Much of Asia is doing well because they're used to wearing masks during times of epidemic.
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Much of Asia is doing well because they're used to wearing masks during times of epidemic.
If we live with it for years it will be with a depressed economy, because noone needs to go to an indoor sit down restaurant, a bar (though some 20 somethings will do it, and well alcoholics of all ages, but that's it), live entertainment, movie theaters, cruises, airlines most of the time etc.. I don't need any of this and would be foolish to do it. I don't even need to try on clothes and even that spending is bound to be down. And frankly I can go forever without dental cleanings too. Oh I drove my 80 something mom to dental *surgery* she needed, but there is a difference between needed surgery and stuff like cleanings and xrays one can easily go without. Old people can't stay home entirely either, and neither should they, it would be completely fricken ridiculous - I don't mean from all this unnecessary fluff that I've just listed, but actual life must go on.
I suppose it is de-growth, this new covid austerity where spending money is hardly worth the risk, not a particularly well thought out de-growth, but noone is thinking anything out at all.
But they still have cases. It's not like masks eliminate covid. Even if masks could prevent all spread, and we all got our nutrients from IVs instead of opening our mouths to eat, it would be hard to keep masks on everyone. Most places exempt those under age 2, some places up to age 10. My mother visited a friend of hers outdoors at a nursing home the other day. The woman is in her second childhood at times, and clawing to get the mask off her face. Other times she is more lucid/compliant. Being masked is no way to live. It's awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
FFS
For all your whining about masks, I have yet to see where you have taken a stand on your beliefs and stopped wearing one. Go ahead - stop wearing a mask and be happier than you apparently are now. Take the risk AND take the responsibility for anyone you may infect. Wearing a mask CAN help keep you living, while catching covid and being sick and/or dying is what is truly awful. But, please, live what you are espousing and stop wearing your mask and I hope that makes you happy for the time you have left in life, because your anti-mask posts truly reflect that you are totally unhappy with your life right now where masking is concerned. I truly hope you can come to terms with this soon, as the virus is NOT going away and you seem truly miserable with regards to masking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
Dying of a disease whose spread is significantly limited by wearing a damn mask really isn’t much of a way to live either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
OMG, the math/statistics/analysis being discussed here are part of the standard SEVENTH grade curriculum that I’m facilitating with home-schooled students... unbelievable.
The most basic equation, as pointed out by some researchers, is masks = complacency about social distancing. So maybe first grade math.
Here is an article on this:
https://www.mychamplainvalley.com/ne...ndates-needed/
"People who wear masks may be more likely to contract Covid-19...."
And this article debunks the idea that it was mask wearing that controlled the spread of covid in Asia:
https://slate.com/technology/2020/04...ks-debate.html
The author also makes the excellent point that people who can stay home should, have things delivered. Yet in these forums multip!e individuals have said you can't expect high risk groups like the elderly to stay home because they will get bored. I guess they think "dying of boredom" is more fatal than dying of covid. More fuzzy math.
An example of the current flawed mindset is my mother who is 79 with various medical conditions. She heard a friend of hers in her eighties was recently moved to a nursing home. She called a half dozen people determined to find out which facility and eventually succeeded. She went to visit her and said, "We were wearing masks". They were also outdoors, but had to go indoors to get to the outdoor patio. I would be worried I would kill my friend. I would not go but would talk to her on the phone.
I think the articles show that masks aren't useless, but they are part of a multi-pronged approach that includes distancing and hygiene. We should be doing all three. Ignoring any one of these measures will increase our vulnerability.
I don't doubt that wearing a mask can offer a false sense of security and there has to be additional measures. I think that is the basic point of the articles, but I'd point out that the Slate article is dated April 2020. We've learned a lot since then, enough to say the article is partially obsolete. but point taken that some of the successes in Asia were also due to other factors as well as masks. The other link seems to be counter to your argument. You took a short statement out of the context of the article. I can't see in any of your posts that seem to obsess with not wearing a mask hold any water. Last I have to say on the subject. From the first link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yppej
“Messaging that people need to wear a mask is essential, but insufficient,” she said. “It should go hand in hand with education that masks don’t give you a free pass to see as many people as you want. You still need to strictly limit your contacts.”
I'm more than happy to have goods delivered, but if I were to go out I'd be masked and distant. I'm not even close to being "bored to death" yet, though I miss my favorite discount grocer. I'll be glad when this is all over (if ever), but I'm good for the foreseeable future.
