Another school shooting, multiple fatalities

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Originally Posted by razz

May I add a query to WS's question. By Alan's post I understand that it is recognized that the employer is deciding rights and privileges of its employees that impact the common good. Has industry then been assigned decision=making governing the common good or should it be'government by the people for the people'? BTW, I am not specifying any level of gov't - municipal, state or federal.

By the response of the companies who are withdrawing their support of the NRA, is there an indication that industry is making the decision and advising the NRA to go back to its roots of concern for the common good of responsible oversight of gun use?

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It's not that an employer is deciding rights and privileges, it's more an expectation that their rights and privileges take precedence on their property, much like if you invite a visitor into your home but advise them that you don't allow smoking inside your residence, leaving them free to either respect your rules or not visit.

I think the companies severing their ties with the NRA are simply capitalizing on the media's fairly successful demonization of that institution. As a nation we seem to have moved past the stage where protecting individual rights while promoting safety are considered admirable attributes.

Alan, are you saying that school districts should be able to establish a right and privilege to have an armed presence in their buildings filled by the employees of the district if that’s what they want? If so, then parents not in favor of that should be able to chose a district that does not have an armed militia doubling as teachers. Isn’t there a problem with comparing school property to business property? Taxpayers are not free to withhold their investment in schools. If a person doesn’t like a businesses activities, they can take their business elsewhere or cash out their investment or terminate their relationship.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Bullet proof body blanket for elementary school children. I’m not kidding. What?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1823308

Forget school supplies, get your kids a bullet proof vest.

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It would be nice if we had enough money to pay for all the school supplies and good wages for teachers, I really don't understand how we have districts going to 4 day weeks and teachers having second jobs but we are interested in bullet proof vests and blankets. Do people just not have any idea that schools struggle?

The ugly side of capitalism is that one should never let pass an opportunity to use fear to gin up sales. Imagine you are sending your kid off to school. “Don’t forget you lunch, Mary. And your homework. Oh yeah....your bullet proof blanket!”

That's where we would be homeschooling. We did it before when school got unbearable for one of my kids. Bullet proof blanket--unbearable.

I'm curious if there are any statistics on the proportion of these incidents occurring at private vs. public schools. I could be wrong, but I can't recall of any recent mass shootings at non-public institutions. If that is the case, is there some cultural or structural reason for it? Are parents more willing to make the financial sacrifice involved also watching their kids more closely? Do they recruit a different type of staff? Do they simply exclude the more psychologically damaged students? Are there religious or philosophical values being transmitted that mitigate against such incidents? Are private school families less likely to have easy access to firearms?

People make the choice to send their children to private schools for diverse reasons, but if there are differences that help mitigate against these violent acts, perhaps they could be studied and replicated.

LDAHL, the research on gun violence was banned many years ago. One of the petitions I signed was to change that law. I don't even know what to say about the current law, we have many ideas and we keep passing them around however without some attempt at research I am not sure what we can do except 'thoughts and prayers'. So you could be in trouble for trying to find out.

Just WTF!!

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Originally Posted by Zoe Girl

LDAHL, the research on gun violence was banned many years ago. One of the petitions I signed was to change that law. I don't even know what to say about the current law, we have many ideas and we keep passing them around however without some attempt at research I am not sure what we can do except 'thoughts and prayers'. So you could be in trouble for trying to find out.

Just WTF!!

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Research isn’t “banned”. The feds aren’t funding it. You won’t “be in trouble” for conducting studies funded by other sources. The FBI won’t swoop down on you for researching why there are fewer massacres at Saint Addlepate’s Parish School or Privilege Preparatory Academy.

So maybe you won't be swooped in on, however the Dickey amendment is still current

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)

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Originally Posted by Zoe Girl

So maybe you won't be swooped in on, however the Dickey amendment is still current

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)

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Congress not providing CDC with money to research guns is a far cry from "banning research". Not everything needs to happen by government fiat.

