job with benefits and now have to settle for nine dollars an hour with no benefits - you are supposed to afford health insurance how? I'm all ears as to your personal responsibility mantra works under these conditions.......Seems to me that under these conditions the most personally responsible thing you could do is to flee to a better country with socialized medicine and give up on the US altogether. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by Alan
To me, that seems less like personal responsibility and more like opportunism. We're probably just defining things differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I guess, to your point, if you're determined to transfer the cost of your services to someone else, another country might be a reasonable starting point, so, carry on.
So without the ACA if you were unemployed and it took you a year to find a job, where would you get insurance from for that year and how much would it cost? Lets say your special needs grandson was living with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
As a family, we have spent the vast majority of those 40 years with double coverage. Not being a seer, I can't give you specific answers to your what if's, I can only say that if our history is any indicator of our future, I'll be fine. Not because the government will be my savior, but because we've gotten into the habit of taking care of ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
You don't have to be a seer. If you lost your job and your grandson was living with you, you wouldn't get family coverage for private pay because of pre-existing conditions. You could go on COBRA for 18 months, but it might cost you $1K to over $2 a month if you are 40+ and have a family. That is $12 - 24K for premiums alone for a year. Could you pay that easily?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Oops then you get into a car accident or develop cancer and can't work. You premiums are now $12 - $24K, you have a $10K out of pocket costs per year and your COBRA is running out. Now what? Time to take personal responsibility! Remember no running to the government for help.
Do you have some guarantee from God that nothing like this will ever happen to you or someone you care about?
I assume also you will be turning down your Medicare and SS benefits when you turn 65 because you don't want other taxpayers funding your retirement or health care in your old age.
Also you never answered my question on the 48 million in the U.S. without health care. Should we continue to let them all die of treatable diseases because they are low income? Should we do away with all the waiters, fast food workers, retail clerks and farm workers in the U.S. because they have jobs that don't have insurance? What is your solution?
Is lack of personal responsibility root the issue for all 48 million? Let's leave Rob out of this and just address the other 47,999,999 people in the U.S. without health insurance.
well if you can't pay that easily you're up a creek anyway, because that's what rent costs every month. When I was unemployed health insurance was around $400 a month, of course rent continued to be a bit over $1000 a month. Now I could see that the problem is paying it AND rent, but rent would continue to be a larger concern for me.Quote:
You don't have to be a seer. If you lost your job and your grandson was living with you, you wouldn't get family coverage for private pay because of pre-existing conditions. You could go on COBRA for 18 months, but it might cost you $1K to over $2 a month if you are 40+ and have a family. That is $12 - 24K for premiums alone for a year. Could you pay that easily?
Of course, there are many, many reasons 48 million people don't have health insurance. Personal responsibility, or lack thereof, does come into play for a certain percentage of those. Isn't that the sole reason for the individual mandate in the ACA? To force people to do what they should have been doing all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
Your assumption would be incorrect. I, along with my various employers, have diligently relinquished (through threat of force) a percentage of my compensation for over 40 years to ensure that I may possibly receive a stipend in my declining years. If I had been allowed a choice in the matter, I'm pretty sure I would have kept the money and came out way ahead through diligent investment and planning. Without that choice, I'll take the stipend if it's available. I say that I believe I'd come out way ahead because I've actually done quite well over the long term using portions of my compensation that the government allowed me to keep to fund our post employment life.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
It hasn't been easy over the years, but in the end, assuming responsibility for yourself is so much more rewarding.
Many people can't get insurance now. It is unaffordable or they have pre-existing conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Are you in favor of laws that allow people with pre-existing conditions be allowed to purchase affordable insurance?
Sure, but the entire concept of insurance involves assigning a cost to risk. The higher the risk, the higher the cost, so it's the definition of affordable that would come into play. Is there a formula for that which can be applied across the board without assigning the cost to others who may not be able to comfortably pay it?Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
Social Security and Medicare are not one for one benefits. They are tax payer funded. You may get more or less back than what you put in. If you had a $1M medical bill, would you turn down your Medicare benefits because you wouldn't want to take money away from other tax payers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Almost no one except the very wealthy without employer subsidized health insurance can comfortably pay for it now. Health insurance rates have been sky rocketing in the U.S. for years prior to the ACA.