This came through in my email via MedPage.. I didn't know about Great Barrington v John Snow proposals for dealing with the balance of infection risk v economic impact risk. It's an interesting opinion piece. Apparently there are two petitions supporting each approach and the op ed author is arguing that this is not an issue that should be put to a vote.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/v...ly_News_Update
Jeppy I wonder what you have to say about the following anecdotal observation:
In my immediate neighborhood I see many good Doobies out exercising around our park. Many of them wear masks while walking their dogs, jogging, walking around the park which is a common 1 mile track.
Also while out and about and doing my 1 mile track, I see many discarded face masks on the ground. Yesterday I counted four. Why is it that the good Doobies are unable to use a trash receptacle. Notice, no question mark at the end of that last sentence because yes, it’s a statement that I think they’re little pigs.
Under normal circumstances, in non-Covid times, I would bend over and pick up those four masks and carry them to the trash bin. But not now of course, I’m not gonna trust touching the discarded masks of the goody two shoes who are wearing them while outside. What pigs they are.
IL, it’s like people that don’t pick up their dog poop. How can people be so entitled? Ugh!
that's your interpretation, that it's about boredom, although all i can recall is you whining about not being able to buy clothing and shoes during lockdown.Quote:
The author also makes the excellent point that people who can stay home should, have things delivered. Yet in these forums multip!e individuals have said you can't expect high risk groups like the elderly to stay home because they will get bored. I guess they think "dying of boredom" is more fatal than dying of covid. More fuzzy math.
It's about basic human needs. That old people have needs to socialize too. And sometimes if the dentist thinks they may have a tumor to get dental surgery, mom got the surgery but it was cultured and wasn't a tumor. I wanted to lock my mom up early on but months later I'm glad I didn't. California is doing better than most states right now, we did not lift all measures of course, some stuff is still closed. Mom mostly just goes to the bank and the store, it's not some exciting life. She thanks me and bf profusely for visiting (outdoors). If she dies of it, well living under a rock permanently (this is not a whine about complying with short term health measures or bars and restaurants being closed - that is small sacrifices, but rather older people having to sacrifice EVERYTHING) can't be done.
Noone can name any country on earth that protected older people while having widespread spread (certainly not Sweden), it doesn't even work, not on a social level, sure a given individual might be able to hide. But as policy - IT DOESN'T WORK. So I suspect, it's just a form of ageism, doesn't work, but you can hate the elderly for being human.
Stuff could be delivered. Yea that only makes sense if the risk of the person doing one's shopping are less than one's own risk. If one is 80 they probably are, it's certainly understandable, but otherwise even if one has a young person delivering, young people can have long lists of preexisting conditions and social risk factors too or live with older people who do as well.
I read that 40% of those in the USA have some sort of designation that places them in the high risk category. It’s not just the old folks.
Well, COVID is getting very close to home. The village where I live has 2 utility workers and the village clerk testing positive. The village office is 3 blocks from my home. I know others who have had COVID and one who was on a ventilator. Glad my freezer is full!
And some unfortunates have had fatal or long-lasting consequences with no apparent risk factors at all. It's like some grotesque game of Russian roulette.
FWIW, I really doubt that wearing masks causes complacency. A mask is just uncomfortable and annoying enough to make the wearer very aware if they have it on or not.
Of course, I’m only out and about a couple of times a week now, once for grocery shopping for myself and 2 neighbors, and once to run another neighbor to her dr appointments, and I run to the hardware store for a myriad of people while I wait for her. Most of the people who are also out likely fall into these same categories and I’m a boomer and there are a whole lot of us. Anyway, what I observe is people being careful to wear a mask in the vicinity of other people. Again, it may well be that generation of respect thing, but that’s what I see. Even at the Star$$$ drive thru, as they approach the window, the mask goes on.
Incidentally, here in California, most of the “old people” who have died of C19 were in congregate care facilities. Since they’ve gotten those under control, the most new cases, including deaths, are in the 20-40 yr old range. But even those are significantly down here now. It’s pretty simple really, wear a mask, save a life- might be your own!
Like mschrisgo says I don’t think I’m more complacent wearing a mask. If anything it’s a constant reminder of what’s going on.
A coworker sent out an annoyed email because someone left a used mask on his desk. I also see them in parking lots. My state has a mask mandate so our discarders may not be health conscious "good doobies" but people wearing masks under fear of being fined. I would not want to touch these masks either. They join dog poop and heroin needles in a nasty trio.Quote:
Originally Posted by iris lilies
36.5% of American adults are obese, so it doesn't take a lot of other conditions to get to 40%. And 7 months into the pandemic and not a peep from our public health officials about losing weight to fight the virus's lethality. You can lose a significant amount of weight in 7 months. But the food industry benefits from the current system, and selling treatments benefits the pharmaceutical industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammy
An interesting read. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
what would be the point? Though some people manage to lose weight through this or that diet or exercise or whatever of course, there is no successful intervention that works on a large scale. Diets don't work long term on average, weight loss programs don't work long term on average.Quote:
36.5% of American adults are obese, so it doesn't take a lot of other conditions to get to 40%. And 7 months into the pandemic and not a peep from our public health officials about losing weight to fight the virus's lethality. You can lose a significant amount of weight in 7 months.
It's just an excuse to hate on overweight people. When we aren't hating on people who have committed the great crime (through not fault of their own) of having to many birthdays!
I wish there were treatments, other than Remdesevir which is a profit center but doesn't increase survival, and a decades old steroid that does increase survival but seems not likely to be a profit center, there aren't. Oh there are treatments given to Trump even if he's both old and fat and noone's definition of healthy, and refuses masks, and holds covid spreading rallies, but we can't get those. An ounce of cure is worth a pound of prevention but only if you are the President.
You took the words right out of my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore
If losing weight were even close to being easy, there would be few fat people.
Maybe we shouldn't encourage people to stop smoking either. After all quitting is hard. No one should have to do anything hard. Instead when they make bad decisions the government, other ratepayers in their insurance plan, or their employer who provides health insurance can pick up the tab for their lung cancer, emphysema, heart disease, or even covid. Vaping dramatically increases covid risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
True. 95% of those lose weight gain it back within about a year, and often with a few additional pounds.
Maybe we should shut down drug rehab programs. Do you know how many people relapse? Most of them relapse at some point. Lots of them relapse again and again. Why should people try to do something hard like quit? That doesn't fit in with our entitlement society.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneV2.0
It’s actually shown that a focus on weight loss causes people to gain weight. It’s counterproductive.
This defeatist mindset is why obesity gets worse every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammy
I personally think the ladder is against the wrong wall. Read Food Fix by Dr. Mark Hyman.
"Dr. Hyman deftly describes the web of destruction caused by our modern food system -- and how to reverse the tide and save our health and planet. His most important book to date."
―Dariush Mozaffarian, MD, DrPH, Friedman School of Nutrition Science & Policy, Tufts University
I think what happens is that people lose weight by dieting rather than changing their lifestyle and lifelong eating habits. It may be hard to diet, but it's harder to give up some of the foods we like forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammy
The Russian agitprop bots are out in force today I see.
I’ve read whole books about it - but don’t have the energy to expound further. There is science behind what I’ve said.
People can and do lose significant amounts of weight and keep it off, sometimes assisted by bariatric surgery.
From today's news:
42% of US covid deaths are in nursing homes
Young people are at such a low risk that a British pharmaceutical company is seeking volunteers under the age of 30 to be deliberately infected with the virus so the efficacy of vaccines can be tested on them (but hey, what do the scientists making vaccines know? Some anecdote about a young person dying of covid is more important say the chattering classes)
Again with the old people don’t matter argument. Geez.
I, too, feel that the "it's just old people" argument is a shame. These "dispensable" old people have children and grandchildren who can't even say goodbye to them in person. One of my dear friends died of COVID, but he would have died soon enough anyway so I guess it's OK.
"If they would rather die, let them do it and reduce the surplus population." Charles Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"
Jeppy, I'm surprised at you, because you don't seem to me to be a callous person.
I do not devalue the lives of older people. But I think rather than lock everyone down the government should give people the ability to assess their own risks and act accordingly. These risks vary greatly, with age being a major factor in the difference. Fortunately most older people are retired and can stay home. Goods should be brought to them as need be. I am not in a high risk group and am working in an essential industry. I am risking my health, but the risk is low, and I am happy to do my part. I think older individuals who cannot afford to retire should be eligible for enhanced unemployment for the duration of the pandemic.
That theory loses its merit when one considers large number of inter-generational households, and large number of grandparents that help with childcare for the grandchildren.