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Originally Posted by LDAHL

Congress not providing CDC with money to research guns is a far cry from "banning research". Not everything needs to happen by government fiat.

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Only when you look to Nanny to solve all of your problems, a sad place to be.

It seems to me that the CDC is probably not fulfilling its government mandate to promote the public welfare and health when it does not do any research into the causes and contributing factors of gun violence as well as the various factors that could be known and assimilated into a national attempt at curbing gun violence.

The stripping of several million dollars from the budget of the CDC for this purpose and the failure of the federal government to encourage more than just 18 states to furnish accurate statistics on homicides, suicide and accidental gun deaths is directly related to the influence the NRA and similar lobbyist groups have on politicians who want to keep their job over actually doing something proactive to stop the deaths of Americans by gun violence.

Its a direct case of having a tool available to address our mass murder and everyday murder problems but leaving it shelved out of political expediency. It basically sucks.

I suppose the counter argument might be that a government that was instituted to protect a citizens rights should not fund study's designed to justify the diminishment or cancellation of one or more of those rights.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I suppose the counter argument might be that a government that was instituted to protect a citizens rights should not fund study's designed to justify the diminishment or cancellation of one or more of those rights.

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Wouldn’t that be assuming a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade to use an arm of the government to push an addenda rather than honest research guiding recommendations? Well duh?

If we are going to repeal federal and state laws establishing gun free zones.....shouldn’t we provide the teachers with the real tools to take on an attacker? Expecting a teacher to run toward the threat armed with only a concealed carry pistol would ensure he was terribly outgunned. Let’s provide them with a select fire pistol capable of automatic fire and burst fire and access to flash bang grenades to disorient an attacker. Perhaps a ballistic shield in the corner of the room with which he can protect himself and bullet proof blankets for the kids to hide under. That’s a start.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Wouldn’t that be assuming a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade to use an arm of the government to push an addenda rather than honest research guiding recommendations? Well duh?

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The Dickey Amendment was introduced during the Clinton Administration during an era where President Clinton was quoted saying things like "Only the police should have handguns" and "We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary citizens". I don't think a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade is much of a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Alan

The Dickey Amendment was introduced during the Clinton Administration during an era where President Clinton was quoted saying things like "Only the police should have handguns" and "We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary citizens". I don't think a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade is much of a stretch.

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Its been 17 years since Clinton served his last day as President. Do you think the coast is clear yet?

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Its been 17 years since Clinton served his last day as President. Do you think the coast is clear yet?

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Nope

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Originally Posted by Alan

Nope

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Ah, now we get to the crux of the problem.....nobody can be trusted!

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Ah, now we get to the crux of the problem.....nobody can be trusted!

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Sure you can, when anyone tells you they'd like to diminish one or more of your rights, I trust them to follow though by any means at their disposal.

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Originally Posted by Alan

Sure you can, when anyone tells you they'd like to diminish one or more of your rights, I trust them to follow though by any means at their disposal.

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does legal abortion count? Or only rights you agree with.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

does legal abortion count? Or only rights you agree with.

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I hate it when abortion comes up since the fetus is never considered to be a person. Plus, the "right" to abortion was never enshrined into the founding documents of this nation.

If you really want to know, I could go along with the "right" to abort a child if it was limited to a very specific time period, perhaps up to the first trimester because I'm not sure when that fetus becomes a separate person, but when advocates refuse to acknowledge the life they're taking at any stage of the pregnancy, I can't support them and never will. It's not that i don't agree with the mothers "right", I just think it's cancelled by her child's "rights".

Thanks for asking.

It’s kind of funny Alan, all this chest beating about the second amendment. And what has all these firearms done for us as citizens. We’ve basically had our first and fourth amendment rights completely stripped from us without anyone so much as picking up an AR15 to protest. I challenge every gun toting American......explain to me how your gun has come in handy to beat back the oppression of the government. It hasn’t. Because the oppression isn’t defined by lead projectiles anymore. We are too busy slaughtering each other with semiautos to notice just how oppressed we are. The last people that tried to lift the boot was the Bundys and they got their ass handed to them. As long as they can sell weapon systems overseas and as long as Wayne of the NRA can make 5 million in salary a year.....All is well.