Also see -
No widespread increase in cost of individual health insurance policies under the ACA
This is what Home Depo said was going to happen to their full time employees - significant cost increases for their share of medical insurance. The 20,000 p/t workers will transistion to Obamacare. Walgreens will cut ALL medical insurance to All it employees and transition them to Obamacare. However they will give their f/t employees an aditional pre-tax amount to help pay for that. I believe that Alan said this is what will be happening the company he works for - dropping their good healthcare plan and transistioning employees to Obamacare with a monthly cash benefit amount (before taxes) to help pay for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
From Rueters news: "Home Depot employs about 340,000 people and will continue to offer healthcare benefits to full-time employees, who will be paying more for that coverage next year due to higher healthcare costs", Holmes (spokesman for Home Depo) said.
Apparently 120 other large companoies are doing the same - sometimes for full time employees also.
Most of those countries have a socialist twist to their economy and can control and regulate how much a private company can charge and how they do business. We don't do that here (and shouldn't imo).Quote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
I'd rather see an expanded version of a medicare-type of system for everyone. Flat taxes on everyone's income (like they currently have to pay for medicare for employed people), flat rate "affordable" monthly premiums that are not dependant on income or assets (like they currently have for medicare reciepients - lower income/asset people can be subsidied on a sliding scale), have HMO type cost shares with co-payments for services (like most medicare programs have) or do a PPO system with a percent of treatment payed for by the patient (like all medicare systems have now - again, low income/low asset people can get subsidized on a sliding scale), the govmint can act as a noin-profit insurance provider and contract out to medical facilities and Drs for care (like they currently do for medicare, medicaid, military Tricare and Champus, etc..), and private insurers can offer suplimental insurance or even complete alternative coverage (like medicare advantage programs currently do), and compete with government for a share of the health insurance business.
This will probably keep costs low like in other countries since people will have an option to go back to straight medicare-type system rather then pay ever increasing costs by non- government-contractor private insurers. And private insurers, knowing this, will be more likely to keep costs low. Yet the private insurers will still remain free to do business with minimal government interference or regulations on who and what they take and charge for services. You can eliminate the redundant systems like medicare, medicaid, the VA system, etc... That is what other countries do and that can keep costs alot lower for everyone because you are no longer holding people hostage with no choice but to accept the exorbitant price increases and all other bad things private insurers do. "Spartanacare?" - a free death panel for all :-)!
I read somewhere "official" like somewhere in the "act" itself that if you voluntarily quit your job that has employer paid for insurance you can not go on Obamacare. If you are already unemployed or will be laid off you can. I also heard this on a radio show about the ACA. Don't know if that's true or not though. I also read something about how you can only sign up during the open enrollment period (which is until April 2014 I believe) and unless you life circumstances change - like a non-voluntary job loss - then you can't enroll until next open enrollment. I'll see if I can find out more (limited internet time for this Luddite ya know :-)!). I did download the Calif application and explanation out of curisoity after reading the OPs (Frugalone's) post here. So maybe something is written about it there. After reading it I can see how it is both very simple and very confusing for many people. Even myself, who would only qualify for medicaid and not the subsidies, got a bit confused. The plans don't look very good either. I had better coverage for a lot less with my barebones Blue Cross plan (that I have now dropped!).Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
Funny you mention this. I saw a tv show the other night that was about how employers are giving their employees the option for out-of-country medical care and operations rather than having them use their employer paid for medical insurance. This saved the employee several thousand in co-pays (they usually had no out-of-pocket costs), and saved the company increases in it's medical insurances plans, and the employers even gave the employees a $2500 bonus for using out-of-country medical services. The ones they showed had surguries in Costa Rica. Probably a new and growing trend amost employers.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
By "those countries", you mean the ones with some form of universal care, which refers to almost all of the countries in the developed world other than the U.S.?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartana
How does it work in Mexico, since you bring that up quite a lot? Does the government control the cost or do they just stay out of it. I really don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
It seams that the more the US government gets involved with a program the more things cost. Look at the cost of college.
Do you mean if you outsource your medical to Mexico for affordable access, or if you are a Mexican in the system? There a differences between these two scenarios, though I have once went to a Mexican free clinic - admittedly in Baja Norte which is one of the more prosperous states - and was very impressed. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by dmc
I haven't figured out where these countries with socialized medicine are that take in those who are fleeing there for the sole purpose of partaking of the socialized medicine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Those countries tend to be very hard to get into. You've got to pretty much prove that you will not be a drain on their social services.
But everyone, good luck with that. If you find the way, let me know. I'd love to live in Yorkshire Eng or Vancouver Canada.
Hard to get into and then they kick out people who are obviously not a drain on their social services (Zoebird is coming back to us). And then if you get in, talk to people about how easy it is to get hired as an American in say Canada, it's not, even if you've got a professional skillset and it's a pretty good one.