BTW, you haven’t answered.....why are we handicapping our teachers suggesting that they merely be allowed to arm themselves with a token pistol. Let’s give them some really military weapons with which to take out the terrorist. Otherwise, we are exercising our own little progressive gun control system, aren’t we?

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

BTW, you haven’t answered.....why are we handicapping our teachers suggesting that they merely be allowed to arm themselves with a token pistol. Let’s give them some really military weapons with which to take out the terrorist. Otherwise, we are exercising our own little progressive gun control system, aren’t we?

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I've never suggested we should limit anyone's ability to effectively defend themselves. You must be thinking of someone else.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I've never suggested we should limit anyone's ability to effectively defend themselves. You must be thinking of someone else.

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Why shouldn’t any student be able to test out of a prohibition to carry also? We could teach the necessary skills and have every one in the class armed by the end of the first semester.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Why shouldn’t any student be able to test out of a prohibition to carry also? We could teach the necessary skills and have every one in the class armed by the end of the first semester.

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We used to do just that. It hasn't been that long ago that some schools taught marksmanship and gun safety with students own weapons. Personally, I'm comfortable with restricting the ownership of weapons to the age of consent, mainly because we don't do a very good job of teaching responsibility anymore. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

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Originally Posted by Alan

I hate it when abortion comes up since the fetus is never considered to be a person. Plus, the "right" to abortion was never enshrined into the founding documents of this nation.

If you really want to know, I could go along with the "right" to abort a child if it was limited to a very specific time period, perhaps up to the first trimester because I'm not sure when that fetus becomes a separate person, but when advocates refuse to acknowledge the life they're taking at any stage of the pregnancy, I can't support them and never will. It's not that i don't agree with the mothers "right", I just think it's cancelled by her child's "rights".

Thanks for asking.

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interesting answer for a conservative. I wish there was never an abortion, but if the Supreme Court decides abortion is legal, or mentally people have a right to gun ownership or a gay young man has the right to marry his male partner, who am I to Say they cannot. The thing about our founding documents though is they were written in a different time. But women have sought abortions whether legal or not since the beginning of time. Just like gun control. Could the founding fathers ever have envisioned AR15’s being sold at big box store and paid for with credit cards? Or young men entering a school full of unarmed children and shooting as many as they can? All of it was totally not in their mind when our young nation was founded. The country is totally different now, for better and for worse.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

interesting answer for a conservative. I wish there was never an abortion, but if the Supreme Court decides abortion is legal, or mentally people have a right to gun ownership or a gay young man has the right to marry his male partner, who am I to Say they cannot.

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In the abortion issue, the Supreme Court simply stated that a woman's right to privacy regarding abortion must be balanced with the potentiality of life thereby eliminating a blanket prohibition. It seems we're getting farther and farther away from the balance required and you'd be hard pressed to have a politician or liberal admit that it's a necessary component. That's why we need more conservatives, to remind them. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alan

In the abortion issue, the Supreme Court simply stated that a woman's right to privacy regarding abortion must be balanced with the potentiality of life thereby eliminating a blanket prohibition. It seems we're getting farther and farther away from the balance required and you'd be hard pressed to have a politician or liberal admit that it's a necessary component. That's why we need more conservatives, to remind them. ;)

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So that's why states like texas require medically unnecessary things like ultrasounds and surgery level abortion facilities even thought they admit that the less fancy facilities in NM are perfectly sufficient? To protect the woman's right to privacy?

Personally I don't usually wade into the abortion issue because as a man, and even moreso, a middle aged gay man, it's not my life that will be forever influenced by an unintended pregnancy. I trust the woman making the decision to have a better idea than I do of what she needs to do. I might have a different view if the right to life crowd was concerned about life beyond birth, but from what I witness, they don't. If they did CHIP wouldn't have been something held hostage until the government shutdown, not to mention the idiocy currently going on around SNAP. It used to be that people on the left wanted to micromanage the lives of poor people. Now the right has taken that to a whole new level.

Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.

https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.

https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY

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I'm good with that and apologize for contributing to the distraction. this thread has been far better than I ever expected in terms of keeping kids alive. I try not to get enticed by shiny bobbles, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.

https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY

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no. Too bad if you donT like it. This is a discussion board and a discussion is underway. am trying to understand positions which I consider conflicting and confusing. I have learned so much by questioning people here on this forum. My friends are all well educated liberal women and sometimes getting an opposing view, especially in context of rights as a US Citizen is timely. Skip over or ignore comments you don’t like. These pages of comments have really brought forward views that I never would have considered because normal people taking to other normal people, without some news media with an agenda butting in, is very difficult to find. We are incredibly lucky to be able to get unfiltered. opinions from people with a totally different viewpoint from ours

But getting back back to the main topic, the shooting I have am interesting story. Yesterday a bunch of protestors went to Tallahassee to protest our very liberal gun laws. They were for a better background check system and a better reporting system (this guy Cruz was reported over and over to the local police and FBI). They want to raise the age to buy such weapons. Keeping guns out of people who like this guy, had public profiles saying he was going to shoot up the school. There was no mention of banning guns for law abiding citizens or taking them away.
you should see the editorial comments in the paper following a brief story about the protesters, of which many were retired teachers, having spent their lives in a classroom. The comments were Absolutely skewering them. Calling them pawns of Hillary and Soros, saying they were uninformed and more guns would have helped. Calling them pathetic losers, wussies, and some comments that teetered on being actual threats of violence. Saying someone with a small pistol could have easily taken out the shooter. If that were so the resource officer and first police on the scene would have rushed in. Comments full of hate. As soon as the shooting La Pierre was saying anyone calling for any type of gun control wants to abolish the second amendment. That is untrue of most people. They just want to stop the ridiculous madness.

Flowers, I agree, discussions that meander into topics other than the main one are often useful. And it is good that we have thoughtful people on both side of the aisle for these discussions.

Satire people..........satire.

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Satire people..........satire.

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ok, that too!

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Originally Posted by Williamsmith

Satire people..........satire.

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and here I thought I had a moment of temporary insanity. I watched a few minutes of President Bone Spurs draft dodger saying the officers who did not go into the school were disgraceful cowards. And that he would have rushed in without a gun. I think I went crazy.

Wow, after 11 days of a cruise with no news this thread is very interesting. Hearing the Orange One say he would have run in unarmed made me laugh so hard. He probably means he would have made one of his workers do it:)) I agree with you Flowers in so much of what you have said. A few years ago a local teacher here intervened without a weapon and of course he died. That is a true hero. BTW Trump now wants to eliminate aid for low income people to heat their homes many of which are seniors. I think that is one way to save $ is to freeze the seniors to death right before you cut Medicare and SS. Whenever, we take a cruise we decide to be ignorant of the news and never turn on the TV. It makes for a relaxing vacation.

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Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere

and here I thought I had a moment of temporary insanity. I watched a few minutes of President Bone Spurs draft dodger saying the officers who did not go into the school were disgraceful cowards. And that he would have rushed in without a gun. I think I went crazy.

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That would do it to you.

I see that the Governor of Rhode Island, Gina Raimondo, signed an executive order which directs all law enforcement in the state to use "all available legal steps" to remove firearms from people who have shown warning signs, including recently making threats of violence online or in person. The order also launches a campaign to educate the public about signs that could indicate that a person poses a threat.

Governor Raimondo remarked: "The heartbreaking shooting at Parkland has once again proven that if the federal government won't act, states need to do more to prevent the gun violence that has become far too common." She urged the state legislature to take swift action to pass comprehensive legislation on gun safety.

The governments of NY, NJ, MA, RI, DE and CT along with Puerto Rico have formed a new coalition of States for Gun Safety.

That is awesome!