Ever talked to people who were born in and have left those countries and don't want back? I have. Because America is so perfect and everything? No, they don't believe that, and they'd usually like a better social safety net in the U.S. - socialized medicine, more vacation, etc. but they see other things here, get used to it, etc. (plus I'm told a not insignificant factor is that the competition for professional jobs is worse some places than here - like everything else easier to deal with if you never get out of the habit of dealing with it).
Now if one wants to move to Latin America that they probably can do and there's nothing wrong with it, though I doubt it's for everyone.
Then again, you might be less likely to have talked to the people who did move back because they aren't here anymore to talk to. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
The Atlantic has an interesting article on Why So Many Americans are Leaving the U.S. here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...roblem/309410/
Health care costs in the U.S. per capita are $8,232 vs $965 in Mexico, for fairly comparable average life expectancies.
I wasn't drawing a statistical conclusion*. But it is true, I don't know if I could easily get hired elsewhere, which is maybe the second most important thing (second to the people I care about here). Politics is further down than those.Quote:
Then again, you might be less likely to have talked to the people who did move back because they aren't here anymore to talk to.
* I was really just making the point that, contrary to popular belief, not everyone hates living here
There are Americans leaving now for a wide variety of reasons - some due to the cost of living, stagnant wages, or my favorite - terror of American health care. I'm sure there are many other valid reasons. It is actually getting harder to legally get into a few South American countries I favor due to so many Americans with money and a great skill set trying to get in. Not something you are going to hear often on the US media but true nonetheless. If I had kids I'd sure be telling them it might be wisest to pack up and run.....RobQuote:
Originally Posted by try2bfrugal
There are also Americans, mostly younger, fleeing to Asia now as there is work for them there and health care is not a nightmare there in most of these countries. I have thought about this myself but the pace of life there and the overall dedication of life to the concept of work don't work for me. But for those who this works for that flee to Asia, more power to them, at least they are getting out of healthcare nightmares and debt per capita nightmares - with the exception of Japan.
I'm thinking much more of South America - Chile and Uruguay especially strike me as interesting, especially Uruguay. There have been some interesting legal decisions in Uruguay lately - legal adoptions by gay parents, legal gay marriage, and legal marijuana (I don't partake but I think this US war on drugs is totally asinine). Rob Both have socialized medicine and in Uruguay it's only 20 years of work until you qualify for a pension - this is set in place as in Uruguay the mentality is that work is an evil necessity, why prolong it and let life pass you by? Truly my kind of thinking.....Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
I would not be leaving just due health care, I have other issues too that I don't really go into here as health care for me is the biggie - knowing 24/7 how little human life is valued in the US due to the lack of accessible health care for all really does not inspire much confidence or faith in the citizenship. Which I have posted on ad nauseum by now. But I do have other reasons - another of which would be the American tendency to put work over everything else, and to have far too busy lives and take pride in this, or at least wear it as a badge of honor. I know not everybody here does this, some of us here don't for example and that's great. I'm talking about society as a whole. Also the American tendency to think in terms of "me" over "we" - I'll never get used to that and all the toxicity I see that causing. I have yet more reasons but these are the biggies. RobQuote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
While I'm not interested in the warm weather countries south of the border (can't grow anything that I want to grow there! ) I wonder what the entry requirements are for citizenship to grab those social programs?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife
I do really understand and admire a lifestyle that isn't devoted to 40+ hours of work for The Man, but I do not characterize the America I know as being that. You (the generic you) pick and choose your friends, your community, your society. If that's all that you experience, I say: find new friends, get the h*ll out of Dodge and move to another Dodge in another state. Personally, I find Phoenix to be one of the most ridiculous places on the planet-- conceptually. It's a megatropolis in the middle of the freakin' dessert. What a plastic, artificial place. But then, I love cities so it's not as though I am Miss Nature BackToTheWoods. I love real cities, old cities, the older the better and I have (illogical!) disdain for the new.
Am losing my point here except to say: The U.S. offers so much, how myoptic it is to generalize. I urge everyone to strike out and find "Your place" and "Your people." I've found it here in my city for 25 years, but I'm having a yen for something else. I'm very drawn to New Hampshire and the Libertarian movement there, that old Yankee Do It Yourself mindset, and the fascinating old houses and just the OLDNESS of the places. But am not drawn to more winter and shorter growing season.
Yet the perfect growing season, western Oregon would put me in with too many "progressive" citizens and I'd have to live in a 1960's ranch because I don't think there are any houses older than that (haha, a bit of a generalization.)
We are so fortunate in this country to have freedom of movement. Oh wait, I forgot, this thread is about How Bad Is America. Sometimes I can't keep on